I was the victim of shill bidding on ebay!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

if you place a snipe with 5 seconds to go, it's going to be a tad hard for someone to run you up, top you, and retract.

Explain all of the retractions then. Who knows why but it's happening. I can only surmise that the GREAT VOLUME of retractions is not for good and legitimate reasons. Either that or all of these bidders are really stupid. (and that is not the case, imo)

BTW, I believe some of these retractions are to see how high the max bids are at...and once found out the bidder retracts the bid.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Leon, sorry if I wasn't clear, my point is that if you bid only by snipe, they can't do it to you.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Leon, sorry if I wasn't clear, my point is that if you bid only by snipe, they can't do it to you.

I understand that Peter. If I really want a card on ebay I snipe close to 100% of the time. But the fact remains that bidders are getting run up and then bids are retracted. That is not good. Ask Wonka how he felt the other night.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I understand that Peter. If I really want a card on ebay I snipe close to 100% of the time. But the fact remains that bidders are getting run up and then bids are retracted. That is not good. Ask Wonka how he felt the other night.

If that's the state of the world, one has to be proactive. Use a sniping service. It's a much easier fix than confronting sellers who aren't going to do anything about it or confronting ebay who isn't going to do anything about it.

Ebay is useless. The other night I asked a guy why, if a card (modern but a condition sensitive one) was as nice as the one he had pictured, he hadn't graded it. He wrote back that it was a stock photo. I called ebay and informed them, and of course they could see his message to me. They did nothing.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If that's the state of the world, one has to be proactive. Use a sniping service. It's a much easier fix than confronting sellers who aren't going to do anything about it or confronting ebay who isn't going to do anything about it.

Ebay is useless. The other night I asked a guy why, if a card (modern but a condition sensitive one) was as nice as the one he had pictured, he hadn't graded it. He wrote back that it was a stock photo. I called ebay and informed them, and of course they could see his message to me. They did nothing.

If I make a mistake and leave my keys in my car I don't expect it to be stolen. Of course, as stated, I am proactive and snipe all of the time. Others don't use a sniping service so they should be defrauded? Sweet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Leon you are misstaing my position and you know it. I am not saying it's OK for anyone to defraud anyone. I am saying that the reality is that it's going to happen on ebay and there isn't much that can be done to stop it, but that the good news is that from the buyer's perspective it is easy enough to avoid being defrauded.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Leon you are misstaing my position and you know it. I am not saying it's OK for anyone to defraud anyone. I am saying that the reality is that it's going to happen on ebay and there isn't much that can be done to stop it, but that the good news is that from the buyer's perspective it is easy enough to avoid being defrauded.

I know Peter .....I was just being a forum member the way I get it. It's sort of fun feeding the monkeys, so to say. Now I know why people rag on me all of the time...it's amusing. I was just messing with ya'.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Lol.

[smtjoy]

The scary thing to me is knowing how and why the retractions are used, then consider his 1200 other bids to the same sellers this month, ..........ouch

[atx840]

a***x( 146) $114.50
****g( 1166) $112.00
3***b( 310) $88.57
m***f( 908) $72.00
s***s( 272) $71.22
m***f( 908) $68.00
s***s( 272) $68.00
l***l( 465) $64.50
m***f( 908) $63.00
e***s( 6669) $60.00
w***d( 154) $58.58
a***h( 496) $46.00
a***h( 496) $41.00
s***s( 272) $28.88
b***b( 7412) $22.00
7***i( 1225) $16.00
s***s( 272) $12.88
s***s( 272) $8.22
****g( 1166) $4.05

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Leon

No shi*. That is what we are talking about. It is possibly the consignor or a friend/associate of a consignor. And the fact that, it seems, some sellers overlook these kinds of shenanigans is what is alarming, or actually, that they happen at all. I am not saying it's the sellers fault to start with. No one can control bids, for the most part. (well, sort of)

I know that's what you guys were talking about. I was being an a$$. We all have to be careful when buying from eBay consignment sellers. I bought a couple cards from Probstein lately and was very careful with how I bid.

Not every buyer on eBay has a set price they plan on. When I was new to eBay I based my bid on how the item was doing on the last day, I didn't know any better and didn't consider much about patience and paying the right amount. Most of all, I didn't consider that someone could be shilling... I was new to auctions.

I don't care if all shill bids happen in first hour hour, it's still shilling.
Probstein can't watch every bid. But I think he'd know when he's sending the card and consignors check to the same address... Just sayin'... I'm sure it happens.

