OT: Bonds, Clemens, Sosa to be on HOF ballot

[z28jd]

My opinion on it is if you don't put in Clemens, then close the Hall for the entire steroid era. Because you're only guessing on everyone else too. I would put in the best from the era and leave out anyone who has failed since testing has come out, hard to punish a guy pre-testing era when owners were turning a blind-eye to it, yet at the same time rewarding them for it. Unless Derek Jeter or Barry Larkin or Randy Johnson is on this board, anyone who says they positively never used is just assuming. If you don't put in the best from the era(without a failed test ie Manny Ramirez) then don't put in anyone. Simple as that.

Another way to think about it is that the list of banned substances now is so big, there is no way you could assume anyone is not guilty of one of them at some point. More than half the stuff at GNC you could buy yourself, is off-limits to them. So while player X from that era could say he never did steroids or HGH, he very likely did something that is now banned so where do you draw the line?

[packs]

I don't think people are guessing Clemens took steroids though for the same reason I don't think saying Bonds took them is a guess or speculation. If you don't think he took them, he was probably your favorite player once upon a time. He cheated. I know it sucks but accept it rather than trying to say everyone cheated bcause Roger Clemens did.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

So what, let them in. They were THE best at their position, EVER! And that's what the HOF is about, the best of the best. None failed a test, and it's not like steroids made them HOF'ers. Bonds was already a monster at the plate 'pre' steroids and easily had a HOF career, and Clemens was nasty, you saw his rookie year.

Which is more detrimental for the game, a player for supposedly taking a drug compared to a player being a racist or beats there wife? I saw the latter. Bonds was good for baseball, and so were McGwire and Sosa, they revived the game with that magical summer of '98, people watched the game again because of them, they saved baseball.

It's funny how everyone gives a crap about ballplayer's getting caught and not allowing them in the Hall or whatever, but for NFL players, no one gives a damn for failed substance abuse and performance ehancing test failures. But I guarantee the large profile NFL players will get in the Hall who have gotten caught. I mean heck, Ray Lewis and Dante Stallworth killed a man, what was the punishment? Lewis a slap on the wrist, and Stallworth avoided jailtime or had a few weeks with other stipulations. And players get more punishment for taking a drug, that's funny.

That's all I will say on this as it is a never ending topic. But my stance is look past the character and what they did as a person, and focus on what they did on the field. Bonds, A-Rod etc were dumb to take drugs, they were easily going to be the best ever in the game or close to it without them.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

So what, let them in. They were THE best at their position, EVER! And that's what the HOF is about, the best of the best. None failed a test, and it's not like steroids made them HOF'ers. Bonds was already a monster at the plate 'pre' steroids and easily had a HOF career, and Clemens was nasty, you saw his rookie year.

Which is more detrimental for the game, a player for supposedly taking a drug compared to a player being a racist or beats there wife? I saw the latter. Bonds was good for baseball, and so were McGwire and Sosa, they revived the game with that magical summer of '98, people watched the game again because of them, they saved baseball.

It's funny how everyone gives a crap about ballplayer's getting caught and not allowing them in the Hall or whatever, but for NFL players, no one gives a damn for failed substance abuse and performance ehancing test failures. But I guarantee the large profile NFL players will get in the Hall who have gotten caught. I mean heck, Ray Lewis and Dante Stallworth killed a man, what was the punishment? Lewis a slap on the wrist, and Stallworth avoided jailtime or had a few weeks with other stipulations. And players get more punishment for taking a drug, that's funny.

That's all I will say on this as it is a never ending topic. But my stance is look past the character and what they did as a person, and focus on what they did on the field. Bonds, A-Rod etc were dumb to take drugs, they were easily going to be the best ever in the game or close to it without them.

Really? Bonds was the best at his position...ever? How many home runs could Ruth have hit on steroids? Have you seen McGwire since the 'roids wore off?

And Clemens? I would argue for Walter Johnson, and certainly over a non-juiced version of Clemens.

Yeah, 'funny' is right.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Really? Bonds was the best at his position...ever? How many home runs could Ruth have hit on steroids? Have you seen McGwire since the 'roids wore off?

And Clemens? I would argue for Walter Johnson, and certainly over a non-juiced version of Clemens.

Yeah, 'funny' is right.

Have you seen the level of competition Ruth played with vs Bonds? Do you think Ruth and his fat a$$ could have come close to match the numbers put up then? Lets see, far inferior pitching and defense for Ruth. Let's see here, Ruth has more triples than SB's, how the hell is that possible...worse defense, that's how. Ruth had almost more triples in one season than Bonds did in his career, explain that.

Have you seen McGwire before he juiced, that rookie season, he was a twig.

Let's see, and in regards to Johnson vs Clemens, Clemens has a better K/9, about even H/9, fairly even BB/9, 1,000k+ more in SO's, over 1,000 less innings pitched, if Clemens were to have thrown that many innings, he would have easily had more wins.

Yeah, 'funny' is right.

[EvilKing00]

Nothing against RUTH hes the king - but he didnt have to face Blacks, domonicans, japanese etc. There also wasnt a few crazy pitches that there are now.

