What are the best vintage, investment-type players in your opinion?

[uniship]

Curious your thoughts on the best players and or cards to invest in for vintage as of this time in our history September 2024.

Here’s my two cents - would love to hear yours.

Joe Jackson
Josh Gibson (what little there is)
Early Negro league players that were the first major league baseball players
Jackie Robinson lower pop cards
Ted Williams seems completely undervalued - But that has always been the case so take heed
Willie Mays and Hank Aaron also seem undervalued - But that is always been the case with them too in my opinion so might never change in our lifetime
1914 crackerjack cards and 1915 crackerjack cards (Not enough to go around)


Just a few that popped into my brain would love to hear your opinions. Thanks!

[Bagwell-1994]

It blows me away how strong and dare I say "over valued" Mickey Mantle has always been. I would love someone more knowledgeable to explain it. He was great, but not as great as numerous other players that are valued far less in collecting.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bagwell-1994

It blows me away how strong and dare I say "over valued" Mickey Mantle has always been. I would love someone more knowledgeable to explain it. He was great, but not as great as numerous other players that are valued far less in collecting.

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Mantle is the perfect storm. Yankees. 50s. Sorry to say this, but white where Mays and Aaron -- both probably better players -- were not. Switch hitting and power/speed things. Folk hero personality and looks. Mystique of playing through pain. And, taking into account the astonishing number of walks, his metrics really are great.

[Bagwell-1994]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mantle is the perfect storm. Yankees. 50s. Sorry to say this, but white where Mays and Aaron -- both probably better players -- were not. Switch hitting and power/speed things. Folk hero personality and looks. Mystique of playing through pain. And, taking into account the astonishing number of walks, his metrics really are great.

I suppose that explains it pretty well. Still puzzling to me though. Stan Musial, Teddy Ball Game, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron. Absolute studs of that era but they pale in comparison to the "Mystique of the Mick".

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[raulus]

Originally Posted by Bagwell-1994

I suppose that explains it pretty well. Still puzzling to me though. Stan Musial, Teddy Ball Game, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron. Absolute studs of that era but they pale in comparison to the "Mystique of the Mick".

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Sometimes it’s not meant to make sense. The market takes on a life of its own, and people pay the piper because they can’t live without it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bagwell-1994

I suppose that explains it pretty well. Still puzzling to me though. Stan Musial, Teddy Ball Game, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron. Absolute studs of that era but they pale in comparison to the "Mystique of the Mick".

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Look at Joe Namath in football. Pete Maravich in basketball. Popularity can be fueled by intangibles.

Conversely there are lots of players who just don't generate as much excitement as their numbers would suggest. But don't fall into the "underrated" trap -- it's not like after decades, that's going to suddenly change.

[ClementeFanOh]

Uniship/Eric-

Interesting question for those who stay on the topic. It seems like you are
well aware of all the obvious individual players and were maybe looking for
some "under the radar" good bets. The 1914/15 CJs are a great start. I'd also
go with the tougher 19th century HOFers in the Old Judge set, and other
even tougher issues, as supply/demand takes hold. Just a guess

Trent King

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Look at Joe Namath in football. Pete Maravich in basketball. Popularity can be fueled by intangibles.

Conversely there are lots of players who just don't generate as much excitement as their numbers would suggest. But don't fall into the "underrated" trap -- it's not like after decades, that's going to suddenly change.

Pretty good point here. And speaking of Namath, is there anyone more overrated in the realm of vintage card prices? I mean, come on . . . Joe Namath. The guy had more interceptions than touchdowns. Once again, it's the New York media factor.

[jackwesq]

Originally Posted by Bagwell-1994

I suppose that explains it pretty well. Still puzzling to me though. Stan Musial, Teddy Ball Game, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron. Absolute studs of that era but they pale in comparison to the "Mystique of the Mick".

Combined, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron and Stan Musial played in a total of 64 World Series games and had a total of 237 at bats / 267 plate appearances.

Mickey Mantle played in a total of 65 World Series games and had a total of 230 at bats / 273 plate appearances.

I'm sure that added to the Mystique of the Mick.

