Fake Lajoie slabbed by PSA, Ebay seller: vintage_card_shop

[nolemmings]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12671517166...wAAOSw6~9nBzQJ
I politely informed this Ebay seller that his card was not authentic, explained why, and suggested that he try and get some relief from PSA.
His response “HAHA".
I followed with what I believe to be a pretty straightforward explanation: "Look, I was only trying to help. There's another Lajoie on ebay right now-- compare them and you'll see what I mean. Frankly, compare your Lajoie to any m101-4 or m101-5, even the others you have for sale, and you will see that there is no gap between the photo and the frame-- the frameline goes right up against the photo. What you have is a Larry Fritsch reprint first sold 30+years ago and still available. Your card was purposely scuffed and otherwise made to look like it came from 1916. It did not.
I am not trying to get you to take less or scam you in any way-- frankly, I consider the card worthless. If you want to keep it up on ebay without noting that it is not genuine--so be it. Believe me, collectors from this set will take note."

His response “you=joke. BLOCKED Waist of my time”

I wanted to alert any members here to stay away from at least this card, and I would not object if others contacted him about it as well if you have time to waist .

[paul]

I guess now the buyer will find out if PSA's authentication program is a "waist" of time.

[brianp-beme]

Chock one up for PSA - they got the Lajoie, M101-5, and blank back part correct on their label. They just forgot that they shouldn't be grading reprints.

Brian (and that seller's responses were ridiculous)

[jp1216]

I'm guessing it's a fake slab or resealed. I don't like scans/pics with those plastic sleeves over the slab. It may be hiding the frosting of a resealed holder. Fingers crossed the Authentication process works this time around.

[jingram058]

Expensive cardboard = more + more fakery

Bound to happen

[Beercan collector]

It’s pictured on PSA’s website Price guide section

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

It’s pictured on PSA’s website Price guide section

PSA sure knows vintage!

For the record, the guy selling the Lajoie called me an idiot after I told him his card is fake as a 3 dollar bill.
.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

It’s pictured on PSA’s website Price guide section

This is just picking up stuff on ebay, that's not saying that it's a real PSA slab. That being said the cert number is correct for a PSA 1 M101-5 Lajoie Blank Back. Just sent a heads up to my Rep at PSA. Never done that before, will be interesting to see what happens.

[butchie_t]

Is the owner of the card the only person that can alert PSA or can anyone contact them and inform them of a graded fake card when they come across one?

Butch

[rand1com]

Well, if it sells on EBay it will go through their authentication process which means it goes back to PSA for authentication. Will they catch their problem, maybe?

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by rand1com

Well, if it sells on EBay it will go through their authentication process which means it goes back to PSA for authentication. Will they catch their problem, maybe?

I was under the impression that only the holder integrity is " Authenticated" at that facility . ? Was I misled ?

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I politely informed this Ebay seller that his card was not authentic, explained why, and suggested that he try and get some relief from PSA.
His response “HAHA".

I suspect that he might not care because he's selling the PSA label to those who collect PSA labels with the contained cards being no more than an afterthought.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MikeGarcia

I was under the impression that only the holder integrity is " Authenticated" at that facility . ? Was I misled ?

That is supposedly the extent of it, but perhaps for something this obvious?

[Leon]

His last response to me-

New message from: vintage_card_shop (4,173RED_STAR Star)

Already passed PSA when reholdered. You are an idiot and blocked.

.
Dang, and I was hoping to do the BIN at $400!

Looks like he has had over 140 views in the last 5 hours. He's probably like "Yippee....look at all of these guys drooling over my card."

[Brent G.]

I don't know anything about this card, but I assume it'd be worth a lot more than $400 if it was real? Isn't a $400 price tag essentially admitting it's bogus?

If it's a fake slab, you gotta give them credit for putting it in crooked just like PSA.

[Kutcher55]

His customer service and overall decorum seems lacking. And yet 100% customer satisfaction.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

I don't know anything about this card, but I assume it'd be worth a lot more than $400 if it was real? Isn't a $400 price tag essentially admitting it's bogus?

If it's a fake slab, you gotta give them credit for putting it in crooked just like PSA.

$400 sounds like the right neighborhood.

[swarmee]

They already know there is an issue.

The certification number provided, #12396968, was intentionally DEACTIVATED in the database.

https://www.psacard.com/cert/12396968

[Balticfox]

Interesting! When/why does PSA deactivate certification numbers? Only when there's evidence of holder/slab tampering or when they suspect they may have erred in their assessment of a certain card?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by swarmee

They already know there is an issue.


https://www.psacard.com/cert/12396968

Interesting. It was active when I reported it to my rep. Haven't heard back yet, but maybe this was the response.

[nolemmings]

The card is no longer available on Ebay.

[Brent G.]

