What are the best vintage, investment-type players in your opinion?

[Bagwell-1994]

It blows me away how strong and dare I say "over valued" Mickey Mantle has always been. I would love someone more knowledgeable to explain it. He was great, but not as great as numerous other players that are valued far less in collecting.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bagwell-1994

It blows me away how strong and dare I say "over valued" Mickey Mantle has always been. I would love someone more knowledgeable to explain it. He was great, but not as great as numerous other players that are valued far less in collecting.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

Mantle is the perfect storm. Yankees. 50s. Sorry to say this, but white where Mays and Aaron -- both probably better players -- were not. Switch hitting and power/speed things. Folk hero personality and looks. Mystique of playing through pain. And, taking into account the astonishing number of walks, his metrics really are great.

[Bagwell-1994]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mantle is the perfect storm. Yankees. 50s. Sorry to say this, but white where Mays and Aaron -- both probably better players -- were not. Switch hitting and power/speed things. Folk hero personality and looks. Mystique of playing through pain. And, taking into account the astonishing number of walks, his metrics really are great.

I suppose that explains it pretty well. Still puzzling to me though. Stan Musial, Teddy Ball Game, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron. Absolute studs of that era but they pale in comparison to the "Mystique of the Mick".

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Bagwell-1994

I suppose that explains it pretty well. Still puzzling to me though. Stan Musial, Teddy Ball Game, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron. Absolute studs of that era but they pale in comparison to the "Mystique of the Mick".

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

Sometimes it’s not meant to make sense. The market takes on a life of its own, and people pay the piper because they can’t live without it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bagwell-1994

I suppose that explains it pretty well. Still puzzling to me though. Stan Musial, Teddy Ball Game, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron. Absolute studs of that era but they pale in comparison to the "Mystique of the Mick".

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

Look at Joe Namath in football. Pete Maravich in basketball. Popularity can be fueled by intangibles.

Conversely there are lots of players who just don't generate as much excitement as their numbers would suggest. But don't fall into the "underrated" trap -- it's not like after decades, that's going to suddenly change.

[ClementeFanOh]

Uniship/Eric-

Interesting question for those who stay on the topic. It seems like you are
well aware of all the obvious individual players and were maybe looking for
some "under the radar" good bets. The 1914/15 CJs are a great start. I'd also
go with the tougher 19th century HOFers in the Old Judge set, and other
even tougher issues, as supply/demand takes hold. Just a guess

Trent King

[Rhotchkiss]

I claim ignorance on pre 1900.

The inaugural 5:

Cobb
Wagner
Ruth
Mathewson
Johnson

Cy Young
Joe Jackson
Jackie Robinson
Mantle
Mays

Thorpe

Sets - t206, 1914 CJ, E107, T3, E94, W600, Rose Co

Undervalued cards, IMO

T204 Johnson
Tip Top Wagner
1925 Exhibits Gehrig
Dietsche Cobb, throwing and batting

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I claim ignorance on pre 1900.

The inaugural 5:

Cobb
Wagner
Ruth
Mathewson
Johnson

Cy Young
Joe Jackson
Jackie Robinson
Mantle
Mays

Thorpe

Sets - t206, 1914 CJ, E107, T3, E94, W600, Rose Co

Undervalued cards, IMO

T204 Johnson
Tip Top Wagner
1925 Exhibits Gehrig
Dietsche Cobb, throwing and batting

+1

Good list, Ryan.

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Look at Joe Namath in football. Pete Maravich in basketball. Popularity can be fueled by intangibles.

Conversely there are lots of players who just don't generate as much excitement as their numbers would suggest. But don't fall into the "underrated" trap -- it's not like after decades, that's going to suddenly change.

Pretty good point here. And speaking of Namath, is there anyone more overrated in the realm of vintage card prices? I mean, come on . . . Joe Namath. The guy had more interceptions than touchdowns. Once again, it's the New York media factor.

[jackwesq]

Originally Posted by Bagwell-1994

I suppose that explains it pretty well. Still puzzling to me though. Stan Musial, Teddy Ball Game, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron. Absolute studs of that era but they pale in comparison to the "Mystique of the Mick".

Combined, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron and Stan Musial played in a total of 64 World Series games and had a total of 237 at bats / 267 plate appearances.

