recent auto counterfeits - the effects on auto collecting??

[mrvster]

also, but anyone can pick up a pen or a sharpie.....these are WAY TOO EASY TO FAKE!

just proven by this recent t206s ....not a few......by a ton

[BearBailey]

Sadly there will be little to no effect on auto collecting, operation bullpen and Marino were so much bigger than this and it had little effect on the industry. I hate to say it but this is so small in comparison it just won’t have the needed impact to eliminate this kind of activity. Some people want to believe and will pay no matter what. I still remember the Dilbert comic strip shortly after operation bullpen, Moses no but we can have it by next week.

[Hankphenom]

A few observations:

1) How good are you at your job? Are you perfect? Is everybody at your company perfect? I will take a wild leap and say that for just about everybody here, they're about as good at what they do as the top TPAs are at what they do. Are pilots perfect? Do you still fly? I rest my case.

2) However imperfect they might be, TPAs on both the card and autograph sides have cleaned up the hobby a LOT. I don't know the percentage, but I do know that collectors can rely on their purchases a hell of a lot more now than they could 25 years ago. Those of us who have been around that long know that it's the difference between night and day.

3) What's the total of forged cards discovered? And even granting there are many more forgeries that will never come to light, what's the total percentage of forgeries that have gotten past the top TPAs compared to the ones that haven't? I think a guess of 1% would probably be way too high.

4) In conclusion: when it comes to forgeries and fraud, things aren't perfect in our world, but they're so much better than before the TPGs came along. So how about we get back to enjoying the hobby. Or get out, if you can't stand the imperfection of it, that's everybody's choice. But for God's sake stop all the bitching and leave the rest of us alone.

[mrvster]

collectors are going to pour a lot of moola into autos, where as the dilution rate is increasing....(fake vs real)

future validation will be tough without decent provenance.....

sky is falling , collectors will just "turn a blind eye".....

nice if you have cash to burn......

investing or collecting in autos will be risky, because the fraud will only increase as proven today....

marino, t206 scam, whatever, I don't see it getter any better or solving the fraud without decent documentation or provenance...

an escalating problem with no apparent solution in sight....

[mrvster]

1 % guessed error rate on autos I think you would be wrong.....how many t206 auto cards are out there???? graded????? probably 200-300??? not sure

but finding 2 dozen or more in already a very small population is a HUGE ERROR RATE and that's just the ones found recently

yes, tps have cleaned up some of the "wild west" in the past where you basically just went on someones word....

and of course "no one is perfect" .....this is far from minimizing the scope of this latest scam of bad graded autos......tps will just cop out and say "just an opinion"....thus, decreasing our confidence in grading companies....

A FEW I can understand....the amount found recently is "more than a few", in t206 auto pop, its A TON!


showing very very very careless grading standards......basically, how can a graders really tell if the auto is legit?????? just by studying past ones????


c'mon....think about that....anyone can "study" someones auto so good, they can sign it themselves....


this is common sense

[Hankphenom]

The sky is falling, oh, woe is me, the end is near, what in the world are we gonna do now? What a bunch of bullshit.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by mrvster

it proves that tpgs are really sloppy, e not just a mistake here and there...just recently with these t206 ALOT went through......2 dozen or more and probably a lot more...

you must be heavily invested in auto stuff......I would be nervous and defensive too

75-80% of my collection is vintage cards so, once again, you are wrong! At least you’re consistent.

[mrvster]

must have struck a chord with you too


this is common sense.....can not see why such intelligent collectors here decide to poo poo this.....

well, maybe if they are heavily vested in this.....they don't want to face reality...


Paul is a stellar example.....he is heavily vested in t206 autos, yet his response was , lets figure it out! he is a true hobbyist to me......I am very impressed by Paul's handling of this.....what a pro.....

I would have shit my pants

[mrvster]

20% is still a decent amount to be worried about

[mrvster]

"chicken little" using some common sense......


hmmmmmmmmmmm..........might be out of my league


hahahaha

[mrvster]

I always wanted a personal Babe Ruth.....

can you guys cook me up an 8X10 and inscribe it:

"to chicken little johnny v you da man, HOLLA ! Babe Ruth

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by mrvster

also, but anyone can pick up a pen or a sharpie.....these are WAY TOO EASY TO FAKE!

just proven by this recent t206s ....not a few......by a ton

How long do you think it would take the average person to learn how to forge an autograph?

