Now I know where Coach's Corners crap goes

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

What "I care about" and "Why I care about it" is none of your business, Mr. Atkatz.

Dr. Atkatz to you, Chris.

And if it's "none of my business," why do you keep posting it?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Years ago the young man who forged, among other things, high end team balls (I had a 1920's NY Giants team ball in my hands, offered to me by a conspiraor of the forger, it was a complete forgery with 20+ autographs) did the hobby serious harm and yet here we are years later and the hobby still thrives, albeit an economic slowdown in this country has had an effect.
I have a suspicion, totally unproven, that this person might have had a hand in the high end Ruth baseballs we are seeing now.
Charlie Sheen was taken in years ago, big time spenders were taken in, and yet collectors continue to buy and buy and buy.

Richard, do you know if that "young man" also forged old-time NY Yankees team-signed baseballs?

[David Atkatz]

There you go again.

[slidekellyslide]

Take it to emails or private messages...I don't care, but I'll lock this thread if it turns into another pissing match.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

Check out this Anson. I doubt it will be up long,as it has the same AMA COA as those in the OP's links.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:B:SS:US:1123

Bam!!! Gone!!!

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I sent a message to Justin Priddy through Facebook with a link to this thread and invited him to come talk to us about some of his items in this thread. I also noticed that three of my Net54 friends are friends with Justin..perhaps if they know him in real life we can get some answers from this guy.

Justin will never come over, Dan. How could he explain something like the below. Quite a few of these were sold over at Pristine Auction.

ACE.jpg

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Justin will never come over, Dan. How could he explain something like the below. Quite a few of these were sold over at Pristine Auction.

Yeah...I know...I just want him to know that his crap is getting notice.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Yeah...I know...I just want him to know that his crap is getting notice.

I appreciate you trying to reach out to him and give him an opportunity to respond to our posts.

I've tried a few times myself, but to no avail.

Justin is well aware of what is going on.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

Not this stuff again. ...

Look, you two are both VERY passionate about the mess the autograph hobby is in. Yes, the Ruth mess is a MAJOR issue, and the seemingly "automatic" PSA and JSA love on stuff.

But, Chris has exposed SO MUCH garbage, on e'thing from Ruth to Kobe Bryant to Clyde Barrow, that he provides a valuable service too.

Work together guys ..a lot of good has been done, and hopefully much more will come out of everyone trying to kill off these crooks and rid all their garbage from the Hobby.

I couldn't agree more.... I love CW for what he has done and is doing with the onslaught of forgeries. It is needed so much. I always appreciate Travis just as much for what he has done and is doing. Both are especially passionate, but when you have Travis siding with Morales and the FDE's , Houston, we have a problem. I Know Travis "EVERYBODY KNOWS ABOUT MORALES" We'll guess what.... they don't. He is despicable. Other FDE's that Rubber stamp forgeries are also equally despicable. We all know who they are by now. Alphabet soup doing the things on the inside that they do and the level of forgeries they pass and refuse to correct is equally despicable. SO please, for the Average collector and the love of God, please just stop it already, it is nauseating.

Until these 2 Major Factions (FOREVER CLUELESS RUBBER STAMPER FDE Cheater F'ers vs Alphabet soup and their too big to fail mentality, good ole boy network, refusing to admit their mistakes) come together, it's going to be a long road.

Travis just needs to wrap his noodle around the big picture on this one point, that FDE is just as harmful to the average collector as the Alphabet soup. It is really just so moronic that it is laughable from a collectors point of view.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

"EVERYBODY KNOWS ABOUT MORALES" We'll guess what.... they don't. He is despicable. Other FDE's that Rubber stamp forgeries are also equally despicable. We all know who they are by now.

Just look of the parade of FDE junk coming in on Pawn Stars and The Real Deal (new auction show). Clearly "everyone" didn't get the memo about Morales, Max, Frangipani, et. al.

[Sportsnutcards]

I get 100's of dollars of bad autographs that walk into the store every week. Most of these are from the novice collector who have no clue, but many of them paid top dollar for these autographs because they just wanted to have something signed by the player and trusted whoever they were buying it from. While JSA and PSA have made mistakes, there is no way that the amount of bad stuff certified by them is anywhere near equal to the amount of bad autographs that have been certified by the "rubber-Stampers" or from the other major dealers who were found to be selling a large amount of fakes.

