T206 Print Groups-A Quick Overview

[Abravefan11]

This information is a little deeper than some collectors wish to go, but I thought I would start this thread for those that may wish to discuss this topic. For the time being I’ll try and keep it general and we can break anything specific down into more detail if anyone would like to.

The six print groups that make up the T206 set are the foundation for understanding how the set was produced and which subjects are possible with which backs.

There are four main print groups.

Print Group 1
Originally 150 subjects
5 subjects were added during production of this group.
3 subjects had a team change during this groups production. (Brown, Dahlen,Elberfeld)
1 error (Magie) was corrected.

This group was used to print all of the 150 Series backs. After the printing of that series was completed, the same group was printed with 350 Series backs. This group was then discontinued and printing for the next group began.

Print Group 2
Originally 200 subjects
2 subjects had a team change during this groups production. (Demmitt,O’Hara)

This group completed the expansion of the set to the advertised 350 subjects. At the conclusion of their production, this group was discontinued and printing of the next group began.

Print Group 3
Originally 60 subjects
2 subjects had a team change during this groups production. (Klienow, F. Smith)
1 error (Doyle N.Y. Nat’l) was corrected.

This group was the beginning of the expansion to the sets advertised 460 subjects. However, prior to the other 460 subjects being added, this group was printed with 350 series backs. After these 350 series printings the next group was added for the sets final expansion.

Print group 4
46 subjects
No errors or team changes.

This group was added with group 3 and together printed with 460 Series backs. This completed the sets expansion to the advertised 460 subjects.

There are two groups that are classified as supplemental. This because a close look shows that they are groups in their own right and don’t follow the series progression like the other four groups.

Print Group 5
6 subjects

This is a group of six subjects referred to as the super prints. They were first printed with print group 2 and continued being supplements for the remainder of the set with groups 3 and 4.

Print Group 6
48 subjects

This is the group known as the southern leaguers. This group was printed during the production of group 1, but not part of that print group.

Again, this is just a general overview, if anyone would like to discuss something in more detail it would be great.

[Leon]

Nice thread Tim. While I am not a specific T206 Collector I have been going through 500 or so T206s the last few days. I have seen quite a few Southern Leaguers. I have a couple questions, and the first one might be stupid.

1. Is the Southern Association the same thing as the Southern League? (I know, stupid question)

2. How scarce are the SL'ers in relation to other players? I think in this 500'ish grouping there is an inordinately high percentage. I don't know what that is right now but it seems like there are quite a few. Any thoughts?

And btw, most of the grouping is Piedmont (around 300), Old Mill (around 120), Hindu (around 20), Red Hindu (1) Sweep Caporal (around 20), EPDG 3-4......as well as there are around 50 T210s (almost all from series 3 but some from 2) and about 30-40 T205s......I think all with Piedmont backs. These were found in Irving TX....

[sdkammeyer]

Originally Posted by Leon

Nice thread Tim. While I am not a specific T206 Collector I have been going through 500 or so T206s the last few days. I have seen quite a few Southern Leaguers. I have a couple questions, and the first one might be stupid.

1. Is the Southern Association the same thing as the Southern League? (I know, stupid question)

2. How scarce are the SL'ers in relation to other players? I think in this 500'ish grouping there is an inordinately high percentage. I don't know what that is right now but it seems like there are quite a few. Any thoughts?

And btw, most of the grouping is Piedmont (around 300), Old Mill (around 120), Hindu (around 20), Red Hindu (1) Sweep Caporal (around 20), EPDG 3-4......as well as there are around 50 T210s (almost all from series 3 but some from 2) and about 30-40 T205s......I think all with Piedmont backs. These were found in Irving TX....

shall i get my checkbook out now or is this going to be strictly a cash transaction??

great thread. i have it bookmarked. i'm sure there will be tons of other good info added as well.

[MVSNYC]

Great post, Tim! can you attach some dates to the various print groups?

Leon, i am sure Tim will jump in here, but SLers are definitely rarer then commons and even most HOFers. they were simply printed over a much shorter period of time, and available only regionally (the south). i am sure the high number of SLers in your group is due to where they were found (Texas).

[Abravefan11]

Leon-

The southern league subjects were from four leagues.

Southern Association
Virginia League
South Atlantic League
Texas League

And Mike answered your second question in the post above.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Great post, Tim! can you attach some dates to the various print groups?

Definitive dates of when one group stopped and another began aren't known. Below is a general timeline based on what we do know, but it's by no means meant to be exact.

[t206blogcom]

Tim - Great post, thanks.

Leon - Keep me in mind if you have T206 Southern Leaguers for sale, especially Hindu backs!

[sb1]

These will all be offered in the next auction. lots of SL's and many of them are Hindu backs, Stay tuned for details.

