T206 Wagner partial back. Really Huggins & Scott?

[wonkaticket]

Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere.

As a bit of a T206 nut and guy who tends to stray down the path of the crazy T206 errors and back hype. Heck I even tried to buy the "Blue" Old Mill so I'm one to talk.

I just find this more than a bit silly….and a real stretch. If not Huggins making the leap what consignor spun this hope and dream story? Makes you wonder.

With no real true sheet this is nothing more than a purchase of faith IMO. Sometimes we deserve to be made fun of as T206 guys.

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=63340

Cheers,

John

P.S. I guess this Bowerman was next to all the other machine or non-handcut cut Piedmont Wagner’s we have floating around.

[E93]

Ridiculous!
JimB

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by e93

ridiculous!
Jimb

x 2

[tbob]

Originally Posted by E93

Ridiculous!
JimB

+1. I thought this was a joke when I first start reading this thread.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by tbob

+1. I thought this was a joke when I first start reading this thread.

You were right the first time. It is a joke.

[bn2cardz]

It was discussed but the thread had a very cryptic title so it would have been easily overlooked:

"Strech"

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

It was discussed but the thread had a very cryptic title so it would have been easily overlooked:

"Strech"

There you go, thanks Andy.So I did double dip dang it! I will raise this question of folks since I started a non-needed thread.

At some point shouldn’t an auction house make some effort to limit stuff like this? I expect this stuff on eBay from some guy who has a few cards trying to make the most out of nothing. I don’t however expect to see this from a reputable auction house. Maybe that’s just me.

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

There you go, thanks Andy.So I did double dip dang it! I will raise this question of folks since I started a non-needed thread.

At some point shouldn’t an auction house make some effort to limit stuff like this? I expect this stuff on eBay from some guy who has a few cards trying to make the most out of nothing. I don’t however expect to see this from a reputable auction house. Maybe that’s just me.

not just you john.

Make the most out of nothing... it think like you.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

There you go, thanks Andy.So I did double dip dang it! I will raise this question of folks since I started a non-needed thread.

At some point shouldn’t an auction house make some effort to limit stuff like this? I expect this stuff on eBay from some guy who has a few cards trying to make the most out of nothing. I don’t however expect to see this from a reputable auction house. Maybe that’s just me.

The market will decide.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Leon

The market will decide.

Leon, I disagree with you on this one, well half disagree.

While I agree the market will decide to a point. I think some accountability should be with the purveyors of the merchandise also. With a hobby that has newcomers who may not be aware of the nuances of certain issues and why something like the above isn’t a stretch but an almost total leap of blind faith for a myriad of reasons.

I think the first line of defense should be auctions houses looking to protect the hobby they benefit from. Not just playing a blind role and letting some sucker swallow a pill with the “hey we did our part or it’s not for us to decide” attitude. Bottom line if this was a guy on eBay or the BST we would be laughing and poking fun. For me there’s enough hobby knowledge around that most of us would never make such a claim about this card.

In the end for me personally I see these types of things as price tag in someone’s integrity and I see that H&S price starts at 5k opening bid. That’s just my view and respect others who may disagree with me.

Cheers,

John

[barrysloate]

Worth a fifty cent premium.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Leon, I disagree with you on this one, well half disagree.

While I agree the market will decide to a point. I think some accountability should be with the purveyors of the merchandise also. With a hobby that has newcomers who may not be aware of the nuances of certain issues and why something like the above isn’t a stretch but an almost total leap of blind faith for a myriad of reasons.

I think the first line of defense should be auctions houses looking to protect the hobby they benefit from. Not just playing a blind role and letting some sucker swallow a pill with the “hey we did our part or it’s not for us to decide” attitude. Bottom line if this was a guy on eBay or the BST we would be laughing and poking fun. For me there’s enough hobby knowledge around that most of us would never make such a claim about this card.

In the end for me personally I see these types of things as price tag in someone’s integrity and I see that H&S price starts at 5k opening bid. That’s just my view and respect others who may disagree with me.

