Buying a Raw 1959 Topps Mickey Mantle, SGC "NO", & Dealer Responsibility

[mintacular]

I bought a raw 1959 Topps Mickey Mantle at a local show recently and SGC has graded it a "NO". I don't have the card back in hand yet. Possible meaning of this: Counterfeit, Trimmed? If I remember correctly SGC would use COUNT for a counterfeit card, and "AUTH" for a card that is trimmed recolored, etc., so what exactly is a "NO"? I spent $700-ish on the card and was hoping it would grade a 5 or maybe slightly better for my PC.

Do you think the dealer has a responsibility to refund me or is this simply the admission price for buying raw? I have no reason to think it was an intentional thing and I've been on both ends of the buyer/seller table. So, I'm genuinely torn on what is fair/ethical. Unfortunately, I have no desire to own a card that didn't pass authentication, so a partial refund is out of the question.

What do you think? Thanks in advance for your opinion, -Pat

[parkplace33]

Can you post before pictures of the Mantle? I think it would help with the discussion.

[glchen]

I looked it up, and "NO" means Do Not Grade. Therefore, this does not mean that the card is counterfeit, but it means that the SGC does not grade this card. Of course, SGC does grade 1959 Topps cards. Therefore, what this probably means is that the card is Altered or just Authentic. When you do a submission to SGC, you can check the box to encapsulate the card even if it were Altered or even if the grade would only be returned as Authentic and not a number grade. If you did not check the boxes, the card could still be returned back to you with the "NO" reason.

Therefore, my guess is that your card is authentic but trimmed or altered in some way. (another possibility is it didn't meet minimum size requirements) Since you bought it raw from the dealer, it's unlikely he would accept any kind of return or refund since the card is authentic, and you were able to inspect the card personally yourself before you bought it. You can still give it a shot if it's a well known dealer. Sorry about your situation.

[hammertime]

Holding dealers responsible when raw cards don't grade the way you want them to is a slippery slope IMO. If you wanted an SGC 5 you should've bought an SGC 5.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by mintacular

Do you think the dealer has a responsibility to refund me

Absolutely not. A show isn't eBay or Amazon. WYSIWYG. You get to look over the card and decide to purchase it, and unless the seller gave you an enforceable guarantee that it would be slabbed with a numerical grade, you take the risk. If you wanted a graded card, you should have bought one.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

...and eBay is turning into Amazon. I was forced to refund a buyer for a vintage item of sports memorabilia. Their reason of "I don't want this anymore" was apparently acceptable to eBay. Pardon? That's preposterous. I immediately did two things: blocked the buyer and implemented a restocking fee for returns based on ridiculous reasons.

Yes, I accept returns, but this is the first truly frivolous reason I've ever been given in nearly 30 years that I was expected to comply with. If this is what it's coming to, then my somewhat high restocking fee is the only recourse. It's spelled out in each listing, so it's on the buyer to actually read the descriptions. I can't believe that eBay filters out 95% of the content of descriptions on their app so that a buyer has to tap again in order to see it in its entirety. This is just wrong for all involved parties.

[SAllen2556]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Absolutely not. A show isn't eBay or Amazon. WYSIWYG. You get to look over the card and decide to purchase it, and unless the seller gave you an enforceable guarantee that it would be slabbed with a numerical grade, you take the risk. If you wanted a graded card, you should have bought one.

Talk about a slippery slope! This is the slope that has been slud down for decades now by card dealers who have the integrity of used car salesmen.

You can set up at a card show, knowingly sell trimmed cards and face absolutely no recourse. I understand your point of view and actually mostly agree - it's on the buyer - but this point of view most certainly promotes bad behavior - and has for decades.

But this is what you get in a business that requires no education, has no licensing, no regulation, and no governing body. Try asking a dealer at a card show for a receipt when you buy a card at a show. The response is hilarious!

I suppose you could sue the dealer, but you'd have to be able to prove that the card you sent in was the same card he sold you.

[jsfriedm]

Originally Posted by hammertime

Holding dealers responsible when raw cards don't grade the way you want them to is a slippery slope IMO. If you wanted an SGC 5 you should've bought an SGC 5.

