The various Tobacco Factory's and their associated T206 T-brand's

[tedzan]

Before we get into the Factory stuff, I have to emphasize this.....T206's were not printed at the various FACTORY's. As some on this forum have alluded to.

These cards were printed at the American Lithographic Co. in New York City. The production of these cards was the result of a complex 6-color process, which
is only possible at a sophisticated Lithographic printing firm. The Cigarette Factory's simply had machinery and employees that produced Tobacco products.


American Litho building is at 19th St. & Park Ave. South
Various professional offices now reside in it.



At the beginning of the 20th Century, PIEDMONT was the flagship brand of the American Tobacco Company (ATC). The PIEDMONT brand's market share was approx. 50 %
of all of ATC's tobacco production. The Richmond, VA plant produced many 100's of Millions of cigarettes.

Factory #25....Richmond, Virginia

... . . . . . .







Factory #30....New York City
. . . .





Factory #42....Durham, North Carolina
. . . . . . . .




These three Factory's were the major ATC manufacturing facilities on the East coast. Stay tuned, as more Factory's will follow.



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Liggett & Myers Factory #42 in Durham, North Carolina




TED Z
.

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Liggett & Myers Factory #42 in Durham, North Carolina




TED Z
.

Ted - what a wonderful picture of the old factory in Durham. The American Tobacco buildings have become the centerpiece of a major downtown revitalization project in Durham over the past decade. The ATC campus is now a beautiful mixed-use space that thousands of people enjoy every week. The iconic Lucky Strike towers in your picture are still there, and look down over the equally beautiful Durham Bulls Athletic Park. It's a great experience for any baseball fan.

[tedzan]

Really great photos, thanks for posting them.

I've been meaning to visit the Raleigh-Durham area on our trips to North Carolina.

We visit friends in the Great Smokey Mountains region (Sylva) occasionally, so on our next trip
we will stop in the Raleigh-Durham area.

Take care,


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Based on previous discussions here I think most people agree that t206's were not printed at the cigarette factories. My question is, with numbers in the hundreds of millions of t206's printed
in a time frame from around may 1909 to sometime in 1911 and ALC owning several large printing facilities during this time how can we be certain that all of the t206's were printed at their NYC facility.

[tedzan]

Old p/c with a view of Richmond from across the James River. Factory #25 comprises of a complex of buildings, warehouses, etc. identified as "Tobacco Row".
Perhaps, someone on this forum will chime in and provide us more detailed information.


.................................................. .................................................. ..............………......v...... Tobacco Row .…..v





TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Based on previous discussions here I think most people agree that t206's were not printed at the cigarette factories.

Yes, most T206 guys realize this now. Although, very recently a Net54 poster posted to the contrary.

Early 2005, when I first checked out this forum, very few had even heard of American Lithographic (ALC); and, their impact on all these Tobacco cards.
Brian Weisner, Scot Reader, and I were the first to inform everyone on this forum of ALC. You can use the Net54 Search function to read all about it.

Originally Posted by Pat R

My question is, with numbers in the hundreds of millions of t206's printed in a time frame from around may 1909 to sometime in 1911 and ALC
owning several large printing facilities during this time how can we be certain that all of the t206's were printed at their NYC facility.

I did NOT say...."hundreds of millions of t206's".

I said......"The Richmond, VA plant produced many 100's of Millions of cigarettes.".

I would estimate that 10 - 20 Million T206's were printed between Spring/Summer 1909 thru to the Spring of 1911. I base this figure on my (and other's) estimate
that approx. 2 Million T206's are currently in circulation.

OK, let's consider this hypothetical 20 Million number of T206's printed over a period of 2 years.

Approx. 10 Million cards per year divided by 333 working days/year (3 round the clock shifts) = 10,000 cards per day.

My research indicates that T206's essentially were printed on sheets of 100 cards. If true, then that results in 100 such sheets per day. Is this an ambitious estimate ?
Perhaps so, but it certainly was work-able.

I would bet that the NYC firm of American Lithographic was the sole facility that produced all the T206 cards during that 2-year period. What some fail to realize is that
these cardboard gems we love so much were just a relatively small part of ALC's lithographic operation.


Sorry about this lengthy post, but I'll close by noting that there are 52 subjects representing the New York Giants in the T206 set. This amount is far greater than any
other BB team's representation in the T206 set.
In my opinion, this tells us a lot about this New York based Lithographic firm....and, where these cards were printed.


TED Z
.

[The Nasty Nati]

More specially the address for the original ALC is 230 Park Avenue South. If you go on Google maps you can even see the American Lithographic Co plague/engraving as you go down Park Avenue South on the street view feature. I get a kick out of "stupid" things like this. I live in NYC and now I've gotta stop by there.

Thanks for the info Ted!

[tedzan]

Years ago, my wife and I were at Grand Central Station in NYC. We left the Station on Park Avenue and walked south down to 19th Street to check out
the American Lithographic building.
I was hoping to see some remnants of this great printing firm. Perhaps, a museum room with some impressive lithographic artwork, and even an uncut
sheet (or panel) of Tobacco cards.

