recent auto counterfeits - the effects on auto collecting??

[mrvster]

it proves that tpgs are really sloppy, e not just a mistake here and there...just recently with these t206 ALOT went through......2 dozen or more and probably a lot more...

you must be heavily invested in auto stuff......I would be nervous and defensive too

[mrvster]

also, but anyone can pick up a pen or a sharpie.....these are WAY TOO EASY TO FAKE!

just proven by this recent t206s ....not a few......by a ton

[BearBailey]

Sadly there will be little to no effect on auto collecting, operation bullpen and Marino were so much bigger than this and it had little effect on the industry. I hate to say it but this is so small in comparison it just won’t have the needed impact to eliminate this kind of activity. Some people want to believe and will pay no matter what. I still remember the Dilbert comic strip shortly after operation bullpen, Moses no but we can have it by next week.

[mrvster]

collectors are going to pour a lot of moola into autos, where as the dilution rate is increasing....(fake vs real)

future validation will be tough without decent provenance.....

sky is falling , collectors will just "turn a blind eye".....

nice if you have cash to burn......

investing or collecting in autos will be risky, because the fraud will only increase as proven today....

marino, t206 scam, whatever, I don't see it getter any better or solving the fraud without decent documentation or provenance...

an escalating problem with no apparent solution in sight....

[mrvster]

1 % guessed error rate on autos I think you would be wrong.....how many t206 auto cards are out there???? graded????? probably 200-300??? not sure

but finding 2 dozen or more in already a very small population is a HUGE ERROR RATE and that's just the ones found recently

yes, tps have cleaned up some of the "wild west" in the past where you basically just went on someones word....

and of course "no one is perfect" .....this is far from minimizing the scope of this latest scam of bad graded autos......tps will just cop out and say "just an opinion"....thus, decreasing our confidence in grading companies....

A FEW I can understand....the amount found recently is "more than a few", in t206 auto pop, its A TON!


showing very very very careless grading standards......basically, how can a graders really tell if the auto is legit?????? just by studying past ones????


c'mon....think about that....anyone can "study" someones auto so good, they can sign it themselves....


this is common sense

[Hankphenom]

The sky is falling, oh, woe is me, the end is near, what in the world are we gonna do now? What a bunch of bullshit.

[mrvster]

must have struck a chord with you too


this is common sense.....can not see why such intelligent collectors here decide to poo poo this.....

well, maybe if they are heavily vested in this.....they don't want to face reality...


Paul is a stellar example.....he is heavily vested in t206 autos, yet his response was , lets figure it out! he is a true hobbyist to me......I am very impressed by Paul's handling of this.....what a pro.....

I would have shit my pants

[mrvster]

20% is still a decent amount to be worried about

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by mrvster

Paul is a stellar example.....he is heavily vested in t206 autos, yet his response was , lets figure it out! he is a true hobbyist to me......I am very impressed by Paul's handling of this.....what a pro.....

I really appreciate this comment. Thank you for that. I obviously have a lot of thoughts about everything that’s been going on here, as well as the recent trimmed card thread. I have been keeping my thoughts to myself over the past couple of weeks because there are plenty of people who believe that I have biased opinions given how many signed cards I have in my collection.

A couple of Net54 members and other sites have said about me specifically (and similar collectors generally), “don’t trust the opinions of those that have been defrauded as they attempt to downplay the extent of the fraud.” It’s a fair concern, and one I will try not to contribute to.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by mrvster

also, but anyone can pick up a pen or a sharpie.....these are WAY TOO EASY TO FAKE!

just proven by this recent t206s ....not a few......by a ton

How long do you think it would take the average person to learn how to forge an autograph?

Is there any baseball player past or present that you think would be easy for this first time forger to get by PSA, Spence, or even SGC?

[mrvster]

Great question from an expert like you.....

not sure.....I guess would depend on the type of auto.......like an "Aaron Judge" doesn't look too hard.....Pujols....ect....