[howard38]

/

[peterose4hof]

What other large Ebay sellers might (allegedly) fit into this debate besides Probstein? I know the name BigBoydSportscards3 has come up a lot. Anyone else?

[seablaster]

Originally Posted by howard38

Even with a snipe a buyer can end up paying more because of a shiller as long as there are other bidders that are not using a service. If an underbidder's gets shilled to his max bid then someone who won with a snipe likely paid more than he would or should have.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here.

It doesn't matter if the underbidder gets shilled to their maximum because their maximum still would have been exceeded by the winning bidder anyway.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by seablaster

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here.

It doesn't matter if the underbidder gets shilled to their maximum because their maximum still would have been exceeded by the winning bidder anyway.

I believe the point is Why should you be happy with paying the maximum? Haven't you ever been to a live auction? If my *max* on an item is $500, I don't scream out "$500!". The bids increment, and depending on who's there, I may be the winner at $450. Or $100. That is what an auction is. If you were shilled up to your max bid, someone stole your money, just as sure as if they swiped it from your wallet.

[HRBAKER]

If the underbids that you "outsnipe" have been driven up prior by a shill doesn't it still affect the final price you pay in a negative way?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

If the underbids that you "outsnipe" have been driven up prior by a shill doesn't it still affect the final price you pay in a negative way?

Not always.

If I place a snipe for say $100 set for 5 seconds from the item ending, and you have a max of $80 that you bid 3 days before I'll still win for one increment over $80 even if someone shills you to exactly $80. In that sort of scenario there's essentially no difference shilled or unshilled. (The shilling still happened, and was still wrong, but had no effect on the final price.)

It could affect the final price if for instance I have the same snipe for $100 you bid $80 two days earlier and the shiller bids say $85. In that case yes, shilling happened and affected the final price for the buyer.

It might also happen if I'm basing my bid on the current bids- In other words a more competetive bidding method
Sensible bidding =You figure a price you'd pay for the card based on the card itself, bid that price and no higher.
Competetive bidding= Figure that since it;s already $80 and I want it so I'll bid $100 even though $80 is retail or above.

The first combined with sniping limits the potential for shilling.
The second leaves a lot of room for the shiller to work.

Steve B

[HRBAKER]

Steve,

If the opener is $4.99 and a legitimate bidder puts a proxy bid in of $65 and is the only legitimate bidder but is driven to say $50+ by a series of "shill" bids and then I snipe and win it for say $55 - I would say my price was adversely affected by a shill even though I sniped.

Extreme example I know.

[howard38]

.

[seablaster]

Steve is correct.

In the original scenario that Howard presented, both the winning bidder and the underbidder were legitimate bidders. If the underbidder had a maximum bid of say $500, it doesn't matter if a shiller bids him up to that amount IF another legitimate bidder comes in with a bid greater than $500.

I by no means think shilling or safety bids are acceptable. What I would like to know is what we could do in regard to these bid retractors. No one can give a reasonable explanation for 40 bid retractions in 6 months. Is there any recourse through eBay or do they really just not care?

[HRBAKER]

Yep,
That's right now thinking about it.
The final price would be one increment above the high of the "other" legitimate bidder.

[seablaster]

Originally Posted by howard38

If the underbidder doesn't know there is a sniper and no one is shilling he might stop his bid at say $10 even though he's willing to go higher if necessary. If he is shilled it then becomes necessary to keep bidding if he wants to win and therefore bids as high as $20. If a snipe has been set at $21 and no one else bids then the sniper has paid about $10 more than he should have.

I see where you are coming from Howard. I guess at this point I am working under the assumption that most bidders are savvy and experienced; they know their maximum bid well in advance of the auction end.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Steve,

If the opener is $4.99 and a legitimate bidder puts a proxy bid in of $65 and is the only legitimate bidder but is driven to say $50+ by a series of "shill" bids and then I snipe and win it for say $55 - I would say my price was adversely affected by a shill even though I sniped.

Extreme example I know.

How do you win it for 55 if another bidder has a 65 max?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How do you win it for 55 if another bidder has a 65 max?

That's easy Peter. According to the Shill Bidder's Handbook, Chapter 5, Paragraph 6, it states, "If your shill bid wins, send the second highest bidder 'a second chance offer' and use the excuse that the winning bidder just died, fell into a terminal coma or his account was hacked, or some other lame excuse. If the second bidder declines, re-list the item with an opening bid for the same amount the second highest bidder placed his bid in the previous auction."

[celoknob]

Originally Posted by seablaster

Is there any recourse through eBay or do they really just not care?

