T206 Print Groups-A Quick Overview

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Great post, Tim! can you attach some dates to the various print groups?

Definitive dates of when one group stopped and another began aren't known. Below is a general timeline based on what we do know, but it's by no means meant to be exact.

[t206blogcom]

Tim - Great post, thanks.

Leon - Keep me in mind if you have T206 Southern Leaguers for sale, especially Hindu backs!

[sb1]

These will all be offered in the next auction. lots of SL's and many of them are Hindu backs, Stay tuned for details.

[dealme]

Nice summary Tim. This helped answer some of my questions after my first time through Inside T206

[MVSNYC]

Tim, that chart really paints a clear picture, awesome, thanks!

[sreader3]

Tim,

As I have written elsewhere, I would split the southern leaguers into two print groups: the 34 that are available with Hindu (150/350) and the 14 that are not (350-only). As Jamie Hull discovered, 34 southern league subjects have essentially equivalent back distribution split between Hindu, Piedmont 350 and Old Mill Southern and the other 14 have essentially equivalent back distribution split between only Piedmont 350 and Old Mill Southern. (Footnote: I miss Jamie Hull--he was a truly great T206 researcher).

Scot

[mrvster]

Great input...I love the summation Tim!!
I have always wondered about the super prints with sov 460 backs since i'm attempting the sub- set...the general "rarity" is disputed amongst collectors, but I have trouble finding these super prints...I know there are other sov 460 combos just as tuf, but the superprints in this paticuliar sub set seem to get alot of attention in regard to the apparent rarity...any thoughts on this?? the rarity of the super-prints in sov 460???

Scot!!- Where has Jamie BEEN??!!! I love his Ford Tolstoi Scrap and the split front top to bottom different player Phillipe and engle

[sreader3]

mrvster,

I know Ted is of the view that the six superprints are harder to find with Sovereign 460 than the 460-only subjects are to find with that back. I'm not inclined to question that--especially since Ted is the only person I know to have put together a complete Sovereign-only T206 set.

Jamie was a very cool and humble guy and extremely knowledgeable about T206. He was an asset to the hobby and I hope he returns to this board some day.

Scot

[Leon]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Jamie was a very cool and humble guy and extremely knowledgeable about T206. He was an asset to the hobby and I hope he returns to this board some day.

Scot

He was on the board 3 weeks ago and posted a couple months ago. Did something happen to him?

[Abravefan11]

Scot - Each of the print groups, with exception to the super prints, can be broken down into additional subsets. But when looking at the sets composition, all 48 of the southern league subjects fit into a single print group. Had it not been for something unforeseen, all 48 would have been printed and distributed with Hindu backs as ATC intended. And population variances, that demonstrate subsets within a print group for the same back, is something we see throughout the set.

Johnny-Some Sovereign 460's are much easier to find than others. There is a definitive difference in the numbers between two subsets printed with that back. But the six super prints do not stand alone as being the toughest. Yes they are tough, but there are a number of other Sovereign 460's I believe are just as tough.

[sreader3]

Tim,

You and I can agree to disagree about the southern leaguer breakdown.

I don't think the 14 southern leaguers that weren't printed with Hindu were "ready for print" at the time of the summer-fall 1909 Hindu printing--and even if they were "ready for print" the fact remains that they were not printed with Hindu.

I will continue to regard these 14 as a distinct 350-only southern league print group until proof to the contrary is presented (e.g., 1909 advertising).

Scot

Footnote: What is the "something unforeseen" that you are referring to?

[cfc1909]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Tim,

34 southern league subjects have essentially equivalent back distribution split between Hindu, Piedmont 350 and Old Mill Southern

Scot

This is not true. The 34 southern subjects that come with Hindu are much tougher than any Piedmont or Old Mill subject, the same 34 or the other 14.

My belief is the reason it is 34 is that is the number of subjects that compose a sheet.

There are 102 major league subjects printed with Hindu and to put 14 subjects in their own group you would have to put the 102 in their own group. That is not the case.

For some unknown reason they stopped printing Hindu. That is clear by the ads. Dooin and Waddell and Nicholls are pictured on ads and do not exist with Hindu.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

This is not true. The 34 southern subjects that come with Hindu are much tougher than any Piedmont or Old Mill subject, the same 34 or the other 14.

My belief is the reason it is 34 is that is the number of subjects that compose a sheet.

There are 102 major league subjects printed with Hindu and to put 14 subjects in their own group you would have to put the 102 in their own group. That is not the case.

For some unknown reason they stopped printing Hindu. That is clear by the ads. Dooin and Waddell and Nicholls are pictured on ads and do not exist with Hindu.