[Bagwell-1994]

Originally Posted by jackwesq

Combined, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron and Stan Musial played in a total of 64 World Series games and had a total of 237 at bats / 267 plate appearances.



Mickey Mantle played in a total of 65 World Series games and had a total of 230 at bats / 273 plate appearances.



I'm sure that added to the Mystique of the Mick.

Duly noted. I think everyone had hammered the points home 10 fold! Makes me want to do a deep dive on Mick now. I honestly didn't know a whole lot about him.

O.P. I apologize for inadvertently helping to turn this thread into a Mantle biography.

My original post point was: Mantle is one of, if not the best, value investments for collectors.

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[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mantle is the perfect storm. Yankees. 50s. Sorry to say this, but white where Mays and Aaron -- both probably better players -- were not. Switch hitting and power/speed things. Folk hero personality and looks. Mystique of playing through pain. And, taking into account the astonishing number of walks, his metrics really are great.

You said it in a nutshell; this explains it probably better than anyone else.

[Exhibitman]

Ideally, Babe Ruth, Jackie Robinson, certain Mantle cards (e.g., 1951B, 1952T), certain cards of top tier HOFers, some key RCs (e.g., Aaron, Mays, Koufax, etc.), Anything of the foregoing players in rare types, so you can set your price when you want to sell.

[Beercan collector]

Turning this into a Mantle appreciation , but who was a dangerous switch hitter before he came along ? Ripper Collins ? Roger Connor ?
And even after he retired there was nobody til Eddie Murray (249th on the OPS list)
(And yeah I looked it up)

[JollyElm]

Every city has an altar on which the great local players are put and worshipped as gods, but the golden New York shrine is just soooooooooo much higher than any other one in the world.

[lumberjack]

Well, start with the word "rookie" attached to any great player. Rookie card, rookie photo, rookie jersey, rookie glove....You get the idea.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mantle is the perfect storm. Yankees. 50s. Sorry to say this, but white where Mays and Aaron -- both probably better players -- were not. Switch hitting and power/speed things. Folk hero personality and looks. Mystique of playing through pain. And, taking into account the astonishing number of walks, his metrics really are great.

While racism was surely more prominent back then, I don't think it's necessary to describe the delta between his prices and other black stars of his day. As someone else pointed out earlier, Stan Musial and Ted Williams were every bit as good as Mantle, and they were white as well. But their prices are below even Mays and Aaron. I think the Yankees factor and World Series performances are sufficient to explain the delta. That and he was well-liked in general. I suppose you could argue that a black athlete may not have had access to the same media privileges that Mantle was given, so in that way it was more challenging for them to build up a fan base, and that by extension having that larger fan base is what allowed his legacy to flourish as well as it has? I don't know. But that feels like a stretch to me. Jackie Robinson and Willie Mays both had plenty of access to the media as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

While racism was surely more prominent back then, I don't think it's necessary to describe the delta between his prices and other black stars of his day. As someone else pointed out earlier, Stan Musial and Ted Williams were every bit as good as Mantle, and they were white as well. But their prices are below even Mays and Aaron. I think the Yankees factor and World Series performances are sufficient to explain the delta. That and he was well-liked in general. I suppose you could argue that a black athlete may not have had access to the same media privileges that Mantle was given, so in that way it was more challenging for them to build up a fan base, and that by extension having that larger fan base is what allowed his legacy to flourish as well as it has? I don't know. But that feels like a stretch to me. Jackie Robinson and Willie Mays both had plenty of access to the media as well.

IMO it's one of many factors, not the sole determinant. But my best guess would be that if Mantle had been Black, it would not have turned out the same for him in the context of his time.

[BioCRN]

Nuances of race and his peers aside, was there anyone with a fist full of cash that Mantle would say "no" to when it came time to ask him to pitch a product?

Dude had crazy mainstream coverage pushing a wide variety of everything.

Bread, photo film, cigarettes, quitting smoking programs, hotdogs, watches, etc etc...beer, obviously...

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

IMO it's one of many factors, not the sole determinant. But my best guess would be that if Mantle had been Black, it would not have turned out the same for him in the context of his time.

