Spalding, Reach and other cut outs sold on our BST

[Leon]

What do ya'll think about cut outs from magazines being sold on our BST? Also, what about the fringe grading companies that actually grade them? Any thoughts? I see some being sold and have mixed feelings. My initial thoughts are if they are advertised honestly, as cut outs from magazines, it's ok. But other opinions will be appreciated. And I am not accusing anyone of anything ......Thanks in advance for the feedback....

[4815162342]

Others may disagree, but I would vote not to allow this junk to be sold here. Or at the very least, require that it be advertised in the Everything Else section.

[Bill Rayburn]

I voted "Yes, but with caveat" because I collect wood cuts from 1800' Harpers, Leslie's, etc. and early magazine covers. I would hate to see them excluded.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Let them be sold as long as they are properly described.

[daves_resale_shop]

I have sold several Spalding/ reach cutouts on the board... Prior to selling them I have them framed and matted... The items are represented as cutouts, and offer the consumer a cheap and presentable way to get ahold of a period piece of a big name on a shoestring...

I have not had a single complaint to date on an item purchased by a fellow member...

Fwiw-i don't believe that these pieces should be professionally graded by any company..

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Leon

What do ya'll think about cut outs from magazines being sold on our BST? Also, what about the fringe grading companies that actually grade them? Any thoughts? I see some being sold and have mixed feelings. My initial thoughts are if they are advertised honestly, as cut outs from magazines, it's ok. But other opinions will be appreciated. And I am not accusing anyone of anything ......Thanks in advance for the feedback....

As long as they are described correctly and placed in the memorabilia section I don't mind.

[bigtrain]

Frankly, I am against anything that promotes destroying what I consider to be a legitimate collectible such as a Spalding or Reach guide by selling pieces of it. For the same reason, I stopped buying modern cards when companies like Upper Deck, etc. started cutting up game-used jerseys, bats and the like.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

As long as they are described correctly and placed in the memorabilia section I don't mind.

+1

[MooseDog]

Tom,

I heartily agree with you in terms of cutting up a perfectly good collectible, but I have a lot of experience in working with books and magazines for a local organization.

Some older paper items are already basically "cut up" condition, missing bindings, pages, basically worthless as a "whole" collectible. However many have interesting pictures and ads in them that I think should be saved.

Would you consider culling pictures and such from those types of items OK?

[pawpawdiv9]

i voted yes, but with caveat saying what it is and made clearly.
As a buyer/seller of a item: I had bought the Nolan Ryan pre-rookie from GregB Auction. I was unaware at the time what it really was until days after the bid i was told so. Later on, i sold the slab/card, not here, but on Ebay and 'clearly' stated it as such throughout the listing as a magazine cut-out and where it came from. Clearly underlined and enlarged and surround by parenthesis. The TPG PSA that graded the piece made it apart of their registry, so someone probably bought it due to become #1. But only based on speculation. Here is my sale to prove and follow as a example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/201012634337...84.m1561.l2649

[shammus]

I voted "no" here for a couple of reasons...

I don't want to see things that I've grown accustomed to seeing cluttering up Ebay, to now be cluttering up our BST. I'd probably throw Reprints into that catagory as well.

Also, I agree with what others have said, I don't like the destruction of original collectibles in order to make new ones. I feel that as long as a market continues to exist for these "second-hand collectibles", other valuable relics will continue to be hacked apart. By allowing them to be sold on BST, we only provide another source for that market to grow - and I'd prefer that it didn't...heh.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

Tom,

I heartily agree with you in terms of cutting up a perfectly good collectible, but I have a lot of experience in working with books and magazines for a local organization.

Some older paper items are already basically "cut up" condition, missing bindings, pages, basically worthless as a "whole" collectible. However many have interesting pictures and ads in them that I think should be saved.

Would you consider culling pictures and such from those types of items OK?

You directed this to Tom and I am not Tom, but here is my answer anyways

I think this is the gray area for me. If only a couple of pages can be salvaged from these books then I can see why. On the other hand what happens is that people see that those individual pages bring more money when you add all the pages together than the whole book, so it prompts others to start cutting up books to get the most monetary value out of it.

Then the person cutting up a full good book can say that it wasn't a good book and they are just preserving a few pages, but there is no way for the rest of us to know that is true.

It is a tough call and it is for that reason I say they can be sold with the info disclosed, but I don't ever want to buy one.

[Runscott]

Thanks for bringing this up, Leon. I'm completely against it for reasons well-documented.