[perezfan]

Agree 100%. There's no comparison. It's silly to even mention them in the same breath.

Some people here have an axe to grind... probably because one of their prized possessions was shot down at some point. There's a world of difference between a company that makes a few inevitable mistakes, and companies that knowingly and willfully authenticate bad material for the sake of profit.

[David Atkatz]

Except for the fact that the bad stuff they certify is so bad that no one with an ounce of experience would buy any of it. But a PSA certified forgery can go for $300,000 to a sophisticated collector.

So who's worse for "the hobby"?

I'm certainly not worried about being fooled by a Morales-certified fake. But a really good forgery? Certed by PSA? Yeah, that worries me.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Everyone makes mistakes. But there's a big difference between an authentication company that makes an honest mistake, and someone who gives "blanket authentication" for every autograph that crosses their desk.

I would like someone to prove to me that Chris Morales actually has a "rejection folder." If Chris Morales routinely "authenticates" crap like the items below, then I would love to see his so-called "rejection folder."

The ink is still wet on the first item shown below.

Coachs-1.jpg

Coachs-2.jpg

[RichardSimon]

You can see where the ink "welled" up on that Ott when the "signer" slowed down.
Mr Morales you and I differ on the authenticity of that item.

[thetruthisoutthere]

On that Presidents Signed Baseball certed by Morales, Lee Trythall writes "Probably one-of-a-kind." He conveniently forgets that Coach's Corner has listed multiples of Presidents Signed Baseballs.

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

You can see where the ink "welled" up on that Ott when the "signer" slowed down.
Mr Morales you and I differ on the authenticity of that item.

Interesting, bout the welled up Ink. Im learning more every day. Thx Richard. And that presidents ball..hehe. it is still wet, plus Hoover is probably signed in Sharpie

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Sportsnutcards

I get 100's of dollars of bad autographs that walk into the store every week. Most of these are from the novice collector who have no clue, but many of them paid top dollar for these autographs because they just wanted to have something signed by the player and trusted whoever they were buying it from. While JSA and PSA have made mistakes, there is no way that the amount of bad stuff certified by them is anywhere near equal to the amount of bad autographs that have been certified by the "rubber-Stampers" or from the other major dealers who were found to be selling a large amount of fakes.

the amount isn't as important as the total $ amount of realized sales. which isn't even close though. a ten dollar mantle versus a 50,000, 100,000, or 150,000 dollar or more signed ball?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by travrosty

the amount isn't as important as the total $ amount of realized sales. which isn't even close though. a ten dollar mantle versus a 50,000, 100,000, or 150,000 dollar or more signed ball?

What about 20,000 Mantles that sold anywhere between $20.00 and $100.00? Add to that 1,000 Ali signed photos that sold anywhere between $20.00 and $100.00? Etc., etc.

So the amount still isn't important?

[Sportsnutcards]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

What about 20,000 Mantles that sold anywhere between $20.00 and $100.00? Add to that 1,000 Ali signed photos that sold anywhere between $20.00 and $100.00? Etc., etc.

So the amount still isn't important?

I had a customer with brough in 6 Dozen bad Dimaggio balls who paid $125 apiece, along with a ton of other bad stuff.. Probably in total the guy had about $20K worth of stuff that was no good. I just don't think many understand how much bad stuff is out there that gets purchased by the uninformed on a daly basis.

[yanks12025]

Has anyone made up a fake auto and sent it in to get a letter from him?

[Shoeless Moe]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270888932329

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Sportsnutcards

I had a customer with brough in 6 Dozen bad Dimaggio balls who paid $125 apiece, along with a ton of other bad stuff.. Probably in total the guy had about $20K worth of stuff that was no good. I just don't think many understand how much bad stuff is out there that gets purchased by the uninformed on a daly basis.

You're right, Sportsnutcards, that not too many are aware how much bad stuff is really out there. To tell you the truth, the number is incomprehensible to the average collector; the other truth is that people don't want to believe it.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Here is that piece of crap forgery. Another piece of crap "authenticated" by Ted Taylor.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/270888932329

celeb-1.jpg

celeb-2.jpg

celeb-3.jpg

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

What about 20,000 Mantles that sold anywhere between $20.00 and $100.00? Add to that 1,000 Ali signed photos that sold anywhere between $20.00 and $100.00? Etc., etc.

So the amount still isn't important?

