David Hall auctioning his t206 master collection

[chriskim]

Now that David Hall is auctioning his t206 master collection, does it mean t206 rare backs market will go downhill? The market will no longer has a big shark willing to pay insane prices for rare backs.

[bbsports]

David Hall's cards are already priced in. If a new find was discovered, that would lower the prices on rare backs. This is not the case. In fact, because of the supply and demand, it may even raise the price of rare backs. Nobody has the rare backs that Dave Hall has.

[bigfish]

The t206 set and so popular and the quantity of tougher backs seems to be short of the demand. I see them to continue to increase despite Hall's influx of cards into the market.

[edhans]

[QUOTE=bigfish; I see them to continue to increase despite Hall's influx of cards into the market.[/QUOTE]

I don't know, Toby. That's a hell of a lot of rare backs to be absorbed. Sixty something Drums (I'm going by memory, so that may be off). I'm sure lots of collectors will want one or two for their type set, but unless someone else, or two someones, really, is attempting what David was, I just don't see that many being absorbed without some softening of the prices.

[ullmandds]

I have no doubt Halls' cards will be "absorbed" but I do question the prices some of these cards will command.

Last 5-10 years or so...as long as I've been aware of Hall's attempt at the monster I can't tell you how many friends/collectors I know for a fact put cards up for sale they knew that hall needed. I'm sure lots of shilling and driving up prices of some/many of these cards did occur with the mindset that Hall is loaded and he will pay.

While there are no doubt many deep pocketed collectors out there I still think some of halls' cards will sell for less than he paid...not to mention the ones that will be outed as altered.

[Ronnie73]

Me being a collector of the same set that David is selling, I can say that there won't be much of a flood in the market since technically it's only one card of each being sold. I know there has to be more than me collecting the set. As far as what they will sell for, I don't think David will lose money overall on the sale. The big question is, how many of us have the money currently to spend on these cards. I currently don't, but I will be waiting for 2 cards to bid on.

[oldjudge]

Unless new demand has entered the market, prices will go down. His prices were were one increment over an underbidder. If no new aggressive bidder enters the market these prices will effectively be one increment over the second underbidder (assuming all prior bidders are still bidding). This by definition is a lower, possibly a lot lower, price.

[Gradedcardman]

My guess is this will be a two year project. He’s a smart man and certainly has a feeling for what the market will bear.

[MVSNYC]

Shouldn't affect the market too much. There's PLENTY of other big sharks bidding crazy amounts on T206 rare backs (some of them are known here, others keep a lower profile...but they are there). His cards will get gobbled up/absorbed, and the market and craze will keep rolling on. Supply & demand. Yes, the supply will get a decent bump, but there's still thousands of T206 collectors out there. Huge demand.

[Leon]

I agree. These will be absorbed easily. I also don't see any glut or depressed pricing because of it. There is 0 doubt he will make money on some and lose on others. In the end, I will guess he is a little ahead (financially) on the sale. Just a guess. It's fun to watch.

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Shouldn't affect the market too much. There's PLENTY of other big sharks bidding crazy amounts on T206 rare backs (some of them are known here, others keep a lower profile...but they are there). His cards will get gobbled up/absorbed, and the market and craze will keep rolling on. Supply & demand. Yes, the supply will get a decent bump, but there's still thousands of T206 collectors out there. Huge demand.

[Rhotchkiss]

It’s a real good question. I generally agree with Michael that everything will get absorbed, often at record prices. However, I do fear that the pure volume/supply of commons with rare backs, could hurt the value of commons with rare backs. There are very few Cobb Lenox or Baker red hindu, but to most of us, a common player is a common player, and we really don’t care who is on the front; rather it’s the back we are after. So maybe the value/cost of common Drums, Uzits, Lenox, BL, CB go down for a spell do to availability (much supply).

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

It’s a real good question. I generally agree with Michael that everything will get absorbed, often at record prices. However, I do fear that the pure volume/supply of commons with rare backs, could hurt the value of commons with rare backs. There are very few Cobb Lenox or Baker red hindu, but to most of us, a common player is a common player, and we really don’t care who is on the front; rather it’s the back we are after. So maybe the value/cost of common Drums, Uzits, Lenox, BL, CB go down for a spell do to availability (much supply).

