A possible solution for the PSA 8 T206 Wagner?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Well if you are insistent that this card is different then I am going to suggest how it can be distinguished from other cards: how about if the label reads "AUTH hand cut?" That gives it a little more cache and separates it from the garden variety AUTH that is nothing more than a card altered by a card doctor. The "AUTH hand cut" designation would be used to show that it was originally cut off of a sheet. I can live with that.

But the term "PSA 8" has to be removed from the equation. There is nothing PSA 8 about this card. It only looks NR MT/MT because it was trimmed to look that way. It only deserves that designation if it has remained nearly pristine since it was issued, similar to the amazing Black Swamp cards.

That's my point, and I'm sticking to it. I guess we'll have to disagree on the PSA 8 part of it.

I respect your opinion Barry. When you say there is nothing about this card that is NRMT-MT, I politely disagree. When I look at it from arm's length, irrespective of the minute trimming, it looks like an 8. No other T206 Wags does.

[barrysloate]

Absolutely agree that no other Wagner looks like an 8. And this card does look like one. But trimmed cards are not supposed to get 8's. Maybe we've taken this one as far as we can go. Let's politely and respectfully accept we disagree. I happen to love the card and think it's a knockout. I'm just not crazy about that silly little label on it.

[3-2-count]

There will no doubt be opinions on both sides of the fence when it comes to the topic at hand, but the fact remains that Psa does and always has awarded numerical grades to hand cut cards. Where does one draw the line?? I see both arguments and don't lean either way. Cards below are not mine, simply shown for reference.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I respect your opinion Barry. When you say there is nothing about this card that is NRMT-MT, I politely disagree. When I look at it from arm's length, irrespective of the minute trimming, it looks like an 8. No other T206 Wags does.

So we assign grades based on how well a card was trimmed? Sorry, just don't buy that.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So we assign grades based on how well a card was trimmed? Sorry, just don't buy that.

Nope, we base it on facts. Fact is it was cut from a sheet (or so it is being stated that way). It looks like an 8 to me and was cut from a sheet NOT just trimmed, ....yeap, PSA 8 Hand Cut.

I am not sure we ALWAYS need to take such a hard view of everything in our hobby. I would vote for it being a kinder and gentler place while being grounded in reality and transparency.

At the end of the day, and final negative disposition given, the card should be relabeled. It will be interesting to see if it is, and if it is, what it says on the flip.

[teetwoohsix]

When I look at the Wagner, as well as those strip cards Tony posted, it's hard for me to think those are actually hand cut. Machine cut? I couldn't hand cut a card that good on my best day

Sincerely, Clayton

[Boccabella]

Isn't it a moot point until Ken Kendrick decides he wants to sell it or strikes a deal with PSA to adjust the flip?

In the long run, it's probably better to do the latter so the controversy doesn't hog the headlines/message boards when it is for sale again.

"Authentic" or not, the value of the card isn't going to plummet. Collectors like "nice" and this is still the "nicest" of all.

Most people who have $ to spend on a very expensive old baseball card don't think like you, the "serious" collector.

Wealthy people like "newsworthy" and the Wagner card is definitely that. You can wish it away, but it ain't happenin'.

I'm pretty sure there will be a waiting list.

[drc]

Yes, 'hand cut' is just a figure of speech in some cases.

Rule #1 for hand cutting: First make sure they aren't pinking sheers.
Rule #2: If they were pinking sheers, sell the card as a T206 Deckle Edge regional test issue.
Rule #3: Practice on a 1991 Donruss first.

[botn]

While standards and rules have changed at PSA since the Wagner was first graded, I doubt even then, the intent or purpose of assigning a grade would have applied to cards which where hand cut from issues which were not intended to be hand cut. T206s are not strip cards or cards which were cut off of a box. At this point, were PSA to do anything short of placing the card in an Authentic holder they would once again being complicit in rewriting grading standards and rules for this card. The original assigned grade was done with deceit and it would only continue to compromise the concept of grading to apply a new set of standards because of this card. This card should not continue to receive special treatment. Already are enough people, and therefore cards, in the hobby who get special treatment. This should be the end of the road for this one. Time to wear the scarlet letter!

Mastro was not the only one involved in assigning a grade on this card. His admission implicates others, I would think. Further, we did not need an admission from him about the alteration to know it was altered. Each time PSA saw the card, when they had it on display at shows or the several times it was reholdered, they decided to look the other way and permit the lie to live on. I suppose they could argue the card was never sent to them for review but it should be their responsibility to maintain the integrity of their services especially in light of a glaring error.

[boneheadandrube]

This card has been the elephant in the room that nobody wanted to seriously talk about for 20 years...everyone knew exactly what this card was the whole time. (Trimmed when viewed in person). The question for any collector should be "why has it taken this long to ...." Add your own terms to the end of that statement, and think about why an ostrich sticks its head into a hole in the ground...The hobby will mature if this card is reholdered (not gonna happen)...

GB

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Leon

Nope, we base it on facts. Fact is it was cut from a sheet (or so it is being stated that way). It looks like an 8 to me and was cut from a sheet NOT just trimmed, ....yeap, PSA 8 Hand Cut.

I am not sure we ALWAYS need to take such a hard view of everything in our hobby. I would vote for it being a kinder and gentler place while being grounded in reality and transparency.

At the end of the day, and final negative disposition given, the card should be relabeled. It will be interesting to see if it is, and if it is, what it says on the flip.