I would say a day or so??? maybe after a few months you wouldn't be able to tell the difference???


a true artist or someone with any talent could probably perfect it in a few hours I would assume(you know what it means to assume)


id love to hear from an auto forger!! how easy it is I'm sure

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by mrvster

Great question from an expert like you.....

not sure.....I guess would depend on the type of auto.......like an "Aaron Judge" doesn't look too hard.....Pujols....ect....

I would say a day or so??? maybe after a few months you wouldn't be able to tell the difference???


a true artist or someone with any talent could probably perfect it in a few hours I would assume(you know what it means to assume)


id love to hear from an auto forger!! how easy it is I'm sure

I am about as far from an expert on autograph forgery as you can get. I write left handed and can't even get my own auto to look the same twice in a row.

Here is a nice Pujols auto. Let me know when you have practiced enough because I would love one.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by bnorth

How long do you think it would take the average person to learn how to forge an autograph?

Is there any baseball player past or present that you think would be easy for this first time forger to get by PSA, Spence, or even SGC?

+1 Thank you for this common sense! Trust me, Grad, Spence & Keating are better than people think. Especially for high end autographs. They absolutely scrutinize Ruth’s, Gehrig’s, Matty’s, etc., almost to the point where you have to worry about having a real signature declined.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

+1 Thank you for this common sense! Trust me, Grad, Spence & Keating are better than people think. Especially for high end autographs. They absolutely scrutinize Ruth’s, Gehrig’s, Matty’s, etc., almost to the point where you have to worry about having a real signature declined.

Yeah, why waste their time with scrutinizing every autograph that walks through their door?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

With all due respect.....you are WRONG!!!!! If you think just anyone can get a prominent autograph like ruth, gehrig, Mathewson, etc. past Grad, Keating, Spence, etc. you are BADLY MISTAKEN. You obviously don’t collect high end autographs so this conversation is out of your league. But, I might add, there are nearly 3,000 8, 9, 10 graded T206s on the PSA pop chart and you feel comfortable that all of those 110 year old cards miraculously retained a majority of their original factory issued condition without any tampering.....ok.....

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

+1 Thank you for this common sense! Trust me, Grad, Spence & Keating are better than people think. Especially for high end autographs. They absolutely scrutinize Ruth’s, Gehrig’s, Matty’s, etc., almost to the point where you have to worry about having a real signature declined.

But yet I have read on more than one occasion where James Spence has also rejected a previous autograph that he once deemed/certified as good?
http://autographplanet.com/forum/rip...time-guarantee

I wasn't around earlier in the hobby when you and some others said the hobby was fraught with bad nefarious things and if it wasn't for the TPA's and authenticators, things would be far worse today.
I personally don't buy that. I think these guys like JSA and PSA/DNA saw an opportunity to capitalize on that fear giving the falsehood all will be good again, as long as you send money our way.

How many times have we seen bad cards, bad auto's, and heard of stories about favorable grades granted to favorable submitters? The list of shenanigans is longer than both my arms put together.

"While the specialists say their services have cleaned up an industry rife with fraud, critics say their "expert authentication" is little more than pseudoscience used to generate millions in profits at collectors' expense"
https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/a...siness-6395264

I can understand people defending their actions/reputation as I am sure, like one member who admitted he profited from peoples ignorance of what these TPAs and authenticators deliver, many have a lot to lose.

Personally, and I know I am not the only one who thinks this, but in order to keep the hobby healthy and progressing forward, these shenanigans need to be exposed and stopped, not defended.

[mrvster]

WoW!

I couldn't have said it myself better! thanks for the back up


I , since I don't own any high end autos, am not qualified and this conversation is "out of my league"

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by irv

But yet I have read on more than one occasion where James Spence has also rejected a previous autograph that he once deemed/certified as good?
http://autographplanet.com/forum/rip...time-guarantee

I wasn't around earlier in the hobby when you and some others said the hobby was fraught with bad nefarious things and if it wasn't for the TPA's and authenticators, things would be far worse today.
I personally don't buy that. I think these guys like JSA and PSA/DNA saw an opportunity to capitalize on that fear giving the falsehood all will be good again, as long as you send money our way.