I generally agree with you in principle. However, this is precisely why raw cards should be priced at a significant discount to their graded equivalents. If you have a card that you think would grade an SGC 5, but you did not get it graded, do not price it as the equivalent of an SGC 5. I agree of course, that it is also on the buyer to do their research, and he shouldn't pay a graded price for a raw card, but I've seen many dealers play this game of pricing cards as if they're graded but then taking no responsibility if the card doesn't actually grade the way they priced it.

[Smanzari]

If you did not select "Encapsulate if Altered," and it is, this is what it gets. I agree with what these guys are saying, if it did not hit a minimum grade, its on you; but its sounding like it was Altered, given the "NO" so the seller 100% should have full responsibility.

Grade chasing is one thing, but selling an altered card as non-altered is another. If this is the case, any respectable dealer should offer a refund or an exchange, and if applicable, should be put on blast for selling altered cards

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

I generally agree with you in principle. However, this is precisely why raw cards should be priced at a significant discount to their graded equivalents. If you have a card that you think would grade an SGC 5, but you did not get it graded, do not price it as the equivalent of an SGC 5. I agree of course, that it is also on the buyer to do their research, and he shouldn't pay a graded price for a raw card, but I've seen many dealers play this game of pricing cards as if they're graded but then taking no responsibility if the card doesn't actually grade the way they priced it.

Maybe the dealer should just give the customer all his raw cards! Fun!

[mintacular]

Originally Posted by Smanzari

If you did not select "Encapsulate if Altered," and it is, this is what it gets. I agree with what these guys are saying, if it did not hit a minimum grade, its on you; but its sounding like it was Altered, given the "NO" so the seller 100% should have full responsibility.

Grade chasing is one thing, but selling an altered card as non-altered is another. If this is the case, any respectable dealer should offer a refund or an exchange, and if applicable, should be put on blast for selling altered cards

Yes, this was not grade chasing. I would not pursue this if the card had come back lesser than expected. I don't think I checked the "encapsulate" if altered as I would not want the card in an "A" holder and to me that also might make the grader think the card could be/ is anticipated to grade authentic/altered.

I will try to post a picture later, I do concede (in my mind) that this situation is not a slam dunk as to what the right resolution is.... I've also considered grading with PSA and waiting for their opinion before approaching the dealer. Another small detail is that the dealer did say they thought it was a "6" and I told them I thought more like a 5 or 5.5.... In other words, this dealer did not offer any statement like "I can't guarantee anything, I don't know how it would grade, no refunds, etc."

The reason I made this post is that there are two very stark and different opinions (Adam/Exhibit Man & Smanzari/ Stefan) and wanted to hear all sides before making a decision as to how I should proceed.....

[Eric72]

Did you measure the card (or compare it to a known full-sized '59 Topps example) before purchasing?

[mintacular]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Did you measure the card (or compare it to a known full-sized '59 Topps example) before purchasing?

No, somehow I think breaking out a ruler at a show would not go over well. Here is the card in question.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by mintacular

No, somehow I think breaking out a ruler at a show would not go over well. Here is the card in question.

Back in the 90's at Tuff-Stuff shows, I saw a few collectors break out small tailor rulers and jeweler loupes. The practice went over fine. Now that I have two cards picked up raw at those shows and graded as "evidence of trimming" and "minimum size req", I wish that I had measured the cards. That is the rub, I can't say the dealer knew, but I can't rule it out either. If a dealer objects, simply move on to another dealer.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by mintacular

No, somehow I think breaking out a ruler at a show would not go over well. Here is the card in question.

I tend to use a card (measured at home) to compare a potential purchase to. There are plenty of dealers out there. If someone is uncomfortable with me inspecting a card for alterations, I just move on.

[Beercan collector]

I don’t like the top border - Too much discoloration and fatness for perfect 90° corners

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by mintacular

No, somehow I think breaking out a ruler at a show would not go over well. Here is the card in question.

Not sure why not? I've done it plenty of times. Never had s dealer object. If one does it would certainly trigger a spidey sense thought...

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

Not sure why not? I've done it plenty of times. Never had s dealer object. If one does it would certainly trigger a spidey sense thought...

Yes... nothing wrong with that!

[perezfan]

In looking at the card, even if unaltered, there is no way it would merit a "5" under PSA and SGC's absurdly tough new standards. 6-8 years ago... perhaps. But not today. With those corners, you'd be lucky to get a "4".