I'm about to sell a run of Reach Guides from the 1880's-1930's and I will not sell any of them to anyone who I know has sold cut-outs in the past. These items are all out of print and can not be replaced.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by pawpawdiv9

i voted yes, but with caveat saying what it is and made clearly.
As a buyer/seller of a item: I had bought the Nolan Ryan pre-rookie from GregB Auction. I was unaware at the time what it really was until days after the bid i was told so. Later on, i sold the slab/card, not here, but on Ebay and 'clearly' stated it as such throughout the listing as a magazine cut-out and where it came from. Clearly underlined and enlarged and surround by parenthesis. The TPG PSA that graded the piece made it apart of their registry, so someone probably bought it due to become #1. But only based on speculation. Here is my sale to prove and follow as a example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/201012634337...84.m1561.l2649

I can't believe someone sold that without describing what it was. I really cat believe PSA graded it.

[Piratedogcardshows]

I voted yes but with a proper description.However after reading other responses it does seem like a shame to take a perfectly intact issue and cut it up.I have purchased a few Virginia League cutouts that were described as coming from a damaged copy but who knows if it was it not.

[bn2cardz]

The more I think about it I am willing to change my initial vote to no from yes with the correct info.

The poll won't let me change, but I am voicing it here.

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by MooseDog

Tom,

I heartily agree with you in terms of cutting up a perfectly good collectible, but I have a lot of experience in working with books and magazines for a local organization.

Some older paper items are already basically "cut up" condition, missing bindings, pages, basically worthless as a "whole" collectible. However many have interesting pictures and ads in them that I think should be saved.

Would you consider culling pictures and such from those types of items OK?

I have no problem with selling pages or pictures from a book that is basically destroyed already except that it may promote others to do the same with perfectly good collectibles. I do think these objects should not be graded. If PSA is now grading this stuff, then I am done with PSA.

[Exhibitman]

Provided they are described accurately, I figure people should be allowed to collect what they want. But that's from a guy whose focus is oddball and offbeat cards and related materials including some items cut from publications or other media:


















I am not sure where a "no cuts" ban would fall on the spectrum of things like the ones depicted above.

I think they can form a nice adjunct to a player or team or other themed collection as long as the buyer knows exactly what is being sold.

[ethicsprof]

I have to admit that I cringe when I see these Reach and Spalding cut-outs for
sale. I even find myself hoping as I click on sections of the BST that there
won't be any on there. Many years ago on the forum we would sometimes
talk a bit about these pieces being the worst things around in our hobby---
capturing the newbie again and again. In fact,they were perceived as an
embarrassment to the hobby. I know that through the years, we have seen
a few other 'worst things in the hobby' but I still cringe and find myself avoiding the BST more than I'd like since these items have come on board. I often say 'to each his own'. But not this time.
I'm with Brian M and Scott F on this one---unequivocally.
best,
barry

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I am not sure where a "no cuts" ban would fall on the spectrum of things like the ones depicted above.

I think they can form a nice adjunct to a player or team or other themed collection as long as the buyer knows exactly what is being sold.

They wouldn't be on the same spectrum - some of the items you show actually have scissor tracks, but I'm guessing most or all of them were intended to be 'collected' or cut out as items separate from whatever they were published with.

Reach and Spalding team photos, along with the textual information, were meant to support each other as part of a book. Once they are cut out, the book loses most of it's historical and monetary value. I asked Dave if you could get the rest of the book with the cut-outs he sells, and he said "sadly, no", which I don't think can be interpreted any way other than he cuts out the parts he likes, and throws the rest in the trash.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by ethicsprof

I have to admit that I cringe when I see these Reach and Spalding cut-outs for
sale. I even find myself hoping as I click on sections of the BST that there
won't be any on there. Many years ago on the forum we would sometimes
talk a bit about these pieces being the worst things around in our hobby---
capturing the newbie again and again. In fact,they were perceived as an
embarrassment to the hobby. I know that through the years, we have seen
a few other 'worst things in the hobby' but I still cringe and find myself avoiding the BST more than I'd like since these items have come on board. I often say 'to each his own'. But not this time.
I'm with Brian M and Scott F on this one---unequivocally.
best,
barry

Barry, one way that the BST cut-outs has helped me, is that now I know which books need to have their prices raised to a level that would make cutting them up prohibitive. If I end up sitting on them forever, sobeit.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

I have no problem with selling pages or pictures from a book that is basically destroyed already except that it may promote others to do the same with perfectly good collectibles.

And that is exactly what is happening, with the perpetrators claiming that they only buy destroyed books. There was a guy on ebay who was making this same claim, but we were able to tie his i.d. back to purchases of good reading copies of Reach and Spalding Guides.