Cheers,

John

If a newcomer spends 5k on this type of card then they should be able to handle whatever comes their way. If a used car salesman says the car was only driven by a little ole lady on Sundays...then the engine falls out going out of the used car parking lot, whose fault is that? It's called puffery and is part of sales. Caveat Emptor. And just because it's not on our BST is it really getting a free pass?

[ScottFandango]

is huggins and scott still associated with House of Cards in Maryland for tax benefits?

[bn2cardz]

I believe that the card should be listed as the card not what it could possibly be. If the cosignor requests the extra info be added it should be added within the description and clearly stated that it is added at the request of the cosignor that way the auction house isn't the one who looks like they are pulling one over on the collecting community. It is the title of the Auction that bothers me more than giving the extra bit of info. (Of course the price is a bit crazy to)

[ullmandds]

Personally...I think things like this reflect poorly on the auction site...and if I owned one...I would never partake in such nonsense.

[TUM301]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

personally...i think things like this reflect poorly on the auction site...and if i owned one...i would never partake in such nonsense.

b i n g o !!

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

There you go, thanks Andy.So I did double dip dang it! I will raise this question of folks since I started a non-needed thread.

On another baseball related board I belong to, such a thread (or post) is known as a "Molina".

A "Molina" is any post that is made or thread that is started that turns out to have been made "too slow" because a prior thread or post says the same exact thing. "Molina", of course, in honor of the group of brothers, some of whom are the slowest men in baseball.

Perhaps on this board we could call it something else. A Lombardi perhaps...although that could get confused with a certain Packer head coach. A "Schnozz" maybe?

Tom C

[yanks12025]

It does not sound to me like any one disagrees with the research - or the possibility of this being a partial Wagner back.

It sounds to me like some people are upset at the price that the card may bring. Collectors tend to get upset when prices go up, and they do not have the item in question. Are you telling me, that if you owned this card, you would simply sell it for whatever amount a T-206 common sells for? I find this hard to believe. I think you would attach some premium – and it is really the ‘premium’, the amount additional this card should be worth (because of the possibility), that is in question.

I agree with Leon. The market will decide.

[bobbyw8469]

I think you would attach some premium – and it is really the ‘premium’, the amount additional this card should be worth (because of the possibility), that is in question.

Complete BS. It is a fabricated premium. You might as well say ALL T206's are worth $5,000 minimum because they came from the same set as the Honus Wagner.

[ullmandds]

brock...are you looking at the same card here?

[wonkaticket]

Brock you nailed it, just sour grapes plain and simple. Good catch.

[t206fix]

My collection just took a huge upswing in price. I also have a pied 150 Brown, and if you look closely, his eyes are actually looking towards Honus (Three finger knew what was up!) so I'd be willing to let this one go for $2750....

[wonkaticket]

LOL, Tony.

[D. Bergin]

Honestly,this just seems like the evolution of T206 collecting to me. What with premiums for scraps, ghosts, missing colors, added colors, stray dots, missing dots, overprints, underprints, brown backs, brownish/blackish backs.

Always looking for the next big what if, or variation. Seems as if it was only a matter of time before somebody came up with something like this.

Any other set it would just be a miscut or off-center curiousity. Looks like you T206 guys just got what you were asking for.

.........and I'd wager whoever this "consignor" is, is most likely one of these advanced "collectors" you all know and love.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

It does not sound to me like any one disagrees with the research - or the possibility of this being a partial Wagner back.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (I may well be), but I thought all of the Piedmont Wagners are hand-cut. Since this particular Bowerman is factory-cut, wouldn't that preclude the card next to it from being Wagner?

Edited to add: (Or at least strongly argue against it.)

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (I may well be), but I thought all of the Piedmont Wagners are hand-cut. Since this particular Bowerman is factory-cut, wouldn't that preclude the card next to it from being Wagner?

Edited to add: (Or at least strongly argue against it.)

