the list (of criminals) is revealed

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by wolf441

So this thread is now #7 all time in number of replies and #9 all time in number of views. I feel like I did when Bonds was chasing Aaron...

I'm predicting that it lands at #2 on both lists by the middle of next week.


Frank, the "What's Your Monster Number?" thread is safe...for now!

Nailed it!!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

that was a good one!

i actually thought about posting it, but did not think anyone on here would actually get it.

i'd speculate that the median age of the board members here was probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 53...

which basically rules them out of knowing anything about rage against the machine.

bulls on a parade, i guess.

Hey now! I'm nearly 53 and knew the quote.

I sort of like their music, but not some of the other stuff about them.

Steve Birmingham

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by steve B

I sort of like their music

Steve Birmingham

no you don't! ; )

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by wolf441

Nailed it!!

Steve,

This thread is a hare. The MN is a tortoise.

My first wife was a Neuman. What me worry!

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Steve,

This thread is a hare. The MN is a tortoise.

My first wife was a Neuman. What me worry!

That's right, it's a marathon, not a sprint. Don't worry, if this thread starts to get close to the Monster Number thread, I'll engage in "shill viewing" the monster thread to keep it at #1!!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by wolf441

That's right, it's a marathon, not a sprint. Don't worry, if this thread starts to get close to the Monster Number thread, I'll engage in "shill viewing" the monster thread to keep it at #1!!

Also there is allegations of HGH in this thread...any records will be met with an asterick *

[1880nonsports]

Get Record Prices for your Cards and Collectibles at Goldin Auctions!


Sent By Goldin Auctions News On:Feb 02/04/16 10:34 AM

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

Get Record Prices for your Cards and Collectibles at Goldin Auctions!


Sent By Goldin Auctions News On:Feb 02/04/16 10:34 AM

I noticed that too. He still hasn't commented on the list though

[bbcardzman]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

that was a good one!

i actually thought about posting it, but did not think anyone on here would actually get it.

i'd speculate that the median age of the board members here was probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 53...

which basically rules them out of knowing anything about rage against the machine.

bulls on a parade, i guess.

So people in this 50 something neighborhood don't know about Rage against the machine??!
Don't you know that we grew up listening to the original heavy metal pioneers? Why wouldn't we know good metal when we hear it?
Guess you youngsters wouldn't know about the older groups who are the reason there is a Rage Against the Machine, Metallica, Pantera, System of a Down, Tool, ect.
Ever hear of groups like - Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Iron Butterfly, Andromeda, Lucifer's Friend, Budgie, Steppenwolf, MC5, ect. ect.
Us old guys ARE the original headbangers, and age has nothing to do with it.
So rally round the family, with a pocket full of shells!

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

that was a good one!

i actually thought about posting it, but did not think anyone on here would actually get it.

i'd speculate that the median age of the board members here was probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 53...

which basically rules them out of knowing anything about rage against the machine.

bulls on a parade, i guess.

Tom Morello was born in 1964. Group started in 1991 in which people aprox 53 were still in their late 20s. Now if you would have mentioned Bieber that be closer to your point.

[begsu1013]

easy guys.

even though you threw my post into the pretzel machine, 53 was not a knock.

nor the fact that most 53+ folks don't know who rage against the machine is.


on the contrary, eric...i actually like that a few of ya'll know or even like ratm.

seriously, i threw a lob of a water melon out there for an easy grandslam w/ bulls on parade. sat back and waited on "...and a pocket full of shills" and not one person ran with it.

so, i still officially stand by that statement 100% and that most here have no clue on that reference. however, that certainly isn't a knock to 53+ folks not having good musical taste. in fact i grew up in the 80's and while we had a decent run of bands, my dials go straight to 70's stations.


and while i appreciate the groups you like and don't feel the need to list my musical resume...i can assure you i know nothing about war pigs or sweet leaf smoke on the water which is literally about them burning down the montreux theatre, dime bag darrell, metallica and them being the only band to play on every continent, heck, they might have even played in the garden of eden or is it ina gadda da vida?, steppenwolf although i wouldn't refer to them as heavy metal.

all i know is that most here would not know the ratm reference and that fairies wear boots, ya gotta believe me.

besides after les paul and robert johnson, it's all just noise anyways!

