The hobby is surely passing me by

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I generally agree with you. That said, even Leon admits that he thinks some benign symbols are objectionable. What's the line?

Whatever white supremacists do, say, or use as a symbol should be 100% irrelevant to every sane person on earth and beyond.

If Charles Manson had a Yogi Bear tattoo, would that mean Yogi was "co-opted" and Yogi cartoons were suddenly racist?

[Kidnapped18]

We still have swastikas on our county courthouse. Courthouse was built in 1931, Hitler rose to power in 1933.

Most people don't pay attention to them or have any clue they are there.

I watched Da Vinci Code early this am lots of symbols can be interpreted different ways and be co opted for whatever use a person wants.

[BobbyStrawberry]

deleted

[Leon]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

That's a nice line of escapist thought, but the Department of Homeland Security, Attorney General and FBI beg to differ:


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/12/u...remacists.html


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b1810615.html

Probably need your full name out here to say someone feels a certain way. Read the rule at the top of the page in bold......thanks

And I also don't give those people any cred. Law enforcement does because they get to deal with them. I don't have to and won't and I don't care what extremists say. It's a frog.

[ALR-bishop]

https://video.search.yahoo.com/searc...i=uoMQw3iHDoIR

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Leon

Probably need your full name out here to say someone feels a certain way. Read the rule at the top of the page in bold......thanks

And I also don't give those people any cred. Law enforcement does because they get to deal with them. I don't have to and won't and I don't care what extremists say. It's a frog.

Hi Leon, I'd rather not do that here, so I'll just delete the prior post. Thanks for clarifying

[Peter_Spaeth]

Can we all agree it's appropriate to remove statues of Thomas Jefferson?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Can we all agree it's appropriate to remove statues of Thomas Jefferson?

If the criteria you base that on is what I assume, Washington would be next.

Imagine that poor football team.

Washington Redskins to
Washington Football Team to
Football Team.

Political correctness: dismantling history and tradition one piece at a time.

[Exhibitman]

Nevermind all this political bullshit, the World Series is starting!

[dbrown]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Am a little surprised Goldin sold this. Pepe the Frog has been co-opted as a symbol of white supremacy. Would they sell Wagner in a KKK hood? I mean, they can sell whatever they want, I'm just surprised.

100% agree. Pepe is the mascot of American dipshit white supremacy and anti-semitism now. Whoever made this NFT was completely aware of what Pepe means. Whoever bought it probably does too.

I remember when Leon ran that Stormfront guy out of here several years ago. Those were the days.


David

[MattyC]

If that NFT of the Wagner is not the hobby jumping the shark, I don't know what is. The only other equivalent-magnitude shark jumping I can think of is PSA debasing itself by slabbing the doodles of that internet false-profit snake oil salesman Gary V. Together, those two events say a lot about where the hobby is, and how desperate a money play it is for some people. Thankfully, for many of us, it is still about collecting cards we find beautiful of a sport we love.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kidnapped18

We still have swastikas on our county courthouse. Courthouse was built in 1931, Hitler rose to power in 1933.

Most people don't pay attention to them or have any clue they are there.

I watched Da Vinci Code early this am lots of symbols can be interpreted different ways and be co opted for whatever use a person wants.

Surely in all this time there has been controversy about getting rid of them?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If the criteria you base that on is what I assume, Washington would be next.

Imagine that poor football team.

Washington Redskins to
Washington Football Team to
Football Team.

Political correctness: dismantling history and tradition one piece at a time.

https://www.npr.org/2021/10/19/10472...ouncil-chamber

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by dbrown

100% agree. Pepe is the mascot of American dipshit white supremacy and anti-semitism now. Whoever made this NFT was completely aware of what Pepe means. Whoever bought it probably does too.

I remember when Leon ran that Stormfront guy out of here several years ago. Those were the days.


David

Not sure a man who celebrates a cdv of men in black face as one of his favorite pieces is exactly gonna be your shining knight in this moment.
That's alright though, older caucasian men are always the last to see the value of change - hence their lawns are always looking good.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Not sure a man who celebrates a cdv of men in black face as one of his favorite pieces is exactly gonna be your shining knight in this moment.
That's alright though, older caucasian men are always the last to see the value of change - hence their lawns are always looking good.

