Hall of Fame Veterans Committee List

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by bender07

Jim - How tough is Dahlen?

FWIW, I think O'Day, Mullane and White should get in.

As someone mentioned above its entirely possible NO ONE from the list will be inducted.

In answer to your question : Dahlen is tough but not impossible , not inexpensive but not extraordinary expensive either.
_____________________________
Buying and Selling Vintage Autographs for over 3 decades
specializing in 19th century and dead ball era
jim@stinsonsports.com

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Don't know Marion would get in, he was only a good fielder, that's it. No clue as to how or why he won MVP with those atrocious numbers.

[prewarsports]

I think sometimes people forget that defense has traditionally been more important than offense in the game of Baseball's history. According to superstar players from an 1894 survey NED WILLIAMSON was the greatest player to ever play the game up to that point. 100% because of his defense. There are lots of defensive specialist in the hall and now we look at them all and think they were bad choices but its because defense was looked upon as much more important that offense throughout the 1950's. Modern stats and offensive obsession are a modern thing and the only person in the last 30 years who has overcome that is Ozzie Smith.

I would have no problem with Marion, or most of those guys. Mullane is not getting in (which is sad) because he was supposedly a racist (who wasn't racist in 19th century America i'd like to know) and the committe is specifically instructed to look into their character as a requirement.

I bet they vote in some insignificant guy like Ruppert or Breaden and nobody cares as a result.

Rhys

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

I think sometimes people forget that defense has traditionally been more important than offense in the game of Baseball's history. According to superstar players from an 1894 survey NED WILLIAMSON was the greatest player to ever play the game up to that point. 100% because of his defense. There are lots of defensive specialist in the hall and now we look at them all and think they were bad choices but its because defense was looked upon as much more important that offense throughout the 1950's. Modern stats and offensive obsession are a modern thing and the only person in the last 30 years who has overcome that is Ozzie Smith.

I would have no problem with Marion, or most of those guys. Mullane is not getting in (which is sad) because he was supposedly a racist (who wasn't racist in 19th century America i'd like to know) and the committe is specifically instructed to look into their character as a requirement.

I bet they vote in some insignificant guy like Ruppert or Breaden and nobody cares as a result.

Rhys

Ozzie Smith and Mazeroski.

Ken

[HexsHeroes]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Ozzie Smith and Mazeroski.

Ken

Don't think so.

And I'd have to suspect that Mike Schmidt's defensive prowlness + power hitting stats helped to overlook his .267 career batting average.

[mr2686]

Finally some love for Wes Parker. Jim, Wes was my favorite player as a kid and his defense was not lost on us L.A. Dodger fans. I believe besides his 6 gold gloves he also won 2 Diamond gloves over in Japan.
There have been some fantastic firstbaseman that came after him, so that's saying a lot that he made the all time team.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by HexsHeroes

Don't think so.

And I'd have to suspect that Mike Schmidt's defensive prowlness + power hitting stats helped to overlook his .267 career batting average.

Hitting over 500 HR's in a career and no PED's in sight doesn't hurt much either!

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Don't know Marion would get in, he was only a good fielder, that's it. No clue as to how or why he won MVP with those atrocious numbers.

That is a little like saying I don't know why Dick Butkus ever made the Football Hall of Fame he was only a good defensive player

I don't know why it took the Hall of Fame so long to recognize that Bill Mazeroski was the greatest defensive 2nd baseman of all time or Wes Parker STILL is not in the Hall of Fame even though he is considered the greatest defensive first baseman of the century
_________________________
Buying and Selling Vintage Autographs for over three decades
Specializing in 19th Century and dead ball era autographs
jim@stinsonsports.com

[JimStinson]

On August 21, 2007, Wes Parker was named to the Major League Baseball All-time Gold Glove Team, and is the only eligible member of the team who is not in the Baseball Hall of Fame.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