[dealme]

Nice summary Tim. This helped answer some of my questions after my first time through Inside T206

[MVSNYC]

Tim, that chart really paints a clear picture, awesome, thanks!

[Pat R]

0 T206Timeline.jpg


I think we can move print group 1 back a month or two if the information in this newspaper clip I found about the court proceedings is accurate.

Baseball pictures put in packs The_News_and_Observer_Thu__Jun_22__1911_.jpg

[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Definitive dates of when one group stopped and another began aren't known. Below is a general timeline based on what we do know, but it's by no means meant to be exact.

The Harry McIntyre BKN/CHI card in Group 2 could not have been printed until at least April 1910 since his trade to the Cubs occurred on April 13.

Of course knowing N54 collectors, I suspect one of you will flash me a BKN-only version to prove me wrong.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

The Harry McIntyre BKN/CHI card in Group 2 could not have been printed until at least April 1910 since his trade to the Cubs occurred on April 13.

Of course knowing N54 collectors, I suspect one of you will flash me a BKN-only version to prove me wrong.

Jason, Harry McIntyre (BKN/CHI) is print group 3.

[DixieBaseball]

I have seen quite a few Southern Leaguers. I have a couple questions, and the first one might be stupid.

1. Is the Southern Association the same thing as the Southern League? (I know, stupid question)

Leon - Definitely not a stupid question-actually a very good question. The answer is yes and no. I think the reverse of the Old Mill T206 SL card is the reason for the confusion. It cleary states on the reverse of any of the T206 SLer card "Baseball Series Selection from Texas, South Atlantic, Virginia, and Southern Leagues." The Southern League started in 1885 and ended around 1900, and the Southern Association was officially formed around 1900. Essentially many of the same Southern cities/teams were represented in both leagues, and this is where the confusion comes in.... Although they are referred to as Southern Leaguer's (1909-11 time frame), they are technically Southern Association players/teams. Due to verbiage on the reverse of the OM card, and the ease of the words Southern Leaguer as opposed to Southern Association player, we collector's call them Southern Leaguer's, but technically they are Southern Associationer's ! (See 1908 Southern Association Champions PC which includes Harry Bay, Bill Bernhard, and Hub Perdue, 3 of the "SLer's" from the T206 OM group) - So, technically they are not SLer's, but this is what the collecting universe calls them.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by NashvilleBaseball

I have seen quite a few Southern Leaguers. I have a couple questions, and the first one might be stupid.

1. Is the Southern Association the same thing as the Southern League? (I know, stupid question)

Leon - Definitely not a stupid question-actually a very good question.

Thanks Jeremy. I have seen the 2 names used almost interchangeably and that is why I asked. It was a question that sounded like I should have known though . I appreciate your very good explanation. And I should mention, I also appreciate the very in depth discussion of something I happen to be sorting through at this moment (Piedmonts, Hindu's, SL'ers, T210s etc...)

[atx840]

Tim. Takes some time to wrap your head around these groupings.

Do you think they printed the P150 with 150 subjects with one being the Magie, then this was fixed and a print of the Sov 150 series was run and discontinued? then a second new P150 and introduction SC150s series with the 3 additions (Plank, Wagner, Crawford) printed?

Lots of questions around why add these three then, why pull Wagner after a short run? Why was Plank pulled before any other 350 series backs were printed other then SC f30..we may never know the answers.

What I am interested in is could Planks sheet mates have been reduced in production numbers on, say, sc350f25 by having the entire sheet thrown out vs replacing his plate? Do we see any scarce f25 backed players out there like Plank?

Thoughts on the elite eight/nine and why they only have a P350 series back? Sheetmates for a wrongly printed back and pulled early?

Fun stuff..thanks for sharing!

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by atx840

Tim. Takes some time to wrap your head around these groupings.

It does take time. I've had the pleasure of discussing these groups at length with several long time collectors of the set. It wasn't something that made sense to them right away, but once everything was understood I believe the sets composition became easier to understand.

Originally Posted by atx840

Do you think they printed the P150 with 150 subjects with one being the Magie, then this was fixed and a print of the Sov 150 series was run and discontinued? then a second new P150 and introduction SC150s series with the 3 additions (Plank, Wagner, Crawford) printed?

Yes. The Magie error was corrected during the first printing of the Piedmont 150 backs, prior to the printing of the Sovereign 150. The Sovereign 150 back was only printed with the original 150 subjects that began the set. The five subjects that were added later were not printed with Sovereign 150, but were included with later printings of either Piedmont, Sweet Caporal or both.

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Print Group 1
Originally 150 subjects
5 subjects were added during production of this group.
3 subjects had a team change during this groups production. (Brown, Dahlen,Elberfeld)
1 error (Magie) was corrected.

Tim,

Which 5 subjects were added to the first 150 during production?