Is there any baseball player past or present that you think would be easy for this first time forger to get by PSA, Spence, or even SGC?

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

A few observations:

1) How good are you at your job? Are you perfect? Is everybody at your company perfect? I will take a wild leap and say that for just about everybody here, they're about as good at what they do as the top TPAs are at what they do. Are pilots perfect? Do you still fly? I rest my case.

2) However imperfect they might be, TPAs on both the card and autograph sides have cleaned up the hobby a LOT. I don't know the percentage, but I do know that collectors can rely on their purchases a hell of a lot more now than they could 25 years ago. Those of us who have been around that long know that it's the difference between night and day.

3) What's the total of forged cards discovered? And even granting there are many more forgeries that will never come to light, what's the total percentage of forgeries that have gotten past the top TPAs compared to the ones that haven't? I think a guess of 1% would probably be way too high.

4) In conclusion: when it comes to forgeries and fraud, things aren't perfect in our world, but they're so much better than before the TPGs came along. So how about we get back to enjoying the hobby. Or get out, if you can't stand the imperfection of it, that's everybody's choice. But for God's sake stop all the bitching and leave the rest of us alone.

Hi Hank, it’s JoeT and I hope all is well. FYI, you are 100% correct regarding TPGs. Before we had them, Operetion Bullpen was the first extensive effort to try and clean up the hobby. While they did a decent job of weeding out numerous fake autographs, it wasn’t until the hobby adopted several TPGs that the autograph collecting market steamrolled ahead. No authentication process is perfect but the TPGs have instilled a strong level of confidence that has resulted in a very strong hobby as we stand today. This includes card graders and autograph/game used authenticators. Like you, I don’t expect everyone to sleep well at night with regard to the process being perfect, but it sure as hell stands light years ahead of where it was. Whenever there is serious money involved there will always be thieves (autograph forgery, card doctors, etc.), and collectors will simply have to move forward and work around the acts of these malicious scumbags. Corporate America has survived serious insider trading, Enron, etc., and the memorabilia circuit will likewise continue to forge ahead.

Happy New Year to you & your family!

[mrvster]

Great question from an expert like you.....

not sure.....I guess would depend on the type of auto.......like an "Aaron Judge" doesn't look too hard.....Pujols....ect....

I would say a day or so??? maybe after a few months you wouldn't be able to tell the difference???


a true artist or someone with any talent could probably perfect it in a few hours I would assume(you know what it means to assume)


id love to hear from an auto forger!! how easy it is I'm sure

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by mrvster

Paul is a stellar example.....he is heavily vested in t206 autos, yet his response was , lets figure it out! he is a true hobbyist to me......I am very impressed by Paul's handling of this.....what a pro.....

I really appreciate this comment. Thank you for that. I obviously have a lot of thoughts about everything that’s been going on here, as well as the recent trimmed card thread. I have been keeping my thoughts to myself over the past couple of weeks because there are plenty of people who believe that I have biased opinions given how many signed cards I have in my collection.

A couple of Net54 members and other sites have said about me specifically (and similar collectors generally), “don’t trust the opinions of those that have been defrauded as they attempt to downplay the extent of the fraud.” It’s a fair concern, and one I will try not to contribute to.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by bnorth

How long do you think it would take the average person to learn how to forge an autograph?

Is there any baseball player past or present that you think would be easy for this first time forger to get by PSA, Spence, or even SGC?

+1 Thank you for this common sense! Trust me, Grad, Spence & Keating are better than people think. Especially for high end autographs. They absolutely scrutinize Ruth’s, Gehrig’s, Matty’s, etc., almost to the point where you have to worry about having a real signature declined.

[Hankphenom]

I'm just disagreeing with you, that's all. I honestly don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. Nobody's making you collect autographs, so why don't you find something you do like and talk about that?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by mrvster

Great question from an expert like you.....

not sure.....I guess would depend on the type of auto.......like an "Aaron Judge" doesn't look too hard.....Pujols....ect....

I would say a day or so??? maybe after a few months you wouldn't be able to tell the difference???


a true artist or someone with any talent could probably perfect it in a few hours I would assume(you know what it means to assume)


id love to hear from an auto forger!! how easy it is I'm sure

I am about as far from an expert on autograph forgery as you can get. I write left handed and can't even get my own auto to look the same twice in a row.