How many times have we seen bad cards, bad auto's, and heard of stories about favorable grades granted to favorable submitters? The list of shenanigans is longer than both my arms put together.

"While the specialists say their services have cleaned up an industry rife with fraud, critics say their "expert authentication" is little more than pseudoscience used to generate millions in profits at collectors' expense"
https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/a...siness-6395264

I can understand people defending their actions/reputation as I am sure, like one member who admitted he profited from peoples ignorance of what these TPAs and authenticators deliver, many have a lot to lose.

Personally, and I know I am not the only one who thinks this, but in order to keep the hobby healthy and progressing forward, these shenanigans need to be exposed and stopped, not defended.

It actually happened to me about 10 years ago. Bought a high-end autograph that had a Spence PSA LOA. When I asked Spence to issue me a JSA LOA, he declined it after a few days, stating he uncovered more facts relating to the autograph that made it no good. As a matter of fact, Spence was right, and I had to eat crow. Spence sat me down and thoroughly explained why the autograph was no good, going through his amazing exemplar file with me to unquestionably prove his point. Was i pissed....yes. Did I stop collecting autographs....NO. Crap like that happens, but for the most part, I’ve been fortunate to collect a number of great autographs that I am comfortable with, regardless of the associated PSA & JSA LOAs I also have. Does it get frustrating sometimes....sure. But I roll with the punches and continue to use BOTH my educated judgement along with the opinions of the hobby experts. It is what it is.

[ruth_rookie]

Originally Posted by irv

How many times have we seen bad cards, bad auto's, and heard of stories about favorable grades granted to favorable submitters? The list of shenanigans is longer than both my arms put together.

"While the specialists say their services have cleaned up an industry rife with fraud, critics say their "expert authentication" is little more than pseudoscience used to generate millions in profits at collectors' expense"
https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/a...siness-6395264ed.

That’s a very revealing and scary article. A quote: “The agency estimates that as much as 90% of the sports collectibles market is bogus...”

Wow!!!!

[mrvster]

You are a true model collector in my opinion.....a true stand up guy......one of the best on the board.....I would listen to what you had to say anyday! I have called upon your advice many times, and I'm sure I will again my friend......by no means am I and expert in any autos, nor would I ever claim to be.....

"out of my league" on them......I never claimed to be either

now, T206 scrap, some t206 ect , maybe ....and of course, I still make mistakes....


no one is perfect!


this reminds me of a story when I was a kid....

There was a Rock and Roll store in my town that sold memorabilia , especially KISS items,, ect.....my friend had a buddy that worked in the back making rock and roll clocks.......also, it was rumored that most of the autoed items were being autoed by some kid in the back....

it turned out to be true, and some kid was cranking out rock star autos like crazy with a sharpie......all of them were fake......had fake cert ect....guy that owned the store was a fraudster.......fans had no clue , and almost 100 % of the autos looked real to most people.....the kid was that good.....eventually, the fraudster went out of business and who know what else....

there are probably a ton of these stories out there related to autoed items...


I watch Grad on pawn stars.....that guy is an expert I'm sure, but he really can only render an opinion.....I'm sure he fooled all the times by some real pros......auto game is way too risky......even to the experts....


MY ENTIRE POINT- corruption everywhere, but especially in autoed items.....too easy too fake.....buyer beware......be more careful......use more provenance....use more common sense

[mrvster]

in all due respect, you have absolutely no common sense when it comes to this subject.....I am not an auto guy(I do own a few) never claim or claimed to be expert by any means, but this subject needs to be discussed because it affects everyone......especially friends of mine like Paul....when I needed advice on T206 autos, I always turned to Paul and a few other member collectors for advice....

the reason for this thread:


I don't like to see ANYONE taken advantage of!!

