The hobby is surely passing me by

[Bobbycee]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Judging past behavior by today's standards is a vexing question and a serious one. It's not an easy one. Behaviors we condemn today, and rightfully so, were generally accepted at one point. How do we view the people who condoned them at the time? I don't give them a moral free pass, and I also understand the mitigating circumstances of history.

Yes, it is easy: don't do it. It's only recently that the Woke religion has decided to take down history and cancel what was the norm of the past. It had better be a faze. Past generations didn't do it. You simply cannot use today's standards to judge past behaviors. Learn from history but you simply cannot change what already happened. If it keeps up, we'll have a sterile and conformed society like straight out of 1984.

Taking down statues of Jefferson and Washington is a tragic waste of time and energy. What do you think history is going to say about what is going on in today's outrage of the minute culture? Many of the very people who are tearing down history don't know squat about history or context of it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bobbycee

Yes, it is easy: don't do it. It's only recently that the Woke religion has decided to take down history and cancel what was the norm of the past. It had better be a faze. Past generations didn't do it. You simply cannot use today's standards to judge past behaviors. Learn from history but you simply cannot change what already happened. If it keeps up, we'll have a sterile and conformed society like straight out of 1984.

Taking down statues of Jefferson and Washington is a tragic waste of time and energy. What do you think history is going to say about what is going on in today's outrage of the minute culture? Many of the very people who are tearing down history don't know squat about history or context of it.

I think you have to be reasonable. It's one thing not to have a state Capitol fly the Confederate flag, it's quite another to take down a statue of Thomas Jefferson of all people or to change a school named for Abraham Lincoln of all people. And it's not like every famous and accomplished person of color has been a saint either.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Imagine for a moment that you are a black man. You take your son or daughter out and they ask you who Thomas Jefferson is and why there's a big statue of him in a public space. Would you want to ignore the fact that because of his race and privilege and black people's race and lack thereof, Jefferson was legally able to own people for no other reason than because they happened to look like you and your son?

Slavery and its effects are a crucial part of US history and continue to impact the daily lives of black Americans in ways many white Americans have difficulty understanding or acknowledging. The argument for taking down a Jefferson statue is not to whitewash history, but in fact just the opposite–to end the practice of publicly honoring white racists, which in itself whitewashes the horrors of slavery and racism that are intertwined with the accomplishments of celebrated white men such as Jefferson.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Imagine for a moment that you are a black man. You take your son or daughter out and they ask you who Thomas Jefferson is and why there's a big statue of him in a public space. Would you want to ignore the fact that because of his race and privilege and black people's race and lack thereof, Jefferson was legally able to own people for no other reason than because they happened to look like you and your son?

I would say that is a good discussion to have.

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Slavery and its effects are a crucial part of US history and continue to impact the daily lives of black Americans in ways many white Americans have difficulty understanding or acknowledging. The argument for taking down a Jefferson statue is not to whitewash history, but in fact just the opposite–to end the practice of publicly honoring white racists, which in itself whitewashes the horrors of slavery and racism that are intertwined with the accomplishments of celebrated white men such as Jefferson.

Slavery exists in Africa to this day, but it was abolished in this country over 150 years ago, because of the system of government founded by Jefferson and his contemporaries.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I would say that is a good discussion to have.



Slavery exists in Africa to this day, but it was abolished in this country over 150 years ago, because of the system of government founded by Jefferson and his contemporaries.

Existed long before the united states as well, but we arent talking about "those people" only those Anglo Americans "bad people"

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I would say that is a good discussion to have.

I agree, but perhaps a better discussion if it happens under different circumstances.

Originally Posted by Mark17

Slavery exists in Africa to this day

Slavery in Africa has nothing to do with my comment.

Originally Posted by Mark17

but it was abolished in this country over 150 years ago, because of the system of government founded by Jefferson and his contemporaries.

Ah yes, the ones who wrote that "all men are created equal" while denying rights to black men and all women.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Ah yes, the ones who wrote that "all men are created equal" while denying rights to black men and all women.

They also wrote about forming “a more perfect union” and set up a system of government that allowed for our society to become more inclusive, albeit sometimes slowly and with violent backlash.

That said, I always found the argument that our past sins are no longer relevant because slavery still exists in Africa today to be somewhat specious. Mainly because the underlying assumption is that the US shouldn’t be held to a higher standard. If you want our system to be held up as a model for other, developing countries (and rightfully so), achieving only somewhat better results isn’t exactly the winning argument that it’s proponents would have you believe.

But, you are correct that this probably isn’t the right time or format for such a discussion. I’ve got enough stressors in my life as it is.

[jingram058]

Hobby passing me by? There is no hobby. That ship sailed in the 1980s or 90s. It's a m(b?)illionaires club. I'm not in it.

