SGC Going Away?

[perezfan]

A good chunk of the YouTube Card community seems to feel SGC will inevitably be gone within 18 months. This widespread speculation was based on an off-the-cuff comment made by a prominent PSA-centric YouTube Content Creator.

To me, it seems like a serious knee-jerk reaction to one person's opinion. But it has spread like wildfire, and there are multiple videos posted in which people express some very thoughtful reasoning and opinions. I suppose nobody but the Collectors Execs know for sure, but I am really hoping these pundits are wrong.

Given the conglomeration of highly advanced collectors and the centuries of combined experience in this forum... I figured this would be the place to discuss it.

So what do you think? Is Collectors going to phase out SGC anytime soon, or is the SGC brand here to stay?

[Kutcher55]

These content creators love to hear themselves talk. One guy with a pretty good following makes 40 minute videos seemingly every other day to make the simplest point imaginable. I can only imagine how his wife tolerates him. What an angel she must be.

[rand1com]

My opinion only, not based on any inside information.

PSA will eventually do away with the SGC brand and utilize their capacity to grade and encapsulate for PSA brand.

It really makes no sense for them to maintain the two brands long term.

[Directly]

that will be an improvement turn over times from months to 10 days!

[tjisonline]

This is definitely the YouTube topic of the week.

I think it’s pretty obvious regarding the future of SGC and it prob doesn’t require a 5 minute video let alone anything longer. The days of SGC’s day to day operations as we (the customers) know it is about to change. The writing has been on the wall since Day 1 of the acquisition.

- SGC hasn’t done anything with their website & app since the collectors acquisition announcement.
- They did not grade on site at the national last year.
- SGC’s grading has become somewhat inconsistent to mirror PSA. min size not met anyone?
- The face of SGC (Peter) has been awfully quiet since the announcement outside of a few videos (increase turnaround times and the gem mint 1961 Wilt Chamberlain)
- For those of us who have been through acquisitions, usually takes between 18 and 24 months to see noticeable changes. Headcount reductions, elimination of duplicate processes, location closures, decisions, whether to eliminate / merge branding, integration of HR systems, etc..

In a perfect world which this isn’t, current Collectors & PSA leadership should allow SGC to do all vintage grading and holder everything in the PSA slab (NJ & Cali locations). I don’t think this will happen because the current leadership at PSA clearly DO NOT VALUE vintage submissions. Why? The majority of their revenue (via Gemrate data) clearly comes from modern submission (& it's not even close). In fact, I’ll take it a step further to say vintage probably causes them a lot of headaches (so many old PSA slabs contain trimmed & overgraded cards that prob causes ample card guarantee payouts)

regardless if SGC is still around or not in the future, not sure it matters. this isn't the SGC we grown to love. Some other folks would prob prefer it to cease instead of turning into another Beckett

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by rand1com

My opinion only, not based on any inside information.

PSA will eventually do away with the SGC brand and utilize their capacity to grade and encapsulate for PSA brand.

It really makes no sense for them to maintain the two brands long term.

Sadly, this is the most likely scenario. I’ve seen it personally in multiple companies. The process likely began the moment it was purchased.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by rand1com

My opinion only, not based on any inside information.

PSA will eventually do away with the SGC brand and utilize their capacity to grade and encapsulate for PSA brand.

It really makes no sense for them to maintain the two brands long term.

It definitely makes sense to keep SGC around.

Lots of ownership groups keep two brands alive (think Cabela's and Bass Pro). They do it for good reason. Having two industry leaders under your control insulates your top brand from competition. Think of it like this: SGC provides a buffer for PSA from the likes of BGS and CGC. Keeping #2 in the fold means those other companies have to compete with SGC for market share. PSA can cruise along at altitude above the fray and never really face a serious threat.

Collectors would be stupid to do away with SGC......so they probably will.

[JustinD]

I honestly don’t see them shutting down SGC. They are getting money either way and it pays to show competition in the market whether real or not when it’s owned by one group.

What I do see is the pricing structure changing to be more similar to PSA over time. They will want to bring the cash flow in line with their other holdings. They are likely attempting a registry behind the scenes as it doesn’t take a genius to understand the impact that competition makes towards the increased value of PSA cards. Once a registry is launched and other similar features as the PSA product it will bring the excuse for the pricing change.

[theshowandme]

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

These content creators love to hear themselves talk. One guy with a pretty good following makes 40 minute videos seemingly every other day to make the simplest point imaginable. I can only imagine how his wife tolerates him. What an angel she must be.

Who?

[Vintagedeputy]

If SGC goes away, I’ll stop getting cards graded because I just can’t stomach. the idea of giving PSA one dime.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

If SGC goes away, I’ll stop getting cards graded because I just can’t stomach. the idea of giving PSA one dime.

