Roy hallady r.i.p

[rjackson44]

Died in his own plane so sad .it was his passion.espn reporting now ,,

[h2oya311]

just saw this pop up on my screen. Another person my age dying way too young. RIP Doc!

[barrysloate]

Just went to youtube and re-watched his perfect game, in his memory. What horrible news!

[darwinbulldog]

I realize given how many famous people there are that it's going to be pretty frequent to hear that one of them has just died, but this one strikes me as particularly surprising, even independent of how young he was.

He was probably going to be in on the first ballot anyway. I wonder now if he'll be the first to get 100% of the vote.

[ullmandds]

RIP Roy...what a great pitcher you were...and that was some plane too!

[chalupacollects]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb...cid=spartanntp

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I realize given how many famous people there are that it's going to be pretty frequent to hear that one of them has just died, but this one strikes me as particularly surprising, even independent of how young he was.

He was probably going to be in on the first ballot anyway. I wonder now if he'll be the first to get 100% of the vote.

Um, Halladay will not get 100% of the HOF vote. If Junior and Maddux didn't, then Halladay sure won't. He had some great seasons over the course of a decade, but with only 203 wins, I'm doubtful that he'll make it in on the first ballot.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

Um, Halladay will not get 100% of the HOF vote. If Junior and Maddux didn't, then Halladay sure won't. He had some great seasons over the course of a decade, but with only 203 wins, I'm doubtful that he'll make it in on the first ballot.

It would be tacky of me to try to profit from his death, but how about I apologize to you if I'm wrong about his first ballot election, and you apologize to me when you're wrong?

[darwinbulldog]

P.S. He was better than Nolan Ryan.

[btcarfagno]

Doc completed over 17% of the games he started. Given the times he pitched in, that's pretty amazing. Such a sad thing to hear.

Tom C

[oldjudge]

Horrible news-God rest his soul

[39special]

Very sad news.Only 40 with a wife and 2 kids.RIP

[Klrdds]

Tragic news indeed !
A fabulous pitcher who accomplished about all a pitcher could during a HOF career and he did it honorably and fairly without a hint of scandal or PEDs. In retirement he was just a regular guy who lived a normal life.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

It would be tacky of me to try to profit from his death, but how about I apologize to you if I'm wrong about his first ballot election, and you apologize to me when you're wrong?

Sure!

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

P.S. He was better than Nolan Ryan.

In terms of peak value, yes, he was better than Ryan. In terms of career value, no.

[KingFisk]

One of the best I ever saw. Loved to watch he and Ruiz work together. So sad.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[yanksfan09]

Great pitcher, very sad to hear...

He's a first ballot HOFer in my book. A real throwback who wanted to stay on the mound and complete games when it just didn't happen anymore.

RIP

[packs]

RIP Roy. He stopped to sign for me and my dad at Spring Training while he was on the Blue Jays and seemed like a really nice guy.

I think he's a no doubt HOFer. At the time he was only the 5th pitcher to win a Cy Young in both leagues and with the exception of Clemens the other 3 guys are Hall of Famers.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I saw his perfect game against the Marlins


There will be a lawsuit against the airplane Icon manufacturer....i thought those planes come with a complete parachute or something. We will get the details in litigation

[Exhibitman]

Terrible news; from all accounts a very nice man as well as a great player.

OK, fess up: who got on eBay and bought a RC or signed card?

I did...

Yes, I am a ghoul...

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Terrible news; from all accounts a very nice man as well as a great player.

OK, fess up: who got on eBay and bought a RC or signed card?

I did...

Yes, I am a ghoul...

You're fine. The people who are rushing to list them tonight though? Shady at best.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

In terms of peak value, yes, he was better than Ryan. In terms of career value, no.

Ah, yeah. LOL

NOLAN RYAN
5,714 strikeouts (MLB record)
7 no-hitters (MLB record)- 17 K's in his best no-hit performance - (MLB record)- Photo attached
12 1-hitters (MLB record)
383 K's in a single season (MLB record)
19 K's 4x (Only player to ever strike out 18 or more 4 times)
300 K's 6 times (MLB record- tied w/ HOF Randy Johnson)
61 COMPLETE GAME SHUTOUTS!

[seanofjapan]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Ah, yeah. LOL

NOLAN RYAN
5,714 strikeouts (MLB record)
7 no-hitters (MLB record)- 17 K's in his best no-hit performance - (MLB record)- Photo attached
12 1-hitters (MLB record)
383 K's in a single season (MLB record)
19 K's 4x (Only player to ever strike out 18 or more 4 times)
300 K's 6 times (MLB record- tied w/ HOF Randy Johnson)
61 COMPLETE GAME SHUTOUTS!

Career Cy Young awards: Halladay 2, Nolan Ryan 0.