++1

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Except for the fact that the bad stuff they certify is so bad that no one with an ounce of experience would buy any of it. But a PSA certified forgery can go for $300,000 to a sophisticated collector.

So who's worse for "the hobby"?

I'm certainly not worried about being fooled by a Morales-certified fake. But a really good forgery? Certed by PSA? Yeah, that worries me.

For an educated/sophisticated collector such as yourself, the latter is admittedly worse. But concerning the hobby as a whole, I believe the former is worse. Hundreds of novice and new collectors entering the hobby will be burned, and this will slow/halt the growth of the hobby. We all started somewhere! While perhaps not as costly on a "per item" basis, the bogus forensic certed items must outnumber the PSA/JSA errors by 10 to 1.

The PSA/JSA examples are (for the most part) mistakes... It is the intent to deceive that differentiates a mistake from a criminal act. To me, that's the aspect which is most unacceptable.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The PSA/JSA examples are (for the most part) mistakes... It is the intent to deceive that differentiates a mistake from a criminal act. To me, that's the aspect which is most unacceptable.

Autographic forgeries date back to Roman times. Human nature being what it is, and greed being what it is, one will never eliminate the intent--or the attempt--to deceive. Never.

What is the point of posting, each and every month, some new forgeries available on Coach's Corner? Does anyone really think the bidders are here, and will be warned away? Have years of YouTube videos and "ooh, ooh, look how bad this one is" postings here made a difference in the flood of low-grade garbage? Not according to Chris, who states that "not too many are aware how much bad stuff is really out there. To tell you the truth, the number is incomprehensible to the average collector." If Chris is right, than one might as well try emptying the Atlantic with a teaspoon.

But, one can eliminate the system that has caused so many to "buy the certificate, rather than the autograph."

[perezfan]

Yep... Two schools of thought, and both are valid. Sure, there's probably a point of diminishing return with all of the Coach's Corner/Ace/Morales threads. I've come to view them as entertainment more than anything else. Some of the fakes are downright funny. But that doesn't make these criminal outfits any less despicable.

We all have our own personal experiences with this stuff. I guess that's what motivates us to react differently than others might. I've only had positive experiences with Spence and PSA. Over the years, a few pieces I gambled on (and hoped were good) were rejected... and probably deservedly so. That would not have been the case with those other "forensic fools".

[steve B]

True you'll never get rid of forgeries or forgers of anything.

But posting here or anywhere else isn't useless.

Since I collect baseball stuff in general I sometimes get offered stuff third hand. Usually stuff from a friends mothers friend (Yeah, sounds odd but that's how it goes)

The last two have been autographed prints. With COAs from places I've never heard of. And since the sellers are older the best I get is usally a cell phone pic of it hung on the wall.
Googling the COA issuers sometimes brings me back here. And the news is never good. Even if it doesn't bring me here the news has yet to be good.

So if someone is considering CC or any of those places and does the slightest bit of research the posts are worth it.

Steve B

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Autographic forgeries date back to Roman times. Human nature being what it is, and greed being what it is, one will never eliminate the intent--or the attempt--to deceive. Never.

What is the point of posting, each and every month, some new forgeries available on Coach's Corner? Does anyone really think the bidders are here, and will be warned away? Have years of YouTube videos and "ooh, ooh, look how bad this one is" postings here made a difference in the flood of low-grade garbage? Not according to Chris, who states that "not too many are aware how much bad stuff is really out there. To tell you the truth, the number is incomprehensible to the average collector." If Chris is right, than one might as well try emptying the Atlantic with a teaspoon.

But, one can eliminate the system that has caused so many to "buy the certificate, rather than the autograph."

[thetruthisoutthere]

I've been writing for blogs and doing videos on Coach's Corner, Chris Morales and Ted Taylor for a long, long time, and I will continue to give them all of the "free advertising" they deserve.

Until Leon or Dan tells me that I should stop posting about Coach's Corner and Chris Morales, I will continue to do what I do.

[rjackson44]

Wheres the fbi in all this omg.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Hundreds of novice and new collectors entering the hobby will be burned, and this will slow/halt the growth of the hobby.

You are as right as anyone could possibly be.
This is perhaps the smartest sentence in this thread and is something that I have always thought to be true.
Everytime there is an expose of the sports autograph hobby on TV or newspaper I shudder because without any doubt we will lose future collectors because of it.
Threads like this hopefully can warn some of them before they make mistakes. And if someone thinks these threads are a waste of time, well don't read the thread.