[Eric72]

As this thread devolves into a discussion about things other than the hobby, figured I'd post a picture of card. The player is by no means a household name, he just happened to have been a ballplayer.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Imagine for a moment that you are a black man. You take your son or daughter out and they ask you who Thomas Jefferson is and why there's a big statue of him in a public space. Would you want to ignore the fact that because of his race and privilege and black people's race and lack thereof, Jefferson was legally able to own people for no other reason than because they happened to look like you and your son?

Slavery and its effects are a crucial part of US history and continue to impact the daily lives of black Americans in ways many white Americans have difficulty understanding or acknowledging. The argument for taking down a Jefferson statue is not to whitewash history, but in fact just the opposite–to end the practice of publicly honoring white racists, which in itself whitewashes the horrors of slavery and racism that are intertwined with the accomplishments of celebrated white men such as Jefferson.

You need to capitalize Black, get with the times.

[Snapolit1]

In my family there are many men/boys. I am one of 4 sons. My father one of two sons. My parents have 12 grandsons in a row. Finally a girl on the 13th try.

Out of 20 or so males, there is one step-child who is mixed race.

Most of the men/boys have played one sport or another. Trained in the off season. Usually involves logging miles jogging.

Out of the oh, 15, so of us who have jogged a bit at one point of another, basically in the same group of neighborhoods, care to guess who is the only one to be stopped by the police while running and asked for ID. Twice now.
Over say 30 years. I'm sure you can figure it out. And, yeah, he's an A student football player if anyone cares.

It's not really that complicated. I have Harvard undergrad/Harvard law friends who have been put on the pavement facedown more that once or twice. For no real reason other than someone of his race was suspected of doing something somewhere. It's not that complicated.

Deny it all you want. This is the reality dark skin people face every time they leave the house. They are treated differently and unequally from white folks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

In my family there are many men/boys. I am one of 4 sons. My father one of two sons. My parents have 12 grandsons in a row. Finally a girl on the 13th try.

Out of 20 or so males, there is one step-child who is mixed race.

Most of the men/boys have played one sport or another. Trained in the off season. Usually involves logging miles jogging.

Out of the oh, 15, so of us who have jogged a bit at one point of another, basically in the same group of neighborhoods, care to guess who is the only one to be stopped by the police while running and asked for ID. Twice now.
Over say 30 years. I'm sure you can figure it out. And, yeah, he's an A student football player if anyone cares.

It's not really that complicated. I have Harvard undergrad/Harvard law friends who have been put on the pavement facedown more that once or twice. For no real reason other than someone of his race was suspected of doing something somewhere. It's not that complicated.

Deny it all you want. This is the reality dark skin people face every time they leave the house. They are treated differently and unequally from white folks.

Yes but this is a straw man point, nobody has denied racism still exists although your statement makes an awfully big generalization. So does sexism/misogyny. And anti-Semitism. And homophobia. And so on. The question is whether removing statues changes anything.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

...question is whether removing statues changes anything.

Removing a statue absolutely changes things.

The deeper questions are (1) how significant are the changes, (2) how many people are impacted, and (3) for how long will that impact be felt?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes but this is a straw man point, nobody has denied racism still exists although your statement makes an awfully big generalization. So does sexism/misogyny. And anti-Semitism. And homophobia. And so on. The question is whether removing statues changes anything.

Well said.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes but this is a straw man point, nobody has denied racism still exists although your statement makes an awfully big generalization. So does sexism/misogyny. And anti-Semitism. And homophobia. And so on. The question is whether removing statues changes anything.

Well, as a Jew, let me tell you some of what it's meant for me.
The fact that Nazi symbols, statues, literature, and spoken word are outlawed in Germany has me sleep better. Knowing that the German nation not just acknowledges it's past but speaks the horrors of it's past as part of it's everyday today and future, make it supremely difficult for those at the extremes to magnify or romanticize it, which lets face it, is an attempt to legitimize it.

If America, as a nation that made it's very foundation and wealth off the backs of dehumanizing people of color, could authentically speak it's historical truth and describe its attempt to more authentically represent its ideals - it would reflect far better on it's self anointed image of savior of the dis-empowered and mistreated.
Do you think the countries we decry for human rights violations don't look at our society and laugh off our sanctimony because we barely practice what we preach?

This country is so far off the rails of harmony between white and black in this country, NOT because Black people have been speaking for their right to equal treatment under the eyes and practice of the law, but because certain political leaders have made it ok for far right extremists to have an equal right of an alternate truth that they are free to do whatever the hell they want regardless of zero moral equivalency and blatantly racist underpinning.

All those pining for a past where they didn't have to confront 'woke' society are merely dispirited at not enjoying the unfettered benefits of being in the power position of racial overlord.