Babe Ruth?

[rscheck]

Originally Posted by mschwade

$7k with 27+ hours to go! Congratulations rsheck! Not bad for a gift from a stranger you didn't know!

How about a gift from a nice woman that my dad knew. Thanks!

[GrayGhost]

Taxes?ugh

[Leon]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

Taxes?ugh

As a very wealthy person once told me, the more taxes I pay the better off I am. Personally, I wish I was paying 5m in taxes......

As for the ticket. Until irrefutable information comes out, which Chris seems to be withholding, the ticket and signature are good. As much as I am always in Chris's corner (hi Chris) I think this situation could have been handled better. At very minimum I would have hoped that Chris would have privately shared the smoking gun, if there is one, with H & S and the consignor.

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by Leon

As a very wealthy person once told me, the more taxes I pay the better off I am. Personally, I wish I was paying 5m in taxes......

As for the ticket. Until irrefutable information comes out, which Chris seems to be withholding, the ticket and signature are good. As much as I am always in Chris's corner (hi Chris) I think this situation could have been handled better. At very minimum I would have hoped that Chris would have privately shared the smoking gun, if there is one, with H & S and the consignor.

I've gotten lost on this story. Someone is going to spend 7000+ on this autographed item. I enjoy Chris' videos and contributions, but unless there is DEFINITE PROOF that it is a fake, stub/autograph and all, then the usual "leap of faith" needs to be taken by the bidders. It really doesn't matter who the COA is from, etc. because ITS ALL OPINION, as none of us saw Babe sit down that day and sign that VERY ITEM.

I am not knowledgable like a lot of you guys, but to me, that looks like it could be close enough to a certain as can be Babe to allow a little variation, and it still be good.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Leon

As a very wealthy person once told me, the more taxes I pay the better off I am. Personally, I wish I was paying 5m in taxes......

As for the ticket. Until irrefutable information comes out, which Chris seems to be withholding, the ticket and signature are good. As much as I am always in Chris's corner (hi Chris) I think this situation could have been handled better. At very minimum I would have hoped that Chris would have privately shared the smoking gun, if there is one, with H & S and the consignor.

"This situation could have been handled better"?

There should not have been a "situation"!

Chris hasn't "shared," because Chris has nothing to share.

(And yes, it's been obvious that you're "always in Chris's corner.'

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

(And yes, it's been obvious that you're "always in Chris's corner.'

Oh boy

[Leon]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

"This situation could have been handled better"?

There should not have been a "situation"!

Chris hasn't "shared," because Chris has nothing to share.

(And yes, it's been obvious that you're "always in Chris's corner.'

Chris does more good stuff than you have enemies on the board. And that is saying something!!

Just because I don't care for the way this one thing has been handled doesn't mean I don't appreciate what Chris has done and does. I do, a lot.

[shelly]

Leon, you must have your cowboy boots on today. You sure are kicking a-s

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Leon

Chris does more good stuff than you have enemies on the board. And that is saying something!!

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Leon

Chris does more good stuff than you have enemies on the board. And that is saying something!!

Just because I don't care for the way this one thing has been handled doesn't mean I don't appreciate what Chris has done and does. I do, a lot.

He's got you pretty well snookered, Leon!!
But I doubt he'll be doing much, anymore.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Hey, Rich. Have you shared that "tell" with H&S yet? It sure would be a shame if some collector inadvertently buys a $7k+ forgery, when a few words from you could prevent that.

[travrosty]

Maybe he learned that you have to have proof first, and certainly proof you are willing to show.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by travrosty

Maybe he learned that you have to have proof first, and certainly proof you are willing to show.

Travis, you just dont know when to stop.

[David Atkatz]

Why Shelly. Don't you think that single sentence of Travis's does a marvelous job of summing up this entire debacle of a thread?

[GrayGhost]

Why can't everyone just DROP IT and let it play out?. I swear, a bunch of kids playing in a sandbox are more civil.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

Why can't everyone just DROP IT and let it play out?. I swear, a bunch of kids playing in a sandbox are more civil.