This is really formulaic: is the selling price of the sum total of individual photos that can be cut out of a book greater than what the book costs? If so, people who don't really respect these items as historical pieces are going to buy them and then cut them up and sell the pieces.

To me it's similar to cutting up bats, jerseys or anything else of historical value, in order to cash in on its pieces - it then just becomes a matter of personal aesthetics. I'm sure there are those on this board who thinks a game-used bat card of Babe Ruth is a horror, but that a page out of a Reach Guide is a beautiful collectible. Or who don't care about the bat-piece card but think it's terrible that the bat was destroyed, but who could care less about a book being destroyed. I like bats, you like books - just a matter of taste.

[barrysloate]

While there is nothing illegal or even unethical in selling these cutouts, I voted "no" simply because I hate the fact that people destroy hundred year old artifacts just to line their pockets. I find that detestable.

[thecatspajamas]

I absolutely HATE the way these "cut-outs" are being produced and marketed as standalone collectibles. I'm sick of them coming up in my eBay searches, and I am disgusted by the wanton destruction a few individuals are wrecking on these old guides.

If you could guarantee that every one of these things came from a guide that was already falling apart and incomplete, I might feel differently, but that's not the case. To a man, if you ask the regular sellers of these things why they are carving up 100-year-old books, they will tell you they were already damaged, coming apart, etc. But you can look at their buying history, and clearly see that is not the case. Allowing and encouraging the selling of these individual pages is tantamount to allowing and encouraging the destruction of the guides. If a few sales of pages that legitimately fell out of a deteriorating guide are blocked, that is a small price to pay in my opinion.

Heaven help the Reach and Spalding guides if any of the major TPG's start grading these things. We'll have knuckleheads with exacto knives falling over each other to see who can cut the straightest line, and these guides will go the way of the dodo.

[Runscott]

Lance, can I print out your post above, and include it as an insert with each Guide I sell?

That was great - thanks.

[ethicsprof]

I have long been drawn to this hobby because of its uncanny ability to
rejuvenate my memories of baseball at its best---whether it be the perfect crystalline focus of the Big Train or the exquisite languor of the methodical,
mechanical Gehringer. Somehow, this great hobby allows me to retouch the
playing days of my own youth, much like the tea-dunked madeleines of old:
"No sooner had the warm liquid mixed with the crumbs touched my palate
that a shiver ran through me."(RoTPast)
I always choose a shiver over a cringe, viz. the artifacts and hagiographa
over the defaced.

all the best,
barry

[barrysloate]

While I'm ranting, let me add that I also hate the fact that these silly things are being slabbed. Shame on TPG (I know, they have no shame) for agreeing to slab them. All that does is encourage more people to tear up more books. Everyone knows that when you slab something it sells for far more than when it's raw. We may not like it, and it may not make much sense, but that's the truth about it. TPG's should JUST SAY NO. These are just worthless pages from a book and there is no reason to turn them into instant collectibles.

[sbfinley]

I don't see the difference between owning an individual guide page and owning a rare signature cut from a larger piece or album page. The history of the item is no more being destroyed as it is being altered for another purpose. Either way, as long as the recipient of the item is pleased with and enjoys it I don't see the issue or how it hurts the hobby.

For example I own this and other pages like it:






I picked it up here on the B/S/T a few years ago. It's on a shelf next to my desk. I appreciate the history of this team and wanted something to display that depicted it and that was from the period. I'm also a father in college with a mortgage and wife with a credit card so I'm realistic and sensible with my purchases. Hell, I'll probably take a pay cut when I enter teaching next year. I'll likely never own anything that graces the first 20 pages of an REA catalog, but I still want to collect the game's entire history. It's still a hundred year old artifact, its still historic, and it is still being appreciated. If someone here has a period cabinet or composite that depicts this team to replace mine for what I paid for this tell me where to send the check.

[Runscott]

Steve, if you could afford to buy that page from a book, you could afford to buy the entire book. You could then make a hi-res scan of the photo, put it behind glass, and it would be as aesthetically-pleasing (actually, moreso) as the real cut-out page is in a slab. Having the book nearby should satisfy your need to have a piece of history, but if the copy would suffice, you could then sell the book and use the money to help pay your mortgage.

[Jeffrompa]

I voted no but it made me think about chopping my Benz .

[ullmandds]

While this concept is appalling to me...similar to cutting a cobb bat or ruth jersey into a million pieces.. I answered the survey based on the premise that this practice cannot be stopped.


but in retrospect I'd like to change my answer to no so as not to promote the buying or selling of this "Stuff."

