Goodwin Pickups

[botn]

Jeff,

Do you bid in Goodwin's auctions? If it is your belief that certain auction houses are ripping you off (your words) then I am curious what motivates you to bid with them.

[calvindog]

Greg, I've answered that question 38 times since I started criticizing Mastro a few years back and nothing I've said exculpates these auction houses.

Now here's one for you: do you think the auction results posted above are fishy? 5K for a card that sells for $200 bucks the other 20 times it sells? How about the inordinate amount of purported reneggers? And the personal guarantees he offers certain consignors? Any of that disturb you (assuming you were a bidder and not a consignor)?

[Matt]

As stated previously, we don't know enough to say anything definitely, but I am certainly concerned by the anecdotal evidence I have seen, heard and that has been presented here. Taking Leon's comments about friends shill bidding on behalf of consignors and then simply not paying if they win and also considering certain houses don't have that issue, I wonder if the issue here is that certain houses don't chase after non-paying bidders and perhaps have earned reputations. If someone knows that they will be pursued by a house if they win and don't pay then it's unlikely they'd take the risk of shill bidding; alternatively if someone knows a certain house doesn't care if they don't pay, then that may encourage shill bidding.
I wonder what steps Goodwin and other houses take to cut down on the rash of non-paying bidders that effect them as compared to say, REA, which doesn't have an issue. Does Goodwin pursue legal action? Do they even block that bidders address/phone number from bidding in future auctions? While enabling bad bidders certainly seems less direct then an auctioneer himself shilling up the auction, I likewise find it objectionable as it is akin to putting the loaded gun in hand and pointing it in the right direction.

[botn]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Greg, I've answered that question 38 times since I started criticizing Mastro a few years back and nothing I've said exculpates these auction houses.

Now here's one for you: do you think the auction results posted above are fishy? 5K for a card that sells for $200 bucks the other 20 times it sells? How about the inordinate amount of purported reneggers? And the personal guarantees he offers certain consignors? Any of that disturb you (assuming you were a bidder and not a consignor)?

Well I must be one dumb guy because I really don't recall the answer to my question or I would not have asked. If you think you are being ripped off then buy from someone else. Mitigate your damages. You feel shill bidding is going on then turn it over to someone who can ascertain whether or not it is happening. Gather evidence. Prices on their own are not evidence. There are circumstances behind auction results and higher than usual bids does not always mean the item was shilled. Prices are the starting place to launch an investigation not the determining factor that an item was shilled and your justification to attack someone's credibility.

You are a lawyer, a defense lawyer of all things. Imagine if your clients were tried and convicted on the quality of the evidence you have on Goodwin and even Mastro. Have you seen bidder records for either of these firms? You are nothing more than a messenger of information and have no first hand information or experiences that I am aware of.

Sorry but you are a bully sometimes and you come off as a guy with a personal vendetta and your campaign does get lost on me as a result. But I will answer your questions, unlike you who will not address mine from above or the one I posed regarding the E300 Cobb which you conveniently skirted around.

At face value, without looking at the circumstances, the 5K bid is odd. It is so odd that I feel there is something we are missing. And because I do not have all the facts I prefer not to condemn Bill. Next, who are these people who are claiming that Bill has stated he has had an inordinate number of reneggers? Same question on the issue of these personal guarantees he is offering, which sounds more like a hidden reserve than anything else? And finally, actually Jeff, no it is not that disturbing to me because of the other issues which in my opinion, make shill bidding look like an act of kindness. I am more concerned with how many butchered cards SGC and PSA have, knowingly or unknowingly, graded. That has always been my number one concern in this hobby which has only gotten worse over time. I am also concerned about owners of grading companies still actively selling cards. Grading improprieties trump all Jeff. In the case of shill bidding, while unlawful, the worst thing is that I pay the maximum I am willing to pay for an item.

I like to have all of the facts before I draw a conclusion. I don't think you or any of us have all of the facts to draw a conclusion one way or another.

[calvindog]

Greg, this isn't a criminal courtroom and the standard is not beyond a reasonable doubt.

Guarantees are now called hidden reserves? I didn't realize that was appropriate when there is no mention of it anywhere in Goodwin's rules of auction.

And are you a consignor in Goodwin auctions? I'm not.

I've got no hidden agenda unlike many people posting on this thread. And if I recall, you trash Mastro as well -- let me guess: you haven't consigned there in some time?