What a disappointment, this huge guard at the entrance asked us what was the nature of our visit. I told him of the reason for our visit, he immediately
escorted us out of the building. He probably thought I was some sort of "kook".

I noticed in that short visit inside the building a lot of professional offices. It's shame that a small section of this building wasn't dedicated to a museum.


Anyhow, I didn't leave empty-handed, I snapped this picture of the transom above the front entrance.





TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Yes, most T206 guys realize this now. Although, very recently a Net54 poster posted to the contrary.

Early 2005, when I first checked out this forum, very few had even heard of American Lithographic (ALC); and, their impact on all these Tobacco cards.
Brian Weisner, Scot Reader, and I were the first to inform everyone on this forum of ALC. You can use the Net54 Search function to read all about it.





I did NOT say...."hundreds of millions of t206's".

I said......"The Richmond, VA plant produced many 100's of Millions of cigarettes.".

I would estimate that 10 - 20 Million T206's were printed between Spring/Summer 1909 thru to the Spring of 1911. I base this figure on my (and other's) estimate
that approx. 2 Million T206's are currently in circulation.

OK, let's consider this hypothetical 20 Million number of T206's printed over a period of 2 years.

Approx. 10 Million cards per year divided by 333 working days/year (3 round the clock shifts) = 10,000 cards per day.

My research indicates that T206's essentially were printed on sheets of 100 cards. If true, then that results in 100 such sheets per day. Is this an ambitious estimate ?
Perhaps so, but it certainly was work-able.

I would bet that the NYC firm of American Lithographic was the sole facility that produced all the T206 cards during that 2-year period. What some fail to realize is that
these cardboard gems we love so much were just a relatively small part of ALC's lithographic operation.


Sorry about this lengthy post, but I'll close by noting that there are 52 subjects representing the New York Giants in the T206 set. This amount is far greater than any
other BB team's representation in the T206 set.
In my opinion, this tells us a lot about this New York based Lithographic firm....and, where these cards were printed.


TED Z
.

Hi Ted,

I read your post, I know you were talking about cigarettes, I was referring to
some estimates I have seen, including Scot Readers estimate of possibly as high as 370 million t206's in his "inside t206" article. In the article he provides
some valid information on how he came up with his estimates.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Hi Ted,

I was referring to some estimates I have seen, including Scot Readers estimate of possibly as high as 370 million t206's in his "inside t206" article.
In the article he provides some valid information on how he came up with his estimates.

I very seldom differ with Scot; however, in this case I have to question his " 370 million T206's " estimate. I consider this estimate to be way too high for two reasons.

1st....If I recall correctly, about 9 years ago we arrived at T206 survivability number of 1.5 - 2 Million T206's currently in circulation. Assuming 370 Million is valid, that
translates into a "survivability factor" of approx. 0.5 %. Sorry guys, something doesn't jive here.....this factor is way too low.

2nd....What I think Scot has not accounted for in his estimate are the various Non-Sports issues (circa 1909 - 1911). Off the top of my mind I can name the T42 (Birds)
issue, T58 (Fish) issue, T59 (Flags) issue, etc. These insert cards were printed with American Beauty, Cycle, Old Mill, Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Cap advertising backs.
And, judging by the large numbers of them that have survived, ALC must have printed them in the many of Millions.

Furthermore, in January 1911 ALC started producing their Gold-Bordered issues with the T80 Military Series cards that had T206-type backs (Lenox, Old Mill, Tolstoi and
Uzit). And, judging from the present day availability of the T80's, ALC must have printed them in the many of Millions.

My point here is obvious, when you account for all the various insert card issues during the 1909-1911 timeline, there is really no accurate way of determining how many
T206's were originally printed and issued during this 2-year period.


TED Z
.

[brass_rat]

Great stuff, Ted! Thanks for teaching.

I was in Durham recently, and I happened to walk by Factory 42. It's all boarded up...probably ready to be converted into an office building like the rest of the ATC buildings nearby.

Cheers,
Steve

[atx840]

Nice Steve, great sign.

[yoyot1]

Originally Posted by brass_rat

Great stuff, Ted! Thanks for teaching.

I was in Durham recently, and I happened to walk by Factory 42. It's all boarded up...probably ready to be converted into an office building like the rest of the ATC buildings nearby.

Cheers,
Steve

That sign is on the Ligget & Myers Chesterfield building, which was built in 1948, so isn't the same as the Factory 42 on the T cards. I've tried to figure out what the actual factory #42 was (if it was a specific building in Durham, or just the whole ATC complex), but to no avail. A good history of the ATC complex is here.

It is a great sign though - was looking at it just yesterday.

[brass_rat]

Ahhh, bummer! Shows what I know about "old" buildings. I was anchored by the dates on nearby building plaques...

Thanks for the info!
Steve

Originally Posted by yoyot1

That sign is on the Ligget & Myers Chesterfield building, which was built in 1948, so isn't the same as the Factory 42 on the T cards. I've tried to figure out what the actual factory #42 was (if it was a specific building in Durham, or just the whole ATC complex), but to no avail. A good history of the ATC complex is here.