I think it's safe to say, baseball card collectors in today's world care nothing about the color of ones skin.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mantle is the perfect storm. Yankees. 50s. Sorry to say this, but white where Mays and Aaron -- both probably better players -- were not. Switch hitting and power/speed things. Folk hero personality and looks. Mystique of playing through pain. And, taking into account the astonishing number of walks, his metrics really are great.

+1 plus sports wise baseball was it, also television was blossoming.

Perhaps the author had it right -

https://www.amazon.com/Last-Boy-Mick.../dp/0060883529

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Bagwell-1994

It blows me away how strong and dare I say "over valued" Mickey Mantle has always been. I would love someone more knowledgeable to explain it. He was great, but not as great as numerous other players that are valued far less in collecting.

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New York is a big market. Yankees have a lot of fans. Fans overvalue playoff performance. Mantle won a lot, and played great (18 WS HRs) during an era when there were no playoffs to navigate through because the winners of the AL and NL went straight to the World Series. He's been a hobby legend ever since.

[bmattioli]

Originally Posted by Bagwell-1994

It blows me away how strong and dare I say "over valued" Mickey Mantle has always been. I would love someone more knowledgeable to explain it. He was great, but not as great as numerous other players that are valued far less in collecting.

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Living on the East Coast 60's-80's then Military Service through 1994 then back to East Coast until now, Mickey Mantle is loved by all. Huge Redsox fans including myself loved the player and idolized him. Grown men cried when he died. He was well loved by all..

[Kco]

Originally Posted by Bagwell-1994

It blows me away how strong and dare I say "over valued" Mickey Mantle has always been. I would love someone more knowledgeable to explain it. He was great, but not as great as numerous other players that are valued far less in collecting.

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Mantle is as much about the Americana as it is the baseball. People who don't know or even really care about Baseball still know EXACTLY who Mickey Mantle is. He's of the same legendary status level as Ruth, and is literally the prototype of "All American" for all the reasons others have pointed out.

[Kco]

As for the best investment guys:

Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Mathewson, Wagner, Walter Johnson, Gehrig. Any rare or very tough pre-war HOFers. Guys like GC Alexander, Cy Young, Mordecai Brown, Cap Anson and so on are also in heavy demand and always will be.

The next bucket is the Clemente & Jackie duo. Always desirable, and value maintains really well. Koufax, Mays & Aaron fall into this camp as well. All Blue Chip names.

The last bucket is the Mantle, DiMaggio and Williams trio. While plentiful examples of all are easily found on the market, the demand is evergreen. Additional value for these guys skyrockets for inscriptions and tough equipment and item types.

[Peter_Spaeth]

See the "Trend in Wagner cards" thread. Part of it is that there was an irrational or even a suspicious run up, but I cannot imagine Ruth, Cobb or Mantle ever falling off a cliff the way Wagner just did.

[JollyElm]

As my dad loved to say about Berra's propensity to swing at bad pitches, "Yogi never saw a pitch out of the strike zone he didn't like."

People seem to be mixing up the terms "appreciated" and "valuable."

Yogi is greatly appreciated by baseball fans, it just doesn't happen to translate into bigger prices for his cards, which is quite nice for us buyers, but not so much for sellers.
There has always been a huuuuuuuuge amount of appreciation for him as a player and a highly-engaging person.

He's not underappreciated, his cards just happen to be undervaluable.

[molenick]

When found in sets of roughly equal rarity, King Kelly is similar to Mantle in that his cards cost more than statistically "better" players in the same sets (such as Brouthers, Keefe, and Clarkson).

Rarity plays a large role in N172 and N173 pricing, so it's harder to gauge. But Kelly is probably the most common N173 HOFer (or close to it) and it has not hurt the price of his cards.

What's interesting is that the pricing seems to be because of Kelly's popularity at the time he played, due to his personality, nickname, book, stage performances, etc...but while many people saw Mantle play (or heard about him from their parents), we are many generations removed from Kelly playing, and his popularity seems to persist (at least as reflected by pricing).

[GaryPassamonte]

Originally Posted by molenick

When found in sets of roughly equal rarity, King Kelly is similar to Mantle in that his cards cost more than statistically "better" players in the same sets (such as Brouthers, Keefe, and Clarkson).