Here is a nice Pujols auto. Let me know when you have practiced enough because I would love one.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

+1 Thank you for this common sense! Trust me, Grad, Spence & Keating are better than people think. Especially for high end autographs. They absolutely scrutinize Ruth’s, Gehrig’s, Matty’s, etc., almost to the point where you have to worry about having a real signature declined.

Yeah, why waste their time with scrutinizing every autograph that walks through their door?

[mrvster]

You are a true model collector in my opinion.....a true stand up guy......one of the best on the board.....I would listen to what you had to say anyday! I have called upon your advice many times, and I'm sure I will again my friend......by no means am I and expert in any autos, nor would I ever claim to be.....

"out of my league" on them......I never claimed to be either

now, T206 scrap, some t206 ect , maybe ....and of course, I still make mistakes....


no one is perfect!


this reminds me of a story when I was a kid....

There was a Rock and Roll store in my town that sold memorabilia , especially KISS items,, ect.....my friend had a buddy that worked in the back making rock and roll clocks.......also, it was rumored that most of the autoed items were being autoed by some kid in the back....

it turned out to be true, and some kid was cranking out rock star autos like crazy with a sharpie......all of them were fake......had fake cert ect....guy that owned the store was a fraudster.......fans had no clue , and almost 100 % of the autos looked real to most people.....the kid was that good.....eventually, the fraudster went out of business and who know what else....

there are probably a ton of these stories out there related to autoed items...


I watch Grad on pawn stars.....that guy is an expert I'm sure, but he really can only render an opinion.....I'm sure he fooled all the times by some real pros......auto game is way too risky......even to the experts....


MY ENTIRE POINT- corruption everywhere, but especially in autoed items.....too easy too fake.....buyer beware......be more careful......use more provenance....use more common sense

[mrvster]

in all due respect, you have absolutely no common sense when it comes to this subject.....I am not an auto guy(I do own a few) never claim or claimed to be expert by any means, but this subject needs to be discussed because it affects everyone......especially friends of mine like Paul....when I needed advice on T206 autos, I always turned to Paul and a few other member collectors for advice....

the reason for this thread:


I don't like to see ANYONE taken advantage of!!

......and most members will vouch for my character on this(a few may not lol)


anyway, you can be ignorant and bury your head in the sand, but this is something that needs to be always discussed to educate others.....


so, I understand you disagree, which is fine.....makes for a better debate......but honestly sir, you are out of your league with common sense on this


Ben

Beauty of a PUJOLS!


that one actually looks pretty easy........another one that looks easy is Mantle (unfortunately one of my favorites)

I bought one 8X10 mantle at a flea market this summer with a COA for $60 bux.......I know it is probably 80 % fake, but looks nice I do not know why I blew $60 on it, and as soon as I did, I was laughing at myself......saying SUCKER lol

[irv]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

With all due respect.....you are WRONG!!!!! If you think just anyone can get a prominent autograph like ruth, gehrig, Mathewson, etc. past Grad, Keating, Spence, etc. you are BADLY MISTAKEN. You obviously don’t collect high end autographs so this conversation is out of your league. But, I might add, there are nearly 3,000 8, 9, 10 graded T206s on the PSA pop chart and you feel comfortable that all of those 110 year old cards miraculously retained a majority of their original factory issued condition without any tampering.....ok.....

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

+1 Thank you for this common sense! Trust me, Grad, Spence & Keating are better than people think. Especially for high end autographs. They absolutely scrutinize Ruth’s, Gehrig’s, Matty’s, etc., almost to the point where you have to worry about having a real signature declined.

But yet I have read on more than one occasion where James Spence has also rejected a previous autograph that he once deemed/certified as good?
http://autographplanet.com/forum/rip...time-guarantee

I wasn't around earlier in the hobby when you and some others said the hobby was fraught with bad nefarious things and if it wasn't for the TPA's and authenticators, things would be far worse today.
I personally don't buy that. I think these guys like JSA and PSA/DNA saw an opportunity to capitalize on that fear giving the falsehood all will be good again, as long as you send money our way.

How many times have we seen bad cards, bad auto's, and heard of stories about favorable grades granted to favorable submitters? The list of shenanigans is longer than both my arms put together.

"While the specialists say their services have cleaned up an industry rife with fraud, critics say their "expert authentication" is little more than pseudoscience used to generate millions in profits at collectors' expense"
https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/a...siness-6395264

I can understand people defending their actions/reputation as I am sure, like one member who admitted he profited from peoples ignorance of what these TPAs and authenticators deliver, many have a lot to lose.