It is a great sign though - was looking at it just yesterday.

[yoyot1]

Originally Posted by brass_rat

Ahhh, bummer! Shows what I know about "old" buildings. I was anchored by the dates on nearby building plaques...

That whole complex was probably Factory 42; in between the Chesterfield and the Walker building is the old cigarette factory, which the Chesterfield replaced. Ted's postcard actually shows more of the same complex from the perspective of someone standing at the site of the Chesterfield (before it was built) looking northeast. The Toms and Hicks buildings are on the left, the Flowers building is in the middle, and the Cobb building is on the right. Washington Duke's house was on that Chesterfield site as well (until it was torn down around 1915). So you were probably in the right place

The American Tobacco Campus (depicted in the photos posted by Dan) is a couple blocks away. The water tower in Ted's postcard is not the Lucky Strike tower but a different one - there is another water tower in the background mid-right in the ballpark picture that is in the same location.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I very seldom differ with Scot; however, in this case I have to question his " 370 million T206's " estimate. I consider this estimate to be way too high for two reasons.

1st....If I recall correctly, about 9 years ago we arrived at T206 survivability number of 1.5 - 2 Million T206's currently in circulation. Assuming 370 Million is valid, that
translates into a "survivability factor" of approx. 0.5 %. Sorry guys, something doesn't jive here.....this factor is way too low.

2nd....What I think Scot has not accounted for in his estimate are the various Non-Sports issues (circa 1909 - 1911). Off the top of my mind I can name the T42 (Birds)
issue, T58 (Fish) issue, T59 (Flags) issue, etc. These insert cards were printed with American Beauty, Cycle, Old Mill, Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Cap advertising backs.
And, judging by the large numbers of them that have survived, ALC must have printed them in the many of Millions.

Furthermore, in January 1911 ALC started producing their Gold-Bordered issues with the T80 Military Series cards that had T206-type backs (Lenox, Old Mill, Tolstoi and
Uzit). And, judging from the present day availability of the T80's, ALC must have printed them in the many of Millions.

My point here is obvious, when you account for all the various insert card issues during the 1909-1911 timeline, there is really no accurate way of determining how many
T206's were originally printed and issued during this 2-year period.


TED Z
.

I posted copies of the pages where Scot discusses the possible print numbers
and survival % here is a breakdown of his reasoning.

1 T206 cards were distributed as a premium rather than a primary product. Most early 1900s cigarette purchasers were probably more interested
in a smoke than a small cardboard insert depicting a baseball player. Millions of
T206 cards may have been discarded without so much as an initial viewing.

2 T206 cards were distributed mainly to an adult population. Most adults are less interested in saving novelty items than kids.

3 Baseball cards had little economic value at the time. There was little financial incentive to keep them.

Plus these obstacles of survival over the past 100+ years. Several generations
of T206 owners, countless moves, harsh storage conditions and world war II paper drives.

He does take into account for the birds, fish ect... by stating the 370 million estimate may be considerably lower based on the reports that they may have
been inserted in packs in 1910-11.

I think the T206 numbers would still be well over 100 million, but either way whether they were birds ,fish, military men or flags they were still printed by the ALC in the 1909-11 time frame.

[dougscats]

Thanks for the lesson, Ted.

Found Scot Reader's stuff interesting too.

I'm bookmarking this page for reference.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by yoyot1

That sign is on the Ligget & Myers Chesterfield building, which was built in 1948, so isn't the same as the Factory 42 on the T cards. I've tried to figure out what the actual factory #42 was (if it was a specific building in Durham, or just the whole ATC complex), but to no avail. A good history of the ATC complex is here.

It is a great sign though - was looking at it just yesterday.

Tom

Thanks for the info....and, especially the link to the ATC complex history.


Steve

Thanks for posting your Liggett & Myers photos.



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

The EPDG cigars for many years were manufactured in Florida factory's in Tampa and Key West. The EPDG cards identify Factory #17 in Virginia,
which I think pertained to their cigarette production and was located in the greater Richmond area.




. . . . . . . .


..




TED Z
.

[tedzan]

The POLAR BEAR tobacco brand was produced in Middletown, Ohio (Factory 6).

The Demmitt and O'Hara cards provide us an insight into the timeline when the POLAR BEAR cards where initially introduced. The New York versions of Demmitt and O'Hara
were printed prior to the POLAR BEAR press runs. Subsequently, Demmitt and O'Hara were then traded to their respective St Louis teams for the 1910 season. Early in May,
both players were re-assigned to the Eastern League. The St Louis variations of Demmitt and O'Hara were printed ONLY with the POLAR BEAR back. Therefore, from this we
can conclude that the first series of POLAR BEAR cards were printed and issued circa..Spring/Summer 1910.




1912 Imperial Tobacco (C46)....Eastern (International) League cards of Demmitt and O'Hara





TED Z
.

