T206 Print Groups-A Quick Overview

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tonyo

Tim,

Which 5 subjects were added to the first 150 during production?

Tony

Wagner
Plank
Crawford (Throwing)
Jennings (Portrait)
Lundgren (Chicago)

[Abravefan11]

I think this point is getting lost in the southern league group discussion.

Just because some subjects might be more difficult with a certain back, does not necessarily mean they were in a different print group. The Sovereign 460 subset is a perfect example of that.

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Wagner
Plank
Crawford (Throwing)
Jennings (Portrait)
Lundgren (Chicago)

Any other informations about the adition os these 5 subject?

Why these specific 5?

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by g_vezina_c55

Any other informations about the adition os these 5 subject?

Why these specific 5?

There have been a lot of theories proposed, more so for Wagner and Plank, but no one knows for certain.

[Drew]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Wagner
Plank
Crawford (Throwing)
Jennings (Portrait)
Lundgren (Chicago)

Tim
Any theories why Jennings and Lundgren were only printed with a P150 back?
No SC150 or Sov 150 backs.
drew

[tedzan]

Hi Drew......long time, no see ?

Carl Lungren's Major League career ended April 23, 1909. Therefore, his Cubs card was initially printed with the PIEDMONT 150 back.....since American
Lithographic printed the PIEDMONT backs first.

Furthermore, they included Lundgren (Cubs) when they started printing the PIEDMONT 350 backs. At the same time they also printed the EPDG backs
on certain cards. Both these two backs are quite rare on this Lundgren card.





Best regards,

TED Z

[chriskim]

I wonder there's any explanation/theory of Ted's Lungren missing colors error that has the P150 back. That's quite cool looking.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Drew......long time, no see ?

Carl Lungren's Major League career ended April 23, 1909. Therefore, his Cubs card was initially printed with the PIEDMONT 150 back.....since American
Lithographic printed the PIEDMONT backs first.

Furthermore, they included Lundgren (Cubs) when they started printing the PIEDMONT 350 backs. At the same time they also printed the EPDG backs
on certain cards. Both these two backs are quite rare on this Lundgren card.





Best regards,

TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by chriskim

I wonder there's any explanation/theory of Ted's Lungren missing colors error that has the P150 back. That's quite cool looking.

Hi Chris

In the 6-color process that American Litho used to print the fronts of these cards, Red was usually the last ink pass. However, in the printing of this Lundgren (Cubs),
Blue must have been the last ink pass (which was omitted).

I was pleasantly surprised when I acquired a 255-card T206 collection 12 years ago to find this Lundgren (missing blue ink) in it.

Originally Posted by tedzan

The Carl Lundgren (Cubs) cards is a favorite of mine for several reasons. Especially, since it was the first T206 subject of which
I completed its back Run (only 3 cards needed). I included the color-error (missing blue ink) of Lundgren to accent this display.




.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Chris

The 6-color process that American Litho used to print the fronts of these cards, Red was the last ink pass. However, since Lundgren (Cubs) has no Red color, Blue was the last ink pass.

I was pleasantly surprised when I acquired a 255-card T206 collection 12 years ago to find this Lundgren (missing blue ink) in it.





TED Z

T206 Reference
.

I'm not sure what the order of all the color passes were but there were more than six and one of the Red passes was before the end.

Downey.jpg

[chriskim]

It could be just me.... I can't see/load any pics Pat R. posts on his messages.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by chriskim

I wonder there's any explanation/theory of Ted's Lungren missing colors error that has the P150 back. That's quite cool looking.

Scrap Piedmont 150 sheet. These have been called Yellow/Brown but they also have one of the Red passes on them. The Bradley has a Yellow shift that's similar to Ted's Lundgren.

Bradley.jpg

Jennings.jpg

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Drew

Tim
Any theories why Jennings and Lundgren were only printed with a P150 back?
No SC150 or Sov 150 backs.
drew

We believe they were added to the set during the last of the 150 Series printings. Their absence from the first printings of Piedmont and Sweet Caporal are supported by their not being printed with a Sovereign 150 back.

One popular misconception is that there were only single printings of backs like Piedmont and Sweet Caporal. However this doesn't seem to be the case. Piedmont and Sweet Caporal cards are believed to have been printed multiple times during the different series and print groups productions.

The Lundgren (Chicago) cards late entry and early exit from the set accounts for this card being printed with so few backs.

Jennings (Portrait) was added late like the Lundgren (Chicago), but wasn't pulled early and can be found with more of the PG1 350 Series backs.

[tedzan]

Tim

Your conjecture that SOVEREIGN backs were printed first in the process does not wash.

This LUNDGREN card, along with the MAGIE error card, the PLANK card, the WAGNER card, and the JOE DOYLE (Nat'l) error card.....and,
even the JOE DOYLE (remnant) printer's mark card.....all disprove your contention.

American Lithographic's (ALC) initial press runs for the 150 and 350 Series printed the PIEDMONT backs first on the T206's. Followed by
the SWEET CAPORAL backs and the brown HINDU backs. In between the latter two press runs ALC printed the SOVEREIGN backs.

