OT: Bonds, Clemens, Sosa to be on HOF ballot

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

So what, let them in. They were THE best at their position, EVER! And that's what the HOF is about, the best of the best. None failed a test, and it's not like steroids made them HOF'ers. Bonds was already a monster at the plate 'pre' steroids and easily had a HOF career, and Clemens was nasty, you saw his rookie year.

Which is more detrimental for the game, a player for supposedly taking a drug compared to a player being a racist or beats there wife? I saw the latter. Bonds was good for baseball, and so were McGwire and Sosa, they revived the game with that magical summer of '98, people watched the game again because of them, they saved baseball.

It's funny how everyone gives a crap about ballplayer's getting caught and not allowing them in the Hall or whatever, but for NFL players, no one gives a damn for failed substance abuse and performance ehancing test failures. But I guarantee the large profile NFL players will get in the Hall who have gotten caught. I mean heck, Ray Lewis and Dante Stallworth killed a man, what was the punishment? Lewis a slap on the wrist, and Stallworth avoided jailtime or had a few weeks with other stipulations. And players get more punishment for taking a drug, that's funny.

That's all I will say on this as it is a never ending topic. But my stance is look past the character and what they did as a person, and focus on what they did on the field. Bonds, A-Rod etc were dumb to take drugs, they were easily going to be the best ever in the game or close to it without them.

Really? Bonds was the best at his position...ever? How many home runs could Ruth have hit on steroids? Have you seen McGwire since the 'roids wore off?

And Clemens? I would argue for Walter Johnson, and certainly over a non-juiced version of Clemens.

Yeah, 'funny' is right.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Really? Bonds was the best at his position...ever? How many home runs could Ruth have hit on steroids? Have you seen McGwire since the 'roids wore off?

And Clemens? I would argue for Walter Johnson, and certainly over a non-juiced version of Clemens.

Yeah, 'funny' is right.

Have you seen the level of competition Ruth played with vs Bonds? Do you think Ruth and his fat a$$ could have come close to match the numbers put up then? Lets see, far inferior pitching and defense for Ruth. Let's see here, Ruth has more triples than SB's, how the hell is that possible...worse defense, that's how. Ruth had almost more triples in one season than Bonds did in his career, explain that.

Have you seen McGwire before he juiced, that rookie season, he was a twig.

Let's see, and in regards to Johnson vs Clemens, Clemens has a better K/9, about even H/9, fairly even BB/9, 1,000k+ more in SO's, over 1,000 less innings pitched, if Clemens were to have thrown that many innings, he would have easily had more wins.

Yeah, 'funny' is right.

[EvilKing00]

Nothing against RUTH hes the king - but he didnt have to face Blacks, domonicans, japanese etc. There also wasnt a few crazy pitches that there are now.

Look - IMO ruth is the best all time but bonds was the best in my time.

If you just compair numbers they are close. Damn bonds has over 500 SB, all his numbers are sick.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

Nothing against RUTH hes the king - but he didnt have to face Blacks, domonicans, japanese etc. There also wasnt a few crazy pitches that there are now.

Look - IMO ruth is the best all time but bonds was the best in my time.

If you just compair numbers they are close. Damn bonds has over 500 SB, all his numbers are sick.

+1 very different era's, but if Ruth were to play now, good luck holding Bonds' jock-strap. He would need a significant diet etc to be able to play with these athletes today.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

He would need a significant diet etc to be able to play with these athletes today.

Yeah, as did Bonds. Unfortunately, his 'diet' was illegal.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Yeah, as did Bonds. Unfortunately, his 'diet' was illegal.

It wasn't in the game of baseball at that time, and remember, he never tested positive for MLB drug testing.

[EvilKing00]

Bonds was the most feered hitter i have ever seen. With numbers to prrove it (forget the HR) with all the walks

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

It wasn't in the game of baseball, and remember, he never tested positive for MLB drug testing.

You have a good point there. I'll have to eat a little crow, as I don't believe we can make assumptions about whether or not someone did drugs. But I won't blame the HOF voters if they choose to make that assumption. It's kind of like Judge Landis dealing with Joe Jackson outside the law, but by his own laws of baseball.