[tedzan]

I am sure I'll have to dodge some flak aimed at me for saying this.....but as more info has surfaced in recent years regarding this card,
I've become convinced it is the 525th card in the T206 set.
To date, only 14 (or 15) examples have been confirmed. I really expect that more of these Cobb's will eventually be discovered.

In any event, my research suggests that Factory #33, 4th District was located in Wilson, NC. Wilson is only 54 miles from Factory #42,
4th District in Durham, NC.


.



TED Z
.

[1880nonsports]

if the words base ball series (or subjects) were on the back - sure looks like a T206 though ...... I conceded to the monster about half way through as it took too much time away from my core goals (and too new!) - but I always thought of it as arbitrary depending mostly on how one defined the groups.

[yoyot1]

Originally Posted by tedzan

In any event, my research suggests that Factory #33, 4th District was located in Wilson, NC. Wilson is only 54 miles from Factory #42,
4th District in Durham, NC.

What's the evidence pointing to Wilson? In older threads I've seen Reidsville, Wilson, and Durham posited as possible Factory 33 locations - what rules out the other two?

Not challenging the assertion, and I have no contradicting evidence, just curious.

[dealme]

I've always been somewhat curious about it, and this seems like a reasonable place to post this question. How regional was the distribution of T206s? Ted referenced Middletown, OH as the production location for Polar Bear. It seems reasonable to infer that cards issued with Polar Bear backs would have been much more prevalent in the Midwest. Is this actually the case, or did ATC make their various brands (specifically Piedmont and Sweet Cap) available throughout the country?

Along the same lines, how far west were T206s distributed? Obviously the eastern part of the country was far more settled and industrialized than the west in the 1909-1911 time-frame. Put another way, if I stop at a garage sale or flea market when visiting the Denver area, is it even worth looking?

I've found this to be a very interesting thread, especially the modern-day pics of older production facilities. Thanks to those that have posted.

Mark

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by dealme

I've always been somewhat curious about it, and this seems like a reasonable place to post this question. How regional was the distribution of T206s ?
Ted referenced Middletown, OH as the production location for Polar Bear. It seems reasonable to infer that cards issued with Polar Bear backs would have been much more prevalent in the Midwest. Is this actually the case, or did ATC make their various brands (specifically Piedmont and Sweet Cap) available throughout the country?

Along the same lines, how far west were T206s distributed? Obviously the eastern part of the country was far more settled and industrialized than the west in the 1909-1911 time-frame. Put another way, if I stop at a garage sale or flea market when visiting the Denver area, is it even worth looking?

I've found this to be a very interesting thread, especially the modern-day pics of older production facilities. Thanks to those that have posted.

Mark

Hi Mark

A very good question.
Although the following may be anecdotal, here are my experiences acquiring (or being involved in) original T206 collections during the past 35 years.


South Carolina...........400+ assorted all PIEDMONT cards, including 29 - OLD MILL Southern Leaguers

Atlanta, Georgia.........285 assorted all PIEDMONT cards

Pennsylvania..............220 different SOVEREIGN cards


Other T206 original finds......

Baltimore, MD............750 cards

Upstate New York......300+ different SOVEREIGN cards

St Louis......................43 - DRUM cards

Northern California.....184 - EPDG and OLD MILL cards

Maine.........................1000+ Tobacco cards


These quickly pop into my mind........but, there are many more



TED Z
.

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I am sure I'll have to dodge some flak aimed at me for saying this.....but as more info has surfaced in recent years regarding this card,
I've become convinced it is the 525th card in the T206 set.
To date, only 14 (or 15) examples have been confirmed. I really expect that more of these Cobb's will eventually be discovered.

In any event, my research suggests that Factory #33, 4th District was located in Wilson, NC. Wilson is only 54 miles from Factory #42,
4th District in Durham, NC.


.



TED Z
.

Hi Ted,

What are your thoughts on the Red Cobb w/ Cobb back actually being distributed in packs of cigarettes? It always seemed more likely to me, to be some sort of promotional item. Would Ty be able to order a sheet of Tobacco Cards with his own "brand back" to be given out at, for example, his car dealership in Georgia?

But, I guess if that was the case, why add a factory number to the card.

Any idea when the earliest known reference was to the Cobb back? Wondering if we have proof that these cards were around at the time that the rest of the T206's were being distributed.

Thanks as always for the insight!

best,

Steve

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by wolf441

Hi Ted,

1....What are your thoughts on the Red Cobb w/ Cobb back actually being distributed in packs of cigarettes? It always seemed more likely to me, to be some sort of promotional item. Would Ty be able to order a sheet of Tobacco Cards with his own "brand back" to be given out at, for example, his car dealership in Georgia?

2....But, I guess if that was the case, why add a factory number to the card.

3....Any idea when the earliest known reference was to the Cobb back? Wondering if we have proof that these cards were around at the time that the rest of the T206's were being distributed.

Thanks as always for the insight!

best,

Steve

Steve

My answers to your 3 questions......