Mickey Mantle played in a total of 65 World Series games and had a total of 230 at bats / 273 plate appearances.

I'm sure that added to the Mystique of the Mick.

[Bagwell-1994]

Originally Posted by jackwesq

Combined, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron and Stan Musial played in a total of 64 World Series games and had a total of 237 at bats / 267 plate appearances.



Mickey Mantle played in a total of 65 World Series games and had a total of 230 at bats / 273 plate appearances.



I'm sure that added to the Mystique of the Mick.

Duly noted. I think everyone had hammered the points home 10 fold! Makes me want to do a deep dive on Mick now. I honestly didn't know a whole lot about him.

O.P. I apologize for inadvertently helping to turn this thread into a Mantle biography.

My original post point was: Mantle is one of, if not the best, value investments for collectors.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[iwantitiwinit]

Pretty simple. Chase scarcity and or sets with achievable numbers of subjects. E cards. E93, E95, E103, etc.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Bagwell-1994

Duly noted. I think everyone had hammered the points home 10 fold! Makes me want to do a deep dive on Mick now. I honestly didn't know a whole lot about him.

O.P. I apologize for inadvertently helping to turn this thread into a Mantle biography.

My original post point was: Mantle is one of, if not the best, value investments for collectors.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

I liked, "The Last Boy" by Jane Levy.

Listen to Bob Shepard announce him coming to the plate. The way the name rolls off the tongue.

Watch his highlights, pour over his stats. Let's not forget his TORN ACL in his rookie season that never was operated on he played through his entire career. Players today are babies compared to back in the day. They simply PLAYED. Listen to his simple country drawl. We tried to imitate it. He was such a flawed person, but in the end he seeked and found redemption I think? Kinda a great human interest story really. Watch his Eulogy by Bob Costas.

What about Trout, the guy they compared him with? He wouldn't even DH with a sore knee this year. Hit .220 and that was considered HOT before the sprain. Blew off his teammates to have a "6 week" surgery, when they said he could DH. They despise him whereas the Mick's teammates LOVED him. Anyone who has followed the CHY NA Doll knew he wouldn't come back. Bam! a second knee surgery. Shocker. No, very predictable. 5 years missed in his prime. Yea he was great for a very short period, but I choose to forget the Splashing Trout and his 10,478 rookie cards, PSA 10 1 of 1's.

I don't see Trout on anyone's "investment list" but Mantle is on everyone's. While I had the pleasure to watch trout play in person dozens of time, sure he was great when he was in the lineup. Still I have never owned a Trout card. I have 99% of every Mantle card. That's just me I guess? I buy what I liked.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Trout is an extreme example, but even so, it seems that despite all the advances in surgical techniques, diagnostics, and training/conditioning, today's players are hurt more often, and more easily.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mantle is the perfect storm. Yankees. 50s. Sorry to say this, but white where Mays and Aaron -- both probably better players -- were not. Switch hitting and power/speed things. Folk hero personality and looks. Mystique of playing through pain. And, taking into account the astonishing number of walks, his metrics really are great.

You said it in a nutshell; this explains it probably better than anyone else.

[Exhibitman]

Ideally, Babe Ruth, Jackie Robinson, certain Mantle cards (e.g., 1951B, 1952T), certain cards of top tier HOFers, some key RCs (e.g., Aaron, Mays, Koufax, etc.), Anything of the foregoing players in rare types, so you can set your price when you want to sell.

[Beercan collector]

Turning this into a Mantle appreciation , but who was a dangerous switch hitter before he came along ? Ripper Collins ? Roger Connor ?
And even after he retired there was nobody til Eddie Murray (249th on the OPS list)
(And yeah I looked it up)

[JollyElm]

Every city has an altar on which the great local players are put and worshipped as gods, but the golden New York shrine is just soooooooooo much higher than any other one in the world.

[lumberjack]

Well, start with the word "rookie" attached to any great player. Rookie card, rookie photo, rookie jersey, rookie glove....You get the idea.