Personally, and I know I am not the only one who thinks this, but in order to keep the hobby healthy and progressing forward, these shenanigans need to be exposed and stopped, not defended.

[mrvster]

WoW!

I couldn't have said it myself better! thanks for the back up


I , since I don't own any high end autos, am not qualified and this conversation is "out of my league"

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by irv

But yet I have read on more than one occasion where James Spence has also rejected a previous autograph that he once deemed/certified as good?
http://autographplanet.com/forum/rip...time-guarantee

I wasn't around earlier in the hobby when you and some others said the hobby was fraught with bad nefarious things and if it wasn't for the TPA's and authenticators, things would be far worse today.
I personally don't buy that. I think these guys like JSA and PSA/DNA saw an opportunity to capitalize on that fear giving the falsehood all will be good again, as long as you send money our way.

How many times have we seen bad cards, bad auto's, and heard of stories about favorable grades granted to favorable submitters? The list of shenanigans is longer than both my arms put together.

"While the specialists say their services have cleaned up an industry rife with fraud, critics say their "expert authentication" is little more than pseudoscience used to generate millions in profits at collectors' expense"
https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/a...siness-6395264

I can understand people defending their actions/reputation as I am sure, like one member who admitted he profited from peoples ignorance of what these TPAs and authenticators deliver, many have a lot to lose.

Personally, and I know I am not the only one who thinks this, but in order to keep the hobby healthy and progressing forward, these shenanigans need to be exposed and stopped, not defended.

It actually happened to me about 10 years ago. Bought a high-end autograph that had a Spence PSA LOA. When I asked Spence to issue me a JSA LOA, he declined it after a few days, stating he uncovered more facts relating to the autograph that made it no good. As a matter of fact, Spence was right, and I had to eat crow. Spence sat me down and thoroughly explained why the autograph was no good, going through his amazing exemplar file with me to unquestionably prove his point. Was i pissed....yes. Did I stop collecting autographs....NO. Crap like that happens, but for the most part, I’ve been fortunate to collect a number of great autographs that I am comfortable with, regardless of the associated PSA & JSA LOAs I also have. Does it get frustrating sometimes....sure. But I roll with the punches and continue to use BOTH my educated judgement along with the opinions of the hobby experts. It is what it is.

[mrvster]

logical solutions the tps maybe able to reduce the error rate:

1) have a panel of experts look at each auto(if jsa is on site......and if only 1 or 2 authenticators are present, have experts on staff remotely look at scans as the on site graders look at it physically)

2) keep a data base of cards graded and cert #'s and scans....this way cards can get cross checked(even if re slabbed)

3) have grading companies "freely" share data to reduce fraud and work together to help the industry as a whole

4) ask for "provenance" of the signed pieces- paper work , photos , witness accounts, letters, ect

5) include a report to reflect these things

6) have different "tiers" of being authenticated- example tier 1 = only an "opinion" card or item- has no provenance , but graders "feels" it looks as if were authentic tier 2 = piece or card with original origin story and documentation tier 3 = documentation, photos ect...


so tier 1 tier 2 or tier 3 in confidence of authenticity(higher tier, more likely it is authentic)

7) btw- PSA DNA- do they actually conduct DNA TESTS?????????

maybe they can somehow in the future actually dna pieces for and detect something that way?????

not sure....


these are just some quick thoughts about how TPGers can "tighten" up standards on these pieces

[deeg23]

I didn’t read this whole thread, but these new developments won’t really deter me from buying some autographs! Nobody is perfect and I’m just glad these fakes were caught and removed from the hobby!

The autograph hobby still seems strong even after Operation Bullpen happened, so I figure if it can overcome something of that magnitude, it can overcome this!

My two cents 😊

[ruth_rookie]

What is just as scary and frustrating for me as slabbed doctored cards and forged t206’s is having genuinely un-doctored cards get regected as trimmed, altered stock, etc. I have a ‘53 topps Mantle that would easily grade an 8 that came back EVID-TRIM by PSA. Haven’t tried SGC yet but will soon. The card was busted out of a pack by my dad, then handed down to me. It was his prized possession, and I know for a fact it hasn’t been altered. Happens to a whole bunch of collectors I’m sure. So we have altered cards that are slabbed in 8 and 9 holders selling for buttloads of cash, and I may only be able to slab mine in A. How f’d up is that.....

Sorry. Rant over!