Ryan, what you say re the prices of Hall's quantity of T206 commons with rare backs makes sense, on the one hand. On the other hand, if a couple of T206 collectors who currently have say 2-3 Lenox cards in their collections decide this may be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to obtain a slew of Lenox cards, then I can see the Lenox commons selling for surprisingly high prices. Ditto for Drums, Uzits, BLs, CBs, etc.

[atx840]

I dont see it affecting the market too much....there are several cards that likely wont come close to what he spent on

Red Hindy DANNY MURPHY (BATTING) G PSA 2
31k
http://catalog.scpauctions.com/lot-20959.aspx

[petecld]

This deal has been months, if not years in the making. Some information on the David Hall Collection of T206s. There will be three auctions in 2019 with his cards. Auction 50015 which is July 18-20 will be the first. Session Two (Lots 81736 – 81923) will end on July 19 are dedicated to Mr. Hall's cards. In September and December there will be dedicated auctions for his collection. All three will have a dedicated catalog. All three covers will form one panoramic-style scene as will the back covers.

The focus of first offering is rarity. Many rare brands including Carolina Brights, Broad Leaf, Drum, Hindu-Brown, Hindu-Red and Uzit. The Ty Cobb portraits include an Old Mill (Red Portrait), Lenox-Black (Red Portrait), Hindu-Red (Red Portrait) and Old Mill (Green Portrait). A few other highlights - Walter Johnson-Broad Leaf, Mathewson/Portrait-Hindu Brown, Mathewson/White Cap-Hindu Brown and Mathewson/Dark Cap-Tolstoi. I think you get the idea.

The focus of the September auction will be quality. There will be a complete set, including Honus Wagner and what has to be the most incredible Ty Cobb Tobacco tin!

The focus of the December auction will be "Sovereign Cigarettes." I believe he has one of the most complete sets of "Sovereign" backs known.

And yes, there will be more coming in 2020 and I will post updates as plans and schedules become finalized.

Good Luck and Thank You to Everyone Who Participates,

Peter

[Sean]

Originally Posted by atx840

I dont see it affecting the market too much....there are several cards that likely wont come close to what he spent on

Red Hindy DANNY MURPHY (BATTING) G PSA 2
31k
http://catalog.scpauctions.com/lot-20959.aspx

This is the one that I thought of as well. It took two bidders to reach that level. With Hall out, it will go for less than 1/10th that much.

[swarmee]

It will at least provide an interesting case study. There are a lot of player back run collectors that may have a rare chance to complete their "sets" that should keep some bidding up for commons.

[CMIZ5290]

They will all bring a ton of money. I sold David many cards and believe me, he knows his shit! Just saying....Keep in mind, it takes 2 bidders to tango.....People talk about the prices he paid, well Hell, who was the other bidder?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

They will all bring a ton of money. I sold David many cards and believe me, he knows his shit! Just saying....Keep in mind, it takes 2 bidders to tango.....People talk about the prices he paid, well Hell, who was the other bidder?

In that scenario since the main bidder is gone the 3rd bidder is who will have to push the price now. Unless there is new rare back collectors.

I am not a T206 collector, are the rare backs still hot?

[CMIZ5290]

Ben, I'm not saying that the rare backs will get to where they were several years ago. David Hall pushed that bar big time, BIG time. I do think there is still a big market for rare backs, not one of my favorite collecting choices, but it is what it is. I would rather buy an 8 with a common back versus a 3 with a rare back any day, just me though...

[Leon]

I am sure he got a lot, or most, of his cards at auction BUT I am also sure collectors knew what he collected and chased him down for private sales. (and vice versa)

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

They will all bring a ton of money. I sold David many cards and believe me, he knows his shit! Just saying....Keep in mind, it takes 2 bidders to tango.....People talk about the prices he paid, well Hell, who was the other bidder?

[Rich Falvo]

I’m curious just to see what he had. There are cards I’d love to have for my collection -commons but with scare or rare backs - that I’ve never seen for auction/sale.

[tibor1]

oops

[RedsFan1941]

public service announcement or paid advertisement?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

public service announcement or paid advertisement?

seems like a mixture

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tibor1

This is a once in a life time opportunity to acquire some rare
cards. Bid on cards for your collection. Don't let " shoulda, coulda"
be your motto years from now.