Not a reliable basis for comparison to be sure as even Pete Vukovich won more Cy Youngs than Nolan Ryan, but still wroth mentioning. Ryan was good for a very long time but never the best. Halladay was the best but for a shorter time.

I'm personally of the view that it makes no sense for the HOF to overvalue longevity over dominance. There are tons of guys in the 2,000 hit club who were way better at their peak than guys in the 3,000 hit club (and other clubs) but aren't in the Hall.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by seanofjapan

Career Cy Young awards: Halladay 2, Nolan Ryan 0.

Not a reliable basis for comparison to be sure as even Pete Vukovich won more Cy Youngs than Nolan Ryan, but still wroth mentioning. Ryan was good for a very long time but never the best. Halladay was the best but for a shorter time.

I'm personally of the view that it makes no sense for the HOF to overvalue longevity over dominance. There are tons of guys in the 2,000 hit club who were way better at their peak than guys in the 3,000 hit club (and other clubs) but aren't in the Hall.

Yawn...
This is not a new argument, but Ryan was also the victim of playing for 2 teams that didn't score runs (Angels, Astros) for 18 years.
I know because I had to endure the indignity of being a season ticket holder with the Angels for 8 years during the 1970's and watch this play out on a daily basis...
Believe me, he dominated the opposing hitters. His teammates just didn't score runs to reward him with wins the majority of time.

BTW, Nolan was robbed of a Cy Young award in 1973 and 1977.
Take a look again. He just happened to not play for a major market team that wasn't followed as much as others...

[Fred]

Punch in the gut day. So sad.

[seanofjapan]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Yawn...
This is not a new argument, but Ryan was also the victim of playing for 2 teams that didn't score runs (Angels, Astros) for 18 years.
I know because I had to endure the indignity of being a season ticket holder with the Angels for 8 years during the 1970's...

BTW, Nolan was robbed of a Cy Young award in 1973 and 1977.
Take a look again. He just happened to play for a team that wasn't followed as much as others...

I'm not sure how that is relevant to a Ryan-Halladay comparison though. Halladay spent most of his career playing for basement dwelling Blue Jays teams which had notoriously weak offenses and almost no following outside of Canada.

My overall point isn't to take anything away from Ryan, but more to question the logic of discounting Halladay's HOF credentials just because he didn't amass a bigger pile of stats (wins, etc) by adding a few mediocre seasons to the end of his career.

[Exhibitman]

Doc’s 7 year peak is consistent with the average HOFer. I think he will get in on the strength of 2 Cy Young awards, a perfect game and one of only two postseason no hitters. The stat padding of a few more years doesn’t matter.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by seanofjapan

I'm not sure how that is relevant to a Ryan-Halladay comparison though. Halladay spent most of his career playing for basement dwelling Blue Jays teams which had notoriously weak offenses and almost no following outside of Canada.

My overall point isn't to take anything away from Ryan, but more to question the logic of discounting Halladay's HOF credentials just because he didn't amass a bigger pile of stats (wins, etc) by adding a few mediocre seasons to the end of his career.

Sean,
Your point about playing in Toronto is well taken.
Actually, I wouldn't discount Doc Halladay's stats at all.
IMHO he is a HOF'er based on the fact that he had twice as many wins as losses, 2 Cy Young's, excellent post season performer, All Star, led the league in various pitching stats etc., etc.
Halliday was one of the pitchers I would always pay to watch pitch.
Very sad day for baseball fans everywhere indeed....

[packs]

Halladay was a unique pitcher for his time and I have no doubt he will be enshrined. He led the league in complete games 5 years in a row and 7 times overall. Shutouts 3 years in a row and 4 times overall. He only played 16 years, so for nearly half of them he completed more games than anyone and for a quarter of them he shutout more games than anyone. Two Cy Youngs and two more second place finishes. What else does a guy have to do?

[h2oya311]

need more pics of Doc vs. arguments about Nolan Ryan:

[jb217676]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

need more pics of Doc vs. arguments about Nolan Ryan:

Derek, you'll need to get one of Doc's 1995 Signature Rookies for your pre-rookie collection. He has a regular card, signed card and signed 8" x 10" redemption photo. I picked up one of the signed 8" x 10" photos, pictures Doc in his Dunedin Blue Jays uniform.

[Fred]

Wow, the Doc passes on and people are going to bring up who's a better pitcher.... how does that happen?

If I were a HOF voter he'd have my vote, not because he is gone but because he was a great pitcher. Not really sure how that is relevant to this thread. He's gone, so very sad.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Fred

Wow, the Doc passes on and people are going to bring up who's a better pitcher.... how does that happen?

If I were a HOF voter he'd have my vote, not because he is gone but because he was a great pitcher. Not really sure how that is relevant to this thread. He's gone, so very sad.