Drop this entire "situation" would be unfair to H&S, the consigner and potential buyer. What a mess this has become... very unfair to the 3 parties listed above. It really doesn't make ANYONE look good.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

Why can't everyone just DROP IT and let it play out?. I swear, a bunch of kids playing in a sandbox are more civil.

I am done.

[Frozen in Time]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

Drop this entire "situation" would be unfair to H&S, the consigner and potential buyer. What a mess this has become... very unfair to the 3 parties listed above. It really doesn't make ANYONE look good.

+1

[GrayGhost]

I do agree it is a mess to those three people. But people on here hiding stuff, like this is the veil of secrecy..Man...I'm not watching a James Bond flick, this stuff shouldn't happen.

I do hope it works out well for everyone tho. You can't help to feel that this is doing nothing but hurting the sale too, as others have said.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

Hey, Rich. Have you shared that "tell" with H&S yet? It sure would be a shame if some collector inadvertently buys a $7k+ forgery, when a few words from you could prevent that.

I'm sure the above was a 'tongue in cheek' comment. H&S pays the TPA's to do a job. They did the job (authenticating the item). Revealing a 'tell' wouldn't have any effect on the validity of the TPAs' assessment.

A 'tell' is a great thing to have, but it's still a matter of the TPA looking at a signature, comparing to exemplars, and making a decision. They did that. Perhaps they screwed up, but they did the job they were paid to do, and they were chosen to do it because H&S had faith in their work.

The only thing that will affect this is the legwork/research/whatever that Chris supposedly has in his back pocket, and which I'm guessing has to do with either the ticket or the provenance, since anything related to the signature would just be an opinion.

[Shrine213]

After havng gone through 37 pages of posts I am still seeking a consensus on the authenticity of the Ruth sig. I know that at least 2 people feel it is fake but I have lost count on the people who feel it is real. Am I correct in assuming that the consensus OPINION is that it is real?

Now for the fun. Assuming it is real what do people think it is worth and what it hammer down at?

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I'm sure the above was a 'tongue in cheek' comment. H&S pays the TPA's to do a job. They did the job (authenticating the item). Revealing a 'tell' wouldn't have any effect on the validity of the TPAs' assessment.

No, Scott. It certainly was not "tongue in cheek."

Over and over, Rich proclaims himself to be a hobby "white knight," working tirelessly, and at much personal risk, to rid us of the forgers. He claims to have information, which, if shared with the TPAs that the major auction houses use, could all but insure the "Michigan forger" would no longer have his pieces authenticated and sold by those auction houses. Yet he keeps the information to himself.

There are two--and only two--possibilities. Either Rich has the info he alludes to, but, in not sharing with other professionals shows he is not the hero he claims to be, or, he has no information at all.

[Runscott]

Now I'm lost. I thought it was 'Chris' and 'Michigan'. Now it's 'Rich' and 'Missouri'?

I hate being baffled. Going for another cup of coffee to clear my head.

[cubsfan-budman]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Now I'm lost. I thought it was 'Chris' and 'Michigan'. Now it's 'Rich' and 'Missouri'?

I hate being baffled. Going for another cup of coffee to clear my head.

Yeah, it's Michigan.

But both Chris and Richard seem to know who this "mystery forger" is, but neither are spilling the beans.

Ostensibly because they are afraid of some legal action.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

Yeah, it's Michigan.

But both Chris and Richard seem to know who this "mystery forger" is, but neither are spilling the beans.

Ostensibly because they are afraid of some legal action.

They don't "seem to know." That would imply that they've shown some evidence. They say they know. Big difference.

And how could telling a fellow professional, "Look, if you see this characteristic (the famous "tell") in a Ruth signature, there's a pretty good chance it's bad," lead to legal action?

