the list (of criminals) is revealed

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

I for 1 would like to thank Leon for having the courage to keep this thread open.

I would imagine its not easy to stand TALL and not cave against the not so unwritten code of science that these AH scoundrels pressure others into doing if they even think of breaking ranks.

When an auction house such as Goldin can take control over a supposed collectors site for the explicit purpose of self promotion and silencing critics all hobbyists should wonder why and have concern as members of GUU & GUC are finding out.

Its apparent that collusion is alive and well with all participants bottom line benefiting vastly economically.

The light have gone on again in the industry and you can rest assured that the roaches are scurrying around looking for cover back in the darkness and I for 1 choose the light of day.

Ron Kosiewicz

Great post. If not for Leon's willingness, and I would say encouragement, for this topic to be thoroughly discussed, on what other forum could we do this?

I was just on another hobby forum site, reading a new post on this topic, and when I went back a few minutes later, that post had been deleted. Apparently, talking about this in the "wrong" way is not allowed in some venues...

To quote Voltaire: "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

[HRBAKER]

So does all of this light and noise change anything?

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So does all of this light and noise change anything?

Hi Jeff,

Great question.

I truly believe it will change things. However, the breadth and depth of change that will result from this is clearly uncertain. There will be some people who do nothing, and others who use the now-public information to avoid doing business with all of those upon whom a negative light has been cast. Everyone else will fall somewhere in between, tailoring their response to this news in the manner which personally suits them best.

I do believe one thing is reasonable to presume. There are quite a few hobbyists who will approach auctions with a greater amount of care, caution, and due diligence. At least, they will for a while.

My sincere hope is that this occurrence serves as the starting point for sustained pressure on all auction houses to ensure fair, transparent, arms-length transactions. This also applies to other platforms where an auction format is offered. And yes, I'm looking at you, eBay.

Again, great question. Please know that my response was meant to add to an ongoing conversation, and I am not directing negativity towards you or any particular person.

Best regards,

Eric

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So does all of this light and noise change anything?

The majority of change IMO will have to come at the hands of the FBI (who do by the way watch these forums) because these Turds will not be stopping on their own.

Their is 2 much $$$ at stake and the level of greed is 2 great 4 the powers that be 2 change on their own since Bill Mastro apparently was the baby daddy industry model for the bad behavior employed industry wide (Doctored cards, created/fake GU, shilling)

Nothing is given without U fighting for it and at this point its more about standing up for whats rite until the authorities take further action.

I personally try to avoid auctions when sourcing my GU after being shilled in probably every 1 I've ever participated in.

The surface has only been scratched here shilling is easier for the FBI 2 bust unlike the wave of created/fake GU or spec correct never worn passed off as GU sold in just about every auction I've ever looked at.

With all the companies running auctions on such a frequent basis does anyone truly believe that there is that much real quality items out there that aren't buried in someones collection?

Outright fake & misrepresented shit is as much apart of the hobby as shilling

Ron Kosiewicz

[dhernandez]

Originally Posted by WindyCityGameUsed

The majority of change IMO will have to come at the hands of the FBI (who do by the way watch these forums) because these Turds will not be stopping on their own.

Their is 2 much $$$ at stake and the level of greed is 2 great 4 the powers that be 2 change on their own since Bill Mastro apparently was the baby daddy industry model for the bad behavior employed industry wide (Doctored cards, created/fake GU, shilling)

Nothing is given without U fighting for it and at this point its more about standing up for whats rite until the authorities take further action.

I personally try to avoid auctions when sourcing my GU after being shilled in probably every 1 I've ever participated in.

The surface has only been scratched here shilling is easier for the FBI 2 bust unlike the wave of created/fake GU or spec correct never worn passed off as GU sold in just about every auction I've ever looked at.

With all the companies running auctions on such a frequent basis does anyone truly believe that there is that much real quality items out there that aren't buried in someones collection?

Outright fake & misrepresented shit is as much apart of the hobby as shilling

Ron Kosiewicz

Ron makes a very valid point in that shilling is not the only problem area with auction houses. He addresses "outright fakes and misrepresentation items" in which I would agree that this is actually worse than shilling. For example if I was a Art Auction house and was offering a Monet original art piece and I knew the piece was a forgery, is that not worse than fake bidding it up?

[drcy]

As I say, if you identify a seller doing one deceptive thing, they are more than probably doing other deceptive things. The sole motive of scammers is to maximize profits.