That is a little like saying I don't know why Dick Butkus ever made the Football Hall of Fame he was only a good defensive player

I don't know why it took the Hall of Fame so long to recognize that Bill Mazeroski was the greatest defensive 2nd baseman of all time or Wes Parker STILL is not in the Hall of Fame even though he is considered the greatest defensive first baseman of the century
_________________________
Buying and Selling Vintage Autographs for over three decades
Specializing in 19th Century and dead ball era autographs
jim@stinsonsports.com

Still, others put up gawdy offensive numbers while also maintaining superior defensive value in '44. Not saying that defense isn't an important factor, he just really did not help the team out offensively as much would want from a HOF'er, didn't score many runs, his OBP is horrible.

IMHO I believe that a HOF'er shouldn't get in on being the greatest in one facet of the game outside of a pitcher, like Marion for JUST his defense (potential candidate). For position players you should be able to do it all, that's what truly makes you THE best, the five tools, or close to it. You need to be able to maintain a great average, drive in runs and well as score runs, smart on the basepaths even if you don't have the steals numbers, patient at the plate and draw your walks to get on base, have great range, good reads/jumps, strong arm, and high baseball IQ. If you are an offensive monster, but have negative defensive value and actually could possibly hurt the team more than help, how should you be a HOF'er? I believe that's what makes you a HOF'er. I mean you can be unreal in one facet, but at least be average in the others.

[bender07]

But it's waaaaay more likely a guy will get in based on great offensive talent versus great defensive talent. Ted Williams wasn't a great defensive player by any means nor was he great baserunner. He simply could hit the s*** out of the ball and got in based on that.

There were very few guys that exiled on both sides of the 'ball.'

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by bender07

But it's waaaaay more likely a guy will get in based on great offensive talent versus great defensive talent. Ted Williams wasn't a great defensive player by any means nor was he great baserunner. He simply could hit the s*** out of the ball and got in based on that.

There were very few guys that exiled on both sides of the 'ball.'

Good point, Williams was an awful fielder but if he was on my team I wouldn't care WHAT he did in the outfield between innings...lol, Take a nap get a massage , eat a sandwich. Whatever he did would be fine with me. Heck I would have set up a picnic table and Bar-B-Q pit in the outfield if he wanted it. Plus he had Dom who could (and did play his and Ted's position)

On that same note I used to watch Reggie Jackson play every day when he was with the Yankees and EVERY FLY BALL WAS AN ADVENTURE ! Worst outfielder I ever saw in my life did far more harm than good with his defensive "skills" and he made it in the HOF on what ? First ballot ?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Good point, Williams was an awful fielder but if he was on my team I wouldn't care WHAT he did in the outfield between innings...lol, Take a nap get a massage , eat a sandwich. Whatever he did would be fine with me. Heck I would have set up a picnic table and Bar-B-Q pit in the outfield if he wanted it. Plus he had Dom who could (and did play his and Ted's position)

On that same note I used to watch Reggie Jackson play every day when he was with the Yankees and EVERY FLY BALL WAS AN ADVENTURE ! Worst outfielder I ever saw in my life did far more harm than good with his defensive "skills" and he made it in the HOF on what ? First ballot ?

Reminds me of Manny Ramirez lol

[bender07]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

That is a little like saying I don't know why Dick Butkus ever made the Football Hall of Fame he was only a good defensive player

Apples and oranges. Marion's position required him to play offense while Butkus' did not.

I think the lack of advanced, reliable defensive metrics really hurts the defense only players. It seems that it's often anecdotal on how great these guys were. I often would hear that "Maz was quickest to turn a double play!" No way to prove that and without that WS HR, I don't think Maz would have had a shot to get in.

I used to be a HOF snob and wanted tight requirements on who gets in but I've relented recently and figure the more the merrier. The current course has been set by the old Veterans Committee's of Frank Frisch and there's no way to clean up past 'wrongs' (Travis Jackson!). Let'em all in!