[oldjudge]

Pre-1900 Buck Ewing, John Ward, Ed Delahanty, Albert Spalding
Post 1900. Thorpe, Alexander, DiMaggio

[Yoda]

I was fortunate enough to live in the New York area growing up in the 50's and see many games with my Dad at Ebbets, Polo Grounds or the old Yankee Stadium.
To understand Mickey's Zeus-like status, you had to see him play, which I did. He had a certain mystique; grace in the field, roaming center field, and when he came to bat, the crowd hushed in anticipation of might happen. I still can remember when he hit 2 HR, one from each side of the plate against the Indians.
How any of this translates to his card values, I am unsure, but he sure was something special.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mantle is the perfect storm. Yankees. 50s. Sorry to say this, but white where Mays and Aaron -- both probably better players -- were not. Switch hitting and power/speed things. Folk hero personality and looks. Mystique of playing through pain. And, taking into account the astonishing number of walks, his metrics really are great.

While racism was surely more prominent back then, I don't think it's necessary to describe the delta between his prices and other black stars of his day. As someone else pointed out earlier, Stan Musial and Ted Williams were every bit as good as Mantle, and they were white as well. But their prices are below even Mays and Aaron. I think the Yankees factor and World Series performances are sufficient to explain the delta. That and he was well-liked in general. I suppose you could argue that a black athlete may not have had access to the same media privileges that Mantle was given, so in that way it was more challenging for them to build up a fan base, and that by extension having that larger fan base is what allowed his legacy to flourish as well as it has? I don't know. But that feels like a stretch to me. Jackie Robinson and Willie Mays both had plenty of access to the media as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

While racism was surely more prominent back then, I don't think it's necessary to describe the delta between his prices and other black stars of his day. As someone else pointed out earlier, Stan Musial and Ted Williams were every bit as good as Mantle, and they were white as well. But their prices are below even Mays and Aaron. I think the Yankees factor and World Series performances are sufficient to explain the delta. That and he was well-liked in general. I suppose you could argue that a black athlete may not have had access to the same media privileges that Mantle was given, so in that way it was more challenging for them to build up a fan base, and that by extension having that larger fan base is what allowed his legacy to flourish as well as it has? I don't know. But that feels like a stretch to me. Jackie Robinson and Willie Mays both had plenty of access to the media as well.

IMO it's one of many factors, not the sole determinant. But my best guess would be that if Mantle had been Black, it would not have turned out the same for him in the context of his time.

[BioCRN]

Nuances of race and his peers aside, was there anyone with a fist full of cash that Mantle would say "no" to when it came time to ask him to pitch a product?

Dude had crazy mainstream coverage pushing a wide variety of everything.

Bread, photo film, cigarettes, quitting smoking programs, hotdogs, watches, etc etc...beer, obviously...

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

IMO it's one of many factors, not the sole determinant. But my best guess would be that if Mantle had been Black, it would not have turned out the same for him in the context of his time.

I think it's safe to say, baseball card collectors in today's world care nothing about the color of ones skin.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I think it's safe to say, baseball card collectors in today's world care nothing about the color of ones skin.

I agree, and of course that is as it should be, but we are now taking as a given Mantle's status as the most iconic post-war player, maybe ever, which to some extent has been handed down. So I don't think we're saying different things. If the hobby collectively had a completely clean slate to write on, does it still really rank Mantle above (far above) everyone else?

I grew up in the 60s. It was a given that Mantle was godlike. My friends and I loved Mays too, but it wasn't the same. You opened packs wanting Mantle above everyone else. To a large extent that engrained thinking lives on.

[Kutcher55]

Yastrzemski.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I agree, and of course that is as it should be, but we are now taking as a given Mantle's status as the most iconic post-war player, maybe ever, which to some extent has been handed down. So I don't think we're saying different things. If the hobby collectively had a completely clean slate to write on, does it still really rank Mantle above (far above) everyone else?

I grew up in the 60s. It was a given that Mantle was godlike. To a large extent that engrained thinking lives on.

I'm a West Coast guy, to me Willie Mays is the greatest post war player and along with Cobb is arguably the GOAT. That's why I own a Mays rookie and not a Mantle rookie, I'll buy a 51B Mantle at some point but it's pretty far down the list. But that has nothing to do with ones skin pigment.

Personally, I think the race argument is tired and outdated.

If somebody likes Mantle more than me, great, I'm a Mays guy. Who cares what the color of their skin was when it comes to collecting baseball cards.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mantle is the perfect storm. Yankees. 50s. Sorry to say this, but white where Mays and Aaron -- both probably better players -- were not. Switch hitting and power/speed things. Folk hero personality and looks. Mystique of playing through pain. And, taking into account the astonishing number of walks, his metrics really are great.

