A possible solution for the PSA 8 T206 Wagner?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

The bigger issue, though, has nothing to do with what the Wagner would sell for if it is reholdered. As Barry noted, this Wagner has been the signature card of the hobby. Its currrent grade well symbolizes the fraud inherent iin our hobby. It's hypocrtitcal to urge the feds to bring indictments and act to clean up the hobby if the hobbyists themselves do not do their part. Anything other than insisting that this card be reholdered to reflect what in fact it is and putting pressure on all involved to see that to fruition would only bring more justified scorn on the hobby.

This point gets to the gist of my original thought. I think a case could easily be made that, if this is proven out, the card would technically have been cut from a sheet and still be the nicest looking one in the hobby. That is why only adding the word (Hand Cut) to the label would make it technically correct. There really is no denying it, as much as everyone wants to give their opinion, which is great, the card would be labeled correctly and that procedure might not diminish the awe of the card. If that can't, or won't be done, then only an AUT grade should be on the label. After reading all of these thoughts I still haven't changed my original premise yet. It looks like there are some others who feel this way too.

[barrysloate]

Hi Leon- while I always respect your views and try to support them, I don't understand why this card is any different than any other T206. Of course it depicts Honus Wagner and is very expensive, but it has to be graded with the same standards used for all T206's. And if any other one is trimmed down to look NR MT (we have to assume every card that has the edges shaved is going to have at minimum fabulous eye appeal) it can be assigned one grade and one only: AUTH. It's an altered card, period. It was done to deceive a buyer by making it appear a higher grade than it actually is.

So what is different about this card? If no other trimmed T206 merits the hand cut designation, why does this one? I don't see the distinction.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Hi Leon- while I always respect your views and try to support them, I don't understand why this card is any different than any other T206. Of course it depicts Honus Wagner and is very expensive, but it has to be graded with the same standards used for all T206's. And if any other one is trimmed down to look NR MT (we have to assume every card that has the edges shaved is going to have at minimum fabulous eye appeal) it can be assigned one grade and one only: AUTH. It's an altered card, period. It was done to deceive a buyer by making it appear a higher grade than it actually is.

So what is different about this card? If no other trimmed T206 merits the hand cut designation, why does this one? I don't see the distinction.

+1

[frankbmd]

My understanding of valuing cards with PSA qualifiers is roughly a 2 pt reduction in the numerical grade (ie PSA 6 OC ~ PSA 4 in value).

Therefore should not the Wagner be reslabbed as a

PSA 10 HC

I don't expect any support for this idea, as I don't support it either. I just don't like the whole qualifier issue with PSA.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Hi Leon- while I always respect your views and try to support them, I don't understand why this card is any different than any other T206. Of course it depicts Honus Wagner and is very expensive, but it has to be graded with the same standards used for all T206's. And if any other one is trimmed down to look NR MT (we have to assume every card that has the edges shaved is going to have at minimum fabulous eye appeal) it can be assigned one grade and one only: AUTH. It's an altered card, period. It was done to deceive a buyer by making it appear a higher grade than it actually is.

So what is different about this card? If no other trimmed T206 merits the hand cut designation, why does this one? I don't see the distinction.

This card is different. It transcends the hobby. It is different for that reason. Who made the rule that it can't have "PSA 8 - Hand Cut"? Is there some special Grading Police I am unaware of? It was hand cut, put it on the slab and make it technically correct. How many other T206's, or any cards in the hobby, are like this one? Answer that question and you can get a little closer to accepting my suggested compromise. I am talking about helping preserve the greatness of The Card. Even the other top Wagners don't have this one's attributes. As most have said, at this point it doesn't really matter what is on the slab as everyone in the collecting world knows what it is. Why not make the label be correct and not take away it's greatness? I know some hobbyists will never accept this, and that is ok, I still think it's not a bad idea. I am stubborn though . thanks to all who have responded. Everyone's opinion is appreciated.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If it's trimmed, the grade is irrelevant -- it's Authentic because it's altered. If it's a strip card etc. that was MEANT to be hand cut, then it isn't really altered so the grade becomes at least marginally relevant.

[mark evans]

I see Leon's point about trying to preserve the 'greatness of the card' but think this can be achieved consistent with the principles of grading with an "Authentic" grade so long as accompanied by an appropriate characterization. And, I don't think "Gretzky/McNall" does the job.

I was obviously joking in my prior post about "Mastro Wagner" although Bill does appear to be the person most responsible for bringing the card into the hobby and onto its way to become the icon it is today. I think with all the creativity among our members, someone could come up with a fitting characterization. "Hobby Icon"?

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by mark evans

I see Leon's point about trying to preserve the 'greatness of the card' but think this can be achieved consistent with the principles of grading with an "Authentic" grade so long as accompanied by an appropriate characterization. And, I don't think "Gretzky/McNall" does the job.

I was obviously joking in my prior post about "Mastro Wagner" although Bill does appear to be the person most responsible for bringing the card into the hobby and onto its way to become the icon it is today. I think with all the creativity among our members, someone could come up with a fitting characterization. "Hobby Icon"?

How about....."The Card" ?

[CobbSpikedMe]

After reading all the opinions I am still at the same point I was when I began. In order to answer the question of what grade the card should have we have to simply think like a grader. That means we can't take the card's mystique into question or the fact that it is the "Holy Grail" of the hobby. We have to just look at the card like any other card we look at.