Look - IMO ruth is the best all time but bonds was the best in my time.

If you just compair numbers they are close. Damn bonds has over 500 SB, all his numbers are sick.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

Nothing against RUTH hes the king - but he didnt have to face Blacks, domonicans, japanese etc. There also wasnt a few crazy pitches that there are now.

Look - IMO ruth is the best all time but bonds was the best in my time.

If you just compair numbers they are close. Damn bonds has over 500 SB, all his numbers are sick.

+1 very different era's, but if Ruth were to play now, good luck holding Bonds' jock-strap. He would need a significant diet etc to be able to play with these athletes today.

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

Nothing against RUTH hes the king - but he didnt have to face Blacks, domonicans, japanese etc. There also wasnt a few crazy pitches that there are now.

Look - IMO ruth is the best all time but bonds was the best in my time.

If you just compare numbers they are close. Damn bonds has over 500 SB, all his numbers are sick.

The argument regarding Blacks, Dominicans, Japanese, etc. is bogus. Ruth played in a time where the only sports that could come close to rivaling baseball in popularity were boxing and horse racing. So baseball constituted the athletic elite of the times and thus incorporated the best athletes, albeit within the White population.

Bonds et al played in a time when a huge proportion of elite athletic talent was and is siphoned off by football and basketball. So think of all of the great athletes that they never had to face.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Have you seen the level of competition Ruth played with vs Bonds? Do you think Ruth and his fat a$$ could have come close to match the numbers put up then? Lets see, far inferior pitching and defense for Ruth. Let's see here, Ruth has more triples than SB's, how the hell is that possible...worse defense, that's how. Ruth had almost more triples in one season than Bonds did in his career, explain that.

Have you seen McGwire before he juiced, that rookie season, he was a twig.

Let's see, and in regards to Johnson vs Clemens, Clemens has a better K/9, about even H/9, fairly even BB/9, 1,000k+ more in SO's, over 1,000 less innings pitched, if Clemens were to have thrown that many innings, he would have easily had more wins.

Yeah, 'funny' is right.

Damn. I'll leave you to stew in your own juices.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by z28jd

My opinion on it is if you don't put in Clemens, then close the Hall for the entire steroid era.

I assumed Clemens was the guy least deserving to go in. At least the others had HOF-like careers before PEDs. Clemens was 50-49 and going nowhere.

Ignore this post. I have stats mixed up.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

I assumed Clemens was the guy least deserving to go in. At least the others had HOF-like careers before PEDs. Clemens was 50-49 and going nowhere.

Huh???
He had won three cy youngs by 1997

[egbeachley]

nevermind. I must have someone else's statistics mixed up. Need to add a correction to my other post.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

nevermind. I must have someone else's statistics mixed up. Need to add a correction to my other post.

i think what you are thinking of is that in his last four years before he was traded to toronto and allegedly started using, he was 50-49 but he was hugely successful before that

[steve B]

A bit of comment about a few points.

Ruth would be fine today. The "overweight" Ruth is partly body type, partly from the late career photos.
His huge count of triples compared to steals is from a couple things.
1) Huge ballparks. A drive to center in the polo grounds probably wasn't going out. (Although Ruth hit at least one out there around 460ft, out of any modern park)
2)He could actually run. Especially earlier.
3) Who would try stealing with Gherig at bat?
4) Stealing is more of a mental exercise than physical. Sure, speed helps a lot, but it all works off the pitchers time to the plate and how they watch the runner. I don't know how they played Ruth. If he was watched closely there may have been little opportunity to steal as well as reduced need.

Ruths pitching ability was also excellent.

And the argument that he wasn't facing ALL the best players could be countered by the one saying he also didn't face players from 15+ teams, only 8. figuring a modern 5 man rotation that's 40 pitchers who would be minor leaguers without expansion. More if you figure 1920's teams didn't have 5 man rotatons or closers or middle relievers. Of course the counter then is that modern players are often facing fresh pitchers instead of a guy throwing pitch number 257....Endless.

The other big sport of the 20's was 6-day bike racing. the top riders earned more than Ruth. 500-1000 a day, on top of the contract, plus prizes. Chicago was a favorite town since Capone was a huge fan and spent many nights giving out prizes for sprints every few laps $100 here, $500 there....

Bonds never tested positive. True. Maybe. I believe he stopped once the testing program began. It's also likely that the "cream" and "clear" were new stuff there wasn't a test for. Lance also "never tested positive" except for that one time he blamed the butt ointment, and that time he was let slide, and that other time Nike "took care of it"
Testing in Baseball began in 06, and Bonds had a very typical year lost to injury in 05. A very common thing for players stopping steroids.
So I'm not buying that part.

Sadly, I think if he'd stayed clean and been a bit nicer as a person he'd still have the career HR record, He just would have gotten it a couple years later. And may have stuck around a couple more.

Steve B

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

Sadly, I think if he'd stayed clean and been a bit nicer as a person he'd still have the career HR record, He just would have gotten it a couple years later. And may have stuck around a couple more.

Steve B

Steve, are just trying to placate the pro-Barry guys? Have you seen pictures of what he looked like in his pre-steroid days?

[howard38]

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