Comments like this are why race should not be discussed on this sub along with politics and religion. Everybody gets hyper triggered and can't play nice.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Not sure a man who celebrates a cdv of men in black face as one of his favorite pieces is exactly gonna be your shining knight in this moment.
That's alright though, older caucasian men are always the last to see the value of change - hence their lawns are always looking good.

I represent that!! BTW, they are frog face to me. Pepe Frog LOL


.

[Shoeless Moe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emQ6_PrRzIk

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko

What does it mean if I hate Pepe Wagner?

Stop being so speciesist and get woke! The amphibian barrier is coming down in baseball soon. Don't be left behind.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Can we all agree it's appropriate to remove statues of Thomas Jefferson?

Historians are pretty sure he did a lot of stuff that would at least get him fired pretty much anywhere.

Same with many of the founding fathers.

But aside from starting a new country what they did wasn't all that unusual for the time they lived.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

Historians are pretty sure he did a lot of stuff that would at least get him fired pretty much anywhere.

Same with many of the founding fathers.

But aside from starting a new country what they did wasn't all that unusual for the time they lived.

The same may be true for some great civil rights leaders. Whatever.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Not sure a man who celebrates a cdv of men in black face as one of his favorite pieces is exactly gonna be your shining knight in this moment.
That's alright though, older caucasian men are always the last to see the value of change - hence their lawns are always looking good.

And hardly anyone seems to realize the difference between what was and what is. And many of those people celebrate outright criminals while decrying the actions however misguided of people who likely died more than 20 years ago.

[Snapolit1]

Judging past behavior by today's standards is a vexing question and a serious one. It's not an easy one. Behaviors we condemn today, and rightfully so, were generally accepted at one point. How do we view the people who condoned them at the time? I don't give them a moral free pass, and I also understand the mitigating circumstances of history.

[Exhibitman]

I thought Pepe was a skunk...

[Bobbycee]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Judging past behavior by today's standards is a vexing question and a serious one. It's not an easy one. Behaviors we condemn today, and rightfully so, were generally accepted at one point. How do we view the people who condoned them at the time? I don't give them a moral free pass, and I also understand the mitigating circumstances of history.

Yes, it is easy: don't do it. It's only recently that the Woke religion has decided to take down history and cancel what was the norm of the past. It had better be a faze. Past generations didn't do it. You simply cannot use today's standards to judge past behaviors. Learn from history but you simply cannot change what already happened. If it keeps up, we'll have a sterile and conformed society like straight out of 1984.

Taking down statues of Jefferson and Washington is a tragic waste of time and energy. What do you think history is going to say about what is going on in today's outrage of the minute culture? Many of the very people who are tearing down history don't know squat about history or context of it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bobbycee

Yes, it is easy: don't do it. It's only recently that the Woke religion has decided to take down history and cancel what was the norm of the past. It had better be a faze. Past generations didn't do it. You simply cannot use today's standards to judge past behaviors. Learn from history but you simply cannot change what already happened. If it keeps up, we'll have a sterile and conformed society like straight out of 1984.

Taking down statues of Jefferson and Washington is a tragic waste of time and energy. What do you think history is going to say about what is going on in today's outrage of the minute culture? Many of the very people who are tearing down history don't know squat about history or context of it.

I think you have to be reasonable. It's one thing not to have a state Capitol fly the Confederate flag, it's quite another to take down a statue of Thomas Jefferson of all people or to change a school named for Abraham Lincoln of all people. And it's not like every famous and accomplished person of color has been a saint either.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Imagine for a moment that you are a black man. You take your son or daughter out and they ask you who Thomas Jefferson is and why there's a big statue of him in a public space. Would you want to ignore the fact that because of his race and privilege and black people's race and lack thereof, Jefferson was legally able to own people for no other reason than because they happened to look like you and your son?

Slavery and its effects are a crucial part of US history and continue to impact the daily lives of black Americans in ways many white Americans have difficulty understanding or acknowledging. The argument for taking down a Jefferson statue is not to whitewash history, but in fact just the opposite–to end the practice of publicly honoring white racists, which in itself whitewashes the horrors of slavery and racism that are intertwined with the accomplishments of celebrated white men such as Jefferson.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Imagine for a moment that you are a black man. You take your son or daughter out and they ask you who Thomas Jefferson is and why there's a big statue of him in a public space. Would you want to ignore the fact that because of his race and privilege and black people's race and lack thereof, Jefferson was legally able to own people for no other reason than because they happened to look like you and your son?