Rarity plays a large role in N172 and N173 pricing, so it's harder to gauge. But Kelly is probably the most common N173 HOFer (or close to it) and it has not hurt the price of his cards.

What's interesting is that the pricing seems to be because of Kelly's popularity at the time he played, due to his personality, nickname, book, stage performances, etc...but while many people saw Mantle play (or heard about him from their parents), we are many generations removed from Kelly playing, and his popularity seems to persist (at least as reflected by pricing).

Players who are "bad boys" or those who have "big" personalities seem to often sell for higher prices than other great players of their time. Kelly is an excellent example. Cobb, J. Jackson, Ruth, Mantle, and, to some extent, T. Williams also fit the bill. Unfortunately, being a nice guy is usually not a positive in regards to card pricing. For example, Musial was one of the nicest people in baseball and was also one of the greatest of all time, but his card prices don't reflect this. He wasn't flashy enough.

Hi, Michael.

[Leon]

I would pretty much go with this list....

Originally Posted by Kco

As for the best investment guys:

Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Mathewson, Wagner, Walter Johnson, Gehrig. Any rare or very tough pre-war HOFers. Guys like GC Alexander, Cy Young, Mordecai Brown, Cap Anson and so on are also in heavy demand and always will be.

The next bucket is the Clemente & Jackie duo. Always desirable, and value maintains really well. Koufax, Mays & Aaron fall into this camp as well. All Blue Chip names.

The last bucket is the Mantle, DiMaggio and Williams trio. While plentiful examples of all are easily found on the market, the demand is evergreen. Additional value for these guys skyrockets for inscriptions and tough equipment and item types.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's interesting only one person mentioned Aaron. If future generations reject Bonds' record, the all time HR leader is going to be Aaron, as the likelihood of anyone surpassing him has to be pretty low.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Leon

I would pretty much go with this list....

Or in another way of saying this. The best conditioned card of the best player (s) at the best price point you can afford.

That was the investment advice I got back in the day and still holds true today.

IMHO everything else is noise

Rich

[Peter_Spaeth]

Same answer I would always give: Ruth, Cobb and Mantle. The "undervalued" game is not worth playing IMO.

[gonefishin]

Maybe vintage Japanese cards. Of course I don't know, but as MLB studies their long-term plans to expand their international market I would think Japan would be at the top of the list. If true, the demand for Japanese cards would rise significantly. How much? Who knows. Take a look at how the landscape has changed since Ichiro came on board in 2001. Now with Ohtani, picture the landscape in 5 years.

Just a couple of thoughts.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by gonefishin

Maybe vintage Japanese cards. Of course I don't know, but as MLB studies their long-term plans to expand their international market I would think Japan would be at the top of the list. If true, the demand for Japanese cards would rise significantly. How much? Who knows. Take a look at how the landscape has changed since Ichiro came on board in 2001. Now with Ohtani, picture the landscape in 5 years.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Shhhh

[Snowman]

As much as I love doing it myself, and cannot follow my own advise, I would tell someone to avoid set building is they want to collect as an investment long term. Younger generations simply don't care about it. The hobby has changed. I wouldn't buy T206 commons, that's for sure.

Focus on tier 1 MLB players and Negro League stars. And focus on the best eye appeal examples you can find. Avoid lower tier HOFers and commons.

[FrankWakefield]

Cards from when the player was a player...

Wagner
Cobb
Ruth
W Johnson
W Mays
Mathewson
T206 Demmitt StL
T206 O'Hara StL
GC Alexander
W Spahn

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by uniship

Curious your thoughts on the best players and or cards to invest in for vintage as of this time in our history September 2024.

Here’s my two cents - would love to hear yours.

Joe Jackson
Josh Gibson (what little there is)
Early Negro league players that were the first major league baseball players
Jackie Robinson lower pop cards
Ted Williams seems completely undervalued - But that has always been the case so take heed
Willie Mays and Hank Aaron also seem undervalued - But that is always been the case with them too in my opinion so might never change in our lifetime
1914 crackerjack cards and 1915 crackerjack cards (Not enough to go around)


Just a few that popped into my brain would love to hear your opinions. Thanks!