When you identify a seller doing something highly unethical or highly deceptive you can't knowingly identify all the unethical and deceptive (and perhaps illegal) methods they are using, you just know they are an unethical or deceptive seller. And that should be enough.

That's why I roll my eyes when people on Net54 in effect say "I know this eBay seller is selling items he knows are fake and that he may have made himself, but other items look good and I'm going to bid on those." I think "With all the good sellers out there, why they Hell are you choosing to buy from a seller who you know is trying to scam buyers? . . . And are you then going to come back to this board and complain that the item you bought from him was fake, altered or his his shipping rates were too high or that he may have shilled you or the description turned out not to be entirely accurate? Are you going to say 'I knew he was forger, but how was I supposed to know he'd lie about the provenance and use deceptive pictures?'"

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by drcy

As I say, if you identify a seller doing one deceptive thing, they are more than probably doing other deceptive things. The sole motive of scammers is to maximize profits.

When you identify a seller doing something highly unethical or highly deceptive you can't knowingly identify all the unethical and deceptive (and perhaps illegal) methods they are using, you just know they are an unethical or deceptive seller. And that should be enough.

That's why I think it's idiotic when people on Net54 in effect say "I know this eBay seller is selling items he knows are fake and that he may have made himself, but other items look good and I'm going to bid on those." I think "With all the good sellers out there, why they Hell are you choosing to buy from a seller who you know is trying to scam buyers? . . . And are you going to come back to this board and complain that the item you bought from him was fake, altered or his his shipping rates were too high or that he may have shilled you or the description turned out not to be entirely accurate?"

drcy-----GREAT POINT

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by drcy

As I say, if you identify a seller doing one deceptive thing, they are more than probably doing other deceptive things. The sole motive of scammers is to maximize profits.

When you identify a seller doing something highly unethical or highly deceptive you can't knowingly identify all the unethical and deceptive (and perhaps illegal) methods they are using, you just know they are an unethical or deceptive seller. And that should be enough.

That's why I roll my eyes when people on Net54 in effect say "I know this eBay seller is selling items he knows are fake and that he may have made himself, but other items look good and I'm going to bid on those." I think "With all the good sellers out there, why they Hell are you choosing to buy from a seller who you know is trying to scam buyers? . . . And are you then going to come back to this board and complain that the item you bought from him was fake, altered or his his shipping rates were too high or that he may have shilled you or the description turned out not to be entirely accurate? Are you going to say 'I knew he was forger, but how was I supposed to know he'd lie about the provenance and use deceptive pictures?'"

Great post.\edit

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by drcy

I think "With all the good sellers out there, why they Hell are you choosing to buy from a seller who you know is trying to scam buyers? . . ."

Because when it comes down to it, if a bad or dishonest seller has something a person wants to add to their collection, they will push honesty, integrity, and ethics to the side, because they want it. Not sure if anyone could stop that from happening.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by 3arod13

Because when it comes down to it, if a bad or dishonest seller has something a person wants to add to their collection, they will push honesty, integrity, and ethics to the side, because they want it. Not sure if anyone could stop that from happening.

Why not, you can't simply refuse to bid?
This is not food and water we are talking about here, it's pictures of dead men on cardboard for the most part. At some point, if you keep getting in line to get peed on you shouldn't complain about getting wet.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by 3arod13

Because when it comes down to it, if a bad or dishonest seller has something a person wants to add to their collection, they will push honesty, integrity, and ethics to the side, because they want it. Not sure if anyone could stop that from happening.

I use a different logic and say a good method to help avoid purchasing forgeries is to not buy from forgers.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So does all of this light and noise change anything?

I'd had a couple of initial bids placed with Goldin prior to the list being posted here. I decided not to bid further after learning of his name being tagged as a shiller in the list.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

I'd had a couple of initial bids placed with Goldin prior to the list being posted here. I decided not to bid further after learning of his name being tagged as a shiller in the list.

Bravo. In my estimation, that is exactly what should change. Even given the "stuff trumps all" mentality many of us have, I really can't see what sense it makes to bid in an auction with an accused shiller who won't even respond to the accusations.

I cut Dave Kohler out after he screwed Ryan, Dave Kohler, Dave Kohler, Dave Kohler (for Ryan ), because in my estimation, that situation was so obviously fraudulent that I couldn't even see another side. I counseled Ryan to sue his ass off. Ryan was nicer than I would have been. Since then I haven't even looked at one of his auctions. Nor have I missed it. I was sort of guarded about Goldin due to his past history, but I'm now out. I just really don't have time to buy from liars and thieves.