[obcbobd]

I voted yes, as long as they are marketed as so, but the more I think of it I'm not comfortable about it. I think destroying a 100+ year old piece of memorabilia is a shame.

Guess I'm kinda disappointed that there is a market for this stuff among our members.

Sigh

[Runscott]

Pete, Bob - If I saw these pages matted and framed, before I ever handled any of these historical books, I would probably consider buying them. I think it's natural, as they display very nicely. But you could also cut up the Book of Kells into individual pages, or even cut the illuminated areas out of some of the text pages, and they would each be incredible display pieces.

[ethicsprof]

very well said.
The Book of Kells was just the right choice for showing the import
of keeping hagiography in its original form. What a beautiful wonder this
seminal Irish masterpiece is.
In its own way, the hobby literature we often refer to has its own
sacrosanct place in the halls of scholarship.

all the best,
barry

[EvilKing00]

I voted yes as long as they are described as a cut out. I have bought and sold cutouts from reach and spalding guides and love the ones I own. Some of the images are really nice and they are original baseball memorabilia from those dates.

IMO having a 1915 cutout of ruth on his minor league team, or having a joe Jackson savannah team cut out, and so on are nice pieces to have.

I DO NOT think they should be graded, to me that makes no sense at all. The few I seen graded I stay away from just on principle.

Also I have seen a few ruth flip book pages that were singles graded, lol crazy what some of these Xbrand grading companies grade.

[Runscott]

Barry, sadly, ancient illuminated texts ARE being treated the same way as the Reach and Spalding Guides. You can find illuminated pages cut from prayer books, etc., in many auctions these days. The rationale is that a single page is affordable, whereas an entire book would not be. Fortunately that's not the case with Reach and Spalding Guides.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

I voted yes as long as they are described as a cut out. I have bought and sold cutouts from reach and spalding guides and love the ones I own. Some of the images are really nice and they are original baseball memorabilia from those dates.

IMO having a 1915 cutout of ruth on his minor league team, or having a joe Jackson savannah team cut out, and so on are nice pieces to have.

I DO NOT think they should be graded, to me that makes no sense at all. The few I seen graded I stay away from just on principle.

Also I have seen a few ruth flip book pages that were singles graded, lol crazy what some of these Xbrand grading companies grade.

No, they are not original baseball memorabilia - they are pieces of original baseball memorabilia. Hopefully you are not cutting pictures out of the other books you own.

[steve B]

I voted to allow it as long as they're described correctly.

I also dislike cutting up books or magazines for the plates or other images, but I've handled enough old paper to know there's a lot of it that's already been removed.

I've bought lots of old magazines, mainly two larger batches.

One was a smallish batch of magazines from about 1915-20, Most were national geographics. All of them were worn and missing the covers. They also had a lot of car ads and others which were selling well at the time. The old national geographics in nice condition sell for anywhere from 2-10 dollars now, but at the time they were maybe .50 to a dollar.

The other batch was huge, and came from a person who published a nostalgia magazine. Probably thousands of them ranging from the 1860's to 1940's. Some in excellent condition, some really not. A lot of them had had articles cut out to be used in the magazine or in a book about old fashioned Christmas he put out. There were also boxes full of the cutouts. Unfortunately for me they were almost all womens titles or general interest with nearly no sports at all unless it was by accident. Some of them are valuable, and even some cheap ones aren't common. But titles like "needlework" are under $10 in good condition, less in lots of a few magazines. The ones with covers and articles missing aren't worth much at all. But the back covers are all cream of wheat ads that sell, and one issue has an early ad directed at women for the 1920 presidential election. That one was like finding money in the trash.

Even some good titles like Godeys commonly have the color fashion plate removed. Sometimes for use in something more interesting. One thing I got my wife for Christmas was a Godeys print that had had needlework done over the images so it was a little 3-d ish, done probably in the late 1800's and framed at the time.

Steve B

[aelefson]

Hi-
I do like how the individual pages display from a guide, but I have never bought one nor will I sell one. I am especially against grading them.
However, I struggle with the display factor regarding old magazines that have nothing relevant to baseball on the cover, but have fascinating pictures inside. I have a flea market dealer who regularly provides me with a pile of old magazines for 1-3.00 each, and each one has a nice baseball article and photos. All are pre 1940, and most that I buy are pre 1920. I have never removed the baseball content, and do not plan to, but storing/displaying the entire publications is much more difficult than if I had pages.
Sometimes, I get completely separated baseball ads and other pages from this dealer. I know he does not separate them, and I know some folks will prefer them that way, and sometimes, I do too. I buy them this way. I feel there is a difference buying like this than the cutouts that started this thread.
Collectors have been cutting up old books at least since the late 1800s. There will always be collectors who prefer the whole, and others who want a piece, whether for display or affordability.
Please note that in regards to the specific pages from old guides selling for any price beyond 5-10.00 is ridiculous in my opinion, unless the item is well matted and framed (like some that were on the BST a few weeks ago).