[mrvster]

Wow!!

that sucks......too bad there was no solid way to prove to them.....a trim is probably a little tough to tell on some cards....

there should be a way to "dispute the grade" and try to prove provenance....

its tough in your case, but they should have multiple graders look at a "disputed" card.....I really wanted to start a grading company a few years back due to these stories

[mrvster]

I wouldn't suggest you read this thread then

sometimes ignorance is bliss......

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by mrvster

I wouldn't suggest you read this thread then

sometimes ignorance is bliss......

He can read the thread. Like other “knowledgeable” autograph collectors, he KNOWS the process isn’t perfect and forged scripts can work their way into TPG holders. BTW, another horror story (Jason’s plight) of a card that has been erroneously evaluated by a TPG. Once again PROVING the point that the WHOLE TPG PROCESS is imperfect, not just autographs. Yet, through it all, the vast number of hobby collecting angles continue to thrive. Face it, this T206 autograph forgery incident, despicable as it was, will not destroy the autograph collecting community. Life goes on.....you should too....

[ruth_rookie]

Originally Posted by mrvster

I really wanted to start a grading company a few years back due to these stories

You should go for it... YOLO! Hell, I’ll be your first customer and you give me a much deserved NM-MT 8.

[mrvster]

he chose not to read the thread, because he said not concerned after operation dug out......that must have cleaned out all the fraud, and the auto market recovered.....

I know the auto market won't collapse because of that post alone......goes to show, some collectors would rather ignore the problem, than be part of the solution..poster didn't even want to read the thread...didn't even want to attempt to brainstorm a solution..so they will blindly collect the autos anyway....ignorance is bliss.....just blindly accept what the opinion of the tpg is...

of course there are problems detecting trimmed cards....some probably are a little tough to detect.....

BUT JUST ADMIT IT!


then let's come up with solutions...

we are the customers and should demand better service....

like more provenance or extra graders on the piece/card...ect....

demand better service so shit like this is reduced even more ....both with autos and regular cards....

the hardcore auto collectors are definitely not going to want to hear a certain percentage of the collection is fake....I know I wouldn't want to think that if I was very heavily vested in autos....

fact is, just to easy to copy and fake autos and it was proven again on a fairly large scale....

I'm sure that was just the tip of the ice berg!! '33 goudeys 52 topps ect ect...

very sad that some don't want to be part of the solution, bury their heads in the sand, and accept such huge blunders WHICH COULD EASILY be avoided...


vintageclout, use some clout if you are a "big baller" auto guy and demand better standards....

since you are in a "big league" auto collector and I am not.....you obviously are super wise

[mrvster]

that Mantle is sweet! congrats!

I really have been interested in starting a grading company for many years....

I had a lot of expert collectors on board....(from here)

I wanted to start one because there was some fraud from that guy pat when he tried to pass off a brown old mill printer scrap and got it into an sgc holder....


I had a similar scare and made sure all my scraps were legit....it made me realize how important it was to make sure my cards were legit.....



my grading company idea I was working on 5 years ago:

I wanted to call my company "T206 Experts"

and I had many on board(including Erick summers who designed a slab/flip for me)

I had many ideas......one was to assemble actual hobby experts and veteran collectors, who would collaborate and actually have multiple graders on each card.....to document each card......get a scan and data base....and try to reduce any fraud on T206....especially after that pat scrap scare...


Some of my "board of experts" included - Chris B, Steve B, Erick S, Tim C, Jim R, Ted, Adam, Pete, Jantz, Hank L , just to name a few....and about 30 or more heavy hitters and computer/resolution / print experts/hobby veterans./ ect.........true collectors and experts who would have had 1000 years of cumulative experience......and 90% were being recruited by me from this board...


each card , basically, I wanted a group opinion on each......report cards.....confidence of graders.......ect.....many cool ideas and concepts to reduce any type of fraud when it came to T206 especially scraps....

who knows, maybe I will still persue this in the future....


point being- WE NEED BETTER GRADING STANDARDS!!!


especially when it comes to fraud like these autos....


similar to my grading company idea of T206 experts, similar could be done with an "auto" division of a grading company.....put more graders on the cards collaboratively !!!reduce the error rate.....gaurentee what you grade, or don't slab it!!! give confidence reports...ect...ect


there are literally hundreds of ideas to reduce this kind of fraud...


but having these standards will cost more money......let's face it, no matter how many safety checks, graders ect, mistakes will get by, but HELL, at least start putting more systems in place and demand better standards from the grading companies to reduce this type of fraud

even if some more cost is absorbed by the consumer, if the standards are better, more confidence, better quality, more value......


the first step is to keep these problems in the fore front.....and continually strive to improve grading standards to reduce these types of nightmares to zero defects or at least as close to zero as possible....