Tony

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tonyo

Tim,

Which 5 subjects were added to the first 150 during production?

Tony

Wagner
Plank
Crawford (Throwing)
Jennings (Portrait)
Lundgren (Chicago)

[Abravefan11]

I think this point is getting lost in the southern league group discussion.

Just because some subjects might be more difficult with a certain back, does not necessarily mean they were in a different print group. The Sovereign 460 subset is a perfect example of that.

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Wagner
Plank
Crawford (Throwing)
Jennings (Portrait)
Lundgren (Chicago)

Any other informations about the adition os these 5 subject?

Why these specific 5?

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by g_vezina_c55

Any other informations about the adition os these 5 subject?

Why these specific 5?

There have been a lot of theories proposed, more so for Wagner and Plank, but no one knows for certain.

[Drew]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Wagner
Plank
Crawford (Throwing)
Jennings (Portrait)
Lundgren (Chicago)

Tim
Any theories why Jennings and Lundgren were only printed with a P150 back?
No SC150 or Sov 150 backs.
drew

[tedzan]

Hi Drew......long time, no see ?

Carl Lungren's Major League career ended April 23, 1909. Therefore, his Cubs card was initially printed with the PIEDMONT 150 back.....since American
Lithographic printed the PIEDMONT backs first.

Furthermore, they included Lundgren (Cubs) when they started printing the PIEDMONT 350 backs. At the same time they also printed the EPDG backs
on certain cards. Both these two backs are quite rare on this Lundgren card.





Best regards,

TED Z

[chriskim]

I wonder there's any explanation/theory of Ted's Lungren missing colors error that has the P150 back. That's quite cool looking.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Drew......long time, no see ?

Carl Lungren's Major League career ended April 23, 1909. Therefore, his Cubs card was initially printed with the PIEDMONT 150 back.....since American
Lithographic printed the PIEDMONT backs first.

Furthermore, they included Lundgren (Cubs) when they started printing the PIEDMONT 350 backs. At the same time they also printed the EPDG backs
on certain cards. Both these two backs are quite rare on this Lundgren card.





Best regards,

TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Drew

Tim
Any theories why Jennings and Lundgren were only printed with a P150 back?
No SC150 or Sov 150 backs.
drew

We believe they were added to the set during the last of the 150 Series printings. Their absence from the first printings of Piedmont and Sweet Caporal are supported by their not being printed with a Sovereign 150 back.

One popular misconception is that there were only single printings of backs like Piedmont and Sweet Caporal. However this doesn't seem to be the case. Piedmont and Sweet Caporal cards are believed to have been printed multiple times during the different series and print groups productions.

The Lundgren (Chicago) cards late entry and early exit from the set accounts for this card being printed with so few backs.

Jennings (Portrait) was added late like the Lundgren (Chicago), but wasn't pulled early and can be found with more of the PG1 350 Series backs.

[tedzan]

Tim

Your conjecture that SOVEREIGN backs were printed first in the process does not wash.

This LUNDGREN card, along with the MAGIE error card, the PLANK card, the WAGNER card, and the JOE DOYLE (Nat'l) error card.....and,
even the JOE DOYLE (remnant) printer's mark card.....all disprove your contention.

American Lithographic's (ALC) initial press runs for the 150 and 350 Series printed the PIEDMONT backs first on the T206's. Followed by
the SWEET CAPORAL backs and the brown HINDU backs. In between the latter two press runs ALC printed the SOVEREIGN backs.

The above mentioned 6 subjects are the closest evidence we have that is consistent with my "PIEDMONT first" theory.

And, how do you explain the PIEDMONT 350 backs on the T206's that I refer to as the "Elite Eight" ? According to your thinking, these
8 cards should have been printed with SOVEREIGN 350 backs ?


There is NO evidence whatsoever to support your conjecture that SOVEREIGN was printed first. SOVEREIGN was at best a 3rd tier brand
in the ATC tobacco hierarchy.


TED Z

[White Borders]

This is confusing:

First Drew asks why Jennings and Ludgren were printed with a P150 back, but not SC150 or Sov150 .

Originally Posted by Drew

Tim
Any theories why Jennings and Lundgren were only printed with a P150 back?
No SC150 or Sov 150 backs.
drew

Ted replies that ALC initially printed Lundgren with P150 back "since American Lithographic printed the PIEDMONT backs first." That is correct. But what Ted doesn't state is the possibility of additional P150 print runs later in the 150 series printings. I believe P150 was the first print run for the T206, but Lundgren Chi was not in this run. SC150s, Hindus, Sov150s were then printed. Then another run of P150's was printed to finish off the 150 series, and this run included Lundgren Chi. The final part of Ted's reply about starting the 350 series printing with Piedmont 350 and EPDG backs I also believe is correct and included the Lundgren Chi. Lundgren Chi was soon pulled, which is why it is difficult to find with these two backs.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Drew......long time, no see ?
Carl Lungren's Major League career ended April 23, 1909. Therefore, his Cubs card was initially printed with the PIEDMONT 150 back.....since American
Lithographic printed the PIEDMONT backs first.
Furthermore, they included Lundgren (Cubs) when they started printing the PIEDMONT 350 backs. At the same time they also printed the EPDG backs
on certain cards. Both these two backs are quite rare on this Lundgren card.
Best regards,
TED Z

