PWCC Statement on Recent Card Trimming Concerns

[luciobar1980]

Yup, I came here to post this as well. I had my eye on this auction:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680537796?nordt=true

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

Yup, I came here to post this as well. I had my eye on this auction:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680537796?nordt=true

You can tell with a quick glance the card has been soaked. The backs are never that washed out.

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This is from an email from Betsy copied on BO but they have posted it themselves too.

"I can assure you that this process is completely unbiased; when Brent does his review he does so for the entire auction after the cards have been sorted by sport, year, and issue."

If this were ever to go to court, would Betsy's emails in regards to her husband's business practices be admissible? She cant testify against him while married and they both enjoy communications privilege, so a lawyer would have to go after another source to back up her emails about her husband's business practices.

[bigfish]

Nice job Brent.....

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by topcat61

If this were ever to go to court, would Betsy's emails in regards to her husband's business practices be admissible? She cant testify against him while married and they both enjoy communications privilege, so a lawyer would have to go after another source to back up her emails about her husband's business practices.

It's not a communication between them so it's not privileged would be my initial reaction. I don't think she can be forced to testify against him -- off the top of my head, I haven't dealt with this in years -- but presumably the document could come in without her testimony.

[1952boyntoncollector]

When will this episode air?


Maybe can they will have a week dedicated to the hobby at the rate things are going... T206 signatures and the like..

[bounce]

I agree with Peter, there's plenty of ire towards the TPGs, you just have to read all of it.

PWCC is in focus because they gave market access to Moser (they've admitted as much now). They're also being questioned whether they actively participated in the alterations, and some of what has been found seems to indicate maybe they were. Until they say one way or another, we don't know FOR SURE but we have a pretty good idea.

"PSA is inept" is the easy way to give them a part in all this (and they clearly have a part in it). It's certainly the easiest answer, but that doesn't mean it's the real answer. There are reasons to believe that PSA knew who Moser was previously, and the possibility exists that they took cards directly from him or knew about his relationship with PWCC, and were taking his cards from them.

It's why the questions of (1) who sent those cards in, (2) what did they know about those cards when they were sent in, and (3) did PSA know anything about that relationship and/or if something had been done to the cards matters so much.

There's a whole matrix of what happens next depending on these answers. Some will point the financial issues to certain/all parties involved, others may point criminal issues to certain/all parties involved.

Certain outcomes are more likely than others, but obviously some things need to continue to play out.

None of the above addresses BGS, but they've got some similar and also different potential issues. They don't have the financial guarantee, so theirs is maybe a little less complicated.

[swarmee]

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/eye-appeal

"On average, PWCC Certified cards have consistently sold for 130-200% of average market. Our desire is to empower investors with a consistent and unbiased eye appeal assessment overseen by Brent Huigens, the founder of PWCC and a card expert with more than 25 years of experience in the industry. All pre-1987 trading cards with a market value over $250 are eligible for eye appeal review."

[70ToppsFanatic]

On the subject of the guarantee everyone so far is making an assumption that PSA would have to pay for these out of “reserves”. However, there is another possibility.

Most service businesses carry Errors & Omissions liability insurance, as well as quite a few addition liability coverages. If a TPG carries E&O coverage it would certainly be to cover extraordinary guarantee costs beyond a reasonable deductible level that the TPG would have to pay first.

While their future premiums could be increased dramatically as a result of this, I doubt very much that a large number of guarantee claims resulting from this situation would dent a TPG too badly in terms of depleting their reserves.

And besides, in this case there is a patsy named Brent who is basically going to take the brunt of it all. The TPG records are almost certainly sufficient to be used as the basis for going after Brent criminally if he doesn’t do exactly what the TPGs he brought into harms way want him to do.

More than likely almost none of the stink of this falls back on the TPGs if they intelligently leverage what they have to hold over Brent’s head.

[swarmee]

I keep asking questions, but get no response. Doesn't PWCC want to regain our trust?

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297500

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/eye-appeal

"On average, PWCC Certified cards have consistently sold for 130-200% of average market. Our desire is to empower investors with a consistent and unbiased eye appeal assessment overseen by Brent Huigens, the founder of PWCC and a card expert with more than 25 years of experience in the industry. All pre-1987 trading cards with a market value over $250 are eligible for eye appeal review."

