the list (of criminals) is revealed

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

That is not my experience, Larry. Most times I have a pretty concrete budget I can work with for an auction. I have often gone into OT with high bids on several lots that were later knocked out, leaving me with available cash but nothing to bid on even though there were items I would have bid on otherwise. Conversely, in an auction like Sterling where all lots close at the same time, I have successfully shifted my 'action' to alternative lots when the ones I was high bidder on fell out.

ETA: Tom Morello is older than me but still way cooler...

That is good for you if you want to stay up all night. You ignore the people who go to bed with the high bid, but get sniped by someone who stays up all night. The consignor ends up losing money because one of his bidders is asleep and can't respond to the higher bid. Those auction houses that want all lots open to 4am are losing my business. I am more than happy to give my business to those like Heritage who close lots with no bids for 30 minutes or by live auction. It is not worth my time to sit around waiting to see if I get out bid.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by rats60

That is good for you if you want to stay up all night. You ignore the people who go to bed with the high bid, but get sniped by someone who stays up all night. The consignor ends up losing money because one of his bidders is asleep and can't respond to the higher bid. Those auction houses that want all lots open to 4am are losing my business. I am more than happy to give my business to those like Heritage who close lots with no bids for 30 minutes or by live auction. It is not worth my time to sit around waiting to see if I get out bid.

Agree.

Hunt Auctions works like that too and I love it. I place early initial bids on the lots I'm interested in and then on the final night it's easy to manage my budget. As each lot closes, I know I either won it or I didn't, so then I can proceed to the next lot (or go to bed, having spent my budget.)

I couldn't just put max bids on all four or five lots and then get to sleep, because I couldn't afford to win them all.

[1880nonsports]

that outbid might just be at the hands of the "house". If you knew that - it might not feel that good.

"I am more than happy to give my business to those like Heritage who close lots with no bids for 30 minutes or by live auction. It is not worth my time to sit around waiting to see if I get out bid."

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by rats60

That is good for you if you want to stay up all night. You ignore the people who go to bed with the high bid, but get sniped by someone who stays up all night. The consignor ends up losing money because one of his bidders is asleep and can't respond to the higher bid. Those auction houses that want all lots open to 4am are losing my business. I am more than happy to give my business to those like Heritage who close lots with no bids for 30 minutes or by live auction. It is not worth my time to sit around waiting to see if I get out bid.

While I 100% agree that the 30 min. per lot rule is much better, I'm a little surprised that you'd state -- in a thread about shill bidding -- that you prefer to give your business to an AH whose rules state the consignor may bid on their own items and the AH itself reserves the right to bid on "undervalued" lots.

[WindyCityGameUsed]

I for one would like to thank Leon for having the courage to keep this thread open.

I would imagine its not easy to stand TALL and not cave against the not so unwritten code of silence that these AH scoundrels pressure others into doing if they even think of breaking ranks.

When an auction house such as Goldin can take control over a supposed collectors site for the explicit purpose of self promotion and silencing critics all hobbyists should wonder why and have concern as members of GUU & GUC are finding out.

Its apparent that collusion is alive and well with all participants bottom line benefiting economically.

The lights have gone on again in the industry and rest assured the roaches are scurrying around looking for cover back in the darkness and I for one choose the light of day.

Ron Kosiewicz

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

I for 1 would like to thank Leon for having the courage to keep this thread open.

I would imagine its not easy to stand TALL and not cave against the not so unwritten code of science that these AH scoundrels pressure others into doing if they even think of breaking ranks.

When an auction house such as Goldin can take control over a supposed collectors site for the explicit purpose of self promotion and silencing critics all hobbyists should wonder why and have concern as members of GUU & GUC are finding out.

Its apparent that collusion is alive and well with all participants bottom line benefiting vastly economically.

The light have gone on again in the industry and you can rest assured that the roaches are scurrying around looking for cover back in the darkness and I for 1 choose the light of day.

Ron Kosiewicz

Great post. If not for Leon's willingness, and I would say encouragement, for this topic to be thoroughly discussed, on what other forum could we do this?

I was just on another hobby forum site, reading a new post on this topic, and when I went back a few minutes later, that post had been deleted. Apparently, talking about this in the "wrong" way is not allowed in some venues...

To quote Voltaire: "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

[HRBAKER]

So does all of this light and noise change anything?

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So does all of this light and noise change anything?

