recent auto counterfeits - the effects on auto collecting??

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by mrvster

also, but anyone can pick up a pen or a sharpie.....these are WAY TOO EASY TO FAKE!

just proven by this recent t206s ....not a few......by a ton

How long do you think it would take the average person to learn how to forge an autograph?

Is there any baseball player past or present that you think would be easy for this first time forger to get by PSA, Spence, or even SGC?

[mrvster]

Great question from an expert like you.....

not sure.....I guess would depend on the type of auto.......like an "Aaron Judge" doesn't look too hard.....Pujols....ect....

I would say a day or so??? maybe after a few months you wouldn't be able to tell the difference???


a true artist or someone with any talent could probably perfect it in a few hours I would assume(you know what it means to assume)


id love to hear from an auto forger!! how easy it is I'm sure

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by mrvster

Great question from an expert like you.....

not sure.....I guess would depend on the type of auto.......like an "Aaron Judge" doesn't look too hard.....Pujols....ect....

I would say a day or so??? maybe after a few months you wouldn't be able to tell the difference???


a true artist or someone with any talent could probably perfect it in a few hours I would assume(you know what it means to assume)


id love to hear from an auto forger!! how easy it is I'm sure

I am about as far from an expert on autograph forgery as you can get. I write left handed and can't even get my own auto to look the same twice in a row.

Here is a nice Pujols auto. Let me know when you have practiced enough because I would love one.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by bnorth

How long do you think it would take the average person to learn how to forge an autograph?

Is there any baseball player past or present that you think would be easy for this first time forger to get by PSA, Spence, or even SGC?

+1 Thank you for this common sense! Trust me, Grad, Spence & Keating are better than people think. Especially for high end autographs. They absolutely scrutinize Ruth’s, Gehrig’s, Matty’s, etc., almost to the point where you have to worry about having a real signature declined.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

+1 Thank you for this common sense! Trust me, Grad, Spence & Keating are better than people think. Especially for high end autographs. They absolutely scrutinize Ruth’s, Gehrig’s, Matty’s, etc., almost to the point where you have to worry about having a real signature declined.

Yeah, why waste their time with scrutinizing every autograph that walks through their door?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

With all due respect.....you are WRONG!!!!! If you think just anyone can get a prominent autograph like ruth, gehrig, Mathewson, etc. past Grad, Keating, Spence, etc. you are BADLY MISTAKEN. You obviously don’t collect high end autographs so this conversation is out of your league. But, I might add, there are nearly 3,000 8, 9, 10 graded T206s on the PSA pop chart and you feel comfortable that all of those 110 year old cards miraculously retained a majority of their original factory issued condition without any tampering.....ok.....

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

+1 Thank you for this common sense! Trust me, Grad, Spence & Keating are better than people think. Especially for high end autographs. They absolutely scrutinize Ruth’s, Gehrig’s, Matty’s, etc., almost to the point where you have to worry about having a real signature declined.

But yet I have read on more than one occasion where James Spence has also rejected a previous autograph that he once deemed/certified as good?
http://autographplanet.com/forum/rip...time-guarantee

I wasn't around earlier in the hobby when you and some others said the hobby was fraught with bad nefarious things and if it wasn't for the TPA's and authenticators, things would be far worse today.
I personally don't buy that. I think these guys like JSA and PSA/DNA saw an opportunity to capitalize on that fear giving the falsehood all will be good again, as long as you send money our way.

How many times have we seen bad cards, bad auto's, and heard of stories about favorable grades granted to favorable submitters? The list of shenanigans is longer than both my arms put together.

"While the specialists say their services have cleaned up an industry rife with fraud, critics say their "expert authentication" is little more than pseudoscience used to generate millions in profits at collectors' expense"
https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/a...siness-6395264

I can understand people defending their actions/reputation as I am sure, like one member who admitted he profited from peoples ignorance of what these TPAs and authenticators deliver, many have a lot to lose.

Personally, and I know I am not the only one who thinks this, but in order to keep the hobby healthy and progressing forward, these shenanigans need to be exposed and stopped, not defended.

[mrvster]

WoW!

I couldn't have said it myself better! thanks for the back up


I , since I don't own any high end autos, am not qualified and this conversation is "out of my league"

[mrvster]

logical solutions the tps maybe able to reduce the error rate:

1) have a panel of experts look at each auto(if jsa is on site......and if only 1 or 2 authenticators are present, have experts on staff remotely look at scans as the on site graders look at it physically)

2) keep a data base of cards graded and cert #'s and scans....this way cards can get cross checked(even if re slabbed)

3) have grading companies "freely" share data to reduce fraud and work together to help the industry as a whole

4) ask for "provenance" of the signed pieces- paper work , photos , witness accounts, letters, ect

5) include a report to reflect these things

6) have different "tiers" of being authenticated- example tier 1 = only an "opinion" card or item- has no provenance , but graders "feels" it looks as if were authentic tier 2 = piece or card with original origin story and documentation tier 3 = documentation, photos ect...


so tier 1 tier 2 or tier 3 in confidence of authenticity(higher tier, more likely it is authentic)

7) btw- PSA DNA- do they actually conduct DNA TESTS?????????

maybe they can somehow in the future actually dna pieces for and detect something that way?????

not sure....


these are just some quick thoughts about how TPGers can "tighten" up standards on these pieces

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by irv

But yet I have read on more than one occasion where James Spence has also rejected a previous autograph that he once deemed/certified as good?
http://autographplanet.com/forum/rip...time-guarantee

I wasn't around earlier in the hobby when you and some others said the hobby was fraught with bad nefarious things and if it wasn't for the TPA's and authenticators, things would be far worse today.
I personally don't buy that. I think these guys like JSA and PSA/DNA saw an opportunity to capitalize on that fear giving the falsehood all will be good again, as long as you send money our way.

