OMG Blowout list of suspected trimmed modern cards

[Johnny630]

How can either company remain trusted ?? If PSA fails to take responsibility admits their wrong, and pays back full value for their bad cards I will never trust them again.
I’m sure they will do nothing, very sad and par for the course in this industry. Hope PSA proves me wrong....not holding breath.

[jad22]

Wow. That’s a lot of submissions.

[drcy]

The longer the lists the better. Some self-deluding dolts, such as on the CU board, won't open their eyes unless they're hit over the head with a sledgehammer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jad22

Wow. That’s a lot of submissions.

From what I am told, many more are in progress.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by drcy

The longer the lists the better. Some self-delusioning dolts, such as on the CU board, won't open their eyes unless they're hit over the head with a sledgehammer.

Agree the Kool Aid hasn’t stopped being consumed yet.....sheeple with Registry Cards...

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Shame on PSA and BGS for allowing fraudsters the means to commit such massive levels of fraud, while clearly giving them preferential grades on top of it. Not only are they grading altered cards, they are OVER-grading altered cards and giving preferential treatment to the people submitting them. Unreal. The grading game is dead to me, because absolutely no graded card from either of these shit companies can be trusted to be unaltered and graded properly and fairly.

While I agree with PSA cards I don't with Beckett. I have 2 of the 12 cards they graded in testing before they ever graded a card for the public. Since they are just practice cards i believe there was no foul play involved with them.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bnorth

While I agree with PSA cards I don't with Beckett. I have 2 of the 12 cards they graded in testing before they ever graded a card for the public. Since they are just practice cards i believe there was no foul play involved with them.

Interesting how they went from 4 digit numbers to three digit.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve B

Interesting how they went from 4 digit numbers to three digit.

I have never seen any of the other 10 so I don't know how they got #ed but i do like how they did #007.

[Johnny630]

Is there a list of the worst card doctors or people in the hobby other then hauls of shame?

[drcy]

I once had a tour of the Beckett facility in Dallas. Sitting on the floor in a hallway was an open box of unused holders. I said "I could steal those and grade my own," and the Director of Grading joked "Don't bother. They are BCCG holders."

[soxinseven]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I can only assume 312 is working up a list for one or more other guys identified as modern trimmers.

If modern dwarfs vintage it will be because the other vintage guys haven't left the same tracks and the history goes too far back.

I think modern will always dwarf vintage in the fraud department due to sheer volume produced and the demand for current players. Maybe percentage wise it could be close but when the total numbers shake out I feel like you will see more altered modern cards than vintage.

[Exhibitman]

So basically we all need to look at our own cards and learn to judge condition and authenticity?!?!?! F***!

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

So basically we all need to look at our own cards and learn to judge condition and authenticity?!?!?! F***!

Remember the SNL skit where the tv news set teleprompters went out and by the end of the half-hour news show the newscasters were living as cannibal savages?

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Is there a list of the worst card doctors or people in the hobby other then hauls of shame?

Sports Card Radio has a running list.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Sports Card Radio has a running list.

Very geared towards modern though.

[Directly]

Curious Beckett authentic--Is it possible this Griffey auto may have been added recently to this card and is it authentic, now listed as a auction on Ebay-- its appears signed with a bold sharpie quite different than all other examples I have seen on these dual signed card?

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Directly

Curious Beckett authentic--Is it possible this Griffey auto may have been added recently to this card and is it authentic, now listed as a auction on Ebay-- its appears signed with a bold sharpie quite different than all other examples I have seen on these dual signed card?

I believe all the cards were signed by Griffey, and just a percentage by Mantle, so the only possible forgeries are the Mantle.

[ATP]

Originally Posted by Directly

Curious Beckett authentic--Is it possible this Griffey auto may have been added recently to this card and is it authentic, now listed as a auction on Ebay-- its appears signed with a bold sharpie quite different than all other examples I have seen on these dual signed card?

That looks like Junior's signature, but not from 1994. His signature style was much different then, longer and more flowing and lighter hand. This is his smaller more current signature style. They did produce that card with just Mantle's signature and not Griffey so it's almost certain that this is the case, with the Griffey added probably just this year when he did the mail in private signing.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Directly

Curious Beckett authentic--Is it possible this Griffey auto may have been added recently to this card and is it authentic, now listed as a auction on Ebay-- its appears signed with a bold sharpie quite different than all other examples I have seen on these dual signed card?