Hi Jeff,

Great question.

I truly believe it will change things. However, the breadth and depth of change that will result from this is clearly uncertain. There will be some people who do nothing, and others who use the now-public information to avoid doing business with all of those upon whom a negative light has been cast. Everyone else will fall somewhere in between, tailoring their response to this news in the manner which personally suits them best.

I do believe one thing is reasonable to presume. There are quite a few hobbyists who will approach auctions with a greater amount of care, caution, and due diligence. At least, they will for a while.

My sincere hope is that this occurrence serves as the starting point for sustained pressure on all auction houses to ensure fair, transparent, arms-length transactions. This also applies to other platforms where an auction format is offered. And yes, I'm looking at you, eBay.

Again, great question. Please know that my response was meant to add to an ongoing conversation, and I am not directing negativity towards you or any particular person.

Best regards,

Eric

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So does all of this light and noise change anything?

The majority of change IMO will have to come at the hands of the FBI (who do by the way watch these forums) because these Turds will not be stopping on their own.

Their is 2 much $$$ at stake and the level of greed is 2 great 4 the powers that be 2 change on their own since Bill Mastro apparently was the baby daddy industry model for the bad behavior employed industry wide (Doctored cards, created/fake GU, shilling)

Nothing is given without U fighting for it and at this point its more about standing up for whats rite until the authorities take further action.

I personally try to avoid auctions when sourcing my GU after being shilled in probably every 1 I've ever participated in.

The surface has only been scratched here shilling is easier for the FBI 2 bust unlike the wave of created/fake GU or spec correct never worn passed off as GU sold in just about every auction I've ever looked at.

With all the companies running auctions on such a frequent basis does anyone truly believe that there is that much real quality items out there that aren't buried in someones collection?

Outright fake & misrepresented shit is as much apart of the hobby as shilling

Ron Kosiewicz

[dhernandez]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

The majority of change IMO will have to come at the hands of the FBI (who do by the way watch these forums) because these Turds will not be stopping on their own.

Their is 2 much $$$ at stake and the level of greed is 2 great 4 the powers that be 2 change on their own since Bill Mastro apparently was the baby daddy industry model for the bad behavior employed industry wide (Doctored cards, created/fake GU, shilling)

Nothing is given without U fighting for it and at this point its more about standing up for whats rite until the authorities take further action.

I personally try to avoid auctions when sourcing my GU after being shilled in probably every 1 I've ever participated in.

The surface has only been scratched here shilling is easier for the FBI 2 bust unlike the wave of created/fake GU or spec correct never worn passed off as GU sold in just about every auction I've ever looked at.

With all the companies running auctions on such a frequent basis does anyone truly believe that there is that much real quality items out there that aren't buried in someones collection?

Outright fake & misrepresented shit is as much apart of the hobby as shilling

Ron Kosiewicz

Ron makes a very valid point in that shilling is not the only problem area with auction houses. He addresses "outright fakes and misrepresentation items" in which I would agree that this is actually worse than shilling. For example if I was a Art Auction house and was offering a Monet original art piece and I knew the piece was a forgery, is that not worse than fake bidding it up?

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So does all of this light and noise change anything?

I'd had a couple of initial bids placed with Goldin prior to the list being posted here. I decided not to bid further after learning of his name being tagged as a shiller in the list.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

I'd had a couple of initial bids placed with Goldin prior to the list being posted here. I decided not to bid further after learning of his name being tagged as a shiller in the list.

Bravo. In my estimation, that is exactly what should change. Even given the "stuff trumps all" mentality many of us have, I really can't see what sense it makes to bid in an auction with an accused shiller who won't even respond to the accusations.

I cut Dave Kohler out after he screwed Ryan, Dave Kohler, Dave Kohler, Dave Kohler (for Ryan ), because in my estimation, that situation was so obviously fraudulent that I couldn't even see another side. I counseled Ryan to sue his ass off. Ryan was nicer than I would have been. Since then I haven't even looked at one of his auctions. Nor have I missed it. I was sort of guarded about Goldin due to his past history, but I'm now out. I just really don't have time to buy from liars and thieves.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So does all of this light and noise change anything?

If you're still placing max bids on proprietary AH software where you can't snipe, and the auctions ends multiple times past midnight, and the AH is affiliated with the shill list, you either need a stupidity intervention or you have so much money you don't care.

