Buying a Raw 1959 Topps Mickey Mantle, SGC "NO", & Dealer Responsibility

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by mintacular

Another small detail is that the dealer did say they thought it was a "6"

If the dealer thought it was really a 6, you can bet they would have spent the $15-$20 to grade it. I buy cards in that price range raw -- just without the expectation that they will grade anything other than Authentic or very low numerical grade.

[G1911]

Selling raw is not a license to commit fraud and omit important, relevant information. At the same time, a seller is not any more responsible for something they didn't notice either. It is why raw cards are cheaper, because they have not been placed into the holy slab that is surely correct.

Especially in person, if one examines a card, is happy with it and buys it, and then wants a refund because it didn't get the slab one wanted, that's utterly ridiculous. If one chooses to gamble, they don't get to undo the loss if they don't win. At some point one is responsible for their choices.

If a seller is upset one wants to inspect a card, compare or measure it, run for the hills - they are probably committing fraud. I have never once had a potential seller object to me examining a card, because that would make it transparent there is something wrong.

$700 is about the exact value of an SGC 5 1959 Topps Mantle (one sold just yesterday for $700 exactly). If one wants slabs, paying the slab price for a raw copy that may or may not get the grade (even if unaltered they may wrongly flag it, or give it a different grade rightly or wrongly) makes no sense.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

If the dealer thought it was really a 6, you can bet they would have spent the $15-$20 to grade it.

That is absolutely not true.

Many of us old school guys would not spend anything to grade any of our cards to sell.

If I have a card that you think might be a 6 (I don't think it's a 6, I think it's a nice looking card that I will sell to you for $x) then after we shake hands and make the exchange, you're on you're own.

I fully 100% agree with Adam, you saw it, held it, felt it, smelled it, whatever, you agreed to a price, and if some schmuck who sells opinions tells you "it's a 2" then it's evidently a 2 and I will offer you congrats on your 2, but you want a refund?

F you.

Doug "middle name is Richard" Goodman

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

That is absolutely not true.

Many of us old school guys would not spend anything to grade any of our cards to sell.

If I have a card that you think might be a 6 (I don't think it's a 6, I think it's a nice looking card that I will sell to you for $x) then after we shake hands and make the exchange, you're on you're own.

I fully 100% agree with Adam, you saw it, held it, felt it, smelled it, whatever, you agreed to a price, and if some schmuck who sells opinions tells you "it's a 2" then it's evidently a 2 and I will offer you congrats on your 2, but you want a refund?

F you.

Doug "middle name is Richard" Goodman

I like your style...

[jsfriedm]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

If I have a card that you think might be a 6 (I don't think it's a 6, I think it's a nice looking card that I will sell to you for $x) then after we shake hands and make the exchange, you're on you're own.

How did you arrive at the $x you will sell it for? Was it based on the prices of graded cards?

[ZenPop]

I don’t think you all are considering that “NO” actually means:
“No problem. I think it WILL grade at a 6, but maybe even a 7. Good job!”

I’m just saying...

[ZenPop]

I’d like to apologize for the previous post.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by ZenPop

I’d like to apologize for the previous post.

It was a valiant attempt at a joke. I like where your head is at!

[Huck]

This is for the sellers/dealers on the board. If you knew, had a feeling, an inkling that the card was trimmed/modified in some fashion, would you reveal that information and price the card accordingly or just ignore the hunch and caveat emptor?

The argument that a dealer can't/doesn't look at every card borders on complete and utter kaka because before a dealer purchases a collection of cards and money exchanges hands the '59 Mantle is going to have a lookie-look. Based on a scan alone Exhibitman stated "clearly trimmed, top left, not a particularly deft job of it."

I agree that if you wanted a 5, you should have purchased a graded card. Best case, would be the dealer issues a credit and you purchase a card of higher value. Preferably, graded.....

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

How did you arrive at the $x you will sell it for? Was it based on the prices of graded cards?

Maybe I think it looked of similar quality to what those of you who like to buy opinions would call a 6.

If that's the case, then it seems that I had a similar opinion of the card to that of the buyer.

Too bad a seller of opinions sold the buyer a different opinion.

But that has nothing to do with me.

[glchen]

My concerns here is that I remember a seller on ebay a few years back where basically he made his business to crack out nice looking Authentic cards and then sell them raw on ebay. I hope that in this case the dealer did not do the same thing and crack out a card that he knew was altered.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by glchen

My concerns here is that I remember a seller on ebay a few years back where basically he made his business to crack out nice looking Authentic cards and then sell them raw on ebay. I hope that in this case the dealer did not do the same thing and crack out a card that he knew was altered.

There are collectors who prefer raw cards but graded cards levels the playing field. In the raw world the price and grade is set by the dealer. Each of us grades differently. In the graded world, the TPG sets the grade and the market/comps sets the price range. I want to believe that an astute dealer adjusts the price of a card accordingly (well not on Ebay).

Years, ago I was at a show and asked a major dealer why the price of a PSA 7 card I wanted to purchase was carrying almost an 8 premium. The major dealer stated "if the card was broken out it would now grade a 7.5". I nodded and moved on and have never purchased a card from that dealer.

[Johnny630]

Grading has total control of this industry...love it or hate it...it can do three things, make people money, lose people money, and drive them to insanity.

It's something to watch. Eve if you don't grade it effects you in one way or another. It's tentacles have long reach.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by glchen

My concerns here is that I remember a seller on ebay a few years back where basically he made his business to crack out nice looking Authentic cards and then sell them raw on ebay. I hope that in this case the dealer did not do the same thing and crack out a card that he knew was altered.

There are more than several who do this. ebay or not. I know an old timer who buys and sells at shows and he finally shared his secret that he cracks out slabs and then prices at Beckett high,,, He does discount though...