-youngster

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by sflayank

its a total fallacy...if the auction house rules were 15 minutes per lot or even 30 minutes per lot all the bidders would know that and bid accordingly....they want you to go to sleep and put in a max bid.....PERIOD...

That is not my experience, Larry. Most times I have a pretty concrete budget I can work with for an auction. I have often gone into OT with high bids on several lots that were later knocked out, leaving me with available cash but nothing to bid on even though there were items I would have bid on otherwise. Conversely, in an auction like Sterling where all lots close at the same time, I have successfully shifted my 'action' to alternative lots when the ones I was high bidder on fell out.

ETA: Tom Morello is older than me but still way cooler...

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

easy guys.

even though you threw my post into the pretzel machine, 53 was not a knock.

nor the fact that most 53+ folks don't know who rage against the machine is.

.....

besides after les paul and robert johnson, it's all just noise anyways!

-youngster

I liked your original post.

Robert Johnson was the ultimate youngster!!!

[Econteachert205]

Consignors should like certain forms of collusion. I'm either going in on a lot with someone or not bidding at all. Which would you as consignor prefer?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

That is not my experience, Larry. Most times I have a pretty concrete budget I can work with for an auction. I have often gone into OT with high bids on several lots that were later knocked out, leaving me with available cash but nothing to bid on even though there were items I would have bid on otherwise. Conversely, in an auction like Sterling where all lots close at the same time, I have successfully shifted my 'action' to alternative lots when the ones I was high bidder on fell out.

ETA: Tom Morello is older than me but still way cooler...

That is good for you if you want to stay up all night. You ignore the people who go to bed with the high bid, but get sniped by someone who stays up all night. The consignor ends up losing money because one of his bidders is asleep and can't respond to the higher bid. Those auction houses that want all lots open to 4am are losing my business. I am more than happy to give my business to those like Heritage who close lots with no bids for 30 minutes or by live auction. It is not worth my time to sit around waiting to see if I get out bid.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by rats60

That is good for you if you want to stay up all night. You ignore the people who go to bed with the high bid, but get sniped by someone who stays up all night. The consignor ends up losing money because one of his bidders is asleep and can't respond to the higher bid. Those auction houses that want all lots open to 4am are losing my business. I am more than happy to give my business to those like Heritage who close lots with no bids for 30 minutes or by live auction. It is not worth my time to sit around waiting to see if I get out bid.

Agree.

Hunt Auctions works like that too and I love it. I place early initial bids on the lots I'm interested in and then on the final night it's easy to manage my budget. As each lot closes, I know I either won it or I didn't, so then I can proceed to the next lot (or go to bed, having spent my budget.)

I couldn't just put max bids on all four or five lots and then get to sleep, because I couldn't afford to win them all.

[1880nonsports]

that outbid might just be at the hands of the "house". If you knew that - it might not feel that good.

"I am more than happy to give my business to those like Heritage who close lots with no bids for 30 minutes or by live auction. It is not worth my time to sit around waiting to see if I get out bid."

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by rats60

That is good for you if you want to stay up all night. You ignore the people who go to bed with the high bid, but get sniped by someone who stays up all night. The consignor ends up losing money because one of his bidders is asleep and can't respond to the higher bid. Those auction houses that want all lots open to 4am are losing my business. I am more than happy to give my business to those like Heritage who close lots with no bids for 30 minutes or by live auction. It is not worth my time to sit around waiting to see if I get out bid.

While I 100% agree that the 30 min. per lot rule is much better, I'm a little surprised that you'd state -- in a thread about shill bidding -- that you prefer to give your business to an AH whose rules state the consignor may bid on their own items and the AH itself reserves the right to bid on "undervalued" lots.