The above mentioned 6 subjects are the closest evidence we have that is consistent with my "PIEDMONT first" theory.

And, how do you explain the PIEDMONT 350 backs on the T206's that I refer to as the "Elite Eight" ? According to your thinking, these
8 cards should have been printed with SOVEREIGN 350 backs ?


There is NO evidence whatsoever to support your conjecture that SOVEREIGN was printed first. SOVEREIGN was at best a 3rd tier brand
in the ATC tobacco hierarchy.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Ted - I know this is complex information, but it would be a big help if you make an effort to understand my points before dismissing them. If you truly have an interest in my thoughts I'll be happy to discuss them. If my ideas or thoughts are wrong before I post them, we should just both move on.

I would never say that Sovereign was the first back printed. We always say that Piedmont 150 was the first printed and we know this because of the Magie error card. What we do believe is that after the Piedmont 150 there was a printing for Sweet Caporal and Sovereign 150. We believe these printings included only the original 150 subjects.

We believe Plank, Wagner, Crawford, Lundgren and Jennings were not included in these early printings and added later.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

And, how do you explain the PIEDMONT 350 backs on the T206's that I refer to as the "Elite Eight" ? According to your thinking, these 8 cards should have been printed with SOVEREIGN 350 backs ?

TED Z

This is another incidence where you're not following me so I'll try and clarify.

I would not say that the print group 1 subjects discontinued early in the 350 series should be found with Sovereign 350 backs. I believe the exact opposite of that.

This is how I would explain those cards. - There are a number of print group 1 subjects that were either discontinued or had their team designation changed after the first two printings of the 350 series. These first two printings were Piedmont 350 and EPDG backs. These subjects will not be found with any other 350 series back or Old Mill.

[steve B]

I suppose I may as well go against the grain here as well.

Assuming Scot Readers estimate of 370 million produced and the larger sheet of 34 subjects X 5 of each for a 170 card sheet that's nearly 2.2 million impressions. At 1000 sheets an hour that's about 54 weeks of work per color just to print the cards. Or about 7-9 Years of labor depending on how many colors you think were used including backs.

In other words ALC must have been running the T206s on multiple presses at the same time.
Even assuming a large sheet.
Even cutting the estimated production in half it still would have required multiple presses operating simultaneously.

So while they were packed and distributed based on some known dates the printing most likely was ongoing with multiple backs being printed at the same time.


Steve B
PS: I know, the time required to print is another solid argument for a larger sheet. There's also a technical issue of balancing the time to print against the time to cut and package. Larger sheets of small things require a lot of cutting time. But small sheets take more printing time. Someday I'll have to ask someone I know if threre's a formula.

[White Borders]

Originally Posted by steve B

PS: I know, the time required to print is another solid argument for a larger sheet. There's also a technical issue of balancing the time to print against the time to cut and package. Larger sheets of small things require a lot of cutting time. But small sheets take more printing time. Someday I'll have to ask someone I know if threre's a formula.

Steve,

Thinking outside the box, I've always assumed that each sheet ALC printed carried the same back for all the different fronts on that sheet (such as P350 #25 as all the backs on a sheet, or SC350 #30 as all the backs on a sheet, but never a mix of different backs on a sheet). With this assumption, is it possible that instead of cutting the sheets at ALC, the entire sheets were shipped to the appropriate ATC factory where they were then cut into the individual cards and packaged with the tobacco? Is there any proof one way or another?

Best Regards,
Craig

[White Borders]

This is confusing:

First Drew asks why Jennings and Ludgren were printed with a P150 back, but not SC150 or Sov150 .

Originally Posted by Drew

Tim
Any theories why Jennings and Lundgren were only printed with a P150 back?
No SC150 or Sov 150 backs.
drew

Ted replies that ALC initially printed Lundgren with P150 back "since American Lithographic printed the PIEDMONT backs first." That is correct. But what Ted doesn't state is the possibility of additional P150 print runs later in the 150 series printings. I believe P150 was the first print run for the T206, but Lundgren Chi was not in this run. SC150s, Hindus, Sov150s were then printed. Then another run of P150's was printed to finish off the 150 series, and this run included Lundgren Chi. The final part of Ted's reply about starting the 350 series printing with Piedmont 350 and EPDG backs I also believe is correct and included the Lundgren Chi. Lundgren Chi was soon pulled, which is why it is difficult to find with these two backs.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Drew......long time, no see ?
Carl Lungren's Major League career ended April 23, 1909. Therefore, his Cubs card was initially printed with the PIEDMONT 150 back.....since American
Lithographic printed the PIEDMONT backs first.
Furthermore, they included Lundgren (Cubs) when they started printing the PIEDMONT 350 backs. At the same time they also printed the EPDG backs
on certain cards. Both these two backs are quite rare on this Lundgren card.
Best regards,
TED Z

Then Tim's statement implies that Sov 150 was most likely printed after several othe backs were printed in the 150 series. Because Lundgren Chi and Jennings Port are not found with Sov150, then they would not have been printed in the first P150 run or SC150 run. That only leaves the possiblity that they were printed in a final P150 run at the end of the 150 series.