I've always wanted that card. Those are my two favorite players to collect. Any idea how that effects the value if Griffey did sign 10 or 20 years later?

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by drcy

The longer the lists the better. Some self-deluding dolts, such as on the CU board, won't open their eyes unless they're hit over the head with a sledgehammer.

I was one of the first members on that message board. A couple years ago I posted a questionable Gretzky PSA/DNA card. They not only banned me, but the mod at the time (Jackie) called my cell phone at 9/10ish EST and laid me out for the post.

I visited the site today to see how the fraud is being handled and it looks like the new mod is actually editing user's posts by changing or removing things said. That's a first for me on any forum.

The reason the members there will "not open their eyes unless they're hit over the head with a sledgehammer" is because they don't want to lose posting privileges. For most of the regular posters there, that forum is their life and they cannot function without it.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

I was one of the first members on that message board. A couple years ago I posted a questionable Gretzky PSA/DNA card. They not only banned me, but the mod at the time (Jackie) called my cell phone at 9/10ish EST and laid me out for the post.

I visited the site today to see how the fraud is being handled and it looks like the new mod is actually editing user's posts by changing or removing things said. That's a first for me on any forum.

The reason the members there will "not open their eyes unless they're hit over the head with a sledgehammer" is because they don't want to lose posting privileges. For most of the regular posters there, that forum is their life and they cannot function without it.

I understand that, and also understand/appreciate that it's a company website. No company is going to allow slamming of their product on their own site. That's why Beckett deleted their chatboard some years back.

[Bcwcardz]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A Beckett 9.5 is already GEM mint. What on earth is a 10 then?

Why stop at 10 when you can have...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rhettyeakley]

Crazy how many Gem Mint cards were being graded in those grading sessions, that has to be some kind of record! Yet no red flags!?! That one submission had 23 Jordan RC's in a row with 4 getting Gem Mt, then another has 19 Montana Rc's at one time with 14 getting 9's and the other 4 getting 8.5's! Why would they destroy the registry/pop reports with preferential grades like this for certain submitters? This all just blows my mind, they literally flooded the market with high grade high demand rookies!

This all makes me want to throw up to think of all the people out there that have been screwed by these con artists. These guys really need to do some really long prison sentences! Millions of $$ of fraud going on here.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by drcy

I understand that, and also understand/appreciate that it's a company website. No company is going to allow slamming of their product on their own site. That's why Beckett deleted their chatboard some years back.

Actually, Beckett deleted their chat board because the owners at the time believed it was not a "profitable" cost center. The uproar was so great the message boards were restored within a week. But that is how Chris Gilmour got Freedom Card Board up and running because most of the Beckett regulars went there.

Rich

[Rich Klein]

And I may be off the timeline by a few days but the lack of a forum was part of the "NEW" Beckett web site which was teased all during the 2008 National and other ways.

As noted, part of the "NEW" web site was the lack of a forum which was not brought over because it would not be a money making part of the web site.

The outcry was so loud that within a week there was a new forum added and it took another week or so for the forum to be easily accessible instead of having to have several steps to find said forum.

Needless to say, I bet you could find the details of that debacle in the archives of Net 54 as I was actively posting on both boards in those days.

Within a month, the then owners were forced by their bank (read lending institution) to see to Eli Research now known as Entrust and they have remained the owners since then. But the forum debacle might have been the final clue about the true dire straits of the previous owners (who had purchased the company from Dr. Beckett)

Just some more non-needed details about how the Beckett forum going away had nothing to do with negative comments.

Rich

[steve B]

Originally Posted by drcy

I understand that, and also understand/appreciate that it's a company website. No company is going to allow slamming of their product on their own site. That's why Beckett deleted their chatboard some years back.

The older I get the more I realize I've become very odd when it comes to customer service. When I actually have authority to fix problems I prefer to talk to people who have had a problem. They are the ones that I learn things from that make me better.
Not that talking to happy people is bad, I just learn less from them.