Collectors Universe (owner of PSA) bought SGC so technically if you're having cards slabbed by SGC, the cash flow goes back to the owners of PSA.

And what kind of discount do people think they'd get on SGC slabbed cards if SGC went away?

[luciobar1980]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

If SGC goes away, I’ll stop getting cards graded because I just can’t stomach. the idea of giving PSA one dime.

Me neither. CSG!!

[hawaiian bam bam]

Iceberg! straight ahead!

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by tjisonline

This is definitely the YouTube topic of the week.

I think it’s pretty obvious regarding the future of SGC and it prob doesn’t require a 5 minute video let alone anything longer. The days of SGC’s day to day operations as we (the customers) know it is about to change. The writing has been on the wall since Day 1 of the acquisition.

- SGC hasn’t done anything with their website & app since the collectors acquisition announcement.
- They did not grade on site at the national last year.
- SGC’s grading has become somewhat inconsistent to mirror PSA. min size not met anyone?
- The face of SGC (Peter) has been awfully quiet since the announcement outside of a few videos (increase turnaround times and the gem mint 1961 Wilt Chamberlain)
- For those of us who have been through acquisitions, usually takes between 18 and 24 months to see noticeable changes. Headcount reductions, elimination of duplicate processes, location closures, decisions, whether to eliminate / merge branding, integration of HR systems, etc..

In a perfect world which this isn’t, current Collectors & PSA leadership should allow SGC to do all vintage grading and holder everything in the PSA slab (NJ & Cali locations). I don’t think this will happen because the current leadership at PSA clearly DO NOT VALUE vintage submissions. Why? The majority of their revenue (via Gemrate data) clearly comes from modern submission (& it's not even close). In fact, I’ll take it a step further to say vintage probably causes them a lot of headaches (so many old PSA slabs contain trimmed & overgraded cards that prob causes ample card guarantee payouts)

regardless if SGC is still around or not in the future, not sure it matters. this isn't the SGC we grown to love. Some other folks would prob prefer it to cease instead of turning into another Beckett

I was in the same camp right after the news broke. But with it is now being over a year, I think they do keep both brands.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

If SGC goes away, I’ll stop getting cards graded because I just can’t stomach. the idea of giving PSA one dime.

Not sure I follow this argument. Both PSA and SGC are part of the same larger company. Any cash you pay to SGC ends up in the same bank account as any cash you pay to PSA.

But maybe it feels less icky if your credit card statement says SGC instead of saying PSA?

[Johnny630]

From what I remember hearing this has not happened because PSA will not cross SGC Cards over as same grade.

[frankbmd]

Does never get cheated apply to monopolies?

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

If SGC goes away, I’ll stop getting cards graded because I just can’t stomach. the idea of giving PSA one dime.

Agreed! +1
And every dime you send to SGC is a public vote against PSA, providing more and more reasons for PSA to keep their own brand separate from that of SGC even if they are jointly owned.

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

From what I remember hearing this has not happened because PSA will not cross SGC Cards over as same grade.

THIS!

I think PSA graders and their reviewers are trained to NOT follow the published grading standards listed on their web site. i recently tried to recently crossover 9 conservatively graded prewar and postwar vintage to PSA w/ the cards still in their SGC holders (+ two easy SGC 1s). so 11 in total. yes, i know this was a moronic move but wasted money anyway.

it went worse than expected. i went f'in 9 for 11. it was a joke. nothing crossed over except my 2 SGC 1s which were simple. i showed one or two examples on my interview last month w/ John Newman if you want to see the SGC 2 1938 Joe DiMaggio.

When i opened a case for that Joe D, it was automatically closed w/ this company line , "PSA is an educated opinion-based service, and sometimes, these opinions may not be agreed with. I know how important it is for your cards to reach their full potential while undergoing the grading process with us. Two graders look at the card, one of whom is a senior grader. They come to an agreement on the card's final grade. If you want the card looked at again, it must be submitted for a full review and crossover service. We will not provide a pre-paid label. I am sorry we can’t do more for you. ".

the psa support reps didn't even case both cards' grader notes supported the cards being crossed over w/ my min required grade (2 - good). they didn't care their published grading standard for the "good condition" matched the grader notes

my other customer support case was closed with very similar wording.

so I agree with Johnny that PSA will not crossover SGC slabs using the 1 to 1 direct grade. they will likely offer a discount to crossover along while asking us to bend over w/ taking the undeserved lower grade. why? because they can (& the history repeats itself) and they have that card guarantee in-place which is is a $ headache to them

[aconte]

Good Bye SGC! It was nice knowing you!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Here's the best business reason I can come up with to ditch SGC. Collector's shutters SGC and announces a special deal to cross all of those cards to PSA slabs. Massive influx of cash for little effort.