I would say that is a good discussion to have.

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Slavery and its effects are a crucial part of US history and continue to impact the daily lives of black Americans in ways many white Americans have difficulty understanding or acknowledging. The argument for taking down a Jefferson statue is not to whitewash history, but in fact just the opposite–to end the practice of publicly honoring white racists, which in itself whitewashes the horrors of slavery and racism that are intertwined with the accomplishments of celebrated white men such as Jefferson.

Slavery exists in Africa to this day, but it was abolished in this country over 150 years ago, because of the system of government founded by Jefferson and his contemporaries.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I would say that is a good discussion to have.



Slavery exists in Africa to this day, but it was abolished in this country over 150 years ago, because of the system of government founded by Jefferson and his contemporaries.

Existed long before the united states as well, but we arent talking about "those people" only those Anglo Americans "bad people"

[Eric72]

As this thread devolves into a discussion about things other than the hobby, figured I'd post a picture of card. The player is by no means a household name, he just happened to have been a ballplayer.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I would say that is a good discussion to have.

I agree, but perhaps a better discussion if it happens under different circumstances.

Originally Posted by Mark17

Slavery exists in Africa to this day

Slavery in Africa has nothing to do with my comment.

Originally Posted by Mark17

but it was abolished in this country over 150 years ago, because of the system of government founded by Jefferson and his contemporaries.

Ah yes, the ones who wrote that "all men are created equal" while denying rights to black men and all women.

[egri]

From the auction description:

This NFT is one of 101 minted, with many of them lost in wallets making the population much lower than the original issuance.

That clunk was my eyes rolling into the back of my head.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Imagine for a moment that you are a black man. You take your son or daughter out and they ask you who Thomas Jefferson is and why there's a big statue of him in a public space. Would you want to ignore the fact that because of his race and privilege and black people's race and lack thereof, Jefferson was legally able to own people for no other reason than because they happened to look like you and your son?

Slavery and its effects are a crucial part of US history and continue to impact the daily lives of black Americans in ways many white Americans have difficulty understanding or acknowledging. The argument for taking down a Jefferson statue is not to whitewash history, but in fact just the opposite–to end the practice of publicly honoring white racists, which in itself whitewashes the horrors of slavery and racism that are intertwined with the accomplishments of celebrated white men such as Jefferson.

You need to capitalize Black, get with the times.

[Snapolit1]

In my family there are many men/boys. I am one of 4 sons. My father one of two sons. My parents have 12 grandsons in a row. Finally a girl on the 13th try.

Out of 20 or so males, there is one step-child who is mixed race.

Most of the men/boys have played one sport or another. Trained in the off season. Usually involves logging miles jogging.

Out of the oh, 15, so of us who have jogged a bit at one point of another, basically in the same group of neighborhoods, care to guess who is the only one to be stopped by the police while running and asked for ID. Twice now.
Over say 30 years. I'm sure you can figure it out. And, yeah, he's an A student football player if anyone cares.

It's not really that complicated. I have Harvard undergrad/Harvard law friends who have been put on the pavement facedown more that once or twice. For no real reason other than someone of his race was suspected of doing something somewhere. It's not that complicated.

Deny it all you want. This is the reality dark skin people face every time they leave the house. They are treated differently and unequally from white folks.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Ah yes, the ones who wrote that "all men are created equal" while denying rights to black men and all women.

They also wrote about forming “a more perfect union” and set up a system of government that allowed for our society to become more inclusive, albeit sometimes slowly and with violent backlash.

That said, I always found the argument that our past sins are no longer relevant because slavery still exists in Africa today to be somewhat specious. Mainly because the underlying assumption is that the US shouldn’t be held to a higher standard. If you want our system to be held up as a model for other, developing countries (and rightfully so), achieving only somewhat better results isn’t exactly the winning argument that it’s proponents would have you believe.

But, you are correct that this probably isn’t the right time or format for such a discussion. I’ve got enough stressors in my life as it is.