No, they really do not care. Obviously, if they were really interested in the intregrity of their auctions there is no way they would allow someone with 40 retractions to continue.

I was really surprised when I first realized this about a year ago but have now accepted that this type of corruption is part of ebay. Fortunately I feel it has only affected a few percent of my auctions, buying or selling. Still, it makes ebay less fun when you know avoidable corruption is an accepted part of the system.

[Peter_Spaeth]

They don't care. I went through this with them when carterscards was blatantly using a one feedback shill to run up his cards. The guy on the phone agreed with me that it was obvious, and promised to do something about it, but never did.

[smtjoy]

Originally Posted by peterose4hof

What other large Ebay sellers might (allegedly) fit into this debate besides Probstein? I know the name BigBoydSportscards3 has come up a lot. Anyone else?

I keep an eye on all of them, I like to check VCP prior to bidding, you would be surprised how many times the same item is for sale again from the same consignor or another consignor (like it was last sold by Probstein123 and now its for auction with PWCC), big red flags and I avoid bidding. The thing about the consignors is they do provide a good service for those wanting to sell with little to no experience or those just not wanting to deal with it and a lot of them are honest and do not shill their auctions.

But the BIG issue imo is its the perfect cover for any dishonest seller and if most of the consignors turn a blind eye when a consignee wins their own item, rumor has it some just charge their fee and relist or return (as long as its a client sending lots of cards you get a pass).

Also I check the bidding after I do win something from one of them and I look for the bidding % and the retractions is a huge sign something funky is going on. Its really cut down on my bidding on ebay for over a year now, sad but right now I think I am getting better deals as a buyer thru AH's then consignors sales on ebay. I do think the feds have had an effect on the AH's and they are all for the most part playing it safe.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Steve,

If the opener is $4.99 and a legitimate bidder puts a proxy bid in of $65 and is the only legitimate bidder but is driven to say $50+ by a series of "shill" bids and then I snipe and win it for say $55 - I would say my price was adversely affected by a shill even though I sniped.

Extreme example I know.

That's not how the proxy bid works. If a legit bidder places a $65 proxy you can't win it for $55. The bider who bid $65 would win for 55+one increment.

Steve B

[HRBAKER]

Steve,
See post #71, I corrected myself. You are right.
Thanks, Jeff

[steve B]

I've been trying to think of a way a large volume seller could monitor their auctions or proactively discourage shilling without resorting to measures that would turn off nearly all their consignors.

Automating a system to catch the obvious ones afterward isn't hard. And should probably be done. Not much in prevention, but at 10K auctions a month it's entirely possible that the person writing the checks and the person shipping the item aren't the same person. And probably aren't checking for problems.

I think that they might discourage some of the more blatant shills by stating the ebay name of the consignor if there is one. That would eliminate the obvious since the person wouldn't want to shill if the info was plainly available.

Someone more subtle would probably be hard to catch. It's a pretty trivial thing to ask a friend to bid on an item. I've never sone it as a shill, but I have had friends snipe stuff for me while I was on vacation, and have bought stuff for a friend who has a bad enough relationship with one seller that if he bids the seller pulls the item or makes up a reason not to ship it.

I just can't think of any way to track that.

I've also had at least one experience where it really looked like shilling. Nearly unique item, I was the underbidder and got a second chance offer within 5 minutes of the end. The winner had less than 20 feedback and 100% with that seller. I passed on the second chance offer and eventually won the second of the two items which was actually nicer for less about a month later. (1948 US olympic cycling team jersey - race worn, and from the son of the racer who himself raced in 64)

I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it. But then, most of my purchases are under $100, usually way under. And often under $10. Not much there for a shiller.

Steve B

[atx840]

This guy sure has a broad interest in bb cards. Recent bidding activity by randomly checking Probstein auctions

2012 Bowman Chrome Prospects Superfractor Joc Pederson RC AUTO 1/1 BGS 9.5 w/ 10
1933 Goudey #154 Jimmy Foxx Philadelphia Athletics HOF SGC 80 EX-NM 6
1969 Topps #533 Nolan Ryan Mets HOF PSA 8 NM-MT
2009 Upper Deck Goodwin Champions Baseball Hobby Box Factory Sealed
1956 Topps Gray Back #106 Joe Astroth Kansas City Athletics PSA 8 NM-MT
T206 Newt Randall Milwaukee Polar Bear RARE Back BVG 6 EX-MT
1955 Red Man #NL7 Willie Mays HOF New York Giants BVG 8 NM-MT POP 1 , LOW POP
1973 Topps #220 Nolan Ryan California Angel HOF PSA 8 NM-MT OC