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

We believe they were added to the set during the last of the 150 Series printings. Their absence from the first printings of Piedmont and Sweet Caporal are supported by their not being printed with a Sovereign 150 back.
One popular misconception is that there were only single printings of backs like Piedmont and Sweet Caporal. However this doesn't seem to be the case. Piedmont and Sweet Caporal cards are believed to have been printed multiple times during the different series and print groups productions.
The Lundgren (Chicago) cards late entry and early exit from the set accounts for this card being printed with so few backs.
Jennings (Portrait) was added late like the Lundgren (Chicago), but wasn't pulled early and can be found with more of the PG1 350 Series backs.

From all this, I'm not sure how Ted interpreted Tim's post to mean that Sov backs were printed first in the process - Probably just misread Tim's post. No where that I'm aware of has Tim ever stated Sovereigns were printed first. Piedmont 150's have long been assumed to be printed first in the 150 series and Piedmont 350's have long been assumed to be printed first in the 350 series. What Tim is trying to show is that there were most likely 2 or more Piedmont print runs while the series was being printed, with the Piedmont runs being separated with other backs' print runs, and some subjects added and some deleted.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Tim

Your conjecture that SOVEREIGN backs were printed first in the process does not wash.
This LUNDGREN card, along with the MAGIE error card, the PLANK card, the WAGNER card, and the JOE DOYLE (Nat'l) error card.....and,
even the JOE DOYLE (remnant) printer's mark card.....all disprove your contention.
American Lithographic's (ALC) initial press runs for the 150 and 350 Series printed the PIEDMONT backs first on the T206's. Followed by
the SWEET CAPORAL backs and the brown HINDU backs. In between the latter two press runs ALC printed the SOVEREIGN backs.
The above mentioned 6 subjects are the closest evidence we have that is consistent with my "PIEDMONT first" theory.
And, how do you explain the PIEDMONT 350 backs on the T206's that I refer to as the "Elite Eight" ? According to your thinking, these
8 cards should have been printed with SOVEREIGN 350 backs ?
There is NO evidence whatsoever to support your conjecture that SOVEREIGN was printed first. SOVEREIGN was at best a 3rd tier brand
in the ATC tobacco hierarchy.
TED Z

Hope this clarifies a few things.

Best Regards and Happy Collecting
Craig

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by White Borders

What Tim is trying to show is that there were most likely 2 or more Piedmont print runs while the series was being printed, with the Piedmont runs being separated with other backs' print runs, and some subjects added and some deleted.

That's exactly right.

There also appears to have been two or more Piedmont 350 printings of the group 1 subjects. Dahlen (Boston) was printed during the first Piedmont 350 print run and the updated Dahlen (Brooklyn) during a later Piedmont 350 print run. The same is true for Elberfeld (New York) and the updated Elberfeld (Washington).

I think these multiple printings for Piedmont and Sweet Caporal happened throughout the set.

[White Borders]

If anybody reading this post is able to time travel someday, then you must agree to travel back to American Lithographic Company in 1909 - 1910 and take photos of uncut sheets of T206 and the equipment they were printed with. You must then travel to a point in time of 6:16 pm Central Time, Jan 31, 2013 and post your photos so we will know definitively the size of the T206 sheets.

PS, pick up a couple of Wagners for me while you are there.

Best Regards and Good Luck,
Craig

[White Borders]

Originally Posted by White Borders

If anybody reading this post is able to time travel someday, then you must agree to travel back to American Lithographic Company in 1909 - 1910 and take photos of uncut sheets of T206 and the equipment they were printed with. You must then travel to a point in time of 6:16 pm Central Time, Jan 31, 2013 and post your photos so we will know definitively the size of the T206 sheets.

PS, pick up a couple of Wagners for me while you are there.

Best Regards and Good Luck,
Craig

Well, it is now 6:22 and I'm very disappointed

[sreader3]

I have been away from this thread for a couple of days to deal with pending business but would like to offer a couple of hypotheticals on the topic of whether the SLers should be characterized as (a) one print group of 48 or (b) two print groups—a 150/350 print group of 34 subjects and a 350-only print group of 14 subjects.

First, I think we all agree that Brown Hindu is a 150 series back. If you do not agree with that, please exit the station here.

Now, for those of you who are still on the train, let’s imagine a universe where the Brown Hindu back reads “150 Subjects” akin to the Piedmont 150 back. In that event, would anyone still be arguing that the 14 SL subjects who are only printed with Piedmont 350 and Old Mill Southern are part of the same print group as the 34 subjects who are printed with Hindu 150, Piedmont 350 and Old Mill Southern?

And if your answer to the first question is “yes,” then why do you consider the 150-only major league subjects a separate print group from the 150/350 subjects? Aren’t the former just 150/350 major league subjects that were discontinued early (akin to the 14 350-only SL subjects that were added late)?

And where the heck is Jamie Hull on this?

Scot