Then Tim's statement implies that Sov 150 was most likely printed after several othe backs were printed in the 150 series. Because Lundgren Chi and Jennings Port are not found with Sov150, then they would not have been printed in the first P150 run or SC150 run. That only leaves the possiblity that they were printed in a final P150 run at the end of the 150 series.

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

We believe they were added to the set during the last of the 150 Series printings. Their absence from the first printings of Piedmont and Sweet Caporal are supported by their not being printed with a Sovereign 150 back.
One popular misconception is that there were only single printings of backs like Piedmont and Sweet Caporal. However this doesn't seem to be the case. Piedmont and Sweet Caporal cards are believed to have been printed multiple times during the different series and print groups productions.
The Lundgren (Chicago) cards late entry and early exit from the set accounts for this card being printed with so few backs.
Jennings (Portrait) was added late like the Lundgren (Chicago), but wasn't pulled early and can be found with more of the PG1 350 Series backs.

From all this, I'm not sure how Ted interpreted Tim's post to mean that Sov backs were printed first in the process - Probably just misread Tim's post. No where that I'm aware of has Tim ever stated Sovereigns were printed first. Piedmont 150's have long been assumed to be printed first in the 150 series and Piedmont 350's have long been assumed to be printed first in the 350 series. What Tim is trying to show is that there were most likely 2 or more Piedmont print runs while the series was being printed, with the Piedmont runs being separated with other backs' print runs, and some subjects added and some deleted.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Tim

Your conjecture that SOVEREIGN backs were printed first in the process does not wash.
This LUNDGREN card, along with the MAGIE error card, the PLANK card, the WAGNER card, and the JOE DOYLE (Nat'l) error card.....and,
even the JOE DOYLE (remnant) printer's mark card.....all disprove your contention.
American Lithographic's (ALC) initial press runs for the 150 and 350 Series printed the PIEDMONT backs first on the T206's. Followed by
the SWEET CAPORAL backs and the brown HINDU backs. In between the latter two press runs ALC printed the SOVEREIGN backs.
The above mentioned 6 subjects are the closest evidence we have that is consistent with my "PIEDMONT first" theory.
And, how do you explain the PIEDMONT 350 backs on the T206's that I refer to as the "Elite Eight" ? According to your thinking, these
8 cards should have been printed with SOVEREIGN 350 backs ?
There is NO evidence whatsoever to support your conjecture that SOVEREIGN was printed first. SOVEREIGN was at best a 3rd tier brand
in the ATC tobacco hierarchy.
TED Z

Hope this clarifies a few things.

Best Regards and Happy Collecting
Craig

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by White Borders

What Tim is trying to show is that there were most likely 2 or more Piedmont print runs while the series was being printed, with the Piedmont runs being separated with other backs' print runs, and some subjects added and some deleted.

That's exactly right.

There also appears to have been two or more Piedmont 350 printings of the group 1 subjects. Dahlen (Boston) was printed during the first Piedmont 350 print run and the updated Dahlen (Brooklyn) during a later Piedmont 350 print run. The same is true for Elberfeld (New York) and the updated Elberfeld (Washington).

I think these multiple printings for Piedmont and Sweet Caporal happened throughout the set.

[White Borders]

Number of Subjects in Print Group 2 with Polar Bear backs = 136

136 / 4 = 34

Best Regards and Happy Collecting
Craig

[cfc1909]

The point here is to get the cards in their correct group. Putting the 14 southern league subjects in the 350 only or a second group from the other 34 southern league subjects is one way of looking at it.

Just try to look at it where the 48 southern league subjects are in print group 6.

Try to look at it where the team changes that only have a 350 back are in print group 1.

Putting these subjects into print groups the way ATC distributed them will help understand the composition of this set.

Double prints, sheet numbers aside for now, just try to get the subjects into the proper print groups

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by White Borders

Number of Subjects in Print Group 2 with Polar Bear backs = 136

136 / 4 = 34

Best Regards and Happy Collecting
Craig

Hey Craig......try looking at the big picture


Subjects........Series

..12..............150-only

144..............150/350

204..............350-only

..60..............350/460

..46..............460-only (+ 2 double-prints)

..48..............Southern Lgrs.

...6...............Super-Prints

...2...............Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations
____
522 = total subjects


T-Rex TED