[WindyCityGameUsed]

I for one would like to thank Leon for having the courage to keep this thread open.

I would imagine its not easy to stand TALL and not cave against the not so unwritten code of silence that these AH scoundrels pressure others into doing if they even think of breaking ranks.

When an auction house such as Goldin can take control over a supposed collectors site for the explicit purpose of self promotion and silencing critics all hobbyists should wonder why and have concern as members of GUU & GUC are finding out.

Its apparent that collusion is alive and well with all participants bottom line benefiting economically.

The lights have gone on again in the industry and rest assured the roaches are scurrying around looking for cover back in the darkness and I for one choose the light of day.

Ron Kosiewicz

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

I for 1 would like to thank Leon for having the courage to keep this thread open.

I would imagine its not easy to stand TALL and not cave against the not so unwritten code of science that these AH scoundrels pressure others into doing if they even think of breaking ranks.

When an auction house such as Goldin can take control over a supposed collectors site for the explicit purpose of self promotion and silencing critics all hobbyists should wonder why and have concern as members of GUU & GUC are finding out.

Its apparent that collusion is alive and well with all participants bottom line benefiting vastly economically.

The light have gone on again in the industry and you can rest assured that the roaches are scurrying around looking for cover back in the darkness and I for 1 choose the light of day.

Ron Kosiewicz

Great post. If not for Leon's willingness, and I would say encouragement, for this topic to be thoroughly discussed, on what other forum could we do this?

I was just on another hobby forum site, reading a new post on this topic, and when I went back a few minutes later, that post had been deleted. Apparently, talking about this in the "wrong" way is not allowed in some venues...

To quote Voltaire: "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

[HRBAKER]

So does all of this light and noise change anything?

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Great post. If not for Leon's willingness, and I would say encouragement, for this topic to be thoroughly discussed, on what other forum could we do this?

I was just on another hobby forum site, reading a new post on this topic, and when I went back a few minutes later, that post had been deleted. Apparently, talking about this in the "wrong" way is not allowed in some venues...

To quote Voltaire: "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

No need to state which Forum. The Obvious is duely noted.
"Censorship:Protection From Reality"

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So does all of this light and noise change anything?

Hi Jeff,

Great question.

I truly believe it will change things. However, the breadth and depth of change that will result from this is clearly uncertain. There will be some people who do nothing, and others who use the now-public information to avoid doing business with all of those upon whom a negative light has been cast. Everyone else will fall somewhere in between, tailoring their response to this news in the manner which personally suits them best.

I do believe one thing is reasonable to presume. There are quite a few hobbyists who will approach auctions with a greater amount of care, caution, and due diligence. At least, they will for a while.

My sincere hope is that this occurrence serves as the starting point for sustained pressure on all auction houses to ensure fair, transparent, arms-length transactions. This also applies to other platforms where an auction format is offered. And yes, I'm looking at you, eBay.

Again, great question. Please know that my response was meant to add to an ongoing conversation, and I am not directing negativity towards you or any particular person.

Best regards,

Eric

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Great post. If not for Leon's willingness, and I would say encouragement, for this topic to be thoroughly discussed, on what other forum could we do this?

I was just on another hobby forum site, reading a new post on this topic, and when I went back a few minutes later, that post had been deleted. Apparently, talking about this in the "wrong" way is not allowed in some venues...

To quote Voltaire: "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

Sad but spot on.

The self proclaimed "Friend of the Collector" has dispatched both the Goldin Mossad and the paid help to put GUU on information lockdown in regards to his reported misdeeds 24/7.

Mods lights on that thread never go off with any posts that aren't from fan boys and/or are critical of his holiness are deleted within minutes of being posted with some members I hear being banned for nothing more than trying to discuss the matter.