[Lucas00]

Top border looks like its sloping down to the right on the top, with no offset at the bottom border to correct it (make it be physically possible) cut is square based on left and right side. Most definitely trimmed. Sorry.

[mintacular]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

Top border looks like its sloping down to the right on the top, with no offset at the bottom border to correct it (make it be physically possible) cut is square based on left and right side. Most definitely trimmed. Sorry.

I don't see what you see, weird.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

Top border looks like its sloping down to the right on the top, with no offset at the bottom border to correct it (make it be physically possible) cut is square based on left and right side. Most definitely trimmed. Sorry.

The top border looks kinda funky to me also. To me it also looks like someone gave it a not to great bath. Hard to tell from pictures though.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by mintacular

I don't see what you see, weird.

It does seem to be very modest, and maybe it's just because we've all been staring at it forever on a screen that we start seeing things.

But if you compare the height of the top white border on the top left side to the height of the top border on the top right side, it seems like the one on the top left side is slightly bigger. The difference is so minor as to be almost imperceptible.

[Johnny630]

Back Scan Please

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Is that slanty top border really all that minor? It stuck out like a sore thumb to me before anyone shared similar thoughts. Because photos and scans can be deceptive, I just kept quiet, but glad to see that I'm not alone in this.

But yes, a back scan would be interesting to see.

[philliesfan]

Just for additional information, a customer purchased a Bowman card from me and submitted it to SGC.

It came back as NO. We were able to get a reason from SGC as he thought it meant reprint. The reason it came back from SGC is that there was moisture detected with the card and encapsulating it would damage the card over time. So maybe that is another reason it was returned.

Bob

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

Top border looks like its sloping down to the right on the top, with no offset at the bottom border to correct it (make it be physically possible) cut is square based on left and right side. Most definitely trimmed. Sorry.

I thought the same thing. The right top edge just looks off. That said, it is not a bad looking card.

[Vintagedeputy]

The top of that card was most definitely trimmed. No question about it.

[JollyElm]

This is obviously not fully scientific, but I took the scan of the card in question and overlaid it on a scan of a 1959 Mantle that became a PSA 5, and matched the sizing of the two separate cards (based on the picture, logo and text) to ensure it was an apples to apples comparison.

Here's a 55% opacity image of the 'Purple' card on top of my 'White' card, where I lined up the left and bottom borders to gauge the full size of the 'Purple' card:

1959toppsmantle10comp.jpg


The hazy, dark purplish area that juts out at right is more or less an optical illusion. That is actually part of the 'White' card, which would indicate the 'Purple' card (bright white border) is decently short side to side.

Again, not scientific, but hopefully a bit enlightening.

[Exhibitman]

Clearly trimmed, top left, not a particularly deft job of it.

The seller at a show is presenting cards as-is, where-is. It is up to the buyer to inspect and accept the card before walking away with it. It is especially on the buyer to pick up a patent defect, like a trimmed corner or a crease. That has long been the industry standard. I do not know of any dealer at a show who accepts post-show returns or who warrants that a card will pass a TPG service (except in very limited specific instances that the parties agree on before the sale closes).

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by mintacular

Another small detail is that the dealer did say they thought it was a "6"

If the dealer thought it was really a 6, you can bet they would have spent the $15-$20 to grade it. I buy cards in that price range raw -- just without the expectation that they will grade anything other than Authentic or very low numerical grade.

[G1911]

Selling raw is not a license to commit fraud and omit important, relevant information. At the same time, a seller is not any more responsible for something they didn't notice either. It is why raw cards are cheaper, because they have not been placed into the holy slab that is surely correct.

Especially in person, if one examines a card, is happy with it and buys it, and then wants a refund because it didn't get the slab one wanted, that's utterly ridiculous. If one chooses to gamble, they don't get to undo the loss if they don't win. At some point one is responsible for their choices.

If a seller is upset one wants to inspect a card, compare or measure it, run for the hills - they are probably committing fraud. I have never once had a potential seller object to me examining a card, because that would make it transparent there is something wrong.

$700 is about the exact value of an SGC 5 1959 Topps Mantle (one sold just yesterday for $700 exactly). If one wants slabs, paying the slab price for a raw copy that may or may not get the grade (even if unaltered they may wrongly flag it, or give it a different grade rightly or wrongly) makes no sense.