I would put andy pettite above him for HOF.....Roy got a few more awards..but the win total and playoff win total and success gives Andy the edge...

I also wish they had a Hall of Fame within the Hall of Fame....like first ballot guys etc..

[baseball tourist]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I would put andy pettite above him for HOF.....Roy got a few more awards..but the win total and playoff win total and success gives Andy the edge...

I disagree. Playoff win total speaks to the quality of team around Andy. Doc played on some middling to worse Jays squads.

[Orioles1954]

If Halladay gets in then Mussina, Pettitte, Gooden and Morris HAVE to be elected. I know everyone is sad by Halladay's passing, but let's not inflate his career based on sympathy alone. Of the 10 most similar players on Baseball Reference, exactly ONE (Vance) is in Cooperstown. Is Zack Grienke a Hall of Famer? That's his closest comp.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by baseball tourist

I disagree. Playoff win total speaks to the quality of team around Andy. Doc played on some middling to worse Jays squads.

The peripherals are also very good for Pettite he was top 6 in Cy young 5 times....7 for Roy

plus yes we know its all about opportunity for the playoffs but you cant punish someone for doing well and the playoff performances for pettite are a big plus when compared to Roy.....we know pettite did well with his opportunities.but we dont know about roy.......it is what it is...

and wins matter.until you show me a 300 game winner that doesnt make the hall..yes andy doesnt have 300 wins..he has about 275 when you combine playoff and regular season but just saying wins matter.

[darwinbulldog]

I already analyzed my data a long time ago, so Halladay's passing doesn't change anything in the rankings, but of the guys who pitched in my lifetime here's where I have them:

1) Roger Clemens
2) Tom Seaver
3) Randy Johnson
4) Greg Maddux
5) Pedro Martinez
6) Bert Blyleven
7) Phil Niekro
8) Mike Mussina
9) Curt Schilling
10) Clayton Kershaw (if he retires today; otherwise he probably ends up about #3)
11) Steve Carlton
12) Fergie Jenkins
13) Gaylord Perry
14) Roy Halladay
15) Tom Glavine
16) Kevin Brown
17) Rick Reuschel
18) Jim Palmer
19) Nolan Ryan
20) Luis Tiant
21) Cole Hamels
22) Dave Stieb
23) Felix Hernandez
24) Andy Pettite

[packs]

Originally Posted by baseball tourist

I disagree. Playoff win total speaks to the quality of team around Andy. Doc played on some middling to worse Jays squads.

I don't believe that at all. I don't see how someone could say Mariano Rivera's performance in the playoffs isn't short of incredible. You have to perform in the moment and Andy was at the top of the mountain.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

The peripherals are also very good for Pettite he was top 6 in Cy young 5 times....7 for Roy

plus yes we know its all about opportunity for the playoffs but you cant punish someone for doing well and the playoff performances for pettite are a big plus when compared to Roy.....we know pettite did well with his opportunities.but we dont know about roy.......it is what it is...

and wins matter.until you show me a 300 game winner that doesnt make the hall..yes andy doesnt have 300 wins..he has about 275 when you combine playoff and regular season but just saying wins matter.

Andy Pettitte being better than Roy Halladay is the most laughable thing I've read in a while.

What is so special about Andy's playoff performance? That he had 10 x's the opportunity that Roy had in the Playoffs? His career winning %, and era are almost identical to his career numbers. So his playoff performance was par for the course but not HOF worthy.

Let's not forget another small little factoid about Andy Pettitte he's an admitted cheater. Roy's career ended at a relatively young age. If he got on a solid HGH regime and played 3-4 more years he could have had another 60 wins added to his resume.

In my opinion Roy is not a sure fire first ballot hall of famer. I think he is a borderline guy. He doesn't have accumulated stats that blow people away 300 wins, 3000 k's, etc. But he at times was the most dominant pitcher in baseball. Something that can't be said about Andy Pettitte or some of the other guys mentioned above.

[Orioles1954]

Rick Reuschel better than Jim Palmer and Nolan Ryan?! I think I'll stick with Baseball Reference.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Rick Reuschel better than Jim Palmer and Nolan Ryan?! I think I'll stick with Baseball Reference.

Funny, that's exactly where I got my data.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Rick Reuschel better than Jim Palmer and Nolan Ryan?! I think I'll stick with Baseball Reference.

That was one of the most surprising things I found, but the algorithm works too well for me to throw it out in favor of my intuition. The important thing to remember is this analogy.

K:Nolan Ryan::BB: ___________

The answer is Nolan Ryan.

[Orioles1954]

Always a tragedy to lose someone so young. A true throwback.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

I just crunched my numbers from Baseball Reference and I conclude that Bob Forsch is the greatest pitcher of all-time.