[ruth_rookie]

Originally Posted by irv

How many times have we seen bad cards, bad auto's, and heard of stories about favorable grades granted to favorable submitters? The list of shenanigans is longer than both my arms put together.

"While the specialists say their services have cleaned up an industry rife with fraud, critics say their "expert authentication" is little more than pseudoscience used to generate millions in profits at collectors' expense"
https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/a...siness-6395264ed.

That’s a very revealing and scary article. A quote: “The agency estimates that as much as 90% of the sports collectibles market is bogus...”

Wow!!!!

[ruth_rookie]

Originally Posted by mrvster

that Mantle is sweet! congrats!

I really have been interested in starting a grading company for many years....

I had a lot of expert collectors on board....(from here)

I wanted to start one because there was some fraud from that guy pat when he tried to pass off a brown old mill printer scrap and got it into an sgc holder....


I had a similar scare and made sure all my scraps were legit....it made me realize how important it was to make sure my cards were legit.....



my grading company idea I was working on 5 years ago:

I wanted to call my company "T206 Experts"

and I had many on board(including Erick summers who designed a slab/flip for me)

I had many ideas......one was to assemble actual hobby experts and veteran collectors, who would collaborate and actually have multiple graders on each card.....to document each card......get a scan and data base....and try to reduce any fraud on T206....especially after that pat scrap scare...


Some of my "board of experts" included - Chris B, Steve B, Erick S, Tim C, Jim R, Ted, Adam, Pete, Jantz, Hank L , just to name a few....and about 30 or more heavy hitters and computer/resolution / print experts/hobby veterans./ ect.........true collectors and experts who would have had 1000 years of cumulative experience......and 90% were being recruited by me from this board...


each card , basically, I wanted a group opinion on each......report cards.....confidence of graders.......ect.....many cool ideas and concepts to reduce any type of fraud when it came to T206 especially scraps....

who knows, maybe I will still persue this in the future....


point being- WE NEED BETTER GRADING STANDARDS!!!


especially when it comes to fraud like these autos....


similar to my grading company idea of T206 experts, similar could be done with an "auto" division of a grading company.....put more graders on the cards collaboratively !!!reduce the error rate.....gaurentee what you grade, or don't slab it!!! give confidence reports...ect...ect


there are literally hundreds of ideas to reduce this kind of fraud...


but having these standards will cost more money......let's face it, no matter how many safety checks, graders ect, mistakes will get by, but HELL, at least start putting more systems in place and demand better standards from the grading companies to reduce this type of fraud

even if some more cost is absorbed by the consumer, if the standards are better, more confidence, better quality, more value......


the first step is to keep these problems in the fore front.....and continually strive to improve grading standards to reduce these types of nightmares to zero defects or at least as close to zero as possible....

Sounds like an amazing amount of collaborative thought went into it. That’s one of the many upsides of this hobby. There are WAY more folks interested in improving the integrity of the hobby than there are assholes who are perfectly content to destroy it so long as they make their fortune via fakes and forgeries. We just have to continue doing exactly what this community has done for years— outing them and striving to right the ship. Won’t happen overnight, but as long as we stay vigilant and determined, we’ll beat the bastards!

And regarding my Mantle, the old man would roll over if he knew the ONLY material possession he cared about doesn’t even pass the smell test by the most “respected” grading company in the industry. I remember him removing it from his safe from time to time. He’d gaze at in awe and tell me stories about the amazing Mick he watched play when he was a kid. He made me promise not to tell anyone he had a “mint Mickey Mantle” because he was afraid someone would come in and steal it. He was absolutely convinced it would be worth a million bucks someday...LOL. Not in an Authentic holder, dad. Sorry ��

[mrvster]

Thanks so much.......I can't agree with you more!
absolutely spot on


That Mantle does look "pack fresh".......I can see why your dad loved it so much.....very touching story ......please don't ever sell or trade that card!

it will get justice one day......if I had my grading company going and we expanded into other cards, I would make sure that card got the grade it deserves....

a card like that needs provenance.....back story......it should all come with the card.....then have the extensive panel research the card, and get it in the right holder.....a report.....photos....ect.....

it would be sweet to have almost like a mini bio to accompany a card...like a "write up" from you, with your auto, drivers lics, ect.....some kind of back story....documentation, photo.....attach this to the report and flip/cert number with the proper grade.....


your dad is smiling still keep that card in the family....if I ever get a grading company one day, your card will be #1 on my list

ALMOST LIKE A JUSTICE FOR CARDS!

