A possible solution for the PSA 8 T206 Wagner?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Hi Leon- while I always respect your views and try to support them, I don't understand why this card is any different than any other T206. Of course it depicts Honus Wagner and is very expensive, but it has to be graded with the same standards used for all T206's. And if any other one is trimmed down to look NR MT (we have to assume every card that has the edges shaved is going to have at minimum fabulous eye appeal) it can be assigned one grade and one only: AUTH. It's an altered card, period. It was done to deceive a buyer by making it appear a higher grade than it actually is.

So what is different about this card? If no other trimmed T206 merits the hand cut designation, why does this one? I don't see the distinction.

This card is different. It transcends the hobby. It is different for that reason. Who made the rule that it can't have "PSA 8 - Hand Cut"? Is there some special Grading Police I am unaware of? It was hand cut, put it on the slab and make it technically correct. How many other T206's, or any cards in the hobby, are like this one? Answer that question and you can get a little closer to accepting my suggested compromise. I am talking about helping preserve the greatness of The Card. Even the other top Wagners don't have this one's attributes. As most have said, at this point it doesn't really matter what is on the slab as everyone in the collecting world knows what it is. Why not make the label be correct and not take away it's greatness? I know some hobbyists will never accept this, and that is ok, I still think it's not a bad idea. I am stubborn though . thanks to all who have responded. Everyone's opinion is appreciated.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If it's trimmed, the grade is irrelevant -- it's Authentic because it's altered. If it's a strip card etc. that was MEANT to be hand cut, then it isn't really altered so the grade becomes at least marginally relevant.

[mark evans]

I see Leon's point about trying to preserve the 'greatness of the card' but think this can be achieved consistent with the principles of grading with an "Authentic" grade so long as accompanied by an appropriate characterization. And, I don't think "Gretzky/McNall" does the job.

I was obviously joking in my prior post about "Mastro Wagner" although Bill does appear to be the person most responsible for bringing the card into the hobby and onto its way to become the icon it is today. I think with all the creativity among our members, someone could come up with a fitting characterization. "Hobby Icon"?

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by mark evans

I see Leon's point about trying to preserve the 'greatness of the card' but think this can be achieved consistent with the principles of grading with an "Authentic" grade so long as accompanied by an appropriate characterization. And, I don't think "Gretzky/McNall" does the job.

I was obviously joking in my prior post about "Mastro Wagner" although Bill does appear to be the person most responsible for bringing the card into the hobby and onto its way to become the icon it is today. I think with all the creativity among our members, someone could come up with a fitting characterization. "Hobby Icon"?

How about....."The Card" ?

[CobbSpikedMe]

After reading all the opinions I am still at the same point I was when I began. In order to answer the question of what grade the card should have we have to simply think like a grader. That means we can't take the card's mystique into question or the fact that it is the "Holy Grail" of the hobby. We have to just look at the card like any other card we look at.

If it is a trimmed card, then we have to give it an Auth grade. Simple. As collectors we can debate it all we want and that's the great thing about this board. We can debate it. But when the card gets into the hands of a professional objective grader, it's just another card and should accurately be graded as it is. Authentic. End of story.

I do think it should have pedigree on the flip however to acknowledge it's importance to the hobby.

Thanks,

AndyH

[novakjr]

Tony, the difference there, is that those cards were "only" available as part of strips or sheets...The 1984 Nestle Mattingly is nice. I have one myself. But perfect centering is almost a given with those, because they were only released in sheet form, and for the most part, were professionally cut after the fact.

[3-2-count]

Hi David. Yes I did know that, but was referencing them only to show hand cut cards do receive numerical grades from Psa whether they be strip cards or from a sheet just as Leon stated from the beginning. Again not quite sure which way I lean right now, but the Wagner card was from a sheet, right? Like I stated where does one draw the line. Both camps have good points and this is no doubt a unique situation.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Leon

This card is different. It transcends the hobby. It is different for that reason. Who made the rule that it can't have "PSA 8 - Hand Cut"? Is there some special Grading Police I am unaware of? It was hand cut, put it on the slab and make it technically correct. How many other T206's, or any cards in the hobby, are like this one? Answer that question and you can get a little closer to accepting my suggested compromise. I am talking about helping preserve the greatness of The Card. Even the other top Wagners don't have this one's attributes. As most have said, at this point it doesn't really matter what is on the slab as everyone in the collecting world knows what it is. Why not make the label be correct and not take away it's greatness? I know some hobbyists will never accept this, and that is ok, I still think it's not a bad idea. I am stubborn though . thanks to all who have responded. Everyone's opinion is appreciated.

I understand your logic Leon, on all points. I think it will always be the "notorious card" though, and will always be worth a boatload of $$, as long as it didn't just have an "A" on the label- it would still have to have the "label" it has, just not the "grade".