Leon,

The implications of this line of reasoning IMO is that it will set a new standard of how final-production-run uncut sheets from ALL issues are to be graded. Given the technology available to precisely cut sheets combined with uncut sheets known to exist, we could in theory create, for example, "PSA 10 Hand-Laser-Machine-Etc. Cut" examples of N172 Kelly, Ward, Brouthers and Comisky, E93 Cobb, Wagner, and Mathewson, M101-5 Ruth and Thorpe, '33 Goudey Ruth, '34 Goudey Gehrig, Sport Kings Ruth and Cobb. The likelihood of that happening will depend how the market would value such creations. Currently uncut sheets are valued at a fraction of their break value based the individual cards receiving numerical grades. If however a new grading standard emerged and materially changed the value of such sheet-cut cards, either the prices of the sheets would increase markedly or there would be significant economic incentive to cut them up.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Leon,

The implications of this line of reasoning IMO is that it will set a new standard of how final-production-run uncut sheets from ALL issues are to be graded. Given the technology available to precisely cut sheets combined with uncut sheets known to exist, we could in theory create, for example, "PSA 10 Hand-Laser-Machine-Etc. Cut" examples of N172 Kelly, Ward, Brouthers and Comisky, E93 Cobb, Wagner, and Mathewson, M101-5 Ruth and Thorpe, '33 Goudey Ruth, '34 Goudey Gehrig, Sport Kings Ruth and Cobb. The likelihood of that happening will depend how the market would value such creations. Currently uncut sheets are valued at a fraction of their break value based the individual cards receiving numerical grades. If however a new grading standard emerged and materially changed the value of such sheet-cut cards, either the prices of the sheets would increase markedly or there would be significant economic incentive to cut them up.

Corey, it's not a new standard. It's already being done with the cards posted in this thread. Uncut strips are valued at less than some of the very high grade, hand cut, strip cards today. It drives me crazy but it's already here. If there are other T206s found on a sheet, and then cut, I don't have a problem with them grading numerically with the qualifier of HAND CUT. I always thought it was the best way to do it (for the strip cards). I doubt I will convince the other 75% of this situation but it's a fun debate. I do stand by my original thoughts and was curious if I would change them as I saw all of the other responses. I am open to changing my mind the other way but haven't yet.

[HRBAKER]

Shouldn't a distinction be made for cards that were marketed in strips, intended to be cut into cards, like strip cards? I can see these numerically graded as #/Hand Cut because they were used as intended. I don't think I have ever seen evidence that T206s were ever marketed as strips with the intention that the user cut them into separate cards.

This is a card with two faces. One, the best surviving example condition-wise of the most famous card in the hobby. IOW, it is and always will be the most famous copy of the most famous card in the hobby. The second face as Corey referenced above is that it will also always seemingly be linked with the fraudulent underbelly of the hobby.

To me to make this card continue to be an "8" going forward regardless of qualifier says that we are determined to find a way to "number" this card based on the card it is, not any standardized system of grading.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Leon

I respect your opinion Barry. When you say there is nothing about this card that is NRMT-MT, I politely disagree. When I look at it from arm's length, irrespective of the minute trimming, it looks like an 8. No other T206 Wags does.

As point of fact, there are two other Wagners (oversized) that if trimmed with appropriate adroitness can be made to APPEAR comparably high grade. Is that where we want to go?

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

As point of fact, there are two other Wagners (oversized) that if trimmed with appropriate adroitness can be made to APPEAR comparably high grade. Is that where we want to go?

Restore a Van Gogh damaged by WWII activities, or "re-cut" a Wagner...money vs. brains. Fun thoughts though!
GB

[Rich Klein]

Have a book specifically written about them. C'mon now -- this cards will sell for more $$$ if and when the next time it sells due to the fame. And no, this card's flip will not change. All you will need to go with it is a signed copy of "The Card".

Rich

[travrosty]

even if the hand cut qualifier got a little traction and psa decided it wanted to do it, it would never fly, because it would look like an obvious attempt by psa to minimize the fallout over misgrading it the first time. people would be outraged that all psa would have to do is add "hand cut" to the flip it is already in and that everything would now be okay?

PSA used that cards for 20 years in advertising, etc. to promote its business, and it was an "A" all along, not an 8. Great advertising for them. The first card they graded, and a big draw, at the national, etc.


Now they get to decide it should remain an 8 (HC) to save face? I don't think they should ever grade a T206 Wagner again. The card was trimmed. PSA graded a trimmed card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Travis, I have news for you. PSA has graded a LOT of trimmed cards. So has SGC. Maybe not in terms of percentages, but given the volume both companies have graded, many trimmed cards have, for whatever reason, slipped through. And it will continue to happen, it's inevitable. It's an imperfect world.

[calvindog]

Yeah but this Wagner was the centerpiece of PSA's advertising for decades. It is the most significant card they've ever graded. And not only was it misgraded but it was graded fraudulently. And of course, as predicted, Joe Orlando sticks his head in the sand and pretends this debacle doesn't exist. What a clown he is.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

As point of fact, there are two other Wagners (oversized) that if trimmed with appropriate adroitness can be made to APPEAR comparably high grade. Is that where we want to go?

exactly right,


if i had a superb oversized wagner, with great appeal, just slightly rounded corners, i just trim it sharp, send it to psa, and ask for a hand cut qualifer.

my card goes from a 5 to an 8 hand cut?

i agree with corey, is this where we want to go? i say no.

the trimmers would have a field day thinking of ways to increase their card several grades and get a hand cut qualifier. and its not just wagner, other oversized cards too.