[mrvster]

looking at your card more, it is an absolute blazer! that should be a solid 8 all day, maybe better....

the gloss is amazing from the scan

[ruth_rookie]

Originally Posted by mrvster

your dad is smiling still keep that card in the family....if I ever get a grading company one day, your card will be #1 on my list

ALMOST LIKE A JUSTICE FOR CARDS!

Thanks brother. That means more than you know. This discussion got me thinking, and I wonder if the TPG’s look at your submission history before grading your new submission. I can envision a situation where this smoking hot, potentially $50k card arrives. They say “wow! This is too good to be true”. So they pull my account history up and see that I’ve submitted nothing but $500 to $1000 cards over the last decade. But now he has this five-figure gem? Yeah right dude. You either hit the lotto or trimmed a mid-grade card. Too good to be true considering the low POP on high-grade ‘53 Mantles, so no need to go through the motions with this one.... TRIMMED!!

What sucks too is I was so convinced it’s legit that I put a declared a value of $24k on the sub form. Wanted to do the right thing and pay what is right to get it slabbed. If I had even the slightest fear that it was trimmed I would have declared a value of $500 and paid a minimal grading fee. So not only did it come back without a numerical grade, I paid $900 to have it deemed worthless!!!

[mrvster]

you are a smart and honest dude....you are the kind of collector that improves our hobby........your dad was proud of that card, and every right he should be! it is an absolute beauty and I can see why he kept it locked up.......2 semi soft top corners would keep it from a 9....id have to see the back....and see the card in person, but if your dad pulled that from a pack and kept it locked up, no WAY is it trimmed(only from the factory).....

that card is actually PRICELESS - being your dads pride and joy.....do not ever let that go, trust me

it will get the proper grade one day.......especially if I had ever started a grading company.....I would take all factors into account before "rendering" a decision.....some fact cut cards prob look "trimmed" just from production.....I'm sure it's possible....some graders just need to evaluate cards a little better, get more opinions from other experts or even other companies, put more time on a card , especially at a $900.00 PRICE TAG

what a "rip off".....think about this, HOW CAN YOU DECLARE THE VALUE-declared value is subjective and just really not measurable.... by just guessing????you can't because they haven't assigned a grade!! how corrupt....that doesn't seem right???? also, if they deem the card "AUTH" then waive the fee!!! you already got screwed , I am sure, as soon as you wrote the check and submitted it unfortunately.... charge a "nominal fee" if card fails the inspection basically.....card was worth $25 k to you if it was graded 9 or a 10 or more...

it's so wrong on so many levels.....

I read that article again by IRV.....wow


Jason- beautiful, priceless card

[deeg23]

Originally Posted by mrvster

he chose not to read the thread, because he said not concerned after operation dug out......that must have cleaned out all the fraud, and the auto market recovered.....

I know the auto market won't collapse because of that post alone......goes to show, some collectors would rather ignore the problem, than be part of the solution..poster didn't even want to read the thread...didn't even want to attempt to brainstorm a solution..so they will blindly collect the autos anyway....ignorance is bliss.....just blindly accept what the opinion of the tpg is...

of course there are problems detecting trimmed cards....some probably are a little tough to detect.....

BUT JUST ADMIT IT!


then let's come up with solutions...

we are the customers and should demand better service....

like more provenance or extra graders on the piece/card...ect....

demand better service so shit like this is reduced even more ....both with autos and regular cards....

the hardcore auto collectors are definitely not going to want to hear a certain percentage of the collection is fake....I know I wouldn't want to think that if I was very heavily vested in autos....

fact is, just to easy to copy and fake autos and it was proven again on a fairly large scale....