Please put your full name next to your post.

[forceplay sport]

pardon my ignorance, I dont know David Hall ........

[swarmee]

https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/awardshalloffame
Scroll down a little bit.

Added: For collectors that like provenance of having cards owned by famous collectors, an example would be a nice thing to add to your collection. If I wasn't boycotting at this point, I would probably win one of the cheaper ones.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by forceplay sport

pardon my ignorance, I dont know David Hall ........

wasn't he 1/2 of hall and oates?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

wasn't he 1/2 of hall and oates?

Yeah, he was Oates.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/awardshalloffame
Scroll down a little bit.

Added: For collectors that like provenance of having cards owned by famous collectors, an example would be a nice thing to add to your collection. If I wasn't boycotting at this point, I would probably win one of the cheaper ones.

I agree having at least one would be nice but was curious about your boycotting. Heritage is doing the auctions and nearly all of David's cards were graded before all this card doctoring. I personally believe that purchasing any of his cards now would be just like if we were purchasing them two years ago in regards to the grading. Also, David never bothered to reholder his collection to add any provenance on the holders, so the only way to tell if a card was one of David's would be to cross reference the PSA number and the auction catalog.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

I agree having at least one would be nice but was curious about your boycotting. Heritage is doing the auctions and nearly all of David's cards were graded before all this card doctoring. I personally believe that purchasing any of his cards now would be just like if we were purchasing them two years ago in regards to the grading. Also, David never bothered to reholder his collection to add any provenance on the holders, so the only way to tell if a card was one of David's would be to cross reference the PSA number and the auction catalog.

Right. The owner of PSA had his cards graded by his own company. What could possibly go wrong with that?

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Right. The owner of PSA had his cards graded by his own company. What could possibly go wrong with that?

I totally understand what your saying but all cards that David bought that were in PSA holders were never resubmitted for upgrade. Many of the SGC cards that he crossed over to PSA actually were down graded. I'm not sure how many cards he bought raw. In my opinion, if all this current doctoring/trimming scandal didn't happen, there would be nearly no issues with the sale. I'd also like to say that with over 5000 T206's, I'm sure PSA got a few wrong and advise everyone to buy the card and not the holder.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by tibor1

This is a once in a life time opportunity to acquire some rare
cards. Bid on cards for your collection. Don't let " shoulda, coulda"
be your motto years from now.

This is the kind of irrational emotion that lets card manipulators thrive. You're a prime target for them.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

I agree having at least one would be nice but was curious about your boycotting. Heritage is doing the auctions and nearly all of David's cards were graded before all this card doctoring.

Propping up the resale value of cards in their slabs is something I'm not going to do at this point. I am not throwing shade on this collection, but if they were altered, it's kind of been shown that PSA likely didn't catch it. And their current leadership isn't doing enough *in broad daylight* to make me feel good about purchasing their cards for my own collection.

Even if it was a graded card of Lionel Carter or Jefferson Burdick currently residing in a PSA, SGC, or BGS holder, I wouldn't purchase it right now. I want to hold the Third Party Graders to a higher standard than they seem to hold themselves to.

[Gradedcardman]

All I have here is wow. Ron is correct. I would venture to say that any card David bought graded PSA stayed PSA. Would the naysayers also believe that he was altering coins along the way ? Can we get back to collecting and move on ? If this "scandal" takes the fun out of it for you then sell your stuff and buy some vintage cars or Guitars or Art...There's never any altering with those collectibles.

[Rhotchkiss]

I think all of you should stay away from Hall's collection and nobody should bid. Its way too dangerous.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

I agree having at least one would be nice but was curious about your boycotting. Heritage is doing the auctions and nearly all of David's cards were graded before all this card doctoring. I personally believe that purchasing any of his cards now would be just like if we were purchasing them two years ago in regards to the grading. Also, David never bothered to reholder his collection to add any provenance on the holders, so the only way to tell if a card was one of David's would be to cross reference the PSA number and the auction catalog.

Card doctoring has been rampant for decades. I don't know what you mean by "before all this card doctoring." The Harris Collection was what, 1990s?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Right. The owner of PSA had his cards graded by his own company. What could possibly go wrong with that?