Yes correct hence my statement above Scott. We have no factory cut Wagners with Piedmont backs.

[bobbyw8469]

The bottom line is - is anyone here going to bid $5,000 for this $30 card!?!?!?!?!?! I can't wait to see the outcome of this auction!

[wonkaticket]

Brock, I haven’t typed why its way off as I figured it would be a waste of time as you seem to be way into the fantasy world of belief with the Huggins Team on this. The only argument that Huggins is hanging their hat on is that this card must have been next to the Wagner because of the strip that once belonged to Wagner.

That proof strip is very cool but in no way is a final production sheet clearly that can be seen from the graphic elements missing from the strip.

Using this to assume this is how the sheets were laid out. Let alone make the claim that a factory cut production card has remnants of Wagner’s back is an absolute leap of blind faith at best if you’re a collector. If you’re an auction house with any shred of integrity its downright glorified unfounded bull.

Brock reputable auction companies don’t do stuff like this. You will never see an 18th dynasty Egyptian artifact that looks high-end and might have come from a royal court. Try and tie the item to most likely but not for sure belonging to King Tutankhamun. With some drawn out story about how they have pictures of Lord Carnarvon and Howard Carter in the tomb with a similar item so this one could be Tut’s.

There are countless other little nuances and bits of info taken over the years from collectors who share knowledge much is right here on the board to read. All of these also put further death nails in this cocked up story spun by Huggins & Scott.

Hope this helps….

What a surprise this has ties to Patrick Chan even more reason to run for the hills on this epic yarn.

[sreader3]

Hi John,
Sorry, I didn't mean to be redundant. Must have missed your earlier statement to the same effect.
Scot

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Hi John,
Sorry, I didn't mean to be redundant. Must have missed your earlier statement to the same effect.
Scot

Scot, you have forgotten more about these cards than I know...the day you need to say sorry to me on T206 stuff...that's the day I pony up my opening bid of 5k on a "partial" Wagner Piedmont back.

No worries brother.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Yes correct hence my statement above Scott. We have no factory cut Wagners with Piedmont backs.

But there could be one in a closet somewhere, or in a parallel universe, so it's still POSSIBLE this is a sliver of a Wagner back.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But there could be one in a closet somewhere, or in a parallel universe, so it's still POSSIBLE this is a sliver of a Wagner back.

Peter, you're right what about an attic?

[yanks12025]

No.
I just don’t understand what all the hubbub is about, with the exception of the very funny and witty commentary.
I think the description is straight forward.
Actually I think it shows the strength and intelligence of the house to present the card in the manner in which they have. Straight forward and carefully worded, qualified, explained.
If you do not want to spend the money, then don’t bid.
I would rather have a card that is - possibly a partial Honus Wagner card – than some academic variation, that is of little historical value - and may even consist of a dot on a common player card.
But everyone is entitled to spend their money how they wish!

[bobbyw8469]

I would rather have a card that is - possibly a partial Honus Wagner card

LMFAO!!!!! What?!?!?! I have a 1952 Topps Jake Pitler card!! It could have possibly been in the same pack as a Mickey Mantle card!!!! I shall auction it off - starting bid of $25,000.

[E93]

Leon, I respectfully think you are off base on this one. Huggins and Scott is an auction house and their own integrity is on the line. Now it is clear to me that they have no qualms about BS-ing potential new hobbyists to make a few bucks. My trust in them just went out the window. The odds of their regaining my trust are about equal to the odds of that being a partial Wagner on that $5000 card.
JimB

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by E93

Leon, I respectfully think you are off base on this one. Huggins and Scott is an auction house and their own integrity is on the line. Now it is clear to me that they have no qualms about BS-ing potential new hobbyists to make a few bucks. My trust in them just went out the window. The odds of their regaining my trust are about equal to the odds of that being a partial Wagner on that $5000 card.
JimB

Well said Jim agree.

