David Hall auctioning his t206 master collection

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/awardshalloffame
Scroll down a little bit.

Added: For collectors that like provenance of having cards owned by famous collectors, an example would be a nice thing to add to your collection. If I wasn't boycotting at this point, I would probably win one of the cheaper ones.

I agree having at least one would be nice but was curious about your boycotting. Heritage is doing the auctions and nearly all of David's cards were graded before all this card doctoring. I personally believe that purchasing any of his cards now would be just like if we were purchasing them two years ago in regards to the grading. Also, David never bothered to reholder his collection to add any provenance on the holders, so the only way to tell if a card was one of David's would be to cross reference the PSA number and the auction catalog.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

I agree having at least one would be nice but was curious about your boycotting. Heritage is doing the auctions and nearly all of David's cards were graded before all this card doctoring. I personally believe that purchasing any of his cards now would be just like if we were purchasing them two years ago in regards to the grading. Also, David never bothered to reholder his collection to add any provenance on the holders, so the only way to tell if a card was one of David's would be to cross reference the PSA number and the auction catalog.

Right. The owner of PSA had his cards graded by his own company. What could possibly go wrong with that?

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Right. The owner of PSA had his cards graded by his own company. What could possibly go wrong with that?

I totally understand what your saying but all cards that David bought that were in PSA holders were never resubmitted for upgrade. Many of the SGC cards that he crossed over to PSA actually were down graded. I'm not sure how many cards he bought raw. In my opinion, if all this current doctoring/trimming scandal didn't happen, there would be nearly no issues with the sale. I'd also like to say that with over 5000 T206's, I'm sure PSA got a few wrong and advise everyone to buy the card and not the holder.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Right. The owner of PSA had his cards graded by his own company. What could possibly go wrong with that?

No conflict of interest there.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

I agree having at least one would be nice but was curious about your boycotting. Heritage is doing the auctions and nearly all of David's cards were graded before all this card doctoring.

Propping up the resale value of cards in their slabs is something I'm not going to do at this point. I am not throwing shade on this collection, but if they were altered, it's kind of been shown that PSA likely didn't catch it. And their current leadership isn't doing enough *in broad daylight* to make me feel good about purchasing their cards for my own collection.

Even if it was a graded card of Lionel Carter or Jefferson Burdick currently residing in a PSA, SGC, or BGS holder, I wouldn't purchase it right now. I want to hold the Third Party Graders to a higher standard than they seem to hold themselves to.

[Gradedcardman]

All I have here is wow. Ron is correct. I would venture to say that any card David bought graded PSA stayed PSA. Would the naysayers also believe that he was altering coins along the way ? Can we get back to collecting and move on ? If this "scandal" takes the fun out of it for you then sell your stuff and buy some vintage cars or Guitars or Art...There's never any altering with those collectibles.

[Rhotchkiss]

I think all of you should stay away from Hall's collection and nobody should bid. Its way too dangerous.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Gradedcardman

All I have here is wow. Ron is correct. I would venture to say that any card David bought graded PSA stayed PSA. Would the naysayers also believe that he was altering coins along the way ? Can we get back to collecting and move on ? If this "scandal" takes the fun out of it for you then sell your stuff and buy some vintage cars or Guitars or Art...There's never any altering with those collectibles.

Thanks Adam...Spot on....People, move on will you? All of this shit is ridiculous and it has consumed this forum for 6 freaking months! By the way, David is laughing his ass off.....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yeah, if only it wasn't real.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah, if only it wasn't real.

So what exactly is the argument against Hall? PSA? Is he a conspirator for Brent Huigens? Where does this nonsense end? I sold David Hall several cards that were SGC graded....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

So what exactly is the argument against Hall? PSA? Is he a conspirator for Brent Huigens? Where does this nonsense end? I sold David Hall several cards that were SGC graded....

I didn't say anything specifically against Hall other than pointing out that if he had his graders grade his own cards, that's a note of caution. More generally, I believe lots of high grade T206s are altered. Nothing to do with Brent Huigens. The problem with altered cards goes much deeper than him.