34 Is almost certainly not the number of subjects on a sheet. That there are 34 with Hindu and 14 without is an extremely strong argument against 34 being the number of subjects.

If there were 34 on a sheet then there would have to have been some way of having the 14 that weren't printed with Hindu as part of another sheet.
And that wouldn't work unless you picture them as part of an old mill sheet that had 14 SL and 20 regular cards. OR that ALC had two color presses and was able to print multiple backs in one pass.

I just don't see either scenario as being likely. And so far there's no eveidence of either. No miscuts with both SL and regualr cards on the same card, nor anything I can see that would indicate the use of multi color presses. One of the principal partners did invent the multi color press, but I haven't found a date yet.

There are several other groups of cards that indicate fewer than 34 subjects on a sheet, with a number closer to 12 or 14 possibly as small as 6 more likely.

Steve B

[cfc1909]

Steve

I do not have 100% proof that a sheet consisted of 34 subjects, it is just my belief after studying the set for many years. 102 could also be 3 sheets of 34.

There may even be a couple different number of subjects per sheet. Hopefully a sheet shows up and we can learn from it.

There were different configurations of subjects on sheets. The Lundgren with a miscut with 2 different names at top proves that. The 34 number appears so many times when studying the sets composition it has led me to believe that is the number of subjects per sheet but certainly you are entitled to your conclusions/beliefs.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by steve B

34 Is almost certainly not the number of subjects on a sheet. That there are 34 with Hindu and 14 without is an extremely strong argument against 34 being the number of subjects.

If there were 34 on a sheet then there would have to have been some way of having the 14 that weren't printed with Hindu as part of another sheet.
And that wouldn't work unless you picture them as part of an old mill sheet that had 14 SL and 20 regular cards. OR that ALC had two color presses and was able to print multiple backs in one pass.

I just don't see either scenario as being likely. And so far there's no eveidence of either. No miscuts with both SL and regualr cards on the same card, nor anything I can see that would indicate the use of multi color presses. One of the principal partners did invent the multi color press, but I haven't found a date yet.

There are several other groups of cards that indicate fewer than 34 subjects on a sheet, with a number closer to 12 or 14 possibly as small as 6 more likely.

Steve B

Hey Steve

Don't waste your time arguing this subject. They have only 2 examples that makes them think that "34" is the sheet size. When you inform them (and you are certainly
informed in printing practices) that 34 subjects were printed on a 36-card sheet which included 2 double-prints....they scoff at you.

For example, the 36-card sheet in which the SWEET CAP 150 factory #649 (overprint) group of 34 subjects were printed on included Powers; and either the Davis, or
Johnson , or Mathewson cards were double-printed.

Furthermore, the 46 subjects in the 460-only Series were printed on a 48-card sheet which included double prints of Duffy and Ford.

Why these two guys....Duffy was popular since he became Manager of the White Sox for the 1910 season. And, Russ Ford was a rookie sensation in New York in 1910,
winning 26 games while losing only 6 games.

Thru out the T206 series subject construction, the numbers are invariably factors of 6 or 12. It does not take a math major to understand this. American Lithographic's
printing presses for this type of litho printing were designed to accommodated sheets of cards that were 36, 48, 72, etc. (12 cards horizontally x N number of rows
vertically).


T-Rex TED

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Very cool thread

[Craig M]

Nice thread Tim!

Can someone please give me the small list of players that can be found only with 150 Series backs in the (Group 1) printing?

Thanks

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Craig M

Nice thread Tim!

Can someone please give me the small list of players that can be found only with 150 Series backs in the (Group 1) printing?

Thanks

http://t206resource.com/Print%20Grou...Checklist.html

[Pat R]

0 T206Timeline.jpg


I think we can move print group 1 back a month or two if the information in this newspaper clip I found about the court proceedings is accurate.

Baseball pictures put in packs The_News_and_Observer_Thu__Jun_22__1911_.jpg

[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Definitive dates of when one group stopped and another began aren't known. Below is a general timeline based on what we do know, but it's by no means meant to be exact.

The Harry McIntyre BKN/CHI card in Group 2 could not have been printed until at least April 1910 since his trade to the Cubs occurred on April 13.

Of course knowing N54 collectors, I suspect one of you will flash me a BKN-only version to prove me wrong.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

The Harry McIntyre BKN/CHI card in Group 2 could not have been printed until at least April 1910 since his trade to the Cubs occurred on April 13.

Of course knowing N54 collectors, I suspect one of you will flash me a BKN-only version to prove me wrong.

Jason, Harry McIntyre (BKN/CHI) is print group 3.

[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Jason, Harry McIntyre (BKN/CHI) is print group 3.

Indeed! Brain fart on my part.


Jason
Twitter: @heavyj28