[jingram058]

Hobby passing me by? There is no hobby. That ship sailed in the 1980s or 90s. It's a m(b?)illionaires club. I'm not in it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

In my family there are many men/boys. I am one of 4 sons. My father one of two sons. My parents have 12 grandsons in a row. Finally a girl on the 13th try.

Out of 20 or so males, there is one step-child who is mixed race.

Most of the men/boys have played one sport or another. Trained in the off season. Usually involves logging miles jogging.

Out of the oh, 15, so of us who have jogged a bit at one point of another, basically in the same group of neighborhoods, care to guess who is the only one to be stopped by the police while running and asked for ID. Twice now.
Over say 30 years. I'm sure you can figure it out. And, yeah, he's an A student football player if anyone cares.

It's not really that complicated. I have Harvard undergrad/Harvard law friends who have been put on the pavement facedown more that once or twice. For no real reason other than someone of his race was suspected of doing something somewhere. It's not that complicated.

Deny it all you want. This is the reality dark skin people face every time they leave the house. They are treated differently and unequally from white folks.

Yes but this is a straw man point, nobody has denied racism still exists although your statement makes an awfully big generalization. So does sexism/misogyny. And anti-Semitism. And homophobia. And so on. The question is whether removing statues changes anything.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

...question is whether removing statues changes anything.

Removing a statue absolutely changes things.

The deeper questions are (1) how significant are the changes, (2) how many people are impacted, and (3) for how long will that impact be felt?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes but this is a straw man point, nobody has denied racism still exists although your statement makes an awfully big generalization. So does sexism/misogyny. And anti-Semitism. And homophobia. And so on. The question is whether removing statues changes anything.

Well said.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by dbrown

100% agree. Pepe is the mascot of American dipshit white supremacy and anti-semitism now. Whoever made this NFT was completely aware of what Pepe means. Whoever bought it probably does too.

I remember when Leon ran that Stormfront guy out of here several years ago. Those were the days.


David

He wasn't run out of here...he was still posting, buying, selling and trading up until he just recently passed away.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes but this is a straw man point, nobody has denied racism still exists although your statement makes an awfully big generalization. So does sexism/misogyny. And anti-Semitism. And homophobia. And so on. The question is whether removing statues changes anything.

Well, as a Jew, let me tell you some of what it's meant for me.
The fact that Nazi symbols, statues, literature, and spoken word are outlawed in Germany has me sleep better. Knowing that the German nation not just acknowledges it's past but speaks the horrors of it's past as part of it's everyday today and future, make it supremely difficult for those at the extremes to magnify or romanticize it, which lets face it, is an attempt to legitimize it.

If America, as a nation that made it's very foundation and wealth off the backs of dehumanizing people of color, could authentically speak it's historical truth and describe its attempt to more authentically represent its ideals - it would reflect far better on it's self anointed image of savior of the dis-empowered and mistreated.
Do you think the countries we decry for human rights violations don't look at our society and laugh off our sanctimony because we barely practice what we preach?

This country is so far off the rails of harmony between white and black in this country, NOT because Black people have been speaking for their right to equal treatment under the eyes and practice of the law, but because certain political leaders have made it ok for far right extremists to have an equal right of an alternate truth that they are free to do whatever the hell they want regardless of zero moral equivalency and blatantly racist underpinning.

All those pining for a past where they didn't have to confront 'woke' society are merely dispirited at not enjoying the unfettered benefits of being in the power position of racial overlord.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Wut?

[SAllen2556]

Slavery has been suffered by the entire human race, all over the planet. Had slavery been limited to one race in one country during three centuries, its tragedies would not have been one-tenth the magnitude they were in fact.

Why this provincial view of a worldwide evil? Often it is those who are most crucial of a "Eurocentic" view of the world who are most Eurocentric when it comes to the evils and failings of the human race.

Why would anyone wish to arbitrarily understate an evil that plagued mankind for thousands of years, unless it was not this evil itself that was the real concern, but rather the present-day uses of that historic evil? Clearly, the ability to score ideological points against American society or to induce guilt and thereby extract benefits from the white population today, are greatly enhanced by making enslavement appear to be a peculiarly American, or a peculiarly white, crime.