IMO, that was the case before and after this shill list. The never ending auctions is by design, so the AH can see your max bid. What else needs to happen before buyers figure this out?

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Beastmode

IMO, that was the case before and after this shill list. The never ending auctions is by design, so the AH can see your max bid. What else needs to happen before buyers figure this out?

I left 3 max bids with Sterling last night around midnight. Woke up this morning to find I was outbid on one. The other two didn't have another bid placed on them after my bids, and were multiple bids shorts of my max.

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Great post. If not for Leon's willingness, and I would say encouragement, for this topic to be thoroughly discussed, on what other forum could we do this?

I was just on another hobby forum site, reading a new post on this topic, and when I went back a few minutes later, that post had been deleted. Apparently, talking about this in the "wrong" way is not allowed in some venues...

To quote Voltaire: "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

No need to state which Forum. The Obvious is duely noted.
"Censorship:Protection From Reality"

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Great post. If not for Leon's willingness, and I would say encouragement, for this topic to be thoroughly discussed, on what other forum could we do this?

I was just on another hobby forum site, reading a new post on this topic, and when I went back a few minutes later, that post had been deleted. Apparently, talking about this in the "wrong" way is not allowed in some venues...

To quote Voltaire: "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

Sad but spot on.

The self proclaimed "Friend of the Collector" has dispatched both the Goldin Mossad and the paid help to put GUU on information lockdown in regards to his reported misdeeds 24/7.

Mods lights on that thread never go off with any posts that aren't from fan boys and/or are critical of his holiness are deleted within minutes of being posted with some members I hear being banned for nothing more than trying to discuss the matter.

Sum of the self important/entitled in this racket seem 2 forget that without US there is no them

[1880nonsports]

and suppression on another forum should have it's own thread. It's important if it's important to the community at large and I think it is - but I think in this thread perhaps it detracts a bit from the core issues regarding shilling and obfuscation. Just one man's opinion and nothing against the spirit of your concerns.

[mickeymao34]

The "Holiness" in question is on Consign/shill list and is owner and chief of that closed society. Thus, indeed does have merit being a owner of a AH. The recent posts on that "closed" society is robotic and too the (his) point. The people posting obviosly are plants" of Dear Leader. It's like reading transcripts from tonight's N.Korean news agency.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by rats60

That is good for you if you want to stay up all night. You ignore the people who go to bed with the high bid, but get sniped by someone who stays up all night. The consignor ends up losing money because one of his bidders is asleep and can't respond to the higher bid. Those auction houses that want all lots open to 4am are losing my business. I am more than happy to give my business to those like Heritage who close lots with no bids for 30 minutes or by live auction. It is not worth my time to sit around waiting to see if I get out bid.

Wrong answer. If the auction closing time is the issue, set a firm closing time, say midnight, but close all lots at the same time so anyone who is topped on a lot during OT can reroute to the next lot on his list. I reiterate: any time you close lots individually you cost the consignor money if there is someone who would have bid on a lot once he was beaten on a more desirable lot but was shut out because some lots closed earlier than others. I have been that someone more than once.

And as others have pointed out, the rules at Heritage allow for bidding practices that may result in a price being run up:

"The Auctioneer, its affiliates, or their employees consign items to be sold in the Auction, and may bid on those lots or any other lots."
"If a lot bearing estimates fails to open for 40–60% of the low estimate, the Auctioneer may pass the item or may place a protective bid on behalf of the consignor."

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Administrator

Some additional upgrades have just been made to the forum! Here are 2 big improvements we've made...

1) The Collector to Collector and Items Wanted section will now require member log in. As I'm sure many of you have experienced, there are a lot of lurkers on the forum. Personally I've always been caught off guard and cautious, when I'm approached about an item by a non-member. Buying and selling should feel safe. We firmly believe that only members should benefit from this unique, free venue to buy, sell and trade.

2) You will now be able to edit your own posts. You can edit your posts for about 10 minutes after you've submitted them. I know this has long been a heartburn for members. This will allow you time to correct errors or add additional information.

As always, we'll keep looking for ways to improve your experience. Thank you to all the members that have suggested these two important updates.

Doug Reiser


If I showed up on a shit list I would think I would have better things to do than have my pet monkeys pulling chains

This from a henchman who never once posted memorabilia or probably collects anything except $$$$$$$

"Lurkers" LMFAAAAAOOOOO

Ron Kosiewicz

[chitown-authentics]

Hahahahahahahahhahaa!!!!!!