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Bravo. In my estimation, that is exactly what should change. Even given the "stuff trumps all" mentality many of us have, I really can't see what sense it makes to bid in an auction with an accused shiller who won't even respond to the accusations.

I cut Dave Kohler out after he screwed Ryan

Exactly right. And, I had almost forgotten about that sordid episode with SCP. Luckily, there are links

How to get ripped off by SCP Auctions & Sotheby's

bonus SCP thread: An open letter to SCP auctions

Sure, it was a 'long time ago'. Leopards change their spots.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by bcornell

Exactly right. And, I had almost forgotten about that sordid episode with SCP. Luckily, there are links

How to get ripped off by SCP Auctions & Sotheby's

bonus SCP thread: An open letter to SCP auctions

Sure, it was a 'long time ago'. Leopards change their spots.

Wow. Absolute BS.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by bcornell

Exactly right. And, I had almost forgotten about that sordid episode with SCP. Luckily, there are links

How to get ripped off by SCP Auctions & Sotheby's

bonus SCP thread: An open letter to SCP auctions

Sure, it was a 'long time ago'. Leopards change their spots.

Thank you Bill. Given this conversation it deserves to be brought up.

[TheNightmanCometh]

Originally Posted by bcornell

Exactly right. And, I had almost forgotten about that sordid episode with SCP. Luckily, there are links

How to get ripped off by SCP Auctions & Sotheby's

bonus SCP thread: An open letter to SCP auctions

Sure, it was a 'long time ago'. Leopards change their spots.

I'm sure the answer is no, but was the issue with the photo ever resolved?

[SyrNy1960]

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by TheNightmanCometh

I'm sure the answer is no, but was the issue with the photo ever resolved?

No.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So does all of this light and noise change anything?

If you're still placing max bids on proprietary AH software where you can't snipe, and the auctions ends multiple times past midnight, and the AH is affiliated with the shill list, you either need a stupidity intervention or you have so much money you don't care.

IMO, that was the case before and after this shill list. The never ending auctions is by design, so the AH can see your max bid. What else needs to happen before buyers figure this out?

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Beastmode

IMO, that was the case before and after this shill list. The never ending auctions is by design, so the AH can see your max bid. What else needs to happen before buyers figure this out?

I left 3 max bids with Sterling last night around midnight. Woke up this morning to find I was outbid on one. The other two didn't have another bid placed on them after my bids, and were multiple bids shorts of my max.

[Snapolit1]

Same here. That's what will make me come back to an AH. I won't get into bidding wars with any place linked to fraud. Won't do it. Not saying I will never bid on their stuff, but will be very cognizant that the person bidding against me could be a fraud.

[mickeymao34]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Great post. If not for Leon's willingness, and I would say encouragement, for this topic to be thoroughly discussed, on what other forum could we do this?

I was just on another hobby forum site, reading a new post on this topic, and when I went back a few minutes later, that post had been deleted. Apparently, talking about this in the "wrong" way is not allowed in some venues...

To quote Voltaire: "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

No need to state which Forum. The Obvious is duely noted.
"Censorship:Protection From Reality"

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Great post. If not for Leon's willingness, and I would say encouragement, for this topic to be thoroughly discussed, on what other forum could we do this?

I was just on another hobby forum site, reading a new post on this topic, and when I went back a few minutes later, that post had been deleted. Apparently, talking about this in the "wrong" way is not allowed in some venues...

To quote Voltaire: "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

Sad but spot on.

The self proclaimed "Friend of the Collector" has dispatched both the Goldin Mossad and the paid help to put GUU on information lockdown in regards to his reported misdeeds 24/7.

Mods lights on that thread never go off with any posts that aren't from fan boys and/or are critical of his holiness are deleted within minutes of being posted with some members I hear being banned for nothing more than trying to discuss the matter.

Sum of the self important/entitled in this racket seem 2 forget that without US there is no them

[1880nonsports]

and suppression on another forum should have it's own thread. It's important if it's important to the community at large and I think it is - but I think in this thread perhaps it detracts a bit from the core issues regarding shilling and obfuscation. Just one man's opinion and nothing against the spirit of your concerns.

[mickeymao34]

The "Holiness" in question is on Consign/shill list and is owner and chief of that closed society. Thus, indeed does have merit being a owner of a AH. The recent posts on that "closed" society is robotic and too the (his) point. The people posting obviosly are plants" of Dear Leader. It's like reading transcripts from tonight's N.Korean news agency.