[Directly]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I've always wanted that card. Those are my two favorite players to collect. Any idea how that effects the value if Griffey did sign 10 or 20 years later?

If the Griffey Jr auto is not original to the card and was added later to possibly enhance the value, isn't this somewhat deceiving the Beckett Flip didn't advise the card had been altered.

Might this card be in the same category as other doctored cards not disclosing this fact ?-- (the card wasn't pulled from the pack as originally intended by the manufacturer)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dryden RC apparently recolored from a 9 to a 10. It looks like the 52B Musial guy bought it.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3068

[Sogcollector]

Originally Posted by drcy

I believe all the cards were signed by Griffey, and just a percentage by Mantle, so the only possible forgeries are the Mantle.

I recall examples signed by just griffey, just mantle and both together. Have never seen one signed in thick sharpie. They used a fine point sharpie. You can tell the mantle is legit. Imo griff on that card added later

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Directly

If the Griffey Jr auto is not original to the card and was added later to possibly enhance the value, isn't this somewhat deceiving the Beckett Flip didn't advise the card had been altered.

Might this card be in the same category as other doctored cards not disclosing this fact ?-- (the card wasn't pulled from the pack as originally intended by the manufacturer)

Interesting question. I don't really know the answer, and this is a unique example. No other card would be considered altered because the player on it signed it. Did the cards vary at all from the factory if they were dual or single signed? Would collectors care if the signature was added later?

I just like that it's the only card with my 2 personal favorite players from different eras on the same card. While I would prefer one that was pack issued with both signatures I could certainly see myself buying one with Griffey added later. Especially if this fact was disclosed and it saved me a few hundred bucks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Interesting question. I don't really know the answer, and this is a unique example. No other card would be considered altered because the player on it signed it. Did the cards vary at all from the factory if they were dual or single signed? Would collectors care if the signature was added later?

I just like that it's the only card with my 2 personal favorite players from different eras on the same card. While I would prefer one that was pack issued with both signatures I could certainly see myself buying one with Griffey added later. Especially if this fact was disclosed and it saved me a few hundred bucks.

I would spend up for the pack issued one. I don't think the market tends to value regular old signed cards not issued by the company and that's what this one would be, essentially.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would spend up for the pack issued one. I don't think the market tends to value regular old signed cards not issued by the company and that's what this one would be, essentially.

I agree on this one. I think the market for vintage signed cards has really taken off the last few years though. Aside from the scandal with the t206s.

But I still wouldn't mind with this card for my collection. Especially if I got Griffey to sign it personally at a show or something.

[jchcollins]

9 times out of 10 I really don't care about grading; I will buy graded online if all other things equal the price is in line with raw - but this stuff really makes my head spin. I have a Nolan Ryan rookie that is maybe a nice 5 that I was considering sending in to SGC just to get it in a slab - but now not sure I can even stomach doing that. I really wonder if the entire world of TPG's are getting ready to get stood on their collective ear...

[Republicaninmass]

great card, but always thought the drawings were hideous. Too bad as I've debated adding one for a while, but cant find one for a good price

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by drcy

I understand that, and also understand/appreciate that it's a company website. No company is going to allow slamming of their product on their own site. That's why Beckett deleted their chatboard some years back.

Completely agree. It's their site and they make the rules. The post was in good taste and I was surprised in the unprofessional response by calling me so late at night, giving me a good chewing. Orlando saw it and, if memory serves me right, it was about the time he was getting his promotion. I can only speculate as to why they acted the way that they did. Maybe it should've, but it didn't keep me from continuing to do business with them. The current level of negligence that is being uncovered has me wanting to throw the towel in on my PSA cards and sets, though.

[drcy]

Technically a (not issued as signed) signed card is altered, but it's really just in its own genre

Some game used collectors like and get their items signed, while others don't and some will go as far as to have authentic autographs removed.

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's a horrible situation, but at the same time let's not overreact.

You don’t think it’s possible (or even likely) that there are more altered than non-altered vintage cards in graded slabs right now? The older the card, the more generations of trimmers had an opportunity at it. Even if the profit motivation for trimming ramped up only in the 80s, when investing and formalized numerical grading became part and parcel of baseball card collecting, there was still plenty of reason to trim beforehand, if only to make one’s own card more appealing to the eye.