Woops, I didn't want to forget this oddity: http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=3293

[Vintageclout]

Matt and Greg...well said! Of all the inflamatory remarks this seemingly worthless thread is generating, yours just might make the most sense. I really don't think non-paying bidders are isloated to Goodwin, Mile High or any other auction house. To reiterate my previous meassage, I do believe it is widespread because an auction house just might fear any potential negative publicity. To answer one of your questions regarding Goodwin, I do specifically know TWO people that were banned from bidding from the auction because they didn't pay for their winning bids. Are there more...your guess is as good as mine? Also, Greg's comments on "card doctoring" are, by far, the most concerning issue in this hobby. Not only are people gettig "ripped off", but excessive auction prices are realized because a professional restorer can work miracles with cards, turning mid-grade examples into 7's or 8's. THis is where the real fraud exists!

By the way Matt...you might want to know that your Williard's Chocolate Premium was MY consignment which I previously paid almost $5K for approx. one year ago...I essentially took a beating with your winning bid! No hard feelings, and I wish you lots of luck with your new purchase. It is an awesome piece, and I agree that down the road you will realize a great ROI with it.
Additionally, I consigned a Duke Delehanty that I paid almost $15K for and only went for a hammer price of $11K in change...another beating that shocked me! You should also know (Jeff, this one's for you!) I informed Goodwin that I hoped for "at least" $5K on the Ruth & $15K on the Delehanty. I surely wish Jeff's inflated auction figures worked there magic with my two consignments because I lost $6K! Both were not shilled, inflated or as "Big Fish" says "toppled", regardless of my expectations. Unfortunately, this is the nature of the beast, the risk we all take with consignments. Jeff, you only seem to lay out the excessive high end results. Believe me, I have spoken to many people that were NOT happy with their Goodwin numbers. Every collector has experienced "pLus/delta" scenarios in their auction experiences.

In closing, I have had both good and bad days with Goodwin, REA, Heritage, etc. with this Goodwin auction not one of my best. However I will continue giving Goodwin, REA and Heritage lots because they treat me fairly, pay on time, and handle my cards with the utmost professionalism. I would like to point out that there is one specific thing I prefer about Goodwin...he virtually NEVER puts more than one of the same card in his auction. For example, Heritage currently has three 1956 Mantle's on two consecutive pages including an SGC 96, 92 and PSA 8! That is absolutely ridiculous. The consigners must be livid (I know I would be). REA also does that much too often, spreading the wealth between too many cards, but unfortunately with only one auction a year I do understand it is almost impossible not to have duplicates.

Regards,
Joe T.

[botn]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Greg, this isn't a criminal courtroom and the standard is not beyond a reasonable doubt.

Guarantees are now called hidden reserves? I didn't realize that was appropriate when there is no mention of it anywhere in Goodwin's rules of auction.

And are you a consignor in Goodwin auctions? I'm not.

I've got no hidden agenda unlike many people posting on this thread. And if I recall, you trash Mastro as well -- let me guess: you haven't consigned there in some time?

Woops, I didn't want to forget this oddity: http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=3293

Exactly Jeff this is not a criminal courtroom. It is not a courtroom at all and so it should not be used as one.

Again, I am not speaking for Goodwin so stop twisting my words. I said it sounds like a hidden reserve and if it is, I have no idea what the law says about that kind of practice and was not speaking about if it was appropriate or not.

I do trash Mastro but compared to you I look like one of their supporters. Big difference between us in that way Jeff. I prefer not to be lumped in with you in that way.

Thanks for answering my questions. Your silence says it all.

[calvindog]

So you're a consignor to Goodwin and not Mastro? No wonder you support one and not the other when both had crazy auction results. Greg, the truth will set you free.

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

For example, Heritage currently has three 1956 Mantle's on two consecutive pages including an SGC 96, 92 and PSA 8! That is absolutely ridiculous. The consigners must be livid (I know I would be).

Just to clarify, I believe it is Mile high that has the 3-56 Mantle's.

[Adam]

Is anyone going to post pickups from the Goodwin auction? Wasn't that the purpose of this thread? Show them!

[Peter_Spaeth]

It seems we are dealing with three separate phenomena: (1) some auction prices seemingly out of line, (2) some cards appearing for sale shortly after they "sold" at auction; and (3) some cards appearing to be recycled through several auctions.

In any given case, of course one could construct an innocent explanation, and it might be correct. And it all could be innocent. But in my opinion there is enough there that one can legitimately raise questions without it being a so-called witchhunt.