If it is a trimmed card, then we have to give it an Auth grade. Simple. As collectors we can debate it all we want and that's the great thing about this board. We can debate it. But when the card gets into the hands of a professional objective grader, it's just another card and should accurately be graded as it is. Authentic. End of story.

I do think it should have pedigree on the flip however to acknowledge it's importance to the hobby.

Thanks,

AndyH

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Leon

This card is different. It transcends the hobby. It is different for that reason. Who made the rule that it can't have "PSA 8 - Hand Cut"? Is there some special Grading Police I am unaware of? It was hand cut, put it on the slab and make it technically correct. How many other T206's, or any cards in the hobby, are like this one? Answer that question and you can get a little closer to accepting my suggested compromise. I am talking about helping preserve the greatness of The Card. Even the other top Wagners don't have this one's attributes. As most have said, at this point it doesn't really matter what is on the slab as everyone in the collecting world knows what it is. Why not make the label be correct and not take away it's greatness? I know some hobbyists will never accept this, and that is ok, I still think it's not a bad idea. I am stubborn though . thanks to all who have responded. Everyone's opinion is appreciated.

I understand your logic Leon, on all points. I think it will always be the "notorious card" though, and will always be worth a boatload of $$, as long as it didn't just have an "A" on the label- it would still have to have the "label" it has, just not the "grade".

Sincerely, Clayton

[barrysloate]

Well if you are insistent that this card is different then I am going to suggest how it can be distinguished from other cards: how about if the label reads "AUTH hand cut?" That gives it a little more cache and separates it from the garden variety AUTH that is nothing more than a card altered by a card doctor. The "AUTH hand cut" designation would be used to show that it was originally cut off of a sheet. I can live with that.

But the term "PSA 8" has to be removed from the equation. There is nothing PSA 8 about this card. It only looks NR MT/MT because it was trimmed to look that way. It only deserves that designation if it has remained nearly pristine since it was issued, similar to the amazing Black Swamp cards.

That's my point, and I'm sticking to it. I guess we'll have to disagree on the PSA 8 part of it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Well if you are insistent that this card is different then I am going to suggest how it can be distinguished from other cards: how about if the label reads "AUTH hand cut?" That gives it a little more cache and separates it from the garden variety AUTH that is nothing more than a card altered by a card doctor. The "AUTH hand cut" designation would be used to show that it was originally cut off of a sheet. I can live with that.

But the term "PSA 8" has to be removed from the equation. There is nothing PSA 8 about this card. It only looks NR MT/MT because it was trimmed to look that way. It only deserves that designation if it has remained nearly pristine since it was issued, similar to the amazing Black Swamp cards.

That's my point, and I'm sticking to it. I guess we'll have to disagree on the PSA 8 part of it.

I respect your opinion Barry. When you say there is nothing about this card that is NRMT-MT, I politely disagree. When I look at it from arm's length, irrespective of the minute trimming, it looks like an 8. No other T206 Wags does.

[barrysloate]

Absolutely agree that no other Wagner looks like an 8. And this card does look like one. But trimmed cards are not supposed to get 8's. Maybe we've taken this one as far as we can go. Let's politely and respectfully accept we disagree. I happen to love the card and think it's a knockout. I'm just not crazy about that silly little label on it.

[3-2-count]

There will no doubt be opinions on both sides of the fence when it comes to the topic at hand, but the fact remains that Psa does and always has awarded numerical grades to hand cut cards. Where does one draw the line?? I see both arguments and don't lean either way. Cards below are not mine, simply shown for reference.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I respect your opinion Barry. When you say there is nothing about this card that is NRMT-MT, I politely disagree. When I look at it from arm's length, irrespective of the minute trimming, it looks like an 8. No other T206 Wags does.

So we assign grades based on how well a card was trimmed? Sorry, just don't buy that.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So we assign grades based on how well a card was trimmed? Sorry, just don't buy that.

Nope, we base it on facts. Fact is it was cut from a sheet (or so it is being stated that way). It looks like an 8 to me and was cut from a sheet NOT just trimmed, ....yeap, PSA 8 Hand Cut.

I am not sure we ALWAYS need to take such a hard view of everything in our hobby. I would vote for it being a kinder and gentler place while being grounded in reality and transparency.

At the end of the day, and final negative disposition given, the card should be relabeled. It will be interesting to see if it is, and if it is, what it says on the flip.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Leon

I respect your opinion Barry. When you say there is nothing about this card that is NRMT-MT, I politely disagree. When I look at it from arm's length, irrespective of the minute trimming, it looks like an 8. No other T206 Wags does.

As point of fact, there are two other Wagners (oversized) that if trimmed with appropriate adroitness can be made to APPEAR comparably high grade. Is that where we want to go?

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

As point of fact, there are two other Wagners (oversized) that if trimmed with appropriate adroitness can be made to APPEAR comparably high grade. Is that where we want to go?

Restore a Van Gogh damaged by WWII activities, or "re-cut" a Wagner...money vs. brains. Fun thoughts though!
GB

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

As point of fact, there are two other Wagners (oversized) that if trimmed with appropriate adroitness can be made to APPEAR comparably high grade. Is that where we want to go?

exactly right,


if i had a superb oversized wagner, with great appeal, just slightly rounded corners, i just trim it sharp, send it to psa, and ask for a hand cut qualifer.

my card goes from a 5 to an 8 hand cut?

i agree with corey, is this where we want to go? i say no.

the trimmers would have a field day thinking of ways to increase their card several grades and get a hand cut qualifier. and its not just wagner, other oversized cards too.