[JT]

It would appear that if they just disclosed this "tell" to whomever, and not mention any names, there is absolutely no chance for litigation.

Simple enough, if true,

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by JT

It would appear that if they just disclosed this "tell" to whomever, and not mention any names, there is absolutely no chance for litigation.

Simple enough, if true,

I don't get why you all are so hung up on this 'tell'. First of all, 'tells' aren't 100% conclusive - if they were, then someone would have revealed a 'tell' of Ruth himself, that would allow us to identify every single legitimate Ruth autograph.

Is everyone really failing to see that the 'tell' is not the issue here?

Do you all really think that Chris is that dumb? Seriously, I don't agree with all of his opinions, but he's a smart guy and he's always been very careful.

[David Atkatz]

If one truly wants to rid the hobby of forgers--or do as much as one can towards that end--one shares information with fellow professionals.

Not to do so when one is continually bragging about his efforts to "clean up the hobby,' is nothing short of hypocritical.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I don't get why you all are so hung up on this 'tell'. First of all, 'tells' aren't 100% conclusive - if they were, then someone would have revealed a 'tell' of Ruth himself, that would allow us to identify every single legitimate Ruth autograph.

Is everyone really failing to see that the 'tell' is not the issue here?

Do you all really think that Chris is that dumb? Seriously, I don't agree with all of his opinions, but he's a smart guy and he's always been very careful.

Well put Scott.
And for those urging the tell to be revealed I have already explained my reasons for not revealing it. If that is not good enough well, then I am sorry but it is Chris' decision and my decision, for obvious reasons which have been explained already, why we do not think it should be revealed.
And Leon, thank you for the option we have to block posts we do not wish to waste our time on.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Well put Scott.
And for those urging the tell to be revealed I have already explained my reasons for not revealing it. If that is not good enough well, then I am sorry but it is Chris' decision and my decision, for obvious reasons which have been explained already, why we do not think it should be revealed.

Your excuse is beginning to register on people's BS meters, Rich. It won't hold up forever.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Well put Scott.
And for those urging the tell to be revealed I have already explained my reasons for not revealing it. If that is not good enough well, then I am sorry but it is Chris' decision and my decision, for obvious reasons which have been explained already, why we do not think it should be revealed.
And Leon, thank you for the option we have to block posts we do not wish to waste our time on.

Hi Rich,
It is our s/w that has the block feature. You can block everyone except moderators. You must listen to my drivel, I command you . However, on a subject related note, I do have to agree with those (and even David) that have made the observation that, even if you and Chris won't tell what this secret mystery is to the general public, it would be nice if ya'll would tell the vested parties, H & S and the consignor...at least privately. If I knew an item was bad I couldn't live with myself letting someone get burnt. That's just me though....

[rscheck]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hi Rich,
It is our s/w that has the block feature. You can block everyone except moderators. You must listen to my drivel, I command you . However, on a subject related note, I do have to agree with those (and even David) that have made the observation that, even if you and Chris won't tell what this secret mystery is to the general public, it would be nice if ya'll would tell the vested parties, H & S and the consignor...at least privately. If I knew an item was bad I couldn't live with myself letting someone get burnt. That's just me though....

And the consignor has been around and taking phone calls from several people on this thread (Still waiting for Chris).

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

If one truly wants to rid the hobby of forgers--or do as much as one can towards that end--one shares information with fellow professionals.

Not to do so when one is continually bragging about his efforts to "clean up the hobby,' is nothing short of hypocritical.

i agree info should be shared.

if people aren't going to share a tell, then what good is a tell? If two people know and no one else is ever going to know. then any bad autographs can only be pulled on that persons word, not on the tell itself. They ain't sharing the tell, which means might as not be a tell at all (and there might not be one) and what good is the two people knowing the ' secret' tell?

people need proof, not ones word. if someone says "that's fake and only i know why", that's not good enough, people need proof.