1st....My guess is that they were not in cigarette packs, no packs have ever been found. And, I do not think they were included in the Ty Cobb Smoking Tobacco Tin.
Most likely, these cards were handed out to Cobb's friends and acquaintances.

2nd....The Factory number is necessary on this this card since it is associated with Cobb's Tobacco Tin (which also identifies Factory #33).

3rd....There was Georgia newspaper advertising in the Spring of 1910 introducing Cobb's new tobacco product.

Furthermore, former Georgia Senator Richard Russell's 1000+ tobacco card collection (which is on display at the Univ. of Georgia) includes this unique Ty Cobb card.
My research regarding Russell's childhood collection suggests that he acquired this card in 1910 when he was a teenager travelling with his Dad (a Judge) to Atlanta.


TED Z
.

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Steve

My answers to your 3 questions......

1st....My guess is that they were not in cigarette packs, no packs have ever been found. And, I do not think they were included in the Ty Cobb Smoking Tobacco Tin.
Most likely, these cards were handed out to Cobb's friends and acquaintances.

2nd....The Factory number is necessary on this this card since it is associated with Cobb's Tobacco Tin (which also identifies Factory #33).

3rd....There was Georgia newspaper advertising in the Spring of 1910 introducing Cobb's new tobacco product.

Furthermore, former Georgia Senator Richard Russell's 1000+ tobacco card collection (which is on display at the Univ. of Georgia) includes this unique Ty Cobb card.
My research regarding Russell's childhood collection suggests that he acquired this card in 1910 when he was a teenager travelling with his Dad (a Judge) to Atlanta.


TED Z
.

Thanks Ted!

Interesting stuff. Makes you wonder where in Atlanta he acquired it.

A direct gift from Cobb (as a celebrity of the day, I'd assume Cobb would most likely know some judges)?

A promotional give away at a minor league/semi pro game?

A give away as part of one of Cobb's business enterprises?

[tedzan]

My understanding is that Richard Russell's Dad was a well-connected Judge in Atlanta region. So, it's anyone's guess how the 13 year old Russell acquired the Ty Cobb card.

Incidentally, Russell's T206 collection also includes a Joe Doyle Natl'L card.

How many T206 collections can make that claim ?


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Factory #649 in New York state was the Tobacco manufacturing plant of the HINDU cigarettes during the printing of the T206 and T205 cards era.
And subsequently, the T201 and T202 era of their MECCA and HASSAN products, respectively.

Furthermore, in 1909, ATC transferred a portion of their SWEET CAPORAL cigarette production to Factory #649. So, American Lithographic had to
overprint their pre-printed SWEET CAPORAL 150, Factory #30 cards with #649 identification.





,







TED Z
.

[darwinbulldog]

Basic question here, but I couldn't find the answer. Do we know the printing year for each of the backs? I know the Polar Bears are from 1910, but otherwise is it just 150 series is 1909, 350 series 1910, and 460 series 1911? And what about the backs that don't identify the number of subjects?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Basic question here, but I couldn't find the answer. Do we know the printing year for each of the backs? I know the Polar Bears are from 1910, but otherwise is it just 150 series is 1909, 350 series 1910, and 460 series 1911? And what about the backs that don't identify the number of subjects?

The following is the results of my research. I don't claim that it's 100 % accurate, but it should be very close.


T206 back ....................... Year issued

AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 ...... 1910

AMERICAN BEAUTY 460....... 1911

BROAD LEAF 350 & 460 ...... 1910

CAROLINA BRIGHTS ........... 1910

CYCLE 350 & 460 ............... 1910

DRUM ............................... 1910

EL PRINCIPE de GALES ........ 1909 - 1910

Brown HINDU ..................... 1909

Red HINDU ......................... 1910

LENOX ............................... 1911

OLD MILL ........................... 1909 - 1910 -1911

PIEDMONT ......................... 1909 - 1910 -1911

POLAR BEAR ...................... 1910

SOVEREIGN ....................... 1909 - 1910

SWEET CAPORAL ................ 1909 - 1910

TOLSTOI ........................... 1910 -1911

UZIT ........................... ..... 1911


TED Z
.

[jl9999]

Is there any rhyme or reason to how players were selected for a particular back? I know that with the more common backs you can pretty much be assured that essentially every player would have one of those backs. I find it odd though how some of the best players of the day aren't found on some of the rarer backs. Obviously back then they didn't have the hindsight that we do in regards to this person and that person being in the hall of fame but it would still stand to reason that it would simply be good business to have the best players represented preferentially on ALL of the back variations not just a smattering here and there. It makes no sense to me why some of the more mediocre players would be representing Drum, Uzit or some other rarer back while many of the best players of the era were not.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The following is the results of my research. I don't claim that it's 100 % accurate, but it should be very close.