It says the eye appeal assessment is overseen by him, not that he's the one actually doing the assessment (unless it says it somewhere else). But even if he is, do you really think he remembers every card he handles? Remember, these are being purchased by Moser as certain grade with a certain serial number and coming back for consignment with another grade and another serial number.

Reach in your pocket and pull out your change. Study each coin carefully. Now go spend them. Do this every day for the next 6 weeks and let me know if you get any of that same change back from another store within the next 6 weeks. This is basically what people are asking Brent to do - identify every card he's ever handled. Let's be realistic.

[swarmee]

American caramel Honus Wagners just grow on trees?

Edit: I remember the time as a kid I got an 1859 Indian Head penny in change.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

On the subject of the guarantee everyone so far is making an assumption that PSA would have to pay for these out of “reserves”. However, there is another possibility.

Most service businesses carry Errors & Omissions liability insurance, as well as quite a few addition liability coverages. If a TPG carries E&O coverage it would certainly be to cover extraordinary guarantee costs beyond a reasonable deductible level that the TPG would have to pay first.

While their future premiums could be increased dramatically as a result of this, I doubt very much that a large number of guarantee claims resulting from this situation would dent a TPG too badly in terms of depleting their reserves.

And besides, in this case there is a patsy named Brent who is basically going to take the brunt of it all. The TPG records are almost certainly sufficient to be used as the basis for going after Brent criminally if he doesn’t do exactly what the TPGs he brought into harms way want him to do.

More than likely almost none of the stink of this falls back on the TPGs if they intelligently leverage what they have to hold over Brent’s head.

I believe in the stockholder statement that revealed the $800k reserves they indicated they have no insurance for guarantee returns. Why would you have a contingency fund if you carried insurance?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by swarmee

American caramel Honus Wagners just grow on trees?

You're picking one rare card at random to make a point. No, they don't grow on tress, but apparently T206 Cobbs do as many as have been altered.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

It says the eye appeal assessment is overseen by him, not that he's the one actually doing the assessment (unless it says it somewhere else). But even if he is, do you really think he remembers every card he handles? Remember, these are being purchased by Moser as certain grade with a certain serial number and coming back for consignment with another grade and another serial number.

Reach in your pocket and pull out your change. Study each coin carefully. Now go spend them. Do this every day for the next 6 weeks and let me know if you get any of that same change back from another store within the next 6 weeks. This is basically what people are asking Brent to do - identify every card he's ever handled. Let's be realistic.

Brent didn't notice that stain in the exact same spot as the one he just reviewed and sold to the same person who is sent it back in? Hundreds of times. Let's be realistic.

[swarmee]

D@vid, if the devil does ever need an advocate, you be his #1 draft pick. As the Mythbusters would say, that myth is BUSTED!

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

On the subject of the guarantee everyone so far is making an assumption that PSA would have to pay for these out of “reserves”. However, there is another possibility.

Most service businesses carry Errors & Omissions liability insurance, as well as quite a few addition liability coverages. If a TPG carries E&O coverage it would certainly be to cover extraordinary guarantee costs beyond a reasonable deductible level that the TPG would have to pay first.

While their future premiums could be increased dramatically as a result of this, I doubt very much that a large number of guarantee claims resulting from this situation would dent a TPG too badly in terms of depleting their reserves.

And besides, in this case there is a patsy named Brent who is basically going to take the brunt of it all. The TPG records are almost certainly sufficient to be used as the basis for going after Brent criminally if he doesn’t do exactly what the TPGs he brought into harms way want him to do.

More than likely almost none of the stink of this falls back on the TPGs if they intelligently leverage what they have to hold over Brent’s head.

My gut reaction is that of all the misgraded PSA vintage cards, the great majority have nothing to do with PWCC. So perhaps for those that do involve PWCC, they will try to pin it on them. But it is my view that represents only the tip of the iceberg of PSA's potential exposure.