[GrayGhost]

I love these threads and have learned more about autographs on here in the last few months than I could ever learn. So, if its about a super expensive GH Ruth signed piece, or a Derek Jeter signed photo, keep exposing the forgeries and bad FDA's and "Authenticators"

[thetruthisoutthere]

Here's another masterpiece authenticated by Stat Authentic (Ted Taylor/Jeff Stevens). What a horrible forgery!!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOU-GEHRIG-B...item2eba97bcda


kel-3.jpg

kel-1.jpg

kel-2.jpg

[travrosty]

everytime i see an expose on the autograph hobby, i am glad the fraudsters and forgers are caught and exposed, and if it is an authentication company, great! they already know that what they are doing is incredibly flawed, but they take no reforms or actions themselves, they are very comfortable in their warm bath water. They think they can do it forever.

the hobbys swimming pool needs to be drained, cleaned, scrubbed, disinfected and filled back up with clean, fresh water.

I don't think we will lose collectors, but i hope what happens is that collectors wont just rely on an authentication company totally out of publicity or perceived reputation, but instead do some homework, slow down and take a little time to buy an autograph instead of an impulse buy because it has an abc or xyz sticker.

If the collector base shrinks a bit, maybe prices will come down, thats okay, but i dont think there will ever be a mass exodus of collectors, especially baseball, its too popular a sport.

What is happening now is not working, its a flawed, closed circuit system that benefits some at the expense of others. look at haulsofshame. 99.99 percent of the collectors out there dont know about the christy mathewson signed 'won in the ninth' controversy, the babe ruth signed ball controversy, they need to know. when 10,000 dollar, 50,000 dollar, 100,000 dollar and up pieces get sold with an authentication sticker from abc and xyz and these companies don't acknowledge anything, don't say anything and ignore, something needs to be done. good old competition would solve it but the people making the money on the current system don't want any.

[RichardSimon]

True there probably won't be a mass exodus of collectors from the baseball hobby.
But the influx we would actually like to see (if they make the prices go up, then our collections go up in value) is not taking place.
I still do nicely in my business of buying and selling autographs but find it harder to find new collectors who want to start collecting HOF autographs. The more common HOFers in my inventory now sit for a long time before they get sold.
Years ago, I would get multiple orders of HOF autographs in the $20-$50 range, it was obvious these were from newer collectors starting their HOF autograph collections. I rarely see that type of order now. Though Speaker, Young, Lajoie, Alexander, etc. still fly away quickly when I do get them in inventory.
The bottom line is new collectors are not coming into the hobby the way they used to.
Though the economy is probably a factor in that also.

[thetruthisoutthere]

We need not forget the impulse buyers who buy crap that originates from Coach's Corner with COAs from a self-proclaimed "Forensic Investigator" named Christopher Morales.

The impulse buyers make that purchase based on the fact that the COA reads "Forensic." They equate the word forensic with shows like CSI. Those same impulse buyers are equally impressed with the words court-approved.

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

We need not forget the impulse buyers who buy crap that originates from Coach's Corner with COAs from a self-proclaimed "Forensic Investigator" named Christopher Morales.

The impulse buyers make that purchase based on the fact that the COA reads "Forensic." They equate the word forensic with shows like CSI. Those same impulse buyers are equally impressed with the words court-approved.

+1

[GrayGhost]

Heres a few.

first, a nice blurry, Abe Lincoln HANDWRITTEN letter from the Executive mansion. ONLY w the Coaches

http://www.myccsa.com/Lot/228/abraha...from-1862.aspx

CHRIS Priddy and Ace...hmmm.

http://www.myccsa.com/Lot/228/christ...tage-book.aspx

And . um. he learned to sign his name later in his playing days? Huh? And the ink dried about three months ago. COME ON

http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=305209

And just on page one. THREE Marilyn's, incl a ball w JFK, and a piece signed Norma Jean.

Honestly, its disguisting, disgraceful and hopefully some day the hammer will come down on these crooks and their crooked crap fake authenticators. It really p***** me off.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Yes, Scott, another piece of garbage authenticated by Chris "I Never Saw An Autograph I Didn't like" Morales. Think about the dozens of Abe Lincoln signed letters that Morales has "authenticated" over the years for Coach's Corner.