No conflict of interest there.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Card doctoring has been rampant for decades. I don't know what you mean by "before all this card doctoring." The Harris Collection was what, 1990s?

ya...and there's the gretzky wagner. Out of 5000 T206's there is no doubt altered cards in there. But a unique opportunity for sure!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

ya...and there's the gretzky wagner. Out of 5000 T206's there is no doubt altered cards in there. But a unique opportunity for sure!

Some people seem to have a distinct misimpression that because it's much easier to trace newer sales through high quality scans and the majority of outed cards thus have been in newer holders, that somehow that means rampant card doctoring is a recent phenomenon. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[ullmandds]

Ignorance is bliss, Pete!

I wish I could feign ignorance!

Additionally there are a few cards I want so bad I wouldn't care if they were altered.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Card doctoring has been rampant for decades. I don't know what you mean by "before all this card doctoring." The Harris Collection was what, 1990s?

I meant before this Moser/PWCC scandal jumped off. I know there have been issues with cards before that but nothing to this current level of impact. Maybe social media is driving the topic further than it normally would be. When the whole T206 Wagner thing happened, nearly anyone was worried about buying PSA graded cards or having altered cards in their personal collection. My main opinion was that David's collection has the same risk that other cards had, before the Moser scandal happened.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

I meant before this Moser/PWCC scandal jumped off. I know there have been issues with cards before that but nothing to this current level of impact. Maybe social media is driving the topic further than it normally would be. When the whole T206 Wagner thing happened, nearly anyone was worried about buying PSA graded cards or having altered cards in their personal collection. My main opinion was that David's collection has the same risk that other cards had, before the Moser scandal happened.

Again, in my opinion, the current level of impact is only due to message board and now media publicity. The same problem, in the same percentage, applies to cards graded since day one. And it's a major problem. High grade T206s in particular, see the Harris Collection and so on.

Plus, you have the added fact here that PSA graded its owner's cards. There is certainly a potential conflict.

Maybe they're all fine. But there is certainly reason for caution, IMO.

[darwinbulldog]

What percentage of all PSA (numerically) graded T206s do you think are altered in some way that should have disqualified them from a numerical grade? 0.1? 1? 10? 50?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

What percentage of all PSA (numerically) graded T206s do you think are altered in some way that should have disqualified them from a numerical grade? 0.1? 1? 10? 50?

Applying PSA published standards literally, such that pressing out a corner or surface wrinkle, or any erasure, would count as an alteration?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Applying PSA published standards literally, such that pressing out a corner or surface wrinkle, or any erasure, would count as an alteration?

Let's say it's acceptable if you just use your fingers but if you use any other equipment or any chemicals other than air and water it's no good.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Let's say it's acceptable if you just use your fingers but if you use any other equipment or any chemicals other than air and water it's no good.

I am only speculating. But I would guess
1-3 5-10 percent
4-7 20-40 percent
8 and up 50 percent or higher

[JohnP0621]

A lot of the PSA graded cards that Hall purchased were thru auctions and EBay etc. He really pushed the market value up on the rare backs . These cards were already graded by PSA and not submitted by him and I believe most if not all remain in the same PSA holder with the original grade for his purchases.
I am a low to mid grade pre war collector with mostly cards graded PSA / SGC 3-5 so I'm not that concerned with buying graded cards for my collection.
It really Sucks for High End collectors but this crap has been going on for.a Very very long time . Where there is $$$ to be made there will always be Greedy people looking to take advantage.
Really puts a black cloud over the hobby but I love collecting and will continue buying at a slower pace.
John P

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Gradedcardman

All I have here is wow. Ron is correct. I would venture to say that any card David bought graded PSA stayed PSA. Would the naysayers also believe that he was altering coins along the way ? Can we get back to collecting and move on ? If this "scandal" takes the fun out of it for you then sell your stuff and buy some vintage cars or Guitars or Art...There's never any altering with those collectibles.

Thanks Adam...Spot on....People, move on will you? All of this shit is ridiculous and it has consumed this forum for 6 freaking months! By the way, David is laughing his ass off.....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yeah, if only it wasn't real.