As to insurance coverage, that is not my area of expertise, except to say that the experiences I have had (in the real estate business) tell me that where there is potentially a lot of money on the line, carriers will look for any way out. And in this instance, I suspect they will take a long hard look at the voluminous numbers of high-grade vintage cards emanating from PSA. People for years have been opining that the sheer number is at variance with common sense, as well as reported observations from an earlier era. So this raises the issue to me of incompetence on the part of the insured which possibly could void coverage. Will an insurance company attempt to use that as a basis to deny coverage? Again, not my area of expertise but based on the limited experiences I have had, I would not be surprised to see that happen.

Also, even if such coverage does come into play, how much could it potentially cover? $1 million, $2 million, I have no idea. But I would not be surprised if whatever the limit is, it is far too little if a significant percentage of altered cards were to be returned to PSA.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

Brent didn't notice that stain in the exact same spot as the one he just reviewed and sold to the same person who is sent it back in? Hundreds of times. Let's be realistic.

I'll just post what I've already posted.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Do you think Brent personally looks at each and every card that PWCC consigns? Really? Who knew it was a one man operation.? Gee, I always figured he had workers that did that kind of stuff for him - receiving consignments, scanning, creating listings, shipping, etc.

[Peter_Spaeth]

David at this point with due respect you're out there on a limb all by yourself. There is ZERO question he knew he was selling altered cards and by that I include trimmed ones. ZERO. He's admitted it to a number of people even if the massive evidence hasn't convinced you. There's no point in continuing this discussion, you're just making yourself look bad.

[70ToppsFanatic]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I believe in the stockholder statement that revealed the $800k reserves they indicated they have no insurance for guarantee returns. Why would you have a contingency fund if you carried insurance?

Because anninsurname policy usually also has a deductible that the insured needs to meet first.

I am the treasurer of a national non-profit company that has some potential liability concerns. We carry liability insurance but not from the first dollar. Therefore we also have a reserve that can be used to cover any deductible claims expenses that might arise.

I don’t know of any well managed, publicly traded company that doesn’t carry sufficient insurance coverages to protect themselves. It would be a big surprise if a company like PSA was trying to self-insure something like this .

[bounce]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

do you really think he remembers every card he handles? Remember, these are being purchased by Moser as certain grade with a certain serial number and coming back for consignment with another grade and another serial number.

1 - purchased by Moser
2 - sent back in by Moser, either in a slab or raw (if raw, PWCC probably sent to PSA to be slabbed)
3 - assigns sticker

Really? He doesn't remember them?

Let me answer your question directly: NO, I do not think he remembers every card he handles. HOWEVER, I do think he remembers these quite well.

Believe what you want.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

Because anninsurname policy usually also has a deductible that the insured needs to meet first.

I am the treasurer of a national non-profit company that has some potential liability concerns. We carry liability insurance but not from the first dollar. Therefore we also have a reserve that can be used to cover any deductible claims expenses that might arise.

I don’t know of any well managed, publicly traded company that doesn’t carry sufficient insurance coverages to protect themselves. It would be a big surprise if a company like PSA was trying to self-insure something like this .

Let's see what the facts are.

From the CLCT 10K

We have no insurance coverage for claims made under these warranties, and therefore we maintain reserves for such warranty claims based on
historical experience.

Page 17, at the bottom.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David at this point with due respect you're out there on a limb all by yourself.

Thank you, Peter. I truly wear that as a badge of honor. I'm not like most members here. I can actually think for myself and I don't follow the herd. As I've already mentioned, I brought to light the dirty graders years ago in 2014. Everyone probably thought I was out on a limb all by myself then too. Nobody believed me then, looks like a lot do now.

3 years ago I was saying buy silver. I darn sure did. I feel a lot better about my silver purchases than most feel about their baseball card purchases right about now. What would you rather be holding onto right now? 50K in high grade cards or 50K in silver?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=216582
Post 32

I saw all this years ago, Peter when all the over graded cards first started showing up. Grading mistakes happen, but it was way too much and too often just to be a mistake. I knew then that it was only a matter of time before it all imploded. So to say that I'm out on a limb by myself I take as a compliment. I'm also saying Brent doesn't get indicted. We'll revisit that one too somewhere down the road. I'll say I told you so and gladly be out there on a limb by myself.

[steve B]

On the cars/odometers analogy, I don't know what auto auctions are required to do legally, but I do know how one handled that sort of stuff in the late 80's.