[jjbond]

I’ve said it before. I’d love for all vintage to be shipped to SGC (whether under its current name, PSA, or some new PSA Vintage title). I see no reason why modern graders should be looking at 100+ year old stuff.

[Beercan collector]

Crazy idea and a bit off topic - make one of them vintage only so we don’t gotta wait months and months for a company grading millions of modern crap.
Edit - Wow JJ bond addressed this while I was typing

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

If SGC goes away, I’ll stop getting cards graded because I just can’t stomach. the idea of giving PSA one dime.

And it's getting so that I can't really stand to give SGC any more $ either. My last submission (well documented on these boards) was a complete exercise in stupidity and inconsistency.

Soon going to be down to CGC as the last resort for card grading.........

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Here's the best business reason I can come up with to ditch SGC. Collector's shutters SGC and announces a special deal to cross all of those cards to PSA slabs. Massive influx of cash for little effort.

I am not disagreeing with you but they already do that in a way. Every time they change the flip or slab that is what happens. There are 2 major reasons I sold off 99% of my graded cards and the slab/flip change is one of them. Now this is just my opinion. When SGC changed their flip last time my first thought was I NEED to get my cards reholdered. Then I realized for myself as a collector I had a problem and sold sold sold.

[ZiggerZagger]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Here's the best business reason I can come up with to ditch SGC. Collector's shutters SGC and announces a special deal to cross all of those cards to PSA slabs. Massive influx of cash for little effort.

Scott -- great point. This is what a few collecting friends and I were spitballing last year as well.

Could easily see PSA offering a window for folks to get their SGC cards crossed over to PSA holders at grade -- probably coinciding with PSA formally shutting down new SGC submissions at some point.
"We recognize the rigorous historical standards of SGC grading are in line with our own here at PSA, etc, etc, etc.", and no charge if an SGC slab does not cross. Great moneymaker, and a way to refocus collectors to a new reality with TPG.

I'm probably 95% PSA in my collection, and would cross most of the rest if offered the chance to do so affordably. That is despite positive memories and experiences grading with and working with SGC in the past.
That said, I'd feel compelled to keep my T206 Lionel Carter Cobb and a T227 Charles Nagy Cobb in their original SGC holders. There would be something not right in my mind with failing to respect that provenance and history with SGC.
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[bobbvc]

Originally Posted by rand1com

My opinion only, not based on any inside information.

It really makes no sense for them to maintain the two brands long term.

Seems more efficient to only have the one brand if they own SGC anyway.

[parkplace33]

Can you imagine if this did happen and SGC stopped grading cards tomorrow? Goodness, lots of upset people.

[notfast]

SGC is churning out record numbers.

It makes absolutely zero sense to make them go away and there is zero chance some random YouTube content creator has any insight about something like this happening in the first place.

[Peter_Spaeth]

None of us, I assume, have any real insight into the incremental costs of running two brands within the same business in this instance, or the anticipated effect on revenues if they consolidate. Generally speaking, I think it's less rather than more common for a single company to maintain competing brands, but it happens.

[sacentaur]

When the American Tobacco company was acquiring competing producers back in the day, they opted to retain the original entities because those companies had brand loyalty attached to their names. Plus it was a good tactic to avoid the fact that they were building a monopoly, at least until 1911 when the courts ordered the monopoly broken up.

I do like the idea of retaining SGC for vintage and PSA handling the mountains of modern cards.

[sammythunder]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

None of us, I assume, have any real insight into the incremental costs of running two brands within the same business in this instance, or the anticipated effect on revenues if they consolidate.

Agreed. This is all speculation.

Generally speaking, I think it's less rather than more common for a single company to maintain competing brands, but it happens.

We see it all over in various businesses. The Auto Industry is a great example.

[Lucas00]

Its one of those things where you just have to say why?

Why would you stop making money from putting cards inside plastic? Paying somebody $20 an hour to put 60 cards in plastic that costs $2 per piece or less (they say tpg graders look at a card for about 1 min each) and charging let's say average of $25 each card would mean 3 or 4 $20/hr employees that handle the cards in their different steps are doing something close to $1500/hr for sgc. Its basically a money factory.

[Neal]

Originally Posted by rand1com

My opinion only, not based on any inside information.



PSA will eventually do away with the SGC brand and utilize their capacity to grade and encapsulate for PSA brand.



It really makes no sense for them to maintain the two brands long term.

Why?

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[Neal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

None of us, I assume, have any real insight into the incremental costs of running two brands within the same business in this instance, or the anticipated effect on revenues if they consolidate. Generally speaking, I think it's less rather than more common for a single company to maintain competing brands, but it happens.