[Josh Wolf]

It should also be noted that this card was recently purchased from T206 Museum.

http://t206museum.com/page/store_bkmiscut.html

Josh

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by E93

Leon, I respectfully think you are off base on this one. Huggins and Scott is an auction house and their own integrity is on the line. Now it is clear to me that they have no qualms about BS-ing potential new hobbyists to make a few bucks. My trust in them just went out the window. The odds of their regaining my trust are about equal to the odds of that being a partial Wagner on that $5000 card.
JimB

+1

Crazy.

[yanks12025]

Hi John,

I understand very well the arguments relating to the percentage chance that the card contains a partial Wagner.

I will say though – that in now a dozen posts in this one thread – you have restated in different words that the offering is “way off”.

In your 13th post in this thread, why don’t you clearly state – why – you - feel it is “way off”.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

I would rather have a card that is - possibly a partial Honus Wagner card – than some academic variation

Earlier I thought who would buy into this yarn anyway....behold Net54 has once again come thru and delivered my answer.

Brock on the off chance you care or perhaps just don't know. Let us know I and others would be happy to explain why this is so off....way off.

Cheers,

John

[yanks12025]

John,

The top institutions, and auction houses, regularly present items that they do not have all the firm answers to.

The market determines a value based on the uncertainties.


Here is your King Tut questionable item -


http://www.herkimercommunitymuseum.c...ed-Catalog.pdf

54. Ankh Mirror Case. Found in the Treasury where it had been stripped by the grave robbers
of the silver mirror it once contained, this regal mirror case was fashioned of wood covered in
sheet gold and embossed with both the royal and personal names of the pharaoh. Since the
hieroglyphic ankh symbol for life (represented in the form of sandal straps) was also the symbol
for mirror, the witty artisan who crafted this unique case was indulging in a playful pun. Within
the loop (as in a cartouche), a hieroglyph of Tutankhamun’s throne name, Nebkheprure, is
incorporated into a sacred motif inlaid with carnelian, quartz, and colored glass. The design
ritually depicts the creation of the universe with the birth of the sun god (Re), rendered as a
scarab (kheper) rising forth from the primordial lotus (its corolla crowned by the neb basket).
Although it might have been intended exclusively for funerary purposes, this delightful amulet
may well have been one of the pharaoh’s treasured personal belongings.

(one of his most treasured personal items? or used at his funeral?)


Christies auction lots -

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/b...d-848efd22183f

... cowled saint behind St Margaret is probably Gerard, the patron saint of their eldest son. One of the daughters, probably the eldest, is Margareta, wife of Georges Sersanders, whose fourth child was born in about 1502. The use of the feminine form for one prayer may mean that the book was intended for Margareta ...


http://www..christies.com/lotfinder/...d-848efd22183f

Examination of a limited number of metal objects, which have survived from the Western Zhou dynasty (1046-771 BC), suggests that the use of small amounts of enamel inlaid into metal may have been current in China from this early date. An iron axe blade in the collection of the Freer Gallery in Washington, D.C., and a bronze ladle in the collection of the British Museum, London, appear to have reddish brown glass-paste inlay, while the axe also has green glass-paste inlay. Technical analysis revealed that these were siliceous enamels coloured with cuprous oxide [1]. Both the axe and the ladle have been dated to the 11th century BC, and it has been confirmed that the siliceous enamels are original to the pieces. The use of what would have been applied as molten glass to provide decoration on metal also appears on items of the Warring States period, the Han and the Tang dynasties, albeit that objects thus decorated have not survived in great numbers...However it appears to have been in the Yuan dynasty that Chinese craftsmen began to produce fully developed cloisonne enamelled wares and their wares reached a high standard [4]...

[ullmandds]

So with these analogies to other totally unrelated antiquities...are baseball cards entering this realm...where restorations and other preservation techniques will be deemed not only acceptable...but in a lot of cases the norm?

I don't think so!

This is apples to oranges...even comparing memorabilia to cards...is apples to oranges.