I'm sure that was just the tip of the ice berg!! '33 goudeys 52 topps ect ect...

very sad that some don't want to be part of the solution, bury their heads in the sand, and accept such huge blunders WHICH COULD EASILY be avoided...


vintageclout, use some clout if you are a "big baller" auto guy and demand better standards....

since you are in a "big league" auto collector and I am not.....you obviously are super wise

Okay, I don’t think I said whole in my original post. I didn’t read the WHOLE thread! I stopped early on because it just started to get into bickering back and forth and THAT’S what I was ignoring 😊 The topic itself is interesting! I actually posed the same question over on SCN, but I think it got overlooked haha I’m 24 and started collecting around 17 or so. I wasn’t really around for the whole Operation Bullpen fiasco. I don’t know what autograph collecting was like before that happened, and I don’t know the full effect it had on the hobby shortly after. That was actually part of the question I asked on SCN. In present day, autographs still seem to be widely collected from my limited point of view, which is why I said if that couldn’t stop people from buying autographs then I’m sure this won’t affect it much at all! I’d be interested to hear what others experiences were surrounding that.

I’ll preface this by saying I don’t submit too many autographs to TPG’s as I usually just get them at shows or send to private signings. As for that side of things, I think it would be cool to have a camera at every signing table and you get a picture of your item being signed right then and there and they just build that cost into the price of the autograph. I figure people are already spending hundreds of dollars on a single auto, so what’s $10 or $20 more 🤷🏻*♂️ Or have people pay extra for it. Idk! I haven’t done any analysis on it haha I’d personally like to see it be a requirement. This would be nice for cards because I usually get rookie cards signed and I don’t want a stinkin’ sticker on the back of it! It’d be cool if there was some sort of invisible ink to put on cards that won’t ruin them too. Plus, it’ll help eliminate the cases of people bringing up random items that they brought from home to get stickered. Maybe even put a GoPro on the head of the athlete signing and you get the video of the encounter too (half joking &#128522.

I don’t know much about the current process they have when analyzing the autographs or who is doing it when people send in for review, but I think having multiple people look at it would be great because I know sometimes opinions can differ. Again, probably not cost effective, so raise the price! I’d rather them raise the prices to have more eyes look at it and be as accurate as possible than being inexpensive, quick, and sloppy. A little transparency would be nice too. Perhaps saying who it is that reviewed the autograph.

[ruth_rookie]

Originally Posted by mrvster

your dad is smiling still keep that card in the family....if I ever get a grading company one day, your card will be #1 on my list

ALMOST LIKE A JUSTICE FOR CARDS!

Thanks brother. That means more than you know. This discussion got me thinking, and I wonder if the TPG’s look at your submission history before grading your new submission. I can envision a situation where this smoking hot, potentially $50k card arrives. They say “wow! This is too good to be true”. So they pull my account history up and see that I’ve submitted nothing but $500 to $1000 cards over the last decade. But now he has this five-figure gem? Yeah right dude. You either hit the lotto or trimmed a mid-grade card. Too good to be true considering the low POP on high-grade ‘53 Mantles, so no need to go through the motions with this one.... TRIMMED!!

What sucks too is I was so convinced it’s legit that I put a declared a value of $24k on the sub form. Wanted to do the right thing and pay what is right to get it slapped. If I had even the slightest fear that it was trimmed I would have declared a value of $500 and paid a minimal grading fee. So not only did it come back without a numerical grade, I paid $900 to have it deemed worthless!!!

[mrvster]

first of all....thanks for the post! I know sometimes we bicker here, but it's all for the good of our hobby.....we debate a lot on this board and a lot of positive does come out of it!

thanks for reading the whole post, because sorting through the crap(I never back down when right, and won't let other push me around or put me down), as I am no better than you even with your limited experience, you are quite wise already!


Your ideas are absolutely BRILLIANT! so simple, yet so effective!WOW

this is what I'm talking about.....the buzz phrase "moving forward", let's safeguard.....the photo opt at the signing is just AWESOME AWESOME IDEA! not sure why it's not offered already, it should be


I like the invisible ink, and ideas "outside the box" another catch phrase I hate


we live in a society of tech advances, need this to work for us, not against....

I'm sure new methods ect can be used in the future detecting fraud and a push should be for documentation and provenance

[mrvster]

btw.....my mom passed two years ago.....I can't tell you how much I miss her, wordsjust can't describe......

she bought me an uncut sheet of 1982 topps from a shopping mall baseball card show in 1982....it has a cal ripken on it......I had it rolled up in a closet for years......I forgot about it almost.....has some damage now, but, by far, is my most cherished card / piece I own.....

it's the memory of us together in the mall and the time we spent together...


I wouldn't sell it trade it for anything, not even a wagner


brings a tear to my eye just typing this....

Jason, cherish that mantle like your dad