......and most members will vouch for my character on this(a few may not lol)


anyway, you can be ignorant and bury your head in the sand, but this is something that needs to be always discussed to educate others.....


so, I understand you disagree, which is fine.....makes for a better debate......but honestly sir, you are out of your league with common sense on this


Ben

Beauty of a PUJOLS!


that one actually looks pretty easy........another one that looks easy is Mantle (unfortunately one of my favorites)

I bought one 8X10 mantle at a flea market this summer with a COA for $60 bux.......I know it is probably 80 % fake, but looks nice I do not know why I blew $60 on it, and as soon as I did, I was laughing at myself......saying SUCKER lol

[Hankphenom]

A few observations:

1) How good are you at your job? Are you perfect? Is everybody at your company perfect? I will take a wild leap and say that for just about everybody here, they're about as good at what they do as the top TPAs are at what they do. Are pilots perfect? Do you still fly? I rest my case.

2) However imperfect they might be, TPAs on both the card and autograph sides have cleaned up the hobby a LOT. I don't know the percentage, but I do know that collectors can rely on their purchases a hell of a lot more now than they could 25 years ago. Those of us who have been around that long know that it's the difference between night and day.

3) What's the total of forged cards discovered? And even granting there are many more forgeries that will never come to light, what's the total percentage of forgeries that have gotten past the top TPAs compared to the ones that haven't? I think a guess of 1% would probably be way too high.

4) In conclusion: when it comes to forgeries and fraud, things aren't perfect in our world, but they're so much better than before the TPGs came along. So how about we get back to enjoying the hobby. Or get out, if you can't stand the imperfection of it, that's everybody's choice. But for God's sake stop all the bitching and leave the rest of us alone.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

A few observations:

1) How good are you at your job? Are you perfect? Is everybody at your company perfect? I will take a wild leap and say that for just about everybody here, they're about as good at what they do as the top TPAs are at what they do. Are pilots perfect? Do you still fly? I rest my case.

2) However imperfect they might be, TPAs on both the card and autograph sides have cleaned up the hobby a LOT. I don't know the percentage, but I do know that collectors can rely on their purchases a hell of a lot more now than they could 25 years ago. Those of us who have been around that long know that it's the difference between night and day.

3) What's the total of forged cards discovered? And even granting there are many more forgeries that will never come to light, what's the total percentage of forgeries that have gotten past the top TPAs compared to the ones that haven't? I think a guess of 1% would probably be way too high.

4) In conclusion: when it comes to forgeries and fraud, things aren't perfect in our world, but they're so much better than before the TPGs came along. So how about we get back to enjoying the hobby. Or get out, if you can't stand the imperfection of it, that's everybody's choice. But for God's sake stop all the bitching and leave the rest of us alone.

Hi Hank, it’s JoeT and I hope all is well. FYI, you are 100% correct regarding TPGs. Before we had them, Operetion Bullpen was the first extensive effort to try and clean up the hobby. While they did a decent job of weeding out numerous fake autographs, it wasn’t until the hobby adopted several TPGs that the autograph collecting market steamrolled ahead. No authentication process is perfect but the TPGs have instilled a strong level of confidence that has resulted in a very strong hobby as we stand today. This includes card graders and autograph/game used authenticators. Like you, I don’t expect everyone to sleep well at night with regard to the process being perfect, but it sure as hell stands light years ahead of where it was. Whenever there is serious money involved there will always be thieves (autograph forgery, card doctors, etc.), and collectors will simply have to move forward and work around the acts of these malicious scumbags. Corporate America has survived serious insider trading, Enron, etc., and the memorabilia circuit will likewise continue to forge ahead.

Happy New Year to you & your family!

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by mrvster

it proves that tpgs are really sloppy, e not just a mistake here and there...just recently with these t206 ALOT went through......2 dozen or more and probably a lot more...

you must be heavily invested in auto stuff......I would be nervous and defensive too

75-80% of my collection is vintage cards so, once again, you are wrong! At least you’re consistent.