I worked for a dealership. As most do we got a decent number of cars we didn't want to resell either because of condition, age or they were stuff that was just too hard to sell. (Like a black on black Iroc Camaro with no AC... )
so we sent them to a wholesale auction.
They ran 4-5 different lanes of cars, and the ones I had the most experience with were the A lane cars. Old worn out high mileage, crash damaged..

The sales in the A lane were very nearly as-is. And very little was disclosed. The only car we had returned was one with a non-disclosed bent frame. The buyer figured it out before leaving the lot, had it examined by the auctions shop that existed just for that sort of dispute, and the auction company handled it quickly as the arbitrator. We got to keep the car, but sold it the next week with the damage disclosed, and got nearly as much.
There was the occasional dealer, usually smalltime who would try to get that sort of thing through regularly, and after a few times getting caught and being difficult about the sale being rejected they were thrown out. In at least one case bodily- what a fun day that was, even the sleazy dealers hated him.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Isn't silver at near an all time low?

[joshuanip]

If I was PWCC, I would hire a public relations consultant stat! They are worth it for the situation.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Isn't silver at near an all time low?

Wouldn't that be the time to buy? I'm still bullish on it.

Silver is pulled from the ground at a 9:1 ratio over gold. For every 9 ounces of silver that is mined, one ounce of gold is mined. So if it comes out of the ground at a 9:1 ratio, why is there a price difference of nearly 90:1?

Doesn't something have to give? Either gold comes down or silver goes up?

You can follow the herd. I'll be myself.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Wouldn't that be the time to buy? I'm still bullish on it.

Silver is pulled from the ground at a 9:1 ratio over gold. For every 9 ounces of silver that is mined, one ounce of gold is mined. So if it comes out of the ground at a 9:1 ratio, why is there a price difference of nearly 90:1?

Doesn't something have to give? Either gold comes down or silver goes up?

You can follow the herd. I'll be myself.

I do think it may well go up from here but I read your post to be implying that you made a good move buying it 3 years ago which implied you had done well with it so far.
Your math seems flawed though, it isn't just a question of quantity but I am sure you know that.

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Wouldn't that be the time to buy? I'm still bullish on it.

Silver is pulled from the ground at a 9:1 ratio over gold. For every 9 ounces of silver that is mined, one ounce of gold is mined. So if it comes out of the ground at a 9:1 ratio, why is there a price difference of nearly 90:1?

Doesn't something have to give? Either gold comes down or silver goes up?

You can follow the herd. I'll be myself.

Gold has better momentum:
https://twitter.com/NorthmanTrader/s...14569693532162


Sorry let me post something about this topic to not get off point:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.oregonlive.com/business/...d-scandal.html

local press coverage

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I do think it may well go up from here but I read your post to be implying that you made a good move buying it 3 years ago which implied you had done well with it so far.
Your math seems flawed though, it isn't just a question of quantity but I am sure you know that.

Read post #81 in the same thread. I sold a lot during that time.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

Gold has better momentum:

If you like gold, buy gold. The point of my question remains the same. What would you rather be holding right now? 50K in gold? 50K in silver? 50K in some other investment of your choice? Or 50K in high grade cards?

In the thread I linked, the OP had probably 100+ suggestions of cards to invest in. I was the only one that suggested an alternative to cards. Whose investment advice looks better right now? My overall point is, I don't mind being out on that limb all by myself as Peter suggested.

[CuriousGeorge]

Not 50K in CLCT stock. Down over 9% today. I guess someone thinks they’re going to have a problem.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Not 50K in CLCT stock. Down over 9% today. I guess someone thinks they’re going to have a problem.

Not because it up 50% from january...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Not 50K in CLCT stock. Down over 9% today. I guess someone thinks they’re going to have a problem.

Volume unusual?

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Meanwhile, after promising there were no Moser cards in the current auction, they have taken down quite a few more. I suppose it could be unrelated.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/401777740858?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352682160064?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401778998920?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680563526?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680532262?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680537796?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401777760222?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401777757855?nordt=true

Thank you Peter. I’d appreciate if you keep posting links to cards removed from the auction and other outed cards on other forums - I am not a member of any other forums and I am a tech idiot, so I get all my news here and appreciate the links.