T206 back ....................... Year issued

AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 ...... 1910

AMERICAN BEAUTY 460....... 1911

BROAD LEAF 350 & 460 ...... 1910

CAROLINA BRIGHTS ........... 1910

CYCLE 350 & 460 ............... 1910

DRUM ............................... 1910

EL PRINCIPE de GALES ........ 1909 - 1910

Brown HINDU ..................... 1909

Red HINDU ......................... 1910

LENOX ............................... 1911

OLD MILL ........................... 1909 - 1910 -1911

PIEDMONT ......................... 1909 - 1910 -1911

POLAR BEAR ...................... 1910

SOVEREIGN ....................... 1909 - 1910

SWEET CAPORAL ................ 1909 - 1910

TOLSTOI ........................... 1910 -1911

UZIT ........................... ..... 1911


TED Z
.

That's what I was looking for. Thanks.

[tedzan]

I'll be dodging some incoming "flak" for posting this in this T206 thread. Nevertheless, this info is provided here for those of you on this forum who have an open mind.



Stylistic design of the T206 A-B-C-D connection of which the 1910 COUPON back corresponds with............





The 68 cards in the 1910 COUPON set are derived from an early press run of the 350 series of the T206 set. These cards were printed and issued in the Spring/Summer of 1910.

They are identical in every respect to their T206 cousins with the exception that the 1910 COUPON cards were printed on thin cardboard. My guess is that American Lithographic
printed these cards on thinner cardboard stock because these cards were not intended to serve as cigarette pack "stiffeners". The 1910 "COUPON" cigarettes were not marketed
in cigarette packs. This new brand was introduced into the marketplace packaged in cartons labelled "COUPON" Cigarettes that contained 100's of these cigarettes.





.





TED Z
.

[trdcrdkid]

I love all this stuff. It reminds me of the work done by bibliographers studying printed books from Shakespeare's time, reconstructing where and exactly when various books were printed, and which compositors set various pages.

One thing that stood out to me in the discussion of how many T206s were printed was Scot Reader's statement that "it has been reported that in 1910 and 1911 bird and fish subjects were distributed in some Old Mill, Piedmont, Sovereign and Sweet Caporal packs instead of baseball subjects". This is more than just "reported"; as Ted notes, it's well documented that bird cards (T42 in the ACC) and fish cards (T58) were distributed with some of the same brands as T206, and that T59 Flags of All Nations cards were distributed in packs of Sweet Caporal Little Cigars and Sweet Caporal Tobacco Wrappers, along with nine other brands. All these sets are extremely common, and are among more than 100 different sets of non-sport T cards distributed in the 1909-11 time frame.

Robert Forbes and Terrence Mitchell's book "American Tobacco Cards" has checklists for almost all of these sets, along with information about the tobacco brands advertised on the backs and the factory numbers associated with each brand. I went through that book and, for each of the factories where T206s were packaged, I made a list of the non-sport T card sets also packaged at that factory. Following is a list of each of the factories Ted discussed in this thread, with the T206 brands packaged at that factory, followed by a list of the non-sport sets also packaged at that factory, and the brands associated with each set at that factory. (As with T206s, some of the popular sets had certain brands packaged at some factories but not others.) Factories 25, 30, and 649 appear to have been among the busiest factories for packing tobacco cards, though some of the busiest factories, such as 7 and 593, did not package T206s. Factory 6 appears to have been used for various brands of scrap tobacco, and Factory 17 for cigars.

Factory 25 (Piedmont, American Beauty, Broad Leaf, Cycle, Drum, Sweet Caporal, Sovereign, Carolina Brights, Old Mill)
T27 Actress Series (Fatima)
T32 Artistic Pictures (Richmond Straight Cut)
T42 Bird Series (Cycle, Old Mill, Sovereign, Piedmont, Sweet Caporal)
T58 Fish Series (Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, Sovereign)
T59 Flags of All Nations (Hustler, Recruit, Sweet Caporal Little Cigars)
T86 Moving Picture Stars Series (Egyptian Oasis)
T97 Riddle Series (Perfection)
T106 State Girls Series (Fatima, Richmond Straight Cut)
T119 World Scenes and Portraits (Piedmont)

Factory 30 (Sweet Caporal, Tolstoi, Uzit, Lenox)
T29 Animals (Hassan)
T30 Arctic Scenes (Hassan)
T35 Ask Dad (Sweet Caporal)
T36 Auto-Drivers (Hassan, Mecca)
T42 Bird Series (Mecca)
T43 Bird Series (Mecca)
T53 Cowboy Series (Hassan)
T54 Cross Stitch (Egyptienne Straights)
T56 Emblem Series (Hassan)
T57 Fable Series (Turkish Trophies)
T58 Fish Series (Sweet Caporal)
T69 Historic Homes (Helmar)
T73 Indian Life in the 60s (Hassan)
T76 Jigsaw Puzzle Pictures (Turkish Trophies)
T77 Lighthouse Series (Hassan)
T79 Military Series (Tolstoi, Lenox)
T80 Military Series (Tolstoi, Lenox, Uzit, Cairo Monopol)
T88 Mutt & Jeff Series (Sweet Caporal Cigarettes, Sovereign Little Cigars, Sovereign Cigarettes)
T97 Riddle Series (Perfection)
T107 Seals and Coats of Arms (Helmar)
T118 The World's Greatest Explorers (Hassan)
T121 World War I Scenes (Sweet Caporal)