What happens when you click the link now:

Great work -- not a "WAIST OF TIME!"

[Exhibitman]

All I can say is that somewhere a village is missing its idiot.

[jp1216]

Thanks to the OP for posting pics before the eBay listing went poof.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

All I can say is that somewhere a village is missing its idiot.

I would argue that the missing idiot resides at PSA. The seller is more like the Village Shyster.

Only PSA could "center" a card that poorly within the slab. It's an "art form" for them. A criminal would at least try to straighten and center it.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

All I can say is that somewhere a village is missing its idiot.

hahahahaha, and his card. chortle.

[Yoda]

Yeah, I can imagine that his waist is blocked; it is full of fecal material.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I would argue that the missing idiot resides at PSA. The seller is more like the Village Shyster.

Only PSA could "center" a card that poorly within the slab. It's an "art form" for them. A criminal would at least try to straighten and center it.

It was probably straight when they shipped it. Usually it's easy enough to tap them back into place. Not the issue here.

[Kutcher55]

Looks like you guys got the last laugh on that fart-knocker.

[maniac_73]

That’s disappointing as I’ve bought from that seller before and never had an issue


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I would argue that the missing idiot resides at PSA. The seller is more like the Village Shyster.

Only PSA could "center" a card that poorly within the slab. It's an "art form" for them. A criminal would at least try to straighten and center it.

I didn't specify which village...

[TiffanyCards]

Added to the Altered Card Database

[Balticfox]

Can we assume therefore that there'd been no tampering with the slab? It was strictly a case of PSA erring when they graded the card?

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

Added to the Altered Card Database

Does the Altered Card Database have a section for fake cards slabbed by the TPGs?

Not being snarky, I'm genuinely curious.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Not being snarky, I'm genuinely curious.

There's no need to be apologetic in any case. A company should be accountable for its actions.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

There's no need to be apologetic in any case. A company should be accountable for its actions.

I wasn't being apologetic, just clarifying the fact that it was a question. Fake cards in TPG holders should be documented somewhere, yes?

Even if [insert name of TPG] deactivates the cert number, there's a good chance the slabbed card will be out there. I see the value in a central repository, with images, for all these fake cards.

The Altered Card Database is a somewhat well-known (and frequently used) hobby tool. A section for fake slabbed cards would be an added dimension of utility...in my opinion, at least.

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Does the Altered Card Database have a section for fake cards slabbed by the TPGs?

Not being snarky, I'm genuinely curious.

I add all cards that have been suspected of being altered, faked, mislabeled, or stolen.

There is not a specific section for fakes, but you can do a search for them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

Added to the Altered Card Database

Welcome back Nick Dragovich! We missed you. Will you be continuing to post under your Miss Tiffany identity or will you be using your previously banned username here instead? Just want to make sure I know who I'm talking to.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

I add all cards that have been suspected of being altered, faked, mislabeled, or stolen.

There is not a specific section for fakes, but you can do a search for them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[insert thumbs up emoji]

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it.

[StraightRaceCards]

I love seeing justice being served.

The hobby has no room for blatant scammers.

Thanks for posting the eBay link, always glad to educate myself on these.

Good reminder that just because a card is slabbed, doesn’t mean it’s authentic

[Eric72]

It appears PSA has deactivated the cert #

https://www.psacard.com/cert/12396968

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Chock one up for PSA - they got the Lajoie, M101-5, and blank back part correct on their label. They just forgot that they shouldn't be grading reprints.

Originally Posted by jingram058

Expensive cardboard = more + more fakery

Originally Posted by Leon

PSA sure knows vintage!

The more I think about it, the more obvious it is to me that the card is not a present day fake.

First of all, no fraud artist would have sealed the card so crookedly. Sloppiness of that magnitude is a PSA hallmark.

But I don't understand how/why any fraudster would have added the black line around the player's photo. This card looks to be some other shyster's knockoff of these M101-5 cards that they used to sell their own product in 1916-17 without having to pay for the cards. So copyright infringement from over a century ago. Yes, there are other examples of this phenomenon. Outfits in the Philippines and other U.S. territorial possessions were often inclined to knock off American material and release it as their own.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

The more I think about it, the more obvious it is to me that the card is not a present day fake.

First of all, no fraud artist would have sealed the card so crookedly. Sloppiness of that magnitude is a PSA hallmark.

But I don't understand how/why any fraudster would have added the black line around the player's photo. This card looks to be some other shyster's knockoff of these M101-5 cards that they used to sell their own product in 1916-17 without having to pay for the cards. So copyright infringement from over a century ago. Yes, there are other examples of this phenomenon. Outfits in the Philippines and other U.S. territorial possessions were often inclined to knock off American material and release it as their own.