Sincerely, Clayton

[barrysloate]

Well if you are insistent that this card is different then I am going to suggest how it can be distinguished from other cards: how about if the label reads "AUTH hand cut?" That gives it a little more cache and separates it from the garden variety AUTH that is nothing more than a card altered by a card doctor. The "AUTH hand cut" designation would be used to show that it was originally cut off of a sheet. I can live with that.

But the term "PSA 8" has to be removed from the equation. There is nothing PSA 8 about this card. It only looks NR MT/MT because it was trimmed to look that way. It only deserves that designation if it has remained nearly pristine since it was issued, similar to the amazing Black Swamp cards.

That's my point, and I'm sticking to it. I guess we'll have to disagree on the PSA 8 part of it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Well if you are insistent that this card is different then I am going to suggest how it can be distinguished from other cards: how about if the label reads "AUTH hand cut?" That gives it a little more cache and separates it from the garden variety AUTH that is nothing more than a card altered by a card doctor. The "AUTH hand cut" designation would be used to show that it was originally cut off of a sheet. I can live with that.

But the term "PSA 8" has to be removed from the equation. There is nothing PSA 8 about this card. It only looks NR MT/MT because it was trimmed to look that way. It only deserves that designation if it has remained nearly pristine since it was issued, similar to the amazing Black Swamp cards.

That's my point, and I'm sticking to it. I guess we'll have to disagree on the PSA 8 part of it.

I respect your opinion Barry. When you say there is nothing about this card that is NRMT-MT, I politely disagree. When I look at it from arm's length, irrespective of the minute trimming, it looks like an 8. No other T206 Wags does.

[barrysloate]

Absolutely agree that no other Wagner looks like an 8. And this card does look like one. But trimmed cards are not supposed to get 8's. Maybe we've taken this one as far as we can go. Let's politely and respectfully accept we disagree. I happen to love the card and think it's a knockout. I'm just not crazy about that silly little label on it.

[3-2-count]

There will no doubt be opinions on both sides of the fence when it comes to the topic at hand, but the fact remains that Psa does and always has awarded numerical grades to hand cut cards. Where does one draw the line?? I see both arguments and don't lean either way. Cards below are not mine, simply shown for reference.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I respect your opinion Barry. When you say there is nothing about this card that is NRMT-MT, I politely disagree. When I look at it from arm's length, irrespective of the minute trimming, it looks like an 8. No other T206 Wags does.

So we assign grades based on how well a card was trimmed? Sorry, just don't buy that.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So we assign grades based on how well a card was trimmed? Sorry, just don't buy that.

Nope, we base it on facts. Fact is it was cut from a sheet (or so it is being stated that way). It looks like an 8 to me and was cut from a sheet NOT just trimmed, ....yeap, PSA 8 Hand Cut.

I am not sure we ALWAYS need to take such a hard view of everything in our hobby. I would vote for it being a kinder and gentler place while being grounded in reality and transparency.

At the end of the day, and final negative disposition given, the card should be relabeled. It will be interesting to see if it is, and if it is, what it says on the flip.

[teetwoohsix]

When I look at the Wagner, as well as those strip cards Tony posted, it's hard for me to think those are actually hand cut. Machine cut? I couldn't hand cut a card that good on my best day

Sincerely, Clayton

[Boccabella]

Isn't it a moot point until Ken Kendrick decides he wants to sell it or strikes a deal with PSA to adjust the flip?

In the long run, it's probably better to do the latter so the controversy doesn't hog the headlines/message boards when it is for sale again.

"Authentic" or not, the value of the card isn't going to plummet. Collectors like "nice" and this is still the "nicest" of all.

Most people who have $ to spend on a very expensive old baseball card don't think like you, the "serious" collector.

Wealthy people like "newsworthy" and the Wagner card is definitely that. You can wish it away, but it ain't happenin'.

I'm pretty sure there will be a waiting list.

[botn]

While standards and rules have changed at PSA since the Wagner was first graded, I doubt even then, the intent or purpose of assigning a grade would have applied to cards which where hand cut from issues which were not intended to be hand cut. T206s are not strip cards or cards which were cut off of a box. At this point, were PSA to do anything short of placing the card in an Authentic holder they would once again being complicit in rewriting grading standards and rules for this card. The original assigned grade was done with deceit and it would only continue to compromise the concept of grading to apply a new set of standards because of this card. This card should not continue to receive special treatment. Already are enough people, and therefore cards, in the hobby who get special treatment. This should be the end of the road for this one. Time to wear the scarlet letter!

Mastro was not the only one involved in assigning a grade on this card. His admission implicates others, I would think. Further, we did not need an admission from him about the alteration to know it was altered. Each time PSA saw the card, when they had it on display at shows or the several times it was reholdered, they decided to look the other way and permit the lie to live on. I suppose they could argue the card was never sent to them for review but it should be their responsibility to maintain the integrity of their services especially in light of a glaring error.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Leon

Nope, we base it on facts. Fact is it was cut from a sheet (or so it is being stated that way). It looks like an 8 to me and was cut from a sheet NOT just trimmed, ....yeap, PSA 8 Hand Cut.