+1 plus sports wise baseball was it, also television was blossoming.

Perhaps the author had it right -

https://www.amazon.com/Last-Boy-Mick.../dp/0060883529

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Bagwell-1994

It blows me away how strong and dare I say "over valued" Mickey Mantle has always been. I would love someone more knowledgeable to explain it. He was great, but not as great as numerous other players that are valued far less in collecting.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

New York is a big market. Yankees have a lot of fans. Fans overvalue playoff performance. Mantle won a lot, and played great (18 WS HRs) during an era when there were no playoffs to navigate through because the winners of the AL and NL went straight to the World Series. He's been a hobby legend ever since.

[bmattioli]

Originally Posted by Bagwell-1994

It blows me away how strong and dare I say "over valued" Mickey Mantle has always been. I would love someone more knowledgeable to explain it. He was great, but not as great as numerous other players that are valued far less in collecting.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

Living on the East Coast 60's-80's then Military Service through 1994 then back to East Coast until now, Mickey Mantle is loved by all. Huge Redsox fans including myself loved the player and idolized him. Grown men cried when he died. He was well loved by all..

[Kco]

Originally Posted by Bagwell-1994

It blows me away how strong and dare I say "over valued" Mickey Mantle has always been. I would love someone more knowledgeable to explain it. He was great, but not as great as numerous other players that are valued far less in collecting.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

Mantle is as much about the Americana as it is the baseball. People who don't know or even really care about Baseball still know EXACTLY who Mickey Mantle is. He's of the same legendary status level as Ruth, and is literally the prototype of "All American" for all the reasons others have pointed out.

[Kco]

As for the best investment guys:

Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Mathewson, Wagner, Walter Johnson, Gehrig. Any rare or very tough pre-war HOFers. Guys like GC Alexander, Cy Young, Mordecai Brown, Cap Anson and so on are also in heavy demand and always will be.

The next bucket is the Clemente & Jackie duo. Always desirable, and value maintains really well. Koufax, Mays & Aaron fall into this camp as well. All Blue Chip names.

The last bucket is the Mantle, DiMaggio and Williams trio. While plentiful examples of all are easily found on the market, the demand is evergreen. Additional value for these guys skyrockets for inscriptions and tough equipment and item types.

[Peter_Spaeth]

See the "Trend in Wagner cards" thread. Part of it is that there was an irrational or even a suspicious run up, but I cannot imagine Ruth, Cobb or Mantle ever falling off a cliff the way Wagner just did.

[JollyElm]

As my dad loved to say about Berra's propensity to swing at bad pitches, "Yogi never saw a pitch out of the strike zone he didn't like."

People seem to be mixing up the terms "appreciated" and "valuable."

Yogi is greatly appreciated by baseball fans, it just doesn't happen to translate into bigger prices for his cards, which is quite nice for us buyers, but not so much for sellers.
There has always been a huuuuuuuuge amount of appreciation for him as a player and a highly-engaging person.

He's not underappreciated, his cards just happen to be undervaluable.

[molenick]

When found in sets of roughly equal rarity, King Kelly is similar to Mantle in that his cards cost more than statistically "better" players in the same sets (such as Brouthers, Keefe, and Clarkson).

Rarity plays a large role in N172 and N173 pricing, so it's harder to gauge. But Kelly is probably the most common N173 HOFer (or close to it) and it has not hurt the price of his cards.

What's interesting is that the pricing seems to be because of Kelly's popularity at the time he played, due to his personality, nickname, book, stage performances, etc...but while many people saw Mantle play (or heard about him from their parents), we are many generations removed from Kelly playing, and his popularity seems to persist (at least as reflected by pricing).

[GaryPassamonte]

Originally Posted by molenick

When found in sets of roughly equal rarity, King Kelly is similar to Mantle in that his cards cost more than statistically "better" players in the same sets (such as Brouthers, Keefe, and Clarkson).

Rarity plays a large role in N172 and N173 pricing, so it's harder to gauge. But Kelly is probably the most common N173 HOFer (or close to it) and it has not hurt the price of his cards.

What's interesting is that the pricing seems to be because of Kelly's popularity at the time he played, due to his personality, nickname, book, stage performances, etc...but while many people saw Mantle play (or heard about him from their parents), we are many generations removed from Kelly playing, and his popularity seems to persist (at least as reflected by pricing).