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by mintacular

No, somehow I think breaking out a ruler at a show would not go over well. Here is the card in question.

I have a 4 inch clear ruler, and a lighted magnifier on a lanyard that I carry with me everywhere from card shows to antique stores and I apologize to no one for using it.

[LEHR]

Originally Posted by Smanzari

Grade chasing is one thing, but selling an altered card as non-altered is another. If this is the case, any respectable dealer should offer a refund or an exchange, and if applicable, should be put on blast for selling altered cards

On the flip side of this; maybe the dealer had no idea the card was altered. if I were the dealer and I had some random guy who supposedly bought this 59 Mantle from me at a show a few weeks/months ago come back and say they wanted a refund because SGC said it wouldn't grade I'd probably laugh at them.

1. Some of these guys are doing shows almost every weekend. How do you expect them to remember your singular transaction of buying this Mantle from them. That card could have came from anywhere.
2. Say I as the dealer did remember the transaction; I have no way of knowing what the buyer did to the card or how it was handled before it was sent to SGC or since it was returned.
And 3. Like Adam (Exhibitman) said, if you wanted a graded card you should have bought one. Once you visually inspect and pay for a card at my table you'd own it. I'd personally never sell an altered card unless it was slabbed as such, but I also wouldn't give refunds on raw cards based solely on a third party opinion.

[mintacular]

Here are the back scans. A few things of note.

The dealers are new and have claimed they don't grade cards. Based on my talking to them they did seem inexperienced and it's possible they just don't send cards for grading that often. Most of their cards were raw and they only had a few big cards, 59s including this one.

In hindsight, the price I paid was a reach and I thought it had a shot at a 5.5 hence my risk.

To the folks who would laugh/dismiss at even broaching a return, try to put yourself in my shoes. Again, I would not have asked for a return if the card came back less than expected and I'm not even asking for a full return. Also, I paid near comp for a 5 so it wasn't like the scenario was well under comp with a disclaimer that they aren't sure about the authenticity/ etc. of the card....

[Rhotchkiss]

I think you certainly CAN ask for a return, and I see no reason not to. But I do not think you are entitled to a return, and I would not be surprised if your request was denied. You freely and willingly bought the card under no duress and you had every opportunity to inspect, negotiate, and walk away.

Thought, if he won’t let you return it, maybe he will but it back for a percentage of your cost, so it mitigates your “loss”.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I think you certainly CAN ask for a return, and I see no reason not to. But I do not think you are entitled to a return, and I would not be surprised if your request was denied. You freely and willingly bought the card under no duress and you had every opportunity to inspect, negotiate, and walk away.

Thought, if he won’t let you return it, maybe he will but it back for a percentage of your cost, so it mitigates your “loss”.

Similarly, you could ask for some store credit on the return. It’s a tough call but my view is if they knew it was altered they are in the wrong. If they didn’t know, they didn’t do anything wrong (although they could still be nice and allow a return but I wouldn’t bet on it). What they knew at the time will likely remain a mystery unfortunately.

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by mintacular

To the folks who would laugh/dismiss at even broaching a return, try to put yourself in my shoes. Again, I would not have asked for a return if the card came back less than expected and I'm not even asking for a full return. Also, I paid near comp for a 5 so it wasn't like the scenario was well under comp with a disclaimer that they aren't sure about the authenticity/ etc. of the card....

In the same line of thought, put yourself in the dealers shoes. Not saying you would, but how does the dealer know you didn't trim the card and when you did not get the result you wanted now want to unload it? If every dealer took returns like this the trimmers would have zero risk buying every card they could since they could always get their money back. Also how does the dealer, weeks later, know this is even the exact same card? Once the card leaves the dealers table they have no way to know what the buyer has done with it. Since one of the posters above mentioned bad dealers, it should also be remembered there are also bad buyers. Furthermore, why does the dealer have to trust the opinion of SGC or anyone else for that matter? You're asking the dealer to take a return based on the opinion of someone they may or may not trust, or even care about so why should they be impacted by this third party's opinion?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

If the dealer thought it was really a 6, you can bet they would have spent the $15-$20 to grade it.

That is absolutely not true.

Many of us old school guys would not spend anything to grade any of our cards to sell.