Sum of the self important/entitled in this racket seem 2 forget that without US there is no them

[1880nonsports]

and suppression on another forum should have it's own thread. It's important if it's important to the community at large and I think it is - but I think in this thread perhaps it detracts a bit from the core issues regarding shilling and obfuscation. Just one man's opinion and nothing against the spirit of your concerns.

[mickeymao34]

The "Holiness" in question is on Consign/shill list and is owner and chief of that closed society. Thus, indeed does have merit being a owner of a AH. The recent posts on that "closed" society is robotic and too the (his) point. The people posting obviosly are plants" of Dear Leader. It's like reading transcripts from tonight's N.Korean news agency.

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So does all of this light and noise change anything?

The majority of change IMO will have to come at the hands of the FBI (who do by the way watch these forums) because these Turds will not be stopping on their own.

Their is 2 much $$$ at stake and the level of greed is 2 great 4 the powers that be 2 change on their own since Bill Mastro apparently was the baby daddy industry model for the bad behavior employed industry wide (Doctored cards, created/fake GU, shilling)

Nothing is given without U fighting for it and at this point its more about standing up for whats rite until the authorities take further action.

I personally try to avoid auctions when sourcing my GU after being shilled in probably every 1 I've ever participated in.

The surface has only been scratched here shilling is easier for the FBI 2 bust unlike the wave of created/fake GU or spec correct never worn passed off as GU sold in just about every auction I've ever looked at.

With all the companies running auctions on such a frequent basis does anyone truly believe that there is that much real quality items out there that aren't buried in someones collection?

Outright fake & misrepresented shit is as much apart of the hobby as shilling

Ron Kosiewicz

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My name appears on the list of "shill bidders" on one transaction where my friend, Ron Goldberg, was the consignor. I don't view myself as a shill bidder, nor do I believe Ron did anything inappropriate. I have no doubt that some of you will disagree, and candidly I have shared this with a few people I respect a lot and they come out different ways. In any event, these are the facts.

In 2007, Ron had a valuable but relatively low demand oddball set (one of the Red Men sets). At some point he was talking to Doug and Doug asked if he would consider consigning the set. Ron said that he would but that because it was an oddball set, he was reluctant to do so unless a reserve could be placed on the auction, particularly since one of Ron's lots had sold well below his expectations in a previous auction. Doug said that he would not place a formal reserve, but instructed Ron that he could achieve the same result if he had a friend bid the reserve amount. Doug insisted, however, that if the friend won the auction, Ron would have to pay the buyer's premium.

Ron then asked me if I would let him bid using my ID. After thinking it over, I agreed. My thinking at the time was that Ron was not going to consign the set anyhow without a de facto reserve (so that there really was no scenario of a no reserve auction where someone could have won the set for a pittance), and that because Ron was going to have to pay the buyer's premium if the bid from my account won, the result would be the same as if I paid for the set and then flipped it back to Ron.

As it turned out, Ron's fear was correct and the bid from my account was high bid, even though Ron had hoped the set might go much higher and in fact sold it for 20k more eventually. So he paid the premium and the set was returned to him. It worked out exactly the same as if there had been a reserve, or higher opening bid. No victim. Nobody "run up." To be clear, Ron had no idea who else had bid or whether they had placed a top all. I am pretty sure, by the way, that many of the lots identified by the government as allegedly involving shill bidding (including multiple lots consigned by other Net 54 board members whose names have not been mentioned yet) are of the same character. Some, on the other hand, doubtless are lots where Mastro and Allen knew the top alls and bid them up themselves, or told the consignor.

I understand there are different ways to view the transaction. We have, in fact, debated this issue before at least in the abstract. I understand the other side, and have no doubt many of you folks will vilify Ron and me. So be it. I have nothing to hide. And apologies for the delay in posting, but I needed to verify the facts with the consignor.

If you are going to vilify Ron, by the way, please be sure to include the other board members identified as consignors on multiple lots, it would be very unfair to single him out.

I agree with Pete on this one--thanks for the explanation, Pete!