Eric it is an interesting question that you pose but I was not sure if you were seeking the guys who are undervalued or guys who are the best investments because those to me are two different concepts. Undervalued does not always make it a good investment.

That said I think that Foxx and Frank Robinson are undervalued but not sure they are great investments. I think great investments are players who remain popular consistently year over year. Your list has some great names for both types of approaches. There are lots of players who might see spikes in their cards but then interests vanishes.

Personally I mainly buy what I like. I am cognizant of whether it is a good use of money but that is not usually the driving force.

[Exhibitman]

Hellmann is one of my favorite trivia answers: who hit over .390 four times but only once over .400? He’s the Maxwell Smart of baseball: missed it by that much.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Hellmann is one of my favorite trivia answers: who hit over .390 four times but only once over .400? He’s the Maxwell Smart of baseball: missed it by that much.

At least Heilmann did attain the elusive .400 average for a season. Al Simmons never did, despite hitting .381 and .390 over full seasons.

I would say both players are under-appreciated, but I think it will remain that way.

[packs]

Heinie Manush will forever be the most anonymous 330 career hitter too.

[Beercan collector]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

At least Heilmann did attain the elusive .400 average for a season. Al Simmons never did, despite hitting .381 and .390 over full seasons.

I would say both players are under-appreciated, but I think it will remain that way.

1925 Heilmann leads the league with a .393 batting average and ties for the lead with 134 RBIs and led the league in good old WAR 7.0 ,
World Series winner Roger Pekingpaugh wins MVP with 64 RBIs and the batting average .294 - Heilmann finished fourth in the voting

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

1925 Heilmann leads the league with a .393 batting average and ties for the lead with 134 RBIs and led the league in good old WAR 7.0 ,
World Series winner Roger Pekingpaugh wins MVP with 64 RBIs and the batting average .294 - Heilmann finished fourth in the voting

And Peckinpaugh only appeared in 126 games and had 422 at bats. Its like like they put all the names of the players on the pennant winning team in a hat, and picked the winner at random.

[Gorditadogg]

This is the stupidest conversation ever on Net54. And that is a very high bar.

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[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by uniship

Curious your thoughts on the best players and or cards to invest in for vintage as of this time in our history September 2024.

Here’s my two cents - would love to hear yours.

Joe Jackson
Josh Gibson (what little there is)
Early Negro league players that were the first major league baseball players
Jackie Robinson lower pop cards
Ted Williams seems completely undervalued - But that has always been the case so take heed
Willie Mays and Hank Aaron also seem undervalued - But that is always been the case with them too in my opinion so might never change in our lifetime
1914 crackerjack cards and 1915 crackerjack cards (Not enough to go around)

Just a few that popped into my brain would love to hear your opinions. Thanks!

Here's my list. I call them the Top Tier 1 "Burrito". In no particular order...

1. Jackie Robinson
2. Babe Ruth
3. Ty Cobb
4. Lou Gehrig
5. Mickey Mantle
6. Honus Wagner
7. Joe Jackson
8. Willie Mays
9. Hank Aaron
10. Sandy Koufax
11. Walter Johnson
12. Cy Young
13. Joe Dimaggio
14. Ted Williams
15. Roberto Clemente

Top 2 Burrito

16. Yogi Berra
17. Roy Campanella
18. Christy Mathewson
19. Rogers Hornsby
20. Satchel Paige

etc

I have 4 tiers to my personal Burrito Principle....I'm pretty laser focused on the top tier at present and have filled out tiers 3 & 4 already.

Happy Collecting.

[Beercan collector]

C’mon Musials at least a burrito 2 😐

[abmchenry]

Wow, this thread went off the rails a little bit. It's hard to get a handle on all of his early cards and their relative values, but I think Sadaharu Oh is a pretty good investment right now. Legendary career, all with one team, all-time global HR leader, and then a long post-playing career as well. Maybe Ohtani's wild success in MLB will create some uplift for other less recognized (in the US) Japanese players.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

C’mon Musials at least a burrito 2 ��

you have to draw the line somewhere. I always liked Stan but he's in the third tier of the Burrito Principle or 2nd tier!

I actually love the guy.