T206 Wagner partial back. Really Huggins & Scott?

[yanks12025]

It does not sound to me like any one disagrees with the research - or the possibility of this being a partial Wagner back.

It sounds to me like some people are upset at the price that the card may bring. Collectors tend to get upset when prices go up, and they do not have the item in question. Are you telling me, that if you owned this card, you would simply sell it for whatever amount a T-206 common sells for? I find this hard to believe. I think you would attach some premium – and it is really the ‘premium’, the amount additional this card should be worth (because of the possibility), that is in question.

I agree with Leon. The market will decide.

[bobbyw8469]

I think you would attach some premium – and it is really the ‘premium’, the amount additional this card should be worth (because of the possibility), that is in question.

Complete BS. It is a fabricated premium. You might as well say ALL T206's are worth $5,000 minimum because they came from the same set as the Honus Wagner.

[ullmandds]

brock...are you looking at the same card here?

[wonkaticket]

Brock you nailed it, just sour grapes plain and simple. Good catch.

[t206fix]

My collection just took a huge upswing in price. I also have a pied 150 Brown, and if you look closely, his eyes are actually looking towards Honus (Three finger knew what was up!) so I'd be willing to let this one go for $2750....

[wonkaticket]

LOL, Tony.

[t206fix]

Damn, Wonka -

I just took him out of my safe to polish him up for my big pay day and he's changed a little - I'll still let him go for $2750, any takers? He was still next to Honus...

[wonkaticket]

Dave,

I wouldn’t make this just a T206 thing as it’s a hobby thing with one of ones and highest graded ever ever ever etc. But agree 100% some of us T206 folks are guilty of this stuff and have added fuel to the fire.

Really though most serious collectors of T206 wouldn’t make this leap…this is not a stretch it’s comical. In fact comical enough for another reputable auction house to pass on this card and story when offered.

I think much of this hype is what it is hype.....

My point is there should be some accountability with the sellers also. We as collectors should expect that from the folks who ask for our money. Auction houses need to make sure if one is going to sell off of these wild claims there should be some form of due diligence performed beyond…well I can’t disprove it….so let it ride not my problem. That’s a really dangerous slope that needs to be corrected IMO for the good of the hobby.

Cheers,

John

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by t206fix

Damn, Wonka -

I just took him out of my safe to polish him up for my big pay day and he's changed a little - I'll still let him go for $2750, any takers? He was still next to Honus...

Tony, you might check your safe again. Something seems amiss.

[D. Bergin]

Honestly,this just seems like the evolution of T206 collecting to me. What with premiums for scraps, ghosts, missing colors, added colors, stray dots, missing dots, overprints, underprints, brown backs, brownish/blackish backs.

Always looking for the next big what if, or variation. Seems as if it was only a matter of time before somebody came up with something like this.

Any other set it would just be a miscut or off-center curiousity. Looks like you T206 guys just got what you were asking for.

.........and I'd wager whoever this "consignor" is, is most likely one of these advanced "collectors" you all know and love.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

It does not sound to me like any one disagrees with the research - or the possibility of this being a partial Wagner back.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (I may well be), but I thought all of the Piedmont Wagners are hand-cut. Since this particular Bowerman is factory-cut, wouldn't that preclude the card next to it from being Wagner?

Edited to add: (Or at least strongly argue against it.)

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (I may well be), but I thought all of the Piedmont Wagners are hand-cut. Since this particular Bowerman is factory-cut, wouldn't that preclude the card next to it from being Wagner?

Edited to add: (Or at least strongly argue against it.)

Yes correct hence my statement above Scott. We have no factory cut Wagners with Piedmont backs.

[bobbyw8469]

The bottom line is - is anyone here going to bid $5,000 for this $30 card!?!?!?!?!?! I can't wait to see the outcome of this auction!

[wonkaticket]

Brock, I haven’t typed why its way off as I figured it would be a waste of time as you seem to be way into the fantasy world of belief with the Huggins Team on this. The only argument that Huggins is hanging their hat on is that this card must have been next to the Wagner because of the strip that once belonged to Wagner.