How many times have we seen bad cards, bad auto's, and heard of stories about favorable grades granted to favorable submitters? The list of shenanigans is longer than both my arms put together.

"While the specialists say their services have cleaned up an industry rife with fraud, critics say their "expert authentication" is little more than pseudoscience used to generate millions in profits at collectors' expense"
https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/a...siness-6395264

I can understand people defending their actions/reputation as I am sure, like one member who admitted he profited from peoples ignorance of what these TPAs and authenticators deliver, many have a lot to lose.

Personally, and I know I am not the only one who thinks this, but in order to keep the hobby healthy and progressing forward, these shenanigans need to be exposed and stopped, not defended.

It actually happened to me about 10 years ago. Bought a high-end autograph that had a Spence PSA LOA. When I asked Spence to issue me a JSA LOA, he declined it after a few days, stating he uncovered more facts relating to the autograph that made it no good. As a matter of fact, Spence was right, and I had to eat crow. Spence sat me down and thoroughly explained why the autograph was no good, going through his amazing exemplar file with me to unquestionably prove his point. Was i pissed....yes. Did I stop collecting autographs....NO. Crap like that happens, but for the most part, I’ve been fortunate to collect a number of great autographs that I am comfortable with, regardless of the associated PSA & JSA LOAs I also have. Does it get frustrating sometimes....sure. But I roll with the punches and continue to use BOTH my educated judgement along with the opinions of the hobby experts. It is what it is.

[deeg23]

I didn’t read this whole thread, but these new developments won’t really deter me from buying some autographs! Nobody is perfect and I’m just glad these fakes were caught and removed from the hobby!

The autograph hobby still seems strong even after Operation Bullpen happened, so I figure if it can overcome something of that magnitude, it can overcome this!

My two cents 😊

[ruth_rookie]

Originally Posted by irv

How many times have we seen bad cards, bad auto's, and heard of stories about favorable grades granted to favorable submitters? The list of shenanigans is longer than both my arms put together.

"While the specialists say their services have cleaned up an industry rife with fraud, critics say their "expert authentication" is little more than pseudoscience used to generate millions in profits at collectors' expense"
https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/a...siness-6395264ed.

That’s a very revealing and scary article. A quote: “The agency estimates that as much as 90% of the sports collectibles market is bogus...”

Wow!!!!

[mrvster]

You are a true model collector in my opinion.....a true stand up guy......one of the best on the board.....I would listen to what you had to say anyday! I have called upon your advice many times, and I'm sure I will again my friend......by no means am I and expert in any autos, nor would I ever claim to be.....

"out of my league" on them......I never claimed to be either

now, T206 scrap, some t206 ect , maybe ....and of course, I still make mistakes....


no one is perfect!


this reminds me of a story when I was a kid....

There was a Rock and Roll store in my town that sold memorabilia , especially KISS items,, ect.....my friend had a buddy that worked in the back making rock and roll clocks.......also, it was rumored that most of the autoed items were being autoed by some kid in the back....

it turned out to be true, and some kid was cranking out rock star autos like crazy with a sharpie......all of them were fake......had fake cert ect....guy that owned the store was a fraudster.......fans had no clue , and almost 100 % of the autos looked real to most people.....the kid was that good.....eventually, the fraudster went out of business and who know what else....

there are probably a ton of these stories out there related to autoed items...


I watch Grad on pawn stars.....that guy is an expert I'm sure, but he really can only render an opinion.....I'm sure he fooled all the times by some real pros......auto game is way too risky......even to the experts....


MY ENTIRE POINT- corruption everywhere, but especially in autoed items.....too easy too fake.....buyer beware......be more careful......use more provenance....use more common sense

[mrvster]

in all due respect, you have absolutely no common sense when it comes to this subject.....I am not an auto guy(I do own a few) never claim or claimed to be expert by any means, but this subject needs to be discussed because it affects everyone......especially friends of mine like Paul....when I needed advice on T206 autos, I always turned to Paul and a few other member collectors for advice....

the reason for this thread:


I don't like to see ANYONE taken advantage of!!

......and most members will vouch for my character on this(a few may not lol)


anyway, you can be ignorant and bury your head in the sand, but this is something that needs to be always discussed to educate others.....


so, I understand you disagree, which is fine.....makes for a better debate......but honestly sir, you are out of your league with common sense on this


Ben

Beauty of a PUJOLS!


that one actually looks pretty easy........another one that looks easy is Mantle (unfortunately one of my favorites)

I bought one 8X10 mantle at a flea market this summer with a COA for $60 bux.......I know it is probably 80 % fake, but looks nice I do not know why I blew $60 on it, and as soon as I did, I was laughing at myself......saying SUCKER lol