Babe Ruth?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by JT

It would appear that if they just disclosed this "tell" to whomever, and not mention any names, there is absolutely no chance for litigation.

Simple enough, if true,

I don't get why you all are so hung up on this 'tell'. First of all, 'tells' aren't 100% conclusive - if they were, then someone would have revealed a 'tell' of Ruth himself, that would allow us to identify every single legitimate Ruth autograph.

Is everyone really failing to see that the 'tell' is not the issue here?

Do you all really think that Chris is that dumb? Seriously, I don't agree with all of his opinions, but he's a smart guy and he's always been very careful.

[David Atkatz]

If one truly wants to rid the hobby of forgers--or do as much as one can towards that end--one shares information with fellow professionals.

Not to do so when one is continually bragging about his efforts to "clean up the hobby,' is nothing short of hypocritical.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

If one truly wants to rid the hobby of forgers--or do as much as one can towards that end--one shares information with fellow professionals.

Not to do so when one is continually bragging about his efforts to "clean up the hobby,' is nothing short of hypocritical.

i agree info should be shared.

if people aren't going to share a tell, then what good is a tell? If two people know and no one else is ever going to know. then any bad autographs can only be pulled on that persons word, not on the tell itself. They ain't sharing the tell, which means might as not be a tell at all (and there might not be one) and what good is the two people knowing the ' secret' tell?

people need proof, not ones word. if someone says "that's fake and only i know why", that's not good enough, people need proof.


He wasn't even telling H & S, so what good is it? In this hobby, in God we trust , the rest pay cash, either its cash on the barrellhead, show what you got, or forget it. Why even start a thread like this? looks like an ego play to be the vice president of the hobby in charge of forgeries. just dumb all the way around to do it like this. we need trasnparency and the sharing of information, not secret fraternal handshakes.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I don't get why you all are so hung up on this 'tell'. First of all, 'tells' aren't 100% conclusive - if they were, then someone would have revealed a 'tell' of Ruth himself, that would allow us to identify every single legitimate Ruth autograph.

Is everyone really failing to see that the 'tell' is not the issue here?

Do you all really think that Chris is that dumb? Seriously, I don't agree with all of his opinions, but he's a smart guy and he's always been very careful.

Well put Scott.
And for those urging the tell to be revealed I have already explained my reasons for not revealing it. If that is not good enough well, then I am sorry but it is Chris' decision and my decision, for obvious reasons which have been explained already, why we do not think it should be revealed.
And Leon, thank you for the option we have to block posts we do not wish to waste our time on.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Well put Scott.
And for those urging the tell to be revealed I have already explained my reasons for not revealing it. If that is not good enough well, then I am sorry but it is Chris' decision and my decision, for obvious reasons which have been explained already, why we do not think it should be revealed.

Your excuse is beginning to register on people's BS meters, Rich. It won't hold up forever.

[Frozen in Time]

If the consignor's story is true (I have no reason from what I have read so far to believe that is not the case) then the ticket and Ruth auto are real, period. This is supported by the authentication of both the ticket and auto twice by Spence and SGS.

On the other hand, both Richard and Chris are adamant that the auto (and perhaps also the ticket in Chris's case) is/are fake and, more specifically the work of a forger in Michigan that they know the name of as well as his specific "tells" when doing Ruth autos.

So, what is the truth? How can one determine which story/opinion is correct?
With the paucity of details coming from those who believe the auto and/or the ticket is/are not real, I for one tend to believe the consignor's story that both are authentic.

Perhaps more importantly, what have we learned from this thread? Certainly nothing to help anyone in their quest to be able to distinguish authentic Ruth autos from fakes. And the unwillingness of those that claim they have proof of some crook that sells Ruth forgeries to share that information with H&S or respected members of this forum in private communication, despite all the reasons for not doing so that have been posted, still seems to me to be a step backward for the Hobby and another slippery slide forward for the forgers.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Frozen in Time

If the consignor's story is true (I have no reason from what I have read so far to believe that is not the case) then the ticket and Ruth auto are real, period. This is supported by the authentication of both the ticket and auto twice by Spence and SGS.

On the other hand, both Richard and Chris are adamant that the auto (and perhaps also the ticket in Chris's case) is/are fake and, more specifically the work of a forger in Michigan that they know the name of as well as his specific "tells" when doing Ruth autos.

So, what is the truth? How can one determine which story/opinion is correct?
With the paucity of details coming from those who believe the auto and/or the ticket is/are not real, I for one tend to believe the consignor's story that both are authentic.

Perhaps more importantly, what have we learned from this thread? Certainly nothing to help anyone in their quest to be able to distinguish authentic Ruth autos from fakes. And the unwillingness of those that claim they have proof of some crook that sells Ruth forgeries to share that information with H&S or respected members of this forum in private communication, despite all the reasons for not doing so that have been posted, still seems to me to be a step backward for the Hobby and another slippery slide forward for the forgers.

+1

This entire thing is BS. The auction ends tonight and nothing. If it ends this way, there is a whole lot of credibility that will be lost for a myriad of reasons.
I would be more worried about litigation with the consigner than a mystery forger in Iowa. One does not have to reveal a name to say why it is bad. “Tell” us why it is bad.
THIS is doing NOTHING positive for the hobby in ANY WAY if left open ended like this.
I hope something is shared.. and shared pronto. If nothing is shared, it is an injustice to the consigner, H&S, JSA, the potential buyer and this board. If there is nothing to tell and/or a mistake was made, that should be shared too.
This appears to be about Egos now and not for the greater good of the hobby. I guess I am not surprised.. just VERY disappointed on what this forum has become.