Meanwhile, the jacked T206 Jennings one hand AB 460, psa 6 is still live, which means they have not taken out all the bad eggs; I suspect they have removed a mere fraction so far.

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Thank you Peter. I’d appreciate if you keep posting links to cards removed from the auction and other outed cards on other forums - I am not a member of any other forums and I am a tech idiot, so I get all my news here and appreciate the links.

Meanwhile, the jacked T206 Jennings one hand AB 460, psa 6 is still live, which means they have not taken out all the bad eggs; I suspect they have removed a mere fraction so far.

Good that they did this, I was bidding on the Red Cobb.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by swarmee

American caramel Honus Wagners just grow on trees?

Edit: I remember the time as a kid I got an 1859 Indian Head penny in change.

Seriously. What a f****** shame. And same with the e90-1s; at least the Joe Jax was already altered so it’s not like the alteration made it any less altered, more altered is still altered

[70ToppsFanatic]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Let's see what the facts are.

From the CLCT 10K

We have no insurance coverage for claims made under these warranties, and therefore we maintain reserves for such warranty claims based on
historical experience.

Page 17, at the bottom.

Thanks for checking. Foolish was to run a publicly traded company IMO

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Seriously. What a f****** shame. And same with the e90-1s; at least the Joe Jax was already altered so it’s not like the alteration made it any less altered, more altered is still altered

Kinda like trimming an already sheet cut Wagner maybe.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

Thanks for checking. Foolish was to run a publicly traded company IMO

It will certainly be interesting to watch how this evolves.

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Not because it up 50% from january...

Even more of a reason why it has plenty to fall. Volume slightly higher than normal but any kind of real selling looks like it will crush the price.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Meanwhile, after promising there were no Moser cards in the current auction, they have taken down quite a few more. I suppose it could be unrelated.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/401777740858?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352682160064?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401778998920?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680563526?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680532262?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680537796?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401777760222?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401777757855?nordt=true

wow, that's quite a list of pulled cards there. I hope that gives everyone a scope of this problem created and 10 years running. These cards and others just like it, month after month after month. All those conservators better have paid their taxes on that income... Thanks for pulling these and the Wagner. If it had happened 3 weeks ago like you said it would have held more weight. Better late than never.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Seriously. What a f****** shame. And same with the e90-1s; at least the Joe Jax was already altered so it’s not like the alteration made it any less altered, more altered is still altered

Sorry Leon!! I will mind my language. My bad, sincerely

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

wow, that's quite a list of pulled cards there. I hope that gives everyone a scope of this problem created and 10 years running. These cards and others just like it, month after month after month. All those conservators better have paid their taxes on that income... Thanks for pulling these and the Wagner. If it had happened 3 weeks ago like you said it would have held more weight. Better late than never.

More like 10 years ago.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.oregonlive.com/business/...d-scandal.html

Just because PWCC's statement uses passive voice to minimize their culpability doesn't mean the article writers have to follow their lead. I'd like to see active verb usage in the future.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Isn't silver at near an all time low?

Every idiot should have gold, silver and baseball cards in their portfolio....like I do.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

Because anninsurname policy usually also has a deductible that the insured needs to meet first.

I am the treasurer of a national non-profit company that has some potential liability concerns. We carry liability insurance but not from the first dollar. Therefore we also have a reserve that can be used to cover any deductible claims expenses that might arise.

I don’t know of any well managed, publicly traded company that doesn’t carry sufficient insurance coverages to protect themselves. It would be a big surprise if a company like PSA was trying to self-insure something like this .

Again, read the stockholder statement. It states pretty unequivocally that they do NOT carry insurance on their guarantee.

EDIT: Peter had my back. Thanks.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Thank you Peter. I’d appreciate if you keep posting links to cards removed from the auction and other outed cards on other forums - I am not a member of any other forums and I am a tech idiot, so I get all my news here and appreciate the links.

Meanwhile, the jacked T206 Jennings one hand AB 460, psa 6 is still live, which means they have not taken out all the bad eggs; I suspect they have removed a mere fraction so far.

right...another 1000 this auction and they'll be home free.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

Finally, in response to these recent findings, we are no longer selling any Moser-submitted cards.

Springer voice: "And the lie detector determined.... that was a lie."