One other observation: people are fond of arguing by extrapolation, MY card didn't do so well, therefore nothing must be going on. Or I won at less than my top all, therefore nothing must be going on. While there is a superficial appeal, and I recall the same arguments about Mastro, they don't really prove or disprove anything. IF for example, there was a pattern and practice of only selling cards if they met a hidden reserve, it is more likely an auction house would have that understanding with dealers than with collectors, because there is a far better chance of preserving secrecy. Similarly, IF an auction house was inclined to sometimes run people up to a maximum bid, it probably would only do so selectively to try to minimize detection.

The bottom line is, one can only observe the facts and try to understand them, and everyone's perception including my own is going to be colored by their personalities, experiences, and self-interest.

PS I agree with Greg that card doctoring is a more serious problem.

[Vintageclout]

Thank you Mike for clarifying....I inadvertantly stated Heritage auctioning the three '56 Mantle's...it is Mile High.

Regards,
Joe T.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Thank you Mike for clarifying....I inadvertantly stated Heritage auctioning the three '56 Mantle's...it is Mile High.

Regards,
Joe T.

Joe- I have sent you 3 messages.....1 through PM, 1 through outside email and 1 through the email in our Net54 system. Please answer one of them asap....thanks

[Vintageclout]

Greg,

Since Jeff refuses to answer your question about the Plow Candy Cobb I will try and help. I wanted that card in the worst way and waged a bidding war with someone, being outbid several times AFTER the $14K Mastro figure. Personally, for a card like that, I didn't care one bit about exceeding a prior figure...I wanted the card! I do know who won the card......it sold. There you have it. Two people who collect high end Cobb items refusing to lose until one of us (I'm the wimp!) bowed out.

Sometimes things are a lot more simple than they look!

Joe

[E93]

I am very psyched about this win in the recent Goodwin auction.

[calvindog]

Does anyone know if Joe Tomasullo (sp?) is still writing the descriptions for Goodwin's auction lots?

[calvindog]

Wow, crickets.

Anyone know anything about the guy who writes Goodwin's flowery auction descriptions? Is his name Joe Tomusello (sp?)?

[danmckee]

Had that in my hand at National Matt! That is a very cool piece!! Congrats, Dan.

[bigfish]

Jeff,

not sure but whoever writes the descriptions might just be in touch with their feminine side and I won't hold that against Goodwin and Company. They are great people.

Matt,

You stole that Ruth item. It is a one of a kind and was a nice deal!!

[calvindog]

Yes, Toby, we all know they are 'great' people. No one disputes that.

[ebrehm]

On the subject of auction catalog item descriptions, connections to sports history and sports card history can make for entertaining reading, but what is most relevant to me, as a potential bidder, is the accuracy of the descriptions relative to item condition. On that score, I think Brian Drent (Mile High Card Co.) is now as good or better than anyone in the business, at least among the auctions and items that I personally have been looking at. He seems to be making a concerted effort to give balanced descriptions that include both the stronger and weaker condition attributes of each item, including subtle defects that might be missed just looking at a digital scan.

[bobfreedman]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Yes, Toby, we all know they are 'great' people. No one disputes that.

Jeff, you must be a 'GREAT' lawyer that defends 'GREAT' people

[nolemmings]

As a buyer, I'm concerned with any tactic that chases sellers away. Otherwise though, I am pretty much unaffected, as I very seldom search by subcategory anyway (and believe it or not, in addition to some specific sets and players, I'm also a type collector).

OOPS, wrong thread.

[calvindog]

Bob, good second post.

I defend people according to what our laws permit - you know, the Constitution and all. I don't break the law while defending them. You can see the difference between that and fraud, right?

[Rob D.]

If nothing else, it seems this thread has prompted participation from folks rarely heard from previously on the board.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

Jeff, you must be a 'GREAT' lawyer that defends 'GREAT' people

I'm not exactly sure what you meant by that comment, Bob, but it seems pretty misguided.

Although I hope to never find out for myself, by all accounts, Jeff appears to pretty a pretty damn good lawyer. (Perhaps even "great".)

As far as whom he defends, I'm proud to live in a country where EVERYONE accused of wrongdoing has the right to receive a solid defense. Your comment seems to suggest that some people don't deserve that kind of quality defense. If that's what you meant, you're in the wrong country.

[bobfreedman]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

I'm not exactly sure what you meant by that comment, Bob, but it seems pretty misguided.

Although I hope to never find out for myself, by all accounts, Jeff appears to pretty a pretty damn good lawyer. (Perhaps even "great".)