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

Nothing against RUTH hes the king - but he didnt have to face Blacks, domonicans, japanese etc. There also wasnt a few crazy pitches that there are now.

Look - IMO ruth is the best all time but bonds was the best in my time.

If you just compare numbers they are close. Damn bonds has over 500 SB, all his numbers are sick.

The argument regarding Blacks, Dominicans, Japanese, etc. is bogus. Ruth played in a time where the only sports that could come close to rivaling baseball in popularity were boxing and horse racing. So baseball constituted the athletic elite of the times and thus incorporated the best athletes, albeit within the White population.

Bonds et al played in a time when a huge proportion of elite athletic talent was and is siphoned off by football and basketball. So think of all of the great athletes that they never had to face.

[71buc]

Originally Posted by kcohen

The argument regarding Blacks, Dominicans, Japanese, etc. is bogus. Ruth played in a time where the only sports that could come close to rivaling baseball in popularity were boxing and horse racing. So baseball constituted the athletic elite of the times and thus incorporated the best athletes, albeit within the White population.

Bonds et al played in a time when a huge proportion of elite athletic talent was and is siphoned off by football and basketball. So think of all of the great athletes that they never had to face.

Calmarse! I totally disagree. Ruth played with the best who were allowed to play during his time. Even considering that a “huge portion of elite athletic talent was and is siphoned off by football and basketball”, todays athletes would physically dominate Ruth and his power hitting peers. Below are the names and physical attributes of some of the greatest power hitter’s pre 1940. Next to them I listed a contemporary middle infielder of similar size who is Latin American and of color.

Lou Gehrig 6ft 200 lbs - Elvis Andrus 6’ 200
Babe ruth 6’2” 215 - Hanely Ramierez 6’2” 230
Jimmie Foxx 6’ 195 - Roberto Alomar 6’ 184
Mel Ott 5’9” 170 - Omar Vizquel 5’9” 180

I love these discussions as they separate baseball from other sports.

[barrysloate]

Is there a way for this thread and the one in watercooler to be merged? We're having them same discussion over there.

[EvilKing00]

yes an admin OR MOD of the forum can merge them together, good idea. leon would be an admin, im not sure if anyone else was given admin or mod access. Maybe PM him and offer your suggestion.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by 71buc

Calmarse! I totally disagree. Ruth played with the best who were allowed to play during his time. Even considering that a “huge portion of elite athletic talent was and is siphoned off by football and basketball”, todays athletes would physically dominate Ruth and his power hitting peers. Below are the names and physical attributes of some of the greatest power hitter’s pre 1940. Next to them I listed a contemporary middle infielder of similar size who is Latin American and of color.

Lou Gehrig 6ft 200 lbs - Elvis Andrus 6’ 200
Babe ruth 6’2” 215 - Hanely Ramierez 6’2” 230
Jimmie Foxx 6’ 195 - Roberto Alomar 6’ 184
Mel Ott 5’9” 170 - Omar Vizquel 5’9” 180

I love these discussions as they separate baseball from other sports.

While I agree, I disagree with your examples. Those guys couldn't even touch the HOF'ers, but I see where you're going with your point and I agree.

[yanks12025]

I don't believe when people say bonds was a hall of famer before he started taking steriods.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

I don't believe when people say bonds was a hall of famer before he started taking steriods.

What is your justification? His pre-roid MVP's weren't good enough, or his gaudy stats? Come on.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Have you seen the level of competition Ruth played with vs Bonds? Do you think Ruth and his fat a$$ could have come close to match the numbers put up then? Lets see, far inferior pitching and defense for Ruth. Let's see here, Ruth has more triples than SB's, how the hell is that possible...worse defense, that's how. Ruth had almost more triples in one season than Bonds did in his career, explain that.

Have you seen McGwire before he juiced, that rookie season, he was a twig.

Let's see, and in regards to Johnson vs Clemens, Clemens has a better K/9, about even H/9, fairly even BB/9, 1,000k+ more in SO's, over 1,000 less innings pitched, if Clemens were to have thrown that many innings, he would have easily had more wins.

Yeah, 'funny' is right.

Damn. I'll leave you to stew in your own juices.