Makes sense. I get Walter Johnson.

[timn1]

Halladay W/L +98 (Playing for slightly above average teams over his career) -

do you know how hard it is to do that? Seaver was at +106 with a hundred more wins and a hundred more losses. Palmer at +116 with mostly great teams.


Comparisons w recent HOFers:
Blyleven +37
Smoltz +58
Glavine +102
Pedro +119
Maddux +128
The Big Unit +137

Ryan +32 - to me that is all you need to know in order to rank Ryan.

[darwinbulldog]

I came here to praise Roy Halladay, not to bury Nolan Ryan, but I think when people just look at the strikeouts and no-hitters and can't figure out why anyone would say Ryan was not one of the greatest pitchers of all-time, they aren't considering that getting out is the modal/default outcome when a batter steps up to the plate, so issuing a walk is a very bad thing for a pitcher to do (case in point, the 2017 World Series) but striking a batter out is only a moderately good thing to do (if your goal is to win games).

[rats60]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I came here to praise Roy Halladay, not to bury Nolan Ryan, but I think when people just look at the strikeouts and no-hitters and can't figure out why anyone would say Ryan was not one of the greatest pitchers of all-time, they aren't considering that getting out is the modal/default outcome when a batter steps up to the plate, so issuing a walk is a very bad thing for a pitcher to do (case in point, the 2017 World Series) but striking a batter out is only a moderately good thing to do (if your goal is to win games).

We must not have been watching the same World Series. I never knew that Clayton Kershaw walking Marwin Gonzalez and Evan Gattis to get to a weaker hitter and the third out was a bad thing. I watch a lot of Baseball and I see pitchers pitch around good hitters or walk guys to set up a double play all the time. That is how I was taught to play the game, who knew we were all wrong?

I always thought the pitcher's job was to prevent runs. Isn't the winner of the game the one that scores the most runs and not the one that gets the most base runners. Nolan Ryan had a career ERA of 3.19 over 5386 innings. I don't see how anyone could rate another pitcher above him when they have a much higher ERA in a lot fewer innings.

[KMayUSA6060]

It's pretty disappointing that this thread has gone from a "pay your respects" discussion, to a d*** measuring contest between Halladay/Ryan/other HoFers.

RIP Doc. Stand out ballplayer and human being.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by rats60

We must not have been watching the same World Series. I never knew that Clayton Kershaw walking Marwin Gonzalez and Evan Gattis to get to a weaker hitter and the third out was a bad thing. I watch a lot of Baseball and I see pitchers pitch around good hitters or walk guys to set up a double play all the time. That is how I was taught to play the game, who knew we were all wrong?

I always thought the pitcher's job was to prevent runs. Isn't the winner of the game the one that scores the most runs and not the one that gets the most base runners. Nolan Ryan had a career ERA of 3.19 over 5386 innings. I don't see how anyone could rate another pitcher above him when they have a much higher ERA in a lot fewer innings.

Indeed, we know a lot more today about what we were wrong about back then. That was the whole point of Moneyball and the reason the people whose liveihood depends on it now use more sophisticated analyses of their baseball stats.

It's not worth while to respond to a straw man argument equating a lack of control with an intentional walk that happens to work out as planned.

If you just want to use ERA though, you're going to have to distract everyone from the fact that there have been hundreds of pitchers with better ERAs than Ryan. Feel free to throw out guys with fewer than 10 seasons or whatever, but he's nowhere near the top. I think we can agree that adjusted ERA+ provides a more suitable comparison for pitchers from different eras. In any case, we should, as it's more predictive of wins and losses. Halladay ranks #37. Ryan ranks #277.

I take it as a sign of respect for the game and its players that, when one of our favorite players passes away, we do what baseball fans do and engage in passionate discussions of why Wagner was better than Cobb or why Ruth was better than Mays or why Halladay was better than Ryan. If you show up at his funeral to tell his widow that Nolan Ryan was better that's disrespectful (in addition to being patently false). I don't think in a forum such as this at a time such as this we ought to limit ourselves to speaking in platitudes, though Halladay certainly deserves the platitudiest platitudes we can plate. And I'll be happy to drink to his memory with anyone who would care to join me.

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by jb217676

Derek, you'll need to get one of Doc's 1995 Signature Rookies for your pre-rookie collection. He has a regular card, signed card and signed 8" x 10" redemption photo. I picked up one of the signed 8" x 10" photos, pictures Doc in his Dunedin Blue Jays uniform.

Hmm...I was aware of the following: 1996 Best Dunedin, 1996 Dunedin Team Issue, and 1996 Dunedin Team Issue Update, but didn't know he had a card issued from 1995.

Thanks for the heads-up!