Completely agree with this. You should have seen the stuff for sale in Hong Kong, Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines back in the 1980s and 90s. Everything, and I mean everything, copied and for sale for pennies on the dollar.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

But I don't understand how/why any fraudster would have added the black line around the player's photo. This card looks to be some other shyster's knockoff of these M101-5 cards that they used to sell their own product in 1916-17 without having to pay for the cards. So copyright infringement from over a century ago. Yes, there are other examples of this phenomenon. Outfits in the Philippines and other U.S. territorial possessions were often inclined to knock off American material and release it as their own.

Just in case this claim was serious - this card is just a Fritsch reprint, which was not produced for fraudulent purposes, altered by somebody else to look old. That's why the lines are how they are, matching the Fritsch copy. This is not from 1916-1917. It is not from the Philippines. It is not copyright infringement from over a century ago.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Completely agree with this. You should have seen the stuff for sale in Hong Kong, Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines back in the 1980s and 90s. Everything, and I mean everything, copied and for sale for pennies on the dollar.

It is still like that now plus you can have pretty much an exact copy of anything you don't see made if you want to order enough.

They have everything from very low end copies that look bad from a long way away to super high end fakes that can and do fool some experts.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by G1911

Just in case this claim was serious....

Huh?! Why would I not be serious?

Originally Posted by G1911

...this card is just a Fritsch reprint, which was not produced for fraudulent purposes, altered by somebody else to look old. That's why the lines are how they are, matching the Fritsch copy. This is not from 1916-1917. It is not from the Philippines. It is not copyright infringement from over a century ago.

That's the first mention of Fritsch reprint I've seen in this thread. If you're referring to Larry Fritsch Cards (from whom I've bought), whyever would they have produced a copy of a 100+ year old card anyway?

[Rich Klein]

Fritsch as TCMA did in the 1970's (1973 had several) issued those reprints and clearly marked as such so collectors could have cards they might have

1) Never Seen or were very difficult to find

2) Could not afford

3) At a price level they (Meaning Fritsch TCMA etc.) could make $$$.


Regards
Rich

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Huh?! Why would I not be serious?



That's the first mention of Fritsch reprint I've seen in this thread. If you're referring to Larry Fritsch Cards (from whom I've bought), whyever would they have produced a copy of a 100+ year old card anyway?

Fritsch reprints were mentioned in the OP.

Originally Posted by nolemmings

What you have is a Larry Fritsch reprint first sold 30+years ago and still available. Your card was purposely scuffed and otherwise made to look like it came from 1916. It did not.

Larry Fritsch was the king of reprints. It's amazing that a regular customer wouldn't know this.

There was nothing nefarious about it, they were sold and usually clearly marked Reprint. Between he and Larry Gelman of Card Collectors Company they produced nice quality reprints largely of sets most collectors couldn't afford.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Huh?! Why would I not be serious?



That's the first mention of Fritsch reprint I've seen in this thread. If you're referring to Larry Fritsch Cards (from whom I've bought), whyever would they have produced a copy of a 100+ year old card anyway?

I mean, Fritsch was right there in the OP, and it's pretty obvious that this is just a reprint and not some Phillipines period pirated item. I'm positive we can all figure out why a reprint of a 100 year old card would be made. How can somebody be a Fritsch customer and not be familiar with the tons of reprints filling their catalogs still to this day? There's no exciting conspiracy here, it's just a Fritsch reprint that has been aged and the "Reprint" stamp removed to try and fool some people.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by G1911

...it's pretty obvious that this is just a reprint and not some Phillipines period pirated item.

Well clearly it wasn't obvious to PSA either and they're in the card grading/authentication business.

Originally Posted by G1911

I'm positive we can all figure out why a reprint of a 100 year old card would be made.

Well it's also pretty obvious to any collector that reprints can/will eventually be passed off as the real thing. Therefore why couldn't a pro such as Larry Fritsch figure that out before reprinting the darn thing? Was he just trying to make a quick buck the consequences be damned? Is that what you're saying?

Originally Posted by G1911

How can somebody be a Fritsch customer and not be familiar with the tons of reprints filling their catalogs still to this day?

A customer(me) from circa 2000 who had no interest in any reprints of pre-WWI cards that might or might not have been in Fritsch's catalog at the time certainly could.

Originally Posted by G1911

There's no exciting conspiracy here, it's just a Fritsch reprint that has been aged and the "Reprint" stamp removed to try and fool some people.

Excuse me but I wasn't positing any "conspiracy". I was just guessing that the card could simply have originated from a knock off printing back in the day. You're the one suggesting that a conspiracy to deceive by removing a reprint stamp and subjecting the card to aging is in evidence here.

The question now is whether PSA will compensate anyone who relied on their "authentication" for any losses they may have sustained purchasing this piece of crap slab.