As for PSA, I wouldn't even know where to begin at this point. I'll spare you. Read.

[steve B]

How much time do you need to unload altered high grade cards before we can get back to it?

The amount of denial and deflection is frankly more bothersome than the altering and fraud..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

How much time do you need to unload altered high grade cards before we can get back to it?

The amount of denial and deflection is frankly more bothersome than the altering and fraud..

The Kool Aid tastes just as good as ever, Steve.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Thanks Adam...Spot on....People, move on will you? All of this shit is ridiculous and it has consumed this forum for 6 freaking months! By the way, David is laughing his ass off.....

LOL. Not going to move on until some people are in jail and PSA and Beckett confess to their inability to detect alterations. We are still very early in this story.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

I agree having at least one would be nice but was curious about your boycotting. Heritage is doing the auctions and nearly all of David's cards were graded before all this card doctoring. I personally believe that purchasing any of his cards now would be just like if we were purchasing them two years ago in regards to the grading. Also, David never bothered to reholder his collection to add any provenance on the holders, so the only way to tell if a card was one of David's would be to cross reference the PSA number and the auction catalog.

Card doctoring has been rampant for decades. I don't know what you mean by "before all this card doctoring." The Harris Collection was what, 1990s?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Card doctoring has been rampant for decades. I don't know what you mean by "before all this card doctoring." The Harris Collection was what, 1990s?

ya...and there's the gretzky wagner. Out of 5000 T206's there is no doubt altered cards in there. But a unique opportunity for sure!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

ya...and there's the gretzky wagner. Out of 5000 T206's there is no doubt altered cards in there. But a unique opportunity for sure!

Some people seem to have a distinct misimpression that because it's much easier to trace newer sales through high quality scans and the majority of outed cards thus have been in newer holders, that somehow that means rampant card doctoring is a recent phenomenon. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[ullmandds]

Ignorance is bliss, Pete!

I wish I could feign ignorance!

Additionally there are a few cards I want so bad I wouldn't care if they were altered.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Card doctoring has been rampant for decades. I don't know what you mean by "before all this card doctoring." The Harris Collection was what, 1990s?

I meant before this Moser/PWCC scandal jumped off. I know there have been issues with cards before that but nothing to this current level of impact. Maybe social media is driving the topic further than it normally would be. When the whole T206 Wagner thing happened, nearly anyone was worried about buying PSA graded cards or having altered cards in their personal collection. My main opinion was that David's collection has the same risk that other cards had, before the Moser scandal happened.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

I meant before this Moser/PWCC scandal jumped off. I know there have been issues with cards before that but nothing to this current level of impact. Maybe social media is driving the topic further than it normally would be. When the whole T206 Wagner thing happened, nearly anyone was worried about buying PSA graded cards or having altered cards in their personal collection. My main opinion was that David's collection has the same risk that other cards had, before the Moser scandal happened.

Again, in my opinion, the current level of impact is only due to message board and now media publicity. The same problem, in the same percentage, applies to cards graded since day one. And it's a major problem. High grade T206s in particular, see the Harris Collection and so on.

Plus, you have the added fact here that PSA graded its owner's cards. There is certainly a potential conflict.

Maybe they're all fine. But there is certainly reason for caution, IMO.

[darwinbulldog]

What percentage of all PSA (numerically) graded T206s do you think are altered in some way that should have disqualified them from a numerical grade? 0.1? 1? 10? 50?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

What percentage of all PSA (numerically) graded T206s do you think are altered in some way that should have disqualified them from a numerical grade? 0.1? 1? 10? 50?

Applying PSA published standards literally, such that pressing out a corner or surface wrinkle, or any erasure, would count as an alteration?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Applying PSA published standards literally, such that pressing out a corner or surface wrinkle, or any erasure, would count as an alteration?

Let's say it's acceptable if you just use your fingers but if you use any other equipment or any chemicals other than air and water it's no good.