Alan Elefson

[sporteq]

Apparently there's a market for them and the description looks honest.. Let him sell.

Albert

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

While this concept is appalling to me...similar to cutting a cobb bat or ruth jersey into a million pieces.. I answered the survey based on the premise that this practice cannot be stopped.


but in retrospect I'd like to change my answer to no so as not to promote the buying or selling of this "Stuff."

Me too, but the genie is out of the bottle...I'm not so sure the market is our BST with the attitude towards the practice that most here have, but if we are going to allow it don't clog up the card forums with it, keep it in the Memorabilia BST.

[BlueSky]

Leon,

Thanks for bringing this topic up. A couple of years ago I inherited a good number of early Spalding, Reach and other guides in various conditions. I have had the pleasure of reading a few of them. Lately, I have been considering selling them, but this discussion has made me think twice. I would hate if someone bought them and in turn rather them enjoying them, cut them up and sold them piecemeal.

I have no problem in folks buying and turning around and selling items, but to destroy something even if it was in poor to fair condition like this one shown really gives me heartburn.

Well, for now I am going to keep them, continue to read and enjoy them. Maybe sometime in the future I will consider selling them, but this discussion will remain in the back of my mind.

Marty

[jb217676]

Love that Lajoie book!

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by Runscott

No, they are not original baseball memorabilia - they are pieces of original baseball memorabilia. Hopefully you are not cutting pictures out of the other books you own.

Lol no i dont cut up books, but i did once buy a spalding book that was a mess, covers missing pages missing and falling out that i did remove the pages that were left. Some i keps some i sold. As far a a book in good shape i have 2 of them and would not cut them up.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

Lol no i dont cut up books, but i did once buy a spalding book that was a mess, covers missing pages missing and falling out that i did remove the pages that were left. Some i keps some i sold. As far a a book in good shape i have 2 of them and would not cut them up.

Thanks Steve - that's good to know. As Dan said, the genie is out of the bottle. I am very glad, though, that Leon got this discussion going - at the risk of upsetting a few people, we've at least gotten all of the relevant points on the table.

[Eric72]

I agree with those who posit that anything encouraging people to carve up 100 year old books should be frowned upon. I voted, "no."

Best regards,

Eric

[bnorth]

I vote that someone can do what ever they want with what they own as long as it is described properly when they sell it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

This thread is ridiculous at this point and some are losing focus of the original question as it was asked. It wasn’t “Do you think cutting up 100 year old pieces of memorabilia is a bad practice or not?” The question was “Should publication cut outs be allowed to be sold on the BST?”

I voted yes, with caveat (as long as they’re describing them accurately). People should leave their personal opinions out of it. I don’t like trimmed cards, but I would never interfere with someone’s right to sell them (as long as they’re describing them accurately) just because of my personal opinion.

[thecatspajamas]

The question was not, "Do they have a RIGHT to sell them?" It was "Should they be allowed to be sold on the BST" of Net54, a site that generally fosters the preservation of baseball antiquities. I voted "no" because I don't think that anything that encourages the destruction of vintage publications has any place in a forum that otherwise encourages their preservation. There are plenty of other venues where they can exercise their right to destroy whole collectibles and sell them off piecemeal.

The ultimate decision of whether they have the right to sell them HERE falls to Leon, and I appreciate him soliciting the opinions of the board members before making that decision.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

This thread is ridiculous at this point and some are losing focus of the original question as it was asked. It wasn’t “Do you think cutting up 100 year old pieces of memorabilia is a bad practice or not?” The question was “Should publication cut outs be allowed to be sold on the BST?”

I voted yes, with caveat (as long as they’re describing them accurately). People should leave their personal opinions out of it. I don’t like trimmed cards, but I would never interfere with someone’s right to sell them (as long as they’re describing them accurately) just because of my personal opinion.

It's more ridiculous when someone tells us how we should discuss things in a discussion forum. Next time you post and it's not a direct, clear and concise response to the exact question the OP posted, I'll be sure to let you know that you are ridiculous.