[Sean]

If they really want "the market" to determine this card's value, start the bidding at $10 and see where it ends up. I'll bet it never reaches $75, unless someone else wants to bid against Brock.

[wonkaticket]

Brock, you're just looking to argue no thanks. You asked why earlier I didn't outline more to you its clear it would be a waste of time.

Also nice quick google searches, hope you didn't spend too much time on them.

What you have shown above isn't even apples to apples. it just further highlights that you can't seem to grasp what many of us are saying about Huggins & Scott's auction listing.

At least the items you dug up from the internet have provenance and historical ties that may allow them to be part of or possibly tied to historical figures or times. In other words they have presented real research that shows the possibility and that research is also accepted by a community of peers.

It isn't some made up fish story made out to be fact with its only argument being well you can't say for 100% it didn't happen that way. That's not how the academic and antiquities worlds work.

But again I'm wasting time....

If you really feel this partial Wagner thing isn't a stretch or a complete false statement with little to no evidence to support such a bold claim. Then no wonder so many of the Bill Mastros of the world have practiced their trade with little to no resistance must be like shooting fish in a barrel.

Cheers,

John

[Peter_Spaeth]

For sale: single signed Babe Ruth baseball. Could be the ball he hit for his 714th and final home run. No provenance, but it cannot be conclusively proved that it is NOT that ball. And it goes without saying that it cannot be conclusively proved that it is not his signature.

[yanks12025]

How in the world are you so certain that the Piedmont Wagners were hand cut?

How in the world are you so certain that more, perhaps many more, Piedmont Wagners were not printed and destroyed? We know Piedmont Wagners were printed.

Do you Really think they would have thrown out Entire sheets to destroy/discard just one card?! Intuitively, does this make any sense to anybody? Financially, does this make any sense to anybody? particularly with the expense of the different color inks.

This is your opinion - which is being stated as fact.

[Sean]

There are to date only 2 Wagners with Piedmont backs that we know of. One appears to have been a scrap, and was hand cut. Check the Wagner Gallery on T206Resource.com.
The other is the Gretzky Wagner, which was cut from a sheet and later trimmed by Bill Mastro.
We can't prove that no other Wagner Piedmonts were ever produced, but since none have ever turned up it seems likely that production was halted after the Sweet Caporals were produced, but before the Piedmont print run.

[yanks12025]

It appears that a printing of Sweet Caporal, with Wagner, was not only completed, but that cards had already made their way out into the world, and that at a minimum, Piedmont was on the presses - with Wagner. And some Piedmont Wagners had been printed.

We don't know how much of a run with Wagner there was in Piedmont. Wagner may have been there the whole run, and they destroyed them.

Perhaps they could not destroy all the Sweet Caporal as they had already left the factory by the time word came. So it was not that factory workers did not listen, a number of Sweet Caporal had already gone out. But perhaps the Piedmont Wagners were all still there to destroy.

When examining what is before us, for now, and 20 years from now, I think you first need 'a world of the possible' to examine. This card, this idea, of possible partial Wagners from the sheet, must include Piedmont, as we know Piedmont Wagners were printed.

I honestly think it is the money aspect here that is clouding objective perspective. This is an interesting topic, card, etc. That should not be dismissed on momentary fancy.

I believe Steve is correct, in that there is more that can be discovered.

In my opinion, there is nothing unholy or improper about any of this. It is possible and interesting.


As a side, the inauthentic Wagner, and the inauthentic card variations, created to defraud, are not proper, possible, or interesting. They are fraud.


Also as a side, how do we know the Mastro Wagner was originally hand cut, and not a large (or about regular size) factory cut, that was trimmed?

[ullmandds]

a partial front Wagner would be interesting...THIS partial "back" of a Wagner is not interesting at all...it's just plain stupid...and ridiculous!

[GrayGhost]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

a partial front Wagner would be interesting...THIS partial "back" of a Wagner is not interesting at all...it's just plain stupid...and ridiculous!