Has Morales as a "Forensic Investigator," ever asked Lee Trythall and Scott Malack where all of the vintage items he's "authenticated" originate from? Literally thousands of vintage autograph items that no one else could even dream of!!!! And that's only from Coach's Corner!!!!

And someone is going tell me that isn't a problem for the hobby!!!!! Seriously!!!!

Abe-CC-Morales.jpg

[scooter729]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

CHRIS Priddy and Ace...hmmm.

http://www.myccsa.com/Lot/228/christ...tage-book.aspx

From the portion of the link which is visible, all I saw was "Christ..." in the description. I was guessing Scott and Lee really did it this time, and turned up a nice vintage ink 2,000 year-old signature from Jesus himself!

Alas, just another Christy Mathewson instead - what a disappointment.

[Mr. Zipper]

I think there is probably some merit to the argument that few, if any, go to Coaches Corner and unknowingly get fleeced. You'd have to be brain dead to look at that array of items and not be highly suspicious.

BUT, the issue is that the people who do buy at CC then flip these items in a less suspicious setting. Whether it's the quaint Mom & Pop second hand shop or Billy Bob's Good Ol' Boy Local Auction, eventually these items find their way to someone who is truly duped by the presumably honest seller and the "paperwork" that certifies it.

Coaches Corner is an example of hiding in plain sight. The middlemen distributors in Operation Bullpen were running around speaking in code and concerned their phones may be tapped. Coaches Corner just sits there for all to see and sells it month after month.

[RichardSimon]

They sell it Steve, shovelful by shovelful.

[David Atkatz]

Don't worry, Richard. We're almost there! Just a few more YouTube videos, and Coach's will be gone.

[Fuddjcal]

Funny David, Not LOL.

What have you done to stop the flood of forgeries? Someone puts himself out there trying to help the hobby we all love and you continue to give him s*** for it? I'd like to know why? Even if you are not on his side, how in the hell in good conscious can you keep giving him crap for it? You’re an idiot is why? Why don't you make a you tube video of you, the horse toothed jack ass alienating an entire hobby, because that's what you’re doing

It's precisely because idiots like you that think your s*** doesn't stink, that I cannot WAIT to sell my entire collection. OH YES, the old time collectors will most definitely leave. I've left once and when I hear an otherwise reasonable intelligent collector, give smack to a guy for putting his heart & sole into something, it's time to find a new hobby. I certainly respect Chris Williams & Travis Roste for their opposing view points of the authentication conundrum. You sir are just an ass, plain and simple. Never anything constructive to add, just “make fun” of what people are passionate about. I am personally tired of your crap and you really should reconsider your stance, but your reputation is what it is, a pathetic human being with NOTHING good to add to the collecting community ….NOTHING. I hope you rot and choke on all of your old Yankee stuff!!!!!

Leon, I think you should lock the thread because my eyes are hurting. I can’t see reading another word this dopey dope has to say. I’d rather shove an ice pick in my eye than to read one more word from this antagonizing Tra La La Goon D A

[David Atkatz]

Don't sugarcoat it like that, Chuck. Let us know how you really feel!

[Ease]

Chuck, relax man, drink a beer or burn one or something.

[David Atkatz]

On a serious note, though, if you want to laud someone for attempting to clean up the hobby, you should be thanking Peter Nash, and his Hauls of Shame. Outing those who have looted our public archives and libraries, and then sold on their spoils. Outing some serious forgeries that have infiltrated the hobby at the highest level. Outing those who have fooled "the hobby" for years, and have sold their forgeries for millions of dollars (The contents of the "Barry Halper wing" at the Hall of Fame (now thankfully removed--thanks to Nash) were purchased by MLB for nearly ten million dollars for donation to the Hall.)
In addition to publicizing these frauds, his efforts have led to quite a few of the artifacts being returned.

Now there's someone who's doing some good.

(And, please, don't bother me about his past. That's between him and Rob Lifson, and only they know what really happened. (Even if they don't agree.) I'm interested in what he's doing now--which is helping all of us, enormously.)

[GrayGhost]

Fuddjcal, I agree a hundred pct. Im tired of reading this petty BS. And Ease, yo have a creepy avatar. ugh..haha

Im done contributing to this thread too. Just sick of the kid fighting BS

[RichardSimon]

I have heard that Peter Nash will be doing another project after the Ruth baseballs.
He will be looking at old team baseballs.
(pow)bullseye(pow).