Factory 42 (Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, American Beauty)
T42 Bird Series (Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, American Beauty)
T97 Riddle Series (Perfection)
T106 State Girls Series (Perfection)
T114 Up To Date Comics (Fore 'n' Aft)
T119 World Scenes and Portraits (Piedmont)

Factory 17 (El Principe De Gales)
T68 Heroes of History/Men of History (Royal Bengals Cigars)
T70 Historical Events Series (Flexo Giants, Buffo Grand/Poncico/Le Roy Breva/Le Roy Major)
T99 Sights and Scenes of the World (Royal Bengals Cigars)

Factory 6 (Polar Bear)
T59 Flags of All Nations (Scrap Iron Scrap)
T68 Heroes of History/Men of History (Natural Leaf Scrap)
T99 Sights and Scenes of the World (Pah Handle Scrap)
T105 Assorted Standard Bearers (Honest Scrap)
T113 Types of Nations (Scrap Iron Scrap)

Factory 33 (Ty Cobb)
None

Factory 649 (Hindu, Sweet Caporal)
T25 Actors (Between the Acts)
T29 Animals (Hassan)
T30 Arctic Scenes (Hassan)
T36 Auto-Drivers (Hassan, Mecca)
T38 The Aviators (Tokio and Mezzin)
T42 Bird Series (Emblem, Mecca)
T43 Bird Series (Mecca)
T53 Cowboy Series (Hassan)
T56 Emblem Series (Hassan, Emblem)
T59 Flags of All Nations (Jack Rose, Sub Rosa Cigarros)
T73 Indian Life in the 60s (Hassan)
T77 Lighthouse Series (Hassan)
T79 Military Series (Fez)
T88 Mutt & Jeff Series (Silko, Sovereign)
T108 Theatres Old and New Series (Between the Acts)
T118 The World's Greatest Explorers (Hassan)

Factory 3 (T213 Coupon Type 1)
T82 Series of Movie Stars (Coupon)(also printed with Recruit and Athletic backs, which were packed at Factory 240, 1st District Pennsylvania)

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by jl9999

Is there any rhyme or reason to how players were selected for a particular back? I know that with the more common backs you can pretty much be assured that essentially every player would have one of those backs. I find it odd though how some of the best players of the day aren't found on some of the rarer backs. Obviously back then they didn't have the hindsight that we do in regards to this person and that person being in the hall of fame but it would still stand to reason that it would simply be good business to have the best players represented preferentially on ALL of the back variations not just a smattering here and there.
It makes no sense to me why some of the more mediocre players would be representing Drum, Uzit or some other rarer back while many of the best players of the era were not.

150 Series.....Essentially the major Stars (future HOFers) and veteran ballplayers were selected for this 1st series of T206's. The flagship brand of the American Tobacco Co.
circa 1909-1911 was the PIEDMONT brand. Therefore, approx. 50 % of the T206's were printed with this back. Followed by the SWEET CAPORAL and the SOVEREIGN brands.
And, to a lesser degree the HINDU brand.

350 Series.....As more Major League ballplayers (of lesser note) and the Minor Leaguers were added in this 2nd series, so were more T-brands added to the mix (AMERICAN
BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CAROLINA BRIGHTS, CYCLE, DRUM, EL PRINCIPE DE GALES, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, TOLSTOI)

460 Series.....In this last series many earlier ballplayers are featured, but with new teams. Rookies were also included. Plus 5 new backs were added to the mix (AMERICAN
BEAUTY 460, LENOX, red HINDU, PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42, UZIT)

My point is this....105 years ago, there was no way of knowing what we know now. American Lithographic produced pre-printed sheets of T206 fronts first. Then the tobacco
advertising backs were printed 2nd on these sheets, as the orders for T206 cards were received from the various tobacco factory's.

So, for example......the green portrait Cobb, printed in the 150 Series, will NOT be found with a DRUM or UZIT back. The red portrait Cobb, initially printed in the 350 Series,
will be found with a DRUM back. The red portrait Cobb was also printed in the 460 Series; but, will not be found with the UZIT back. The printing of T206's is a very complex
process which requires much study to fully understand it.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Great stuff......excellent research.

Thanks for posting this elaborate listing of Non-Sports sets issued within (and around) the timeline of the T206's.
It reinforces the point I was making in Post #11 in this thread.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Double post.

[tedzan]

The T215 cards were printed at American Lithographic in NYC. And shipped to the Lorillard plant (Factory #10) in Jersey City (NJ), and inserted in the Red Cross tobacco products.

A large find of Red Cross cards occurred some years back in the Louisiana area.


I'm not suggesting here that the T215-1 set should be classified as part of the T206 set (although the 96 cards in this set are virtually identical to their T206 "cousins"). Since the
timeline on these T215's spans 1910 - 1912, there are some team changes from their T206 counterparts. But, the majority of the T215's are the same as the T206's.

So guys, don't get into a tizzy over this inclusion on this thread.




TED Z
.