He wasn't even telling H & S, so what good is it? In this hobby, in God we trust , the rest pay cash, either its cash on the barrellhead, show what you got, or forget it. Why even start a thread like this? looks like an ego play to be the vice president of the hobby in charge of forgeries. just dumb all the way around to do it like this. we need trasnparency and the sharing of information, not secret fraternal handshakes.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by JT

It would appear that if they just disclosed this "tell" to whomever, and not mention any names, there is absolutely no chance for litigation.

Simple enough, if true,

If I see a Babe Ruth autograph on Net54 with the tell, I will post the fact that the tell is present.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

If I see a Babe Ruth autograph on Net54 with the tell, I will post the fact that the tell is present.

Oh boy!

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hi Rich,
It is our s/w that has the block feature. You can block everyone except moderators. You must listen to my drivel, I command you . However, on a subject related note, I do have to agree with those (and even David) that have made the observation that, even if you and Chris won't tell what this secret mystery is to the general public, it would be nice if ya'll would tell the vested parties, H & S and the consignor...at least privately. If I knew an item was bad I couldn't live with myself letting someone get burnt. That's just me though....

What would H&S or the consignor do if they were told about the tell? Would it make a difference to them? No it would not.
I obey your commands Master Leon, I will always listen to you
And I have enjoyed your recent comments today . Well done, kudos to you sir.
I assume that David's posts of probable drivel and probable crap ( probably more than one of his posts, but I don't know since the block feature is so handy) have been hammering me. If so, everyone here knows him so who cares?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

What would H&S or the consignor do if they were told about the tell? Would it make a difference to them? No it would not.
I obey your commands Master Leon, I will always listen to you
And I have enjoyed your recent comments today . Well done, kudos to you sir.
I assume that David's posts of probable drivel and probable crap ( probably more than one of his posts, but I don't know since the block feature is so handy) have been hammering me. If so, everyone here knows him so who cares?

What's the point in blocking him if you're going to talk about him in every other post?

[yanks12025]

Also how can people sue if you post their name? I can understand if you come out and say John Doe is a forger and sells nothing but fakes. But if you just randomly post the name John Doe, then they can't do anything because you said nothing about them just posting a random name(sure tons of people are named John Doe). So if I find a post somewhere that has the name Brock Lewis, does that mean I could sue them also?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

...So if I find a post somewhere that has the name Brock Lewis, does that mean I could sue them also?

If it's 'Archive' Brock Lewis, sure.

[Big Dave]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

If I see a Babe Ruth autograph on Net54 with the tell, I will post the fact that the tell is present.

I may be mistaken, but didnt you state that the Babe Ruth on the ticket had this so called "tell", and that is why you and Chris don't believe it to be real?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

What would H&S or the consignor do if they were told about the tell? Would it make a difference to them? No it would not.

Well, if you did tell them then the onus would be on them. The way it is now, it is on you and Chris (imo). Many times I will do something that is probably futile so I can say that I did all I could do. I at least tried. Short of that then it falls back on me. And I don't want that ball in my court. Again, just my way of thinking....

[Frozen in Time]

If the consignor's story is true (I have no reason from what I have read so far to believe that is not the case) then the ticket and Ruth auto are real, period. This is supported by the authentication of both the ticket and auto twice by Spence and SGS.

On the other hand, both Richard and Chris are adamant that the auto (and perhaps also the ticket in Chris's case) is/are fake and, more specifically the work of a forger in Michigan that they know the name of as well as his specific "tells" when doing Ruth autos.

So, what is the truth? How can one determine which story/opinion is correct?
With the paucity of details coming from those who believe the auto and/or the ticket is/are not real, I for one tend to believe the consignor's story that both are authentic.

Perhaps more importantly, what have we learned from this thread? Certainly nothing to help anyone in their quest to be able to distinguish authentic Ruth autos from fakes. And the unwillingness of those that claim they have proof of some crook that sells Ruth forgeries to share that information with H&S or respected members of this forum in private communication, despite all the reasons for not doing so that have been posted, still seems to me to be a step backward for the Hobby and another slippery slide forward for the forgers.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

I may be mistaken, but didnt you state that the Babe Ruth on the ticket had this so called "tell", and that is why you and Chris don't believe it to be real?