As far as whom he defends, I'm proud to live in a country where EVERYONE accused of wrongdoing has the right to receive a solid defense. Your comment seems to suggest that some people don't deserve that kind of quality defense. If that's what you meant, you're in the wrong country.

I think we all know what I was implying, Jeff has accused someone of wrongdoing without a shred of evidence, only conjecture and hypothesis. I understand that our legal system is the best in the world (I have lived outside the US many years) but I am entitled to my opinion (another great thing about living in this country) and in my opinion Jeff is handling this poorly by damaging the reputation of an honest person. And this I speak from fact.

[Matt]

nm

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

I think we all know what I was implying, Jeff has accused someone of wrongdoing without a shred of evidence, only conjecture and hypothesis. I understand that our legal system is the best in the world (I have lived outside the US many years) but I am entitled to my opinion (another great thing about living in this country) and in my opinion Jeff is handling this poorly by damaging the reputation of an honest person. And this I speak from fact.

All Jeff has done is that he has seen some dramatic abnormalities in the sales prices of items from this particular auction house, and pointed them out.

A couple of years ago, he pointed out some similar irregularities with another auction house and was harshly criticized for his take. How'd that work out?

Sure you're entitled to your opinion, but this is a Vintage Baseball Card Forum, which makes Jeff's thoughts on an auction's potential irregularities completely "on topic".

Conversely, your post on Jeff's chosen profession is totally "off topic".

I don't care if he picks up trash for the city. If he sees things being done wrongly I want to hear and read about it.

If you disagree with his opinion, go ahead. Say why. But leave the straw man arguments out of the discussion.


Edited to add: I'm not sure I'd use the term "without a shred of evidence." He offered plenty of evidence. Most of it was circumstantial, but it's still evidence.

Edited again: You said, "And this I speak from fact." Care to offer any of those facts?

[Peter_Spaeth]

You managed to insult sanitation workers and straw men in a single post.

Edit to add Anyone here think 11K for a PSA 9 Red Heart Mantle seems unusual? Just curious.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Edit to add Anyone here think 11K for a PSA 9 Red Heart Mantle seems unusual? Just curious.

Reasons I can think of:

1. Marketing

2. Rare cards sell for high prices no matter what the economy. I think most collectors know about the rarity of high-grade Red Hearts.

3. Marketing

4. Really cool description in the auction catalog. (Did you know Mickey Mantle was born in Spavinaw, Okla.?)

5. Marketing

[Peter_Spaeth]

Rob thanks those had not occurred to me.

[Anthony S.]

1. Steal underwear

2.

3. Profit

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You managed to insult sanitation workers and straw men in a single post.

Edit to add Anyone here think 11K for a PSA 9 Red Heart Mantle seems unusual? Just curious.

Actually, my take on NYC is that it would be a far better place with a few more Sanitation Workers and a few less lawyers. But I no longer tilt at windmills.

[mightyq]

peter, i think i have seen that card sell 10 times for around the $3,500 range. where did it sell for $11,000? excuse me if i missed it. i would assume without looking it was a goodwin auction? i am implying this because of the location of your post not saying bill g is doing any wrong doings. so how are you doing

[Peter_Spaeth]

And this discussion would be even better with more straw men than already have been raised.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mightyq

peter, i think i have seen that card sell 10 times for around the $3,500 range. where did it sell for $11,000? excuse me if i missed it. i would assume without looking it was a goodwin auction? i am implying this because of the location of your post not saying bill g is doing any wrong doings. so how are you doing

(Does best Ella Fitzgerald imitation)
It was just, one, of those things....
http://goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=2231

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by mightyq

peter, i think i have seen that card sell 10 times for around the $3,500 range. where did it sell for $11,000? excuse me if i missed it. i would assume without looking it was a goodwin auction? i am implying this because of the location of your post not saying bill g is doing any wrong doings. so how are you doing

Marty,

$11,294 in the August 2007 Goodwin auction.

VCP list 25 transactions of that card, in that grade, between August 2006 and June 2009. The other 24 are all between $2400 and $4,000.

But the August 2007 one was really written up well. (Almost like a newspaper editor did it, or something!)

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

(Does best Ella Fitzgerald imitation)
It was just, one, of those things....
http://goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=2231

Peter,

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but it appears you have an axe (sic) to grind. Did you not read this:

Great gloss, fantastic borders and ultra vivid blue background makes (sic) this card jump out at you. Fantastic back.