[ZachS]

Interesting research as usual, Ted. I was looking at my T53 set (I have 49 of 50 cards). Of my 49 cards only 1 is a Factory 30 and the remaining 48 are Factory 649. Do you know if the Factory 30 cards are actually that much more scarce than the 649s?

[tedzan]

The T53 Cowboys cards were printed with HASSAN backs. The majority of their HASSAN backs are Factory #649.

Furthermore, the majority HASSAN backs printed on T202's and T205's are also Factory #649.









TED Z
.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by ZachS

Interesting research as usual, Ted. I was looking at my T53 set (I have 49 of 50 cards). Of my 49 cards only 1 is a Factory 30 and the remaining 48 are Factory 649. Do you know if the Factory 30 cards are actually that much more scarce than the 649s?

I also have 49 T53s, though I think one is a duplicate. Six of mine are Factory 30, 43 are Factory 649.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The T215 cards were printed at American Lithographic in NYC. And shipped to the Lorillard plant (Factory #10) in Jersey City (NJ), and inserted in the Red Cross tobacco products.

A large find of Red Cross cards occurred some years back in the Louisiana area.

I'm not suggesting here that the T215-1 set should be classified as part of the T206 set (although the 96 cards in this set are virtually identical to their T206 "cousins"). Since the
timeline on these T215's spans 1910 - 1912, there are some team changes from their T206 counterparts. But, the majority of the T215's are the same as the T206's.

So guys, don't get into a tizzy over this inclusion on this thread.


TED Z
.

Get in in a tizzy? It's baseball cards.. We can always agree to disagree and discuss things Ted.

[canjond]

Not entirely on point, but here is some associated T206 packaging...

[wonkaticket]

That's very impressive Jon!

[tedzan]

An amazing array of T-brand packs.

Thanks for displaying them....they are a perfect fit for a thread like this one.


TED Z
.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Yes, most T206 guys realize this now. Although, very recently a Net54 poster posted to the contrary.

Early 2005, when I first checked out this forum, very few had even heard of American Lithographic (ALC); and, their impact on all these Tobacco cards.
Brian Weisner, Scot Reader, and I were the first to inform everyone on this forum of ALC. You can use the Net54 Search function to read all about it.





I did NOT say...."hundreds of millions of t206's".

I said......"The Richmond, VA plant produced many 100's of Millions of cigarettes.".

I would estimate that 10 - 20 Million T206's were printed between Spring/Summer 1909 thru to the Spring of 1911. I base this figure on my (and other's) estimate
that approx. 2 Million T206's are currently in circulation.

OK, let's consider this hypothetical 20 Million number of T206's printed over a period of 2 years.

Approx. 10 Million cards per year divided by 333 working days/year (3 round the clock shifts) = 10,000 cards per day.

My research indicates that T206's essentially were printed on sheets of 100 cards. If true, then that results in 100 such sheets per day. Is this an ambitious estimate ?
Perhaps so, but it certainly was work-able.

I would bet that the NYC firm of American Lithographic was the sole facility that produced all the T206 cards during that 2-year period. What some fail to realize is that
these cardboard gems we love so much were just a relatively small part of ALC's lithographic operation.


Sorry about this lengthy post, but I'll close by noting that there are 52 subjects representing the New York Giants in the T206 set. This amount is far greater than any
other BB team's representation in the T206 set.
In my opinion, this tells us a lot about this New York based Lithographic firm....and, where these cards were printed.


TED Z
.

While doing some reading on early T cards and their printing, I found an interesting letter in the Duke University on-line library. The letter was written in 1894 to James "Buck" Duke by his father - after "Buck" had taken over day-to-day control of what would then become the ATC. Hoping to spurn the negative image that came with using images of lascivious women in packs of cigarettes - for moral reasons as well as to prevent further legislative restrictions - father encouraged son to find a different subject matter. This form of advertisement then gave way to using images of baseball players on T cards.

It was the following letter which in part, gave rise to our hobby. The letter reads (emphasis are mine for clarity):

My Dear Son,
I have received the enclosed letter from the Rev. John C. Hocutt, and am very much impressed with the wisdom of his argument against circulating lascivious photographs with cigarettes, and have made up my mind to bring the matter to your attention in the interest of morality, and in the hope that you can invent a proper substitute for these pictures which will answer your requirements as an advertisement as well as an inducement to purchase. His views are so thoroughly and plainly stated that I do not know how that I can add anything except to state that they accord with my own, and that I have always looked upon the distribution of this character of advertisement as wrong in its pernicious effects upon young man and womanhood and therefore has not jingled with my religious impulses. Outside of the fact that we owe Christianity all the assistance we can lend it in any form, which is paramount to any other consideration, I am fully convinced that this mode of advertising will be used and greatly strengten (sic) the arguments against cigarettes in the legislative halls of the States. I hope you will consider this carefully and appreciate my side of the question. It will pleasure me much to know that a change had been made.

Affectionately, your father

Just an interesting side note...

Z

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by canjond

Not entirely on point, but here is some associated T206 packaging...

Nice display Jon.....