Some of the most successful companies own several brands. If GM decided to get rid of Buick thinking they'll now buy Chevrolet instead, they may have done so. Or maybe they considered some Buick owners may buy a Ford instead. It's easier and cheaper to keep customers rather than find new ones.

I'd love to see the youtu.be video that started this wildfire -

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[Exhibitman]

Having different brands to cover different customer bases is as American as Budweiser and Michelob. SGC has completely different holders than PSA, a loyal customer base, and significant brand recognition; no reason to piss away all of that goodwill. I do think that they will eventually integrate the back office and web sites; that is a no-brainer cost saving measure.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Neal

Some of the most successful companies own several brands. If GM decided to get rid of Buick thinking they'll now buy Chevrolet instead, they may have done so. Or maybe they considered some Buick owners may buy a Ford instead. It's easier and cheaper to keep customers rather than find new ones.

I'd love to see the youtu.be video that started this wildfire -

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But there is no Ford in this case. People have nowhere else to go, really, other than PSA if SGC is discontinued. All depends on the economics, and we are not privy to those.

[polakoff]

Originally Posted by rand1com

My opinion only, not based on any inside information.

PSA will eventually do away with the SGC brand and utilize their capacity to grade and encapsulate for PSA brand.

It really makes no sense for them to maintain the two brands long term.

You might as well say:

Nike will eventually do away with the Converse brand and utilize their capacity to design and produce sneakers for the Nike brand.

Large corporations more frequently than not own "competing" brands within the same industry. There are a number of reasons for it, including the illusion of choice. Like, while you're debating whether to buy Crest vs. Oral-B, or Cascade vs. Dawn, or Tide vs. Gain, Proctor and Gamble doesn't care because in all cases they own both brands.

[drmondobueno]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

If SGC goes away, I’ll stop getting cards graded because I just can’t stomach. the idea of giving PSA one dime.

+1

[Snowman]

They're not going to shut down SGC. This is nonsense.

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by Snowman

They're not going to shut down SGC. This is nonsense.

Exactly.

"Nuf Sed" McGreevy.

PS You Tube Card Community? YTCC..... sounds like PWCC

[Neal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But there is no Ford in this case. People have nowhere else to go, really, other than PSA if SGC is discontinued. All depends on the economics, and we are not privy to those.

There is a "Ford" in this case ... not submitting at all. Collectors blow up SGC and I think a good number of slabheads go with it

[theshowandme]

I sent this thread and all of the YouTube videos to Nat Turner.

He can save a lot of money hiring people from here and YouTube. He doesn’t need those Harvard business school folks.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But there is no Ford in this case. People have nowhere else to go, really, other than PSA if SGC is discontinued. All depends on the economics, and we are not privy to those.

There doesn't need to be a "Ford." Keeping a second brand gives the illusion of a Ford.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that it is unusual for a large conglomerate to not have more than one brand in the same space in their portfolio, but it's not accurate. It is extremely common. And it makes perfect sense.

It makes zero sense to get rid of SGC.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Neal

There is a "Ford" in this case ... not submitting at all. Collectors blow up SGC and I think a good number of slabheads go with it

Agree. I, for one would simply not grade my cards, since I (like so many others) refuse to utilize PSA. If Collectors is tone-deaf enough to disband SGC, there's a slight chance give CGC a try. But that possibility is remote, and I would submit about one tenth as much.

More likely I would just stick with memorabilia over cards. It's much less of a "business" and is more fun to collect anyway.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Agree. I, for one would simply not grade my cards, since I (like so many others) refuse to utilize PSA. If Collectors is tone-deaf enough to disband SGC, there's a slight chance give CGC a try. But that possibility is remote, and I would submit about one tenth as much.

More likely I would just stick with memorabilia over cards. It's much less of a "business" and is more fun to collect anyway.

Then there's the question of what would happen to SGC's GU jersey grading service, headed by Dave Grob. It's the best in this field, and it would be crazy for them to throw that away. One more way the SGC brand name has stature within the hobby.

[aconte]

This thread has me singing like Dandy Don on Monday Night Football back
in the day. All together now.....

"Turn out the lights...the party's over! They say all good things must end.
Call it a night! The party's over!"

[Neal]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Then there's the question of what would happen to SGC's GU jersey grading service, headed by Dave Grob. It's the best in this field, and it would be crazy for them to throw that away. One more way the SGC brand name has stature within the hobby.

Dave could simply leave and start his own company

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[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Neal

Dave could simply leave and start his own company

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True, but from the standpoint of PSA, why would they want to lose him?

[Neal]

Originally Posted by Mark17

True, but from the standpoint of PSA, why would they want to lose him?

I'm not saying they would, but this potential shake-up could create a stir. There are certainly risks besides the guaranteed loss of some potential revenue, and losing an expert could be another.

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