The card jumps out at you. I doubt the other PSA 9s JUMPED at you. (By the way, Mickey Mantle had a 38-inch vertical leap, something that had it been noted in the auction description, likely would have resulted in $1,000 more added to the hammer price.)

Hope this helps.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

Peter,

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but it appears you have an axe (sic) to grind. Did you not read this:

Great gloss, fantastic borders and ultra vivid blue background makes (sic) this card jump out at you. Fantastic back.

The card jumps out at you. I doubt the other PSA 9s JUMPED at you. (By the way, Mickey Mantle had a 38-inch vertical leap, something that had it been noted in the auction description, likely would have resulted in $1,000 more added to the hammer price.)

Hope this helps.

"Newspaper editor"... See what I mean?

[calvindog]

Circumstantial evidence is evidence. I know this for a fact.

Red Heart Mantle PSA 9

6/4/09 eBay $4,000.00
4/5/09 Memory Lane $3,435.70
12/19/08 Mastro $2,400.00
9/1/08 eBay $3,800.00
8/4/08 eBay $3,151.10
6/29/08 eBay $2,700.00
5/30/08 Goodwin $3,124.32
3/6/08 Goodwin $3,697.00
2/14/08 eBay $3,106.00
1/21/08 eBay $2,945.00
1/7/08 eBay $2,500.00
12/18/07 eBay $3,569.00
12/14/07 Mastro $3,049.20
12/9/07 eBay $2,999.99
11/30/07 Goodwin $3,124.00
8/24/07 Goodwin $11,294.00
5/31/07 Goodwin $2,581.00
5/23/07 eBay $3,375.99
3/17/07 eBay $3,200.00
12/18/06 eBay $3,230.00
12/8/06 Mastro $2,722.00
11/7/06 eBay $3,350.00
10/28/06 Heritage $3,107.00
10/4/06 Goodwin $3,525.00
8/19/06 Mastro $3,285.30
8/11/06 Memory Lane $4,074.45
7/24/06 eBay $3,250.00

[calvindog]

More facts:

1967 Topps Maury Wills PSA 8: the card sold 34 times in the past three years, 25 times between $100 and $200….and once for $349, the only time Goodwin sold it. Coincidentally, the same card was on ebay the very night the Goodwin auction closed – and the ebay card sold for $146.

[calvindog]

1949 Bowman Duke Snider PSA 7

9/3/09 eBay $812.00
5/8/09 Goodwin $904.75
2/7/09 eBay $798.00
11/17/07 eBay $1,137.00
8/24/07 Goodwin $2,888.00
10/19/06 eBay $1,110.55
9/6/06 eBay $1,091.66

[calvindog]

And finally, Bob, try to have more respect for defense lawyers. It's a thankless job sometimes and very stressful. After all, I have respect for the company which hosts Goodwin's auctions, i.e. yours, so turnabout should be fair play.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by calvindog

And finally, Bob, try to have more respect for defense lawyers. It's a thankless job sometimes and very stressful. After all, I have respect for the company which hosts Goodwin's auctions, i.e. yours, so turnabout should be fair play.

really? ouch.

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by Matt

really? ouch.

Really.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87562

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by calvindog

And finally, Bob, try to have more respect for defense lawyers. It's a thankless job sometimes and very stressful. After all, I have respect for the company which hosts Goodwin's auctions, i.e. yours, so turnabout should be fair play.

Well, I asked him what his "facts" were and got no response. I guess I know why.

[calvindog]

Jim, I certainly don't mind if Bill's friends chime in and support him as long as they note their biases; after all, what are friends for? What's worse is when some support Bill and/or attack me and fail to note their financial bias; this is misleading. You know, like if someone who was attacking me was a big consignor to Bill. Or wrote his flowery and often grammatically incorrect auction write-ups. Or who tried to collect money for Bill.

Now isn't it time to attack Dave Forman again?

[botn]

Jeff you are projecting again. Nobody on this thread has attacked you. At this point I would be hard pressed to not defend JP when it his turn to burned at the stake by you.

[oldjudge]

Jeff--Extremely interesting. The thing I find most confusing is that a PSA9 Mantle sold three times in six months, all in Goodwin auctions. The first and last sales were not abnormally priced, just the second. Do you know if these were all the same card or if they were different ones? If the same, that would make your analysis even more damming. Also, while it is always possible that a consignor had a friend shill up his or her lot, you need an underbidder to get this high. Unless there were two shills that still implies at least one "agressive" bidder out there. If you are implying that Bill ran these up, why would he do it on the middle auction but not on the other two?