Larry

[Kenny Cole]

Tom Morello is older than me but still way cooler...

Tom Morello is a guitar playing MF. He's awesome.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So does all of this light and noise change anything?

I'd had a couple of initial bids placed with Goldin prior to the list being posted here. I decided not to bid further after learning of his name being tagged as a shiller in the list.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Tom Morello is a guitar playing MF. He's awesome.

+1
I have seen him playing with Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band and he is an awesome guitar playing MF.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

I'd had a couple of initial bids placed with Goldin prior to the list being posted here. I decided not to bid further after learning of his name being tagged as a shiller in the list.

Bravo. In my estimation, that is exactly what should change. Even given the "stuff trumps all" mentality many of us have, I really can't see what sense it makes to bid in an auction with an accused shiller who won't even respond to the accusations.

I cut Dave Kohler out after he screwed Ryan, Dave Kohler, Dave Kohler, Dave Kohler (for Ryan ), because in my estimation, that situation was so obviously fraudulent that I couldn't even see another side. I counseled Ryan to sue his ass off. Ryan was nicer than I would have been. Since then I haven't even looked at one of his auctions. Nor have I missed it. I was sort of guarded about Goldin due to his past history, but I'm now out. I just really don't have time to buy from liars and thieves.

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Bravo. In my estimation, that is exactly what should change. Even given the "stuff trumps all" mentality many of us have, I really can't see what sense it makes to bid in an auction with an accused shiller who won't even respond to the accusations.

I cut Dave Kohler out after he screwed Ryan

Exactly right. And, I had almost forgotten about that sordid episode with SCP. Luckily, there are links

How to get ripped off by SCP Auctions & Sotheby's

bonus SCP thread: An open letter to SCP auctions

Sure, it was a 'long time ago'. Leopards change their spots.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So does all of this light and noise change anything?

If you're still placing max bids on proprietary AH software where you can't snipe, and the auctions ends multiple times past midnight, and the AH is affiliated with the shill list, you either need a stupidity intervention or you have so much money you don't care.

IMO, that was the case before and after this shill list. The never ending auctions is by design, so the AH can see your max bid. What else needs to happen before buyers figure this out?

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by bcornell

Exactly right. And, I had almost forgotten about that sordid episode with SCP. Luckily, there are links

How to get ripped off by SCP Auctions & Sotheby's

bonus SCP thread: An open letter to SCP auctions

Sure, it was a 'long time ago'. Leopards change their spots.

Wow. Absolute BS.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by bcornell

Exactly right. And, I had almost forgotten about that sordid episode with SCP. Luckily, there are links

How to get ripped off by SCP Auctions & Sotheby's

bonus SCP thread: An open letter to SCP auctions

Sure, it was a 'long time ago'. Leopards change their spots.

Thank you Bill. Given this conversation it deserves to be brought up.

[TheNightmanCometh]

Originally Posted by bcornell

Exactly right. And, I had almost forgotten about that sordid episode with SCP. Luckily, there are links

How to get ripped off by SCP Auctions & Sotheby's

bonus SCP thread: An open letter to SCP auctions

Sure, it was a 'long time ago'. Leopards change their spots.

I'm sure the answer is no, but was the issue with the photo ever resolved?

[SyrNy1960]

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Beastmode

IMO, that was the case before and after this shill list. The never ending auctions is by design, so the AH can see your max bid. What else needs to happen before buyers figure this out?

I left 3 max bids with Sterling last night around midnight. Woke up this morning to find I was outbid on one. The other two didn't have another bid placed on them after my bids, and were multiple bids shorts of my max.

[Snapolit1]

Same here. That's what will make me come back to an AH. I won't get into bidding wars with any place linked to fraud. Won't do it. Not saying I will never bid on their stuff, but will be very cognizant that the person bidding against me could be a fraud.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by TheNightmanCometh

I'm sure the answer is no, but was the issue with the photo ever resolved?

No.