And in the era of greed, 80s and after, how many generations of trimmers had a shot at these cards before the motivation to trim went supernova with the rise of PSA, SGC, and BGS?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by RiceBondsMntna2Young

You don’t think it’s possible (or even likely) that there are more altered than non-altered vintage cards in graded slabs right now? The older the card, the more generations of trimmers had an opportunity at it. Even if the profit motivation for trimming ramped up only in the 80s, when investing and formalized numerical grading became part and parcel of baseball card collecting, there was still plenty of reason to trim beforehand, if only to make one’s own card more appealing to the eye.

And in the era of greed, 80s and after, how many generations of trimmers had a shot at these cards before the motivation to trim went supernova with the rise of PSA, SGC, and BGS?

Sadly... +1

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by RiceBondsMntna2Young

You don’t think it’s possible (or even likely) that there are more altered than non-altered vintage cards in graded slabs right now? The older the card, the more generations of trimmers had an opportunity at it. Even if the profit motivation for trimming ramped up only in the 80s, when investing and formalized numerical grading became part and parcel of baseball card collecting, there was still plenty of reason to trim beforehand, if only to make one’s own card more appealing to the eye.

And in the era of greed, 80s and after, how many generations of trimmers had a shot at these cards before the motivation to trim went supernova with the rise of PSA, SGC, and BGS?

It's a very high number but no way is it 50 percent. Not even close in my opinion. Look at ebay, look at 707's store for a good sense of the distribution of graded vintage cards, most cards are still worth relatively little.

[Sogcollector]

Originally Posted by Directly

Curious Beckett authentic--Is it possible this Griffey auto may have been added recently to this card and is it authentic, now listed as a auction on Ebay-- its appears signed with a bold sharpie quite different than all other examples I have seen on these dual signed card?

After studying this card more, I believe it was taken from a pack signed by mantle (think black sharpie) and the griffey was added later. The holograms on the back, as far as I know cannot be used to verify the signatures. This card never existed unsigned. It came from the 94 packs three ways. Signed by only mantle. Signed by only griffey and signed by both players.

[Sogcollector]

This one IMO is not a pack pulled piece. Real, but UDA gave some of these out as autograph redemption replacements from their vault if memory holds. Came with UDA coa.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1994-Upper-...ss!29654!US!-1

Pack pulled piece IMO

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1994-Upper-...QAAOSwglJc-rjT

The pack pulled pieces did not come with COA’s

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Sogcollector

After studying this card more, I believe it was taken from a pack signed by mantle (think black sharpie) and the griffey was added later. The holograms on the back, as far as I know cannot be used to verify the signatures. This card never existed unsigned. It came from the 94 packs three ways. Signed by only mantle. Signed by only griffey and signed by both players.

Agree...

That is definitely a more recent (and authentic) Griffey Jr. signature.

[drcy]

That's how I remember it now. The cards were issued signed by one, or both. If it's signed by one, it's necessarily authentic. If it's signed by both, forgeries most often are of the Mantle.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

Completely agree. It's their site and they make the rules. The post was in good taste and I was surprised in the unprofessional response by calling me so late at night, giving me a good chewing. Orlando saw it and, if memory serves me right, it was about the time he was getting his promotion. I can only speculate as to why they acted the way that they did. Maybe it should've, but it didn't keep me from continuing to do business with them. The current level of negligence that is being uncovered has me wanting to throw the towel in on my PSA cards and sets, though.

How to tell your business is a homerun.^^^^

Treat your customers badly and they keep coming back.

None of this will touch PSA.

[JeremyW]

I might be wrong, but I'm guessing that the people who had faith in PSA might start to question that faith sometime soon.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

How to tell your business is a homerun.^^^^

Treat your customers badly and they keep coming back.

None of this will touch PSA.

It depends on how adept they are at giving their customers a false sense of security that the problem has been contained and ameliorated. Now there are doubtless a lot of people who WANT to hear that message, so they may well believe it.

There is also the question of how far word of this travels. I did speak today with a guy who most would classify as an investor who does not read the message boards but did see the NYT article.