[chitown-authentics]

That was some funny shit!!!!Great Pic!!!!LMFAO!!!!

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

Administrator

Some additional upgrades have just been made to the forum! Here are 2 big improvements we've made...

1) The Collector to Collector and Items Wanted section will now require member log in. As I'm sure many of you have experienced, there are a lot of lurkers on the forum. Personally I've always been caught off guard and cautious, when I'm approached about an item by a non-member. Buying and selling should feel safe. We firmly believe that only members should benefit from this unique, free venue to buy, sell and trade.

2) You will now be able to edit your own posts. You can edit your posts for about 10 minutes after you've submitted them. I know this has long been a heartburn for members. This will allow you time to correct errors or add additional information.

As always, we'll keep looking for ways to improve your experience. Thank you to all the members that have suggested these two important updates.

Doug Reiser


If I showed up on a shit list I would think I would have better things to do than have my pet monkeys pulling chains

This from a henchman who never once posted memorabilia or probably collects anything except $$$$$$$

"Lurkers" LMFAAAAAOOOOO

Ron Kosiewicz

[dhernandez]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

Administrator

Some additional upgrades have just been made to the forum! Here are 2 big improvements we've made...

1) The Collector to Collector and Items Wanted section will now require member log in. As I'm sure many of you have experienced, there are a lot of lurkers on the forum. Personally I've always been caught off guard and cautious, when I'm approached about an item by a non-member. Buying and selling should feel safe. We firmly believe that only members should benefit from this unique, free venue to buy, sell and trade.

2) You will now be able to edit your own posts. You can edit your posts for about 10 minutes after you've submitted them. I know this has long been a heartburn for members. This will allow you time to correct errors or add additional information.

As always, we'll keep looking for ways to improve your experience. Thank you to all the members that have suggested these two important updates.

Doug Reiser


If I showed up on a shit list I would think I would have better things to do than have my pet monkeys pulling chains

This from a henchman who never once posted memorabilia or probably collects anything except $$$$$$$

"Lurkers" LMFAAAAAOOOOO

Ron Kosiewicz

this is Hilarious
in pic: da rev and Mr.Muggs aka ______________ (fill in the blank)

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by dhernandez

this is Hilarious
in pic: da rev and Mr.Muggs aka ______________ (fill in the blank)

Spot on Brody

I found another picture from the Clown College yearbook of papa with his #1 trained monkey

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

Spot on Brody

I found another picture from the Clown College yearbook of papa with his #1 trained monkey

Martin N Lewis was one of the sickest comedy teams in the biz!

[dhernandez]

In light of "The List" being revealed. Does this open letter make everyone feel better?

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Wrong answer. If the auction closing time is the issue, set a firm closing time, say midnight, but close all lots at the same time so anyone who is topped on a lot during OT can reroute to the next lot on his list. I reiterate: any time you close lots individually you cost the consignor money if there is someone who would have bid on a lot once he was beaten on a more desirable lot but was shut out because some lots closed earlier than others. I have been that someone more than once.

And as others have pointed out, the rules at Heritage allow for bidding practices that may result in a price being run up:

"The Auctioneer, its affiliates, or their employees consign items to be sold in the Auction, and may bid on those lots or any other lots."
"If a lot bearing estimates fails to open for 40–60% of the low estimate, the Auctioneer may pass the item or may place a protective bid on behalf of the consignor."

There's no perfect format and I think each closing method can result in a bidder getting hosed:

1. Close lots individually - may result in money allocated for auction not being spent due to some auctions of interest closing and then not winning later lots. May miss lots if you don't realize the auction is a lot by lot closing and log in later.

2. Allow auctions to go late until bidding slows - may result in unscrupulous AHs bumping up bids to your Max bids if they know what those are. Also doesn't allow bidders to change their mind on their "max" after they are outbid and asleep. Also hard for those on the east coast with jobs outside the hobby.

3. Close at a set time - lots and lots of snipes at the last minute that doesn't allow someone to change their max and bid more later. Also may surprise bidders who don't realize there is a set close time.

My personal preference from a bidders perspective is:
Approach 3, 1, 2.

I've never seen any research or studies that say one of these approaches is better/worse for consigners than the others. The general perception is that letting the auction run all the way to its inevitable end is best for consigners but, again, never seen any research that says this is true.

jeff

[SyrNy1960]

.