The ticket and the picture posted by Chris (#68) do have the tell.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Frozen in Time

If the consignor's story is true (I have no reason from what I have read so far to believe that is not the case) then the ticket and Ruth auto are real, period. This is supported by the authentication of both the ticket and auto twice by Spence and SGS.

On the other hand, both Richard and Chris are adamant that the auto (and perhaps also the ticket in Chris's case) is/are fake and, more specifically the work of a forger in Michigan that they know the name of as well as his specific "tells" when doing Ruth autos.

So, what is the truth? How can one determine which story/opinion is correct?
With the paucity of details coming from those who believe the auto and/or the ticket is/are not real, I for one tend to believe the consignor's story that both are authentic.

Perhaps more importantly, what have we learned from this thread? Certainly nothing to help anyone in their quest to be able to distinguish authentic Ruth autos from fakes. And the unwillingness of those that claim they have proof of some crook that sells Ruth forgeries to share that information with H&S or respected members of this forum in private communication, despite all the reasons for not doing so that have been posted, still seems to me to be a step backward for the Hobby and another slippery slide forward for the forgers.

+1

This entire thing is BS. The auction ends tonight and nothing. If it ends this way, there is a whole lot of credibility that will be lost for a myriad of reasons.
I would be more worried about litigation with the consigner than a mystery forger in Iowa. One does not have to reveal a name to say why it is bad. “Tell” us why it is bad.
THIS is doing NOTHING positive for the hobby in ANY WAY if left open ended like this.
I hope something is shared.. and shared pronto. If nothing is shared, it is an injustice to the consigner, H&S, JSA, the potential buyer and this board. If there is nothing to tell and/or a mistake was made, that should be shared too.
This appears to be about Egos now and not for the greater good of the hobby. I guess I am not surprised.. just VERY disappointed on what this forum has become.

[rscheck]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

The ticket and the picture posted by Chris (#68) do have the tell.

Let us be VERY CLEAR here. The item you are referring to is one that was posted by Mr. Williams and IS NO WAY associated with the autograph and ticket I am offering with H&S

[jgmp123]

Last time I post or reply in this thread:

Why is it that so many people on here are more than happy when they post an autograph and ask for an opinion from Chris or Richard about its authenticity and when they reply with Good or Bad, they are perfectly fine with that.....

But now they have no credibility

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by rscheck

Let us be VERY CLEAR here. The item you are referring to is one that was posted by Mr. Williams and IS NO WAY associated with the autograph and ticket I am offering with H&S

I believe he said the one posted by Chris(#68) and your ticket have teh same tell. Is that right Richard?

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

+1

This entire thing is BS. The auction ends tonight and nothing. If it ends this way, there is a whole lot of credibility that will be lost for a myriad of reasons.
I would be more worried about litigation with the consigner than a mystery forger in Iowa. One does not have to reveal a name to say why it is bad. “Tell” us why it is bad.
THIS is doing NOTHING positive for the hobby in ANY WAY if left open ended like this.
I hope something is shared.. and shared pronto. If nothing is shared, it is an injustice to the consigner, H&S, JSA, the potential buyer and this board. If there is nothing to tell and/or a mistake was made, that should be shared too.
This appears to be about Egos now and not for the greater good of the hobby. I guess I am not surprised.. just VERY disappointed on what this forum has become.

And the white knight facade crumbles a bit more.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by rscheck

Let us be VERY CLEAR here. The item you are referring to is one that was posted by Mr. Williams and IS NO WAY associated with the autograph and ticket I am offering with H&S

That is correct.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

I believe he said the one posted by Chris(#68) and your ticket have teh same tell. Is that right Richard?

Yes that is correct.