Greatest of all time

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by brewing

No it's the word I meant. Don't get me wrong, I think Koufax was great. I don't dispute he was the best pitcher on earth for 4 years either.

I don't believe he belongs in the discussion for greatest ever (living or dead) though. Not when considering the ballpark he pitched half his games in and the era he pitched.

It is true that Koufax clearly benefited from both the park he pitched in and the second most friendly era to pitchers of all time (large strike zone; high mound). That said, if you plug Lefty Grove's stats into the same era as Koufax, in Dodger Stadium, using the neutralization factors on www.baseballreference.com, what you get is a whole series of years that are pretty much identical to the best years of Koufax. Grove, however, was great for a much longer period of time, which is why his ERA+ (nearly 50% below league average) is better than Koufax's (about 31%, going by memory). And there is little objective room for dispute that Lefty Grove has to be in any rational discussion of the greatest pitchers of all time (he and Walter Johnson were each right around 50% below league ERA for their careers). Grove was handicapped in win totals because his minor league owner didn't want to sell him until the price was to his liking, and Connie Mack finally anted up.

Terrific thread and discussion!

Larry