[jgmp123]

Last time I post or reply in this thread:

Why is it that so many people on here are more than happy when they post an autograph and ask for an opinion from Chris or Richard about its authenticity and when they reply with Good or Bad, they are perfectly fine with that.....

But now they have no credibility

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Last time I post or reply in this thread:

Why is it that so many people on here are more than happy when they post an autograph and ask for an opinion from Chris or Richard about its authenticity and when they reply with Good or Bad, they are perfectly fine with that.....

But now they have no credibility

Chris, I believe has had the trust of many people on here. He has done a lot of great things. I think that is why this is very frustrating for people including myself.
However, Credibility is not a forever stamp.
I am sure he has his reasons for not adding to his thread for days. If it is simply an opinion, that is fine.. just state that. But to say it is absolute, there should be some proof. This is my opinion.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Last time I post or reply in this thread:

Why is it that so many people on here are more than happy when they post an autograph and ask for an opinion from Chris or Richard about its authenticity and when they reply with Good or Bad, they are perfectly fine with that.....

But now they have no credibility

Two different camps. There are probably a few who think certain people's opinions are infallible, but I haven't seen them questioning Chris or Richard's credibility in this thread.

David and Chris have a dispute, but if you ignore that, the main thrust of this thread is 'evidence', not credibility.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

+1

This entire thing is BS. The auction ends tonight and nothing. If it ends this way, there is a whole lot of credibility that will be lost for a myriad of reasons.
I would be more worried about litigation with the consigner than a mystery forger in Iowa. One does not have to reveal a name to say why it is bad. “Tell” us why it is bad.
THIS is doing NOTHING positive for the hobby in ANY WAY if left open ended like this.
I hope something is shared.. and shared pronto. If nothing is shared, it is an injustice to the consigner, H&S, JSA, the potential buyer and this board. If there is nothing to tell and/or a mistake was made, that should be shared too.
This appears to be about Egos now and not for the greater good of the hobby. I guess I am not surprised.. just VERY disappointed on what this forum has become.

And the white knight facade crumbles a bit more.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Well put Scott.
And for those urging the tell to be revealed I have already explained my reasons for not revealing it. If that is not good enough well, then I am sorry but it is Chris' decision and my decision, for obvious reasons which have been explained already, why we do not think it should be revealed.
And Leon, thank you for the option we have to block posts we do not wish to waste our time on.

Hi Rich,
It is our s/w that has the block feature. You can block everyone except moderators. You must listen to my drivel, I command you . However, on a subject related note, I do have to agree with those (and even David) that have made the observation that, even if you and Chris won't tell what this secret mystery is to the general public, it would be nice if ya'll would tell the vested parties, H & S and the consignor...at least privately. If I knew an item was bad I couldn't live with myself letting someone get burnt. That's just me though....

[rscheck]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hi Rich,
It is our s/w that has the block feature. You can block everyone except moderators. You must listen to my drivel, I command you . However, on a subject related note, I do have to agree with those (and even David) that have made the observation that, even if you and Chris won't tell what this secret mystery is to the general public, it would be nice if ya'll would tell the vested parties, H & S and the consignor...at least privately. If I knew an item was bad I couldn't live with myself letting someone get burnt. That's just me though....

And the consignor has been around and taking phone calls from several people on this thread (Still waiting for Chris).

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hi Rich,
It is our s/w that has the block feature. You can block everyone except moderators. You must listen to my drivel, I command you . However, on a subject related note, I do have to agree with those (and even David) that have made the observation that, even if you and Chris won't tell what this secret mystery is to the general public, it would be nice if ya'll would tell the vested parties, H & S and the consignor...at least privately. If I knew an item was bad I couldn't live with myself letting someone get burnt. That's just me though....

What would H&S or the consignor do if they were told about the tell? Would it make a difference to them? No it would not.
I obey your commands Master Leon, I will always listen to you
And I have enjoyed your recent comments today . Well done, kudos to you sir.
I assume that David's posts of probable drivel and probable crap ( probably more than one of his posts, but I don't know since the block feature is so handy) have been hammering me. If so, everyone here knows him so who cares?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

What would H&S or the consignor do if they were told about the tell? Would it make a difference to them? No it would not.
I obey your commands Master Leon, I will always listen to you
And I have enjoyed your recent comments today . Well done, kudos to you sir.
I assume that David's posts of probable drivel and probable crap ( probably more than one of his posts, but I don't know since the block feature is so handy) have been hammering me. If so, everyone here knows him so who cares?

What's the point in blocking him if you're going to talk about him in every other post?

[yanks12025]

Also how can people sue if you post their name? I can understand if you come out and say John Doe is a forger and sells nothing but fakes. But if you just randomly post the name John Doe, then they can't do anything because you said nothing about them just posting a random name(sure tons of people are named John Doe). So if I find a post somewhere that has the name Brock Lewis, does that mean I could sue them also?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

...So if I find a post somewhere that has the name Brock Lewis, does that mean I could sue them also?

If it's 'Archive' Brock Lewis, sure.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

What would H&S or the consignor do if they were told about the tell? Would it make a difference to them? No it would not.

Well, if you did tell them then the onus would be on them. The way it is now, it is on you and Chris (imo). Many times I will do something that is probably futile so I can say that I did all I could do. I at least tried. Short of that then it falls back on me. And I don't want that ball in my court. Again, just my way of thinking....