[batsballsbases]

I always wondered how much extra these and many other items cost me thru the years. Maybe one day I will get my answer... Note the owner of these. Like many and myself have said I do hope they show years above 2009.

[RichardSimon]

I guess all we can do is speculate about what might have went on when "Mr. Mastro, prison inmate" sold his personal collection.

[begsu1013]

i got one simple question for those who got shilled...

WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO DO ABOUT IT?

again, i never really purchased from ah's. luckily i'm lazy, unwilling to learn 30 different user ids and passwords or bid in 15 min spans after the auction closes or any of that absolute bs, but...

I can guaranfntee that if I was "just another victim" of the sgc owner and his brother that i would be down in boca raton right now w/ a fully charged iphone, videoing him get served w/ suit right in the middle of church this sunday. the proof is literally right in front of you.

obviously allen and maestro are turnips at this point, but aren't there a lot of folks that are still major players in the auction/fraud game!

so, again. and instead of posting on a message board about how crooked they are and how all of this is a travesty...

what are you prepared to do?

or more importantly what ARE you doing besides typing/talking on some forum?

[jason.1969]

Sounds like the bidders some of you competed against into the wee hours were as real as the Ashley Madison babes other dudes were staying up late with!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

so, again. and instead of posting on a message board about how crooked they are and how all of this is a travesty...

what are you prepared to do?

or more importantly what ARE you doing besides typing/talking on some forum?

I'm changing my bidding habits and will from now on only bid incrementally (never again will I place a maximum bid.) I'm having conversations within and outside this forum to determine which AH I feel I can trust (there are some.)

As to punishing the offenders, I'll leave that up to the FBI and the courts.

People posting on these message boards about their various experiences is helpful to me in determining who I want to do business with in the future. This is a useful topic to discuss, and WAY better than not discussing it at all, pretending it doesn't exist, or trying to stifle the conversation.

And the biggest thing I've learned is, thank goodness for net54, because Leon is the ONLY owner of a major hobby site that I know of, who is allowing the conversation. This, despite several posters using the opportunity to attack him personally.

I value the concept of free speech pretty highly (as with other basic essential rights we must all have to live in a free society,) and I also value the concept of ownership, and the fact that Leon, or any site owner, has the right to delete posts and ban members as he chooses. So, when he chooses to allow us to openly discuss this, and he allows several people to use the opportunity to attack him personally, I think it's pretty significant.

I used to spend 80% of my hobby blog time on another site and occasionally checked things out here. That has dramatically changed. I've lost a lot of respect for that other site, the way they've shut down this conversation, and I've developed a lot of respect for the owner of this site.

So... that's doing things and making tangible changes.

[keithsky]

At almost 800 posts you can see this topic is affecting all of us. Some of the post on here have gotten off topic but quickly gets back on tract. I also give Leon credit for letting everyone voice there opinion on this even if it he has taken jabs personally at him which he has taken it well and could have easily deleted it but hasn't, so kudos to him. Guys are concerned about the shilling going on and when you go on other sites, people have said they have deleted posts. If your on that list why not make a small comment about it. If people were making statements about me I think I would defend myself. I think most guys on the list that haven't made a comment are just waiting for things to die down and go away. Like most things people move on and forget or let it go and in my opinion in a few weeks there won't be anymore posts on this as it will run it's coarse and those guys won't have to worry about it anymore at least for the time being. I hope the topic stays alive and we all need to police the hobby. Thanks Leon for letting us vent.

[Rich Klein]

There is a thread still open on Beckett but because the audience is far different, that thread went nowhere

http://www.beckett.com/forums/thread-1580531.html

Rich

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

luckily i'm lazy, unwilling to learn 30 different user ids and passwords

Dashlane.com

great password/wallet software and it is free for your PC.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Dashlane.com



great password/wallet software and it is free for your PC.

LastPass is my password manager of choice. It also works with my iPhone - I can log into websites with my fingerprint (Touch ID).