Has a special sense of grievance ever helped advance any people?

-Thomas Sowell, "Black Rednecks and White Liberals"

[Bobbycee]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Well, as a Jew, let me tell you some of what it's meant for me.
The fact that Nazi symbols, statues, literature, and spoken word are outlawed in Germany has me sleep better. Knowing that the German nation not just acknowledges it's past but speaks the horrors of it's past as part of it's everyday today and future, make it supremely difficult for those at the extremes to magnify or romanticize it, which lets face it, is an attempt to legitimize it.

If America, as a nation that made it's very foundation and wealth off the backs of dehumanizing people of color, could authentically speak it's historical truth and describe its attempt to more authentically represent its ideals - it would reflect far better on it's self anointed image of savior of the dis-empowered and mistreated.
Do you think the countries we decry for human rights violations don't look at our society and laugh off our sanctimony because we barely practice what we preach?

This country is so far off the rails of harmony between white and black in this country, NOT because Black people have been speaking for their right to equal treatment under the eyes and practice of the law, but because certain political leaders have made it ok for far right extremists to have an equal right of an alternate truth that they are free to do whatever the hell they want regardless of zero moral equivalency and blatantly racist underpinning.

All those pining for a past where they didn't have to confront 'woke' society are merely dispirited at not enjoying the unfettered benefits of being in the power position of racial overlord.

wow... wild swing and a miss. You make it sound like blacks & whites can barely survive together. Back away from the NY Times and grab a pile of cards to admire.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Well, as a Jew, let me tell you some of what it's meant for me.
The fact that Nazi symbols, statues, literature, and spoken word are outlawed in Germany has me sleep better. Knowing that the German nation not just acknowledges it's past but speaks the horrors of it's past as part of it's everyday today and future, make it supremely difficult for those at the extremes to magnify or romanticize it, which lets face it, is an attempt to legitimize it.

If America, as a nation that made it's very foundation and wealth off the backs of dehumanizing people of color, could authentically speak it's historical truth and describe its attempt to more authentically represent its ideals - it would reflect far better on it's self anointed image of savior of the dis-empowered and mistreated.
Do you think the countries we decry for human rights violations don't look at our society and laugh off our sanctimony because we barely practice what we preach?

This country is so far off the rails of harmony between white and black in this country, NOT because Black people have been speaking for their right to equal treatment under the eyes and practice of the law, but because certain political leaders have made it ok for far right extremists to have an equal right of an alternate truth that they are free to do whatever the hell they want regardless of zero moral equivalency and blatantly racist underpinning.

All those pining for a past where they didn't have to confront 'woke' society are merely dispirited at not enjoying the unfettered benefits of being in the power position of racial overlord.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syV2LkGpQB0

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Bobbycee

wow... wild swing and a miss. You make it sound like blacks & whites can barely survive together. Back away from the NY Times and grab a pile of cards to admire.

+1

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Well, as a Jew, let me tell you some of what it's meant for me.
The fact that Nazi symbols, statues, literature, and spoken word are outlawed in Germany has me sleep better. Knowing that the German nation not just acknowledges it's past but speaks the horrors of it's past as part of it's everyday today and future, make it supremely difficult for those at the extremes to magnify or romanticize it, which lets face it, is an attempt to legitimize it.

If America, as a nation that made it's very foundation and wealth off the backs of dehumanizing people of color, could authentically speak it's historical truth and describe its attempt to more authentically represent its ideals - it would reflect far better on it's self anointed image of savior of the dis-empowered and mistreated.
Do you think the countries we decry for human rights violations don't look at our society and laugh off our sanctimony because we barely practice what we preach?

This country is so far off the rails of harmony between white and black in this country, NOT because Black people have been speaking for their right to equal treatment under the eyes and practice of the law, but because certain political leaders have made it ok for far right extremists to have an equal right of an alternate truth that they are free to do whatever the hell they want regardless of zero moral equivalency and blatantly racist underpinning.

All those pining for a past where they didn't have to confront 'woke' society are merely dispirited at not enjoying the unfettered benefits of being in the power position of racial overlord.

Isn't this a perfect example of why we are not supposed to go here on this board?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Isn't this a perfect example of why we are not supposed to go here on this board?

yes