Players who are "bad boys" or those who have "big" personalities seem to often sell for higher prices than other great players of their time. Kelly is an excellent example. Cobb, J. Jackson, Ruth, Mantle, and, to some extent, T. Williams also fit the bill. Unfortunately, being a nice guy is usually not a positive in regards to card pricing. For example, Musial was one of the nicest people in baseball and was also one of the greatest of all time, but his card prices don't reflect this. He wasn't flashy enough.

Hi, Michael.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

Players who are "bad boys" or those who have "big" personalities seem to often sell for higher prices than other great players of their time. Kelly is an excellent example. Cobb, J. Jackson, Ruth, Mantle, and, to some extent, T. Williams also fit the bill. Unfortunately, being a nice guy is usually not a positive in regards to card pricing. For example, Musial was one of the nicest people in baseball and was also one of the greatest of all time, but his card prices don't reflect this. He wasn't flashy enough.

Hi, Michael.

Was a bad word ever written about Gehrig, Mathewson or Walter Johnson? Their prices are very strong. And Jackson I think sells not because he was bad, but because most feel he was wronged.

[molenick]

I think we can find examples of players commanding higher prices than expected for a number of different reasons. The Black Sox and Hal Chase because they were infamous/bad boys, Titus because he had a moustache when others did not, Ten Million because he had a cool name, Moonlight Graham because he was in a book and movie, Halla because he had a cool pose, Whitney because he had a dog, Zernial because he had six balls, Mossi because he had big ears, various mascot poses, etc.

[Leon]

I would pretty much go with this list....

Originally Posted by Kco

As for the best investment guys:

Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Mathewson, Wagner, Walter Johnson, Gehrig. Any rare or very tough pre-war HOFers. Guys like GC Alexander, Cy Young, Mordecai Brown, Cap Anson and so on are also in heavy demand and always will be.

The next bucket is the Clemente & Jackie duo. Always desirable, and value maintains really well. Koufax, Mays & Aaron fall into this camp as well. All Blue Chip names.

The last bucket is the Mantle, DiMaggio and Williams trio. While plentiful examples of all are easily found on the market, the demand is evergreen. Additional value for these guys skyrockets for inscriptions and tough equipment and item types.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's interesting only one person mentioned Aaron. If future generations reject Bonds' record, the all time HR leader is going to be Aaron, as the likelihood of anyone surpassing him has to be pretty low.

[Beercan collector]

Ruth 1st Mantle 2nd ,
Good grief ,
Five years after we save the world we get the All American boy that’s a switchhitting freak like no one‘s ever seen playing for the largest fan base in baseball , like Ruth he wins seven World Series with them while hitting more World Series home runs than anyone .. ever .
Mantle is near the top of the Hobby Where he belongs

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's interesting only one person mentioned Aaron. If future generations reject Bonds' record, the all time HR leader is going to be Aaron, as the likelihood of anyone surpassing him has to be pretty low.

Or if MLB decides the Indianapolis Clowns were a major league team and they add his 8 Negro League HRs to his 755 giving him 763 total.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Or if MLB decides the Indianapolis Clowns were a major league team and they add his 8 Negro League HRs to his 755 giving him 763 total.

Why did they not get counted when all of Josh Gibson's stats were merged?

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's interesting only one person mentioned Aaron. If future generations reject Bonds' record, the all time HR leader is going to be Aaron, as the likelihood of anyone surpassing him has to be pretty low.

I would have thought that Hank Aaron has value for these reasons as well. I always wondered why he seemed undervalued. His numbers are awesome. He also played against a Jackie Robinson-esque social backdrop, which should heighten his historical value to the game. This said, his Topps rookie doesn't seem that rare. The 54 Johnston rookie is much rarer, but that one doesn't seem to get a lot of hobby love relative to its scarcity.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Leon

I would pretty much go with this list....

Or in another way of saying this. The best conditioned card of the best player (s) at the best price point you can afford.

That was the investment advice I got back in the day and still holds true today.

IMHO everything else is noise

Rich

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Or in another way of saying this. The best conditioned card of the best player (s) at the best price point you can afford.

That was the investment advice I got back in the day and still holds true today.

IMHO everything else is noise

Rich

Always sage advice Rich