If I have a card that you think might be a 6 (I don't think it's a 6, I think it's a nice looking card that I will sell to you for $x) then after we shake hands and make the exchange, you're on you're own.

I fully 100% agree with Adam, you saw it, held it, felt it, smelled it, whatever, you agreed to a price, and if some schmuck who sells opinions tells you "it's a 2" then it's evidently a 2 and I will offer you congrats on your 2, but you want a refund?

F you.

Doug "middle name is Richard" Goodman

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by mintacular

Here are the back scans. A few things of note.

The dealers are new and have claimed they don't grade cards. Based on my talking to them they did seem inexperienced and it's possible they just don't send cards for grading that often. Most of their cards were raw and they only had a few big cards, 59s including this one.

In hindsight, the price I paid was a reach and I thought it had a shot at a 5.5 hence my risk.

To the folks who would laugh/dismiss at even broaching a return, try to put yourself in my shoes. Again, I would not have asked for a return if the card came back less than expected and I'm not even asking for a full return. Also, I paid near comp for a 5 so it wasn't like the scenario was well under comp with a disclaimer that they aren't sure about the authenticity/ etc. of the card....

I get that it sucks. I actually paid more than double that for a raw card the seller told me he thought it would get a 3 for a grade. Like yours the only grade it would ever get is a A for authentic. I honestly think I was kinda scammed by the seller because he usually has very good pics. The ones he sent me was kinda out of focus and hid the paper loss and recoloring that was obvious in hand once I actually received the card. No guarantee was given or asked for so I took it as a semi expensive learning experience.

Saying that there is NO chance in hell I would ask for a refund or give one if I was the seller. The only exception was if there was an agreement from a regular customer/friend that a certain level of grade was guaranteed.

[Smanzari]

I'm so confused by the response here, I understand if OP purchased it expecting a "5" and got a "2," but this feels like they bought an altered card thinking it was unaltered. Makes me a little uneasy as I frequently buy raw cards in the BST Here. FWIW, I am a dealer and without question would offer a return/refund in this situation.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Smanzari

I'm so confused by the response here, I understand if OP purchased it expecting a "5" and got a "2," but this feels like they bought an altered card thinking it was unaltered. Makes me a little uneasy as I frequently buy raw cards in the BST Here. FWIW, I am a dealer and without question would offer a return/refund in this situation.

Nice, can you post a link to your eBay page or any other online place you sell cards?

[Smanzari]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Nice, can you post a link to your eBay page or any other online place you sell cards?

Smvintage13.com

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

And how is the seller supposed to know that the card in question wasn't altered after it left his possession, or is even the same card? We guarantee everything we sell to get a number grade (unless stated otherwise in the listing) but to take advantage of the guarantee it has to be submitted by us. Once it leaves our possession (to the buyer) it's bought.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Smanzari

I'm so confused by the response here, I understand if OP purchased it expecting a "5" and got a "2," but this feels like they bought an altered card thinking it was unaltered. Makes me a little uneasy as I frequently buy raw cards in the BST Here. FWIW, I am a dealer and without question would offer a return/refund in this situation.

Very admirable. Wish there were more like you, and will check out your site for sure.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

That is absolutely not true.

Many of us old school guys would not spend anything to grade any of our cards to sell.

If I have a card that you think might be a 6 (I don't think it's a 6, I think it's a nice looking card that I will sell to you for $x) then after we shake hands and make the exchange, you're on you're own.

I fully 100% agree with Adam, you saw it, held it, felt it, smelled it, whatever, you agreed to a price, and if some schmuck who sells opinions tells you "it's a 2" then it's evidently a 2 and I will offer you congrats on your 2, but you want a refund?

F you.

Doug "middle name is Richard" Goodman

I like your style...

[jsfriedm]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

If I have a card that you think might be a 6 (I don't think it's a 6, I think it's a nice looking card that I will sell to you for $x) then after we shake hands and make the exchange, you're on you're own.

How did you arrive at the $x you will sell it for? Was it based on the prices of graded cards?

[ZenPop]

I don’t think you all are considering that “NO” actually means:
“No problem. I think it WILL grade at a 6, but maybe even a 7. Good job!”

I’m just saying...

[ZenPop]

I’d like to apologize for the previous post.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by ZenPop

I’d like to apologize for the previous post.

It was a valiant attempt at a joke. I like where your head is at!