I am not sure we ALWAYS need to take such a hard view of everything in our hobby. I would vote for it being a kinder and gentler place while being grounded in reality and transparency.

At the end of the day, and final negative disposition given, the card should be relabeled. It will be interesting to see if it is, and if it is, what it says on the flip.

Leon,

The implications of this line of reasoning IMO is that it will set a new standard of how final-production-run uncut sheets from ALL issues are to be graded. Given the technology available to precisely cut sheets combined with uncut sheets known to exist, we could in theory create, for example, "PSA 10 Hand-Laser-Machine-Etc. Cut" examples of N172 Kelly, Ward, Brouthers and Comisky, E93 Cobb, Wagner, and Mathewson, M101-5 Ruth and Thorpe, '33 Goudey Ruth, '34 Goudey Gehrig, Sport Kings Ruth and Cobb. The likelihood of that happening will depend how the market would value such creations. Currently uncut sheets are valued at a fraction of their break value based the individual cards receiving numerical grades. If however a new grading standard emerged and materially changed the value of such sheet-cut cards, either the prices of the sheets would increase markedly or there would be significant economic incentive to cut them up.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Leon,

The implications of this line of reasoning IMO is that it will set a new standard of how final-production-run uncut sheets from ALL issues are to be graded. Given the technology available to precisely cut sheets combined with uncut sheets known to exist, we could in theory create, for example, "PSA 10 Hand-Laser-Machine-Etc. Cut" examples of N172 Kelly, Ward, Brouthers and Comisky, E93 Cobb, Wagner, and Mathewson, M101-5 Ruth and Thorpe, '33 Goudey Ruth, '34 Goudey Gehrig, Sport Kings Ruth and Cobb. The likelihood of that happening will depend how the market would value such creations. Currently uncut sheets are valued at a fraction of their break value based the individual cards receiving numerical grades. If however a new grading standard emerged and materially changed the value of such sheet-cut cards, either the prices of the sheets would increase markedly or there would be significant economic incentive to cut them up.

Corey, it's not a new standard. It's already being done with the cards posted in this thread. Uncut strips are valued at less than some of the very high grade, hand cut, strip cards today. It drives me crazy but it's already here. If there are other T206s found on a sheet, and then cut, I don't have a problem with them grading numerically with the qualifier of HAND CUT. I always thought it was the best way to do it (for the strip cards). I doubt I will convince the other 75% of this situation but it's a fun debate. I do stand by my original thoughts and was curious if I would change them as I saw all of the other responses. I am open to changing my mind the other way but haven't yet.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Leon

I respect your opinion Barry. When you say there is nothing about this card that is NRMT-MT, I politely disagree. When I look at it from arm's length, irrespective of the minute trimming, it looks like an 8. No other T206 Wags does.

As point of fact, there are two other Wagners (oversized) that if trimmed with appropriate adroitness can be made to APPEAR comparably high grade. Is that where we want to go?

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

As point of fact, there are two other Wagners (oversized) that if trimmed with appropriate adroitness can be made to APPEAR comparably high grade. Is that where we want to go?

Restore a Van Gogh damaged by WWII activities, or "re-cut" a Wagner...money vs. brains. Fun thoughts though!
GB

[Rich Klein]

Have a book specifically written about them. C'mon now -- this cards will sell for more $$$ if and when the next time it sells due to the fame. And no, this card's flip will not change. All you will need to go with it is a signed copy of "The Card".

Rich

[travrosty]

even if the hand cut qualifier got a little traction and psa decided it wanted to do it, it would never fly, because it would look like an obvious attempt by psa to minimize the fallout over misgrading it the first time. people would be outraged that all psa would have to do is add "hand cut" to the flip it is already in and that everything would now be okay?

PSA used that cards for 20 years in advertising, etc. to promote its business, and it was an "A" all along, not an 8. Great advertising for them. The first card they graded, and a big draw, at the national, etc.


Now they get to decide it should remain an 8 (HC) to save face? I don't think they should ever grade a T206 Wagner again. The card was trimmed. PSA graded a trimmed card.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

As point of fact, there are two other Wagners (oversized) that if trimmed with appropriate adroitness can be made to APPEAR comparably high grade. Is that where we want to go?

exactly right,


if i had a superb oversized wagner, with great appeal, just slightly rounded corners, i just trim it sharp, send it to psa, and ask for a hand cut qualifer.

my card goes from a 5 to an 8 hand cut?

i agree with corey, is this where we want to go? i say no.

the trimmers would have a field day thinking of ways to increase their card several grades and get a hand cut qualifier. and its not just wagner, other oversized cards too.