That proof strip is very cool but in no way is a final production sheet clearly that can be seen from the graphic elements missing from the strip.

Using this to assume this is how the sheets were laid out. Let alone make the claim that a factory cut production card has remnants of Wagner’s back is an absolute leap of blind faith at best if you’re a collector. If you’re an auction house with any shred of integrity its downright glorified unfounded bull.

Brock reputable auction companies don’t do stuff like this. You will never see an 18th dynasty Egyptian artifact that looks high-end and might have come from a royal court. Try and tie the item to most likely but not for sure belonging to King Tutankhamun. With some drawn out story about how they have pictures of Lord Carnarvon and Howard Carter in the tomb with a similar item so this one could be Tut’s.

There are countless other little nuances and bits of info taken over the years from collectors who share knowledge much is right here on the board to read. All of these also put further death nails in this cocked up story spun by Huggins & Scott.

Hope this helps….

What a surprise this has ties to Patrick Chan even more reason to run for the hills on this epic yarn.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

What a surprise this has ties to Patrick Chan even more reason to run for the hills on this epic yarn.

Did I miss something? How does this tie to Chan?

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Josh Wolf

It should also be noted that this card was recently purchased from T206 Museum.

http://t206museum.com/page/store_bkmiscut.html

Josh

Originally Posted by Leon

Did I miss something? How does this tie to Chan?

Use the search feature you newbie. (Kidding)

[markf31]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Using this to assume this is how the sheets were laid out. Let alone make the claim that a factory cut production card has remnants of Wagner’s back is an absolute leap of blind faith at best if you’re a collector. If you’re an auction house with any shred of integrity its downright glorified unfounded bull.

Brock reputable auction companies don’t do stuff like this.

I agree for the most part with your points here John, however, as I was reading through the thread and forming my own opinion a thought came to mind.

Some of you may venture from time to time over to the memorabilia side, more specifically the game used memorabilia side of not only the board here but of the hobby as well, but some of you may not. My observations are that in general vintage equipment, uniforms and to a degree pre-model bats all (baring rock solid personal provenience) are determined to be "game used" by nothing more than conjecture based on a set of at times very lose criteria.

Outside of personal provenience, its an educated guess at best based on a set of limited available information if a pre war jersey or piece of equipment is in fact game used. Yet, that doesn't prevent auction houses and other companies from authenticating the pieces and labeling them as being genuine game used equipment when they're consigned. They are in fact making a very similar leap of faith with a lot of the vintage pre war "game used" equipment that gets consigned and auctioned. The information available to authenticate these pieces is sparse and pretty limited if not non existent in some cases. Just because a glove matches the type/style used by Ty Cobb, or a pre-model bat matches the kind of bat used by Lou Gehrig does not grantee that Cobb or Gehrig every touched that piece of equipment let alone use it in a game. Yet they can be authenticated as such because they meet a set of limited and sparse qualities and attributes.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, I'm just stating that the same type of assumptions and leaps of faith are made all the time by auction houses when they auction vintage game used equipment.

[sreader3]

Hi John,
Sorry, I didn't mean to be redundant. Must have missed your earlier statement to the same effect.
Scot

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by sreader3

Hi John,
Sorry, I didn't mean to be redundant. Must have missed your earlier statement to the same effect.
Scot

Scot, you have forgotten more about these cards than I know...the day you need to say sorry to me on T206 stuff...that's the day I pony up my opening bid of 5k on a "partial" Wagner Piedmont back.

No worries brother.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Yes correct hence my statement above Scott. We have no factory cut Wagners with Piedmont backs.

But there could be one in a closet somewhere, or in a parallel universe, so it's still POSSIBLE this is a sliver of a Wagner back.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But there could be one in a closet somewhere, or in a parallel universe, so it's still POSSIBLE this is a sliver of a Wagner back.

Peter, you're right what about an attic?

[ullmandds]

i think brock and steve are looking for jobs as auction puffers...I'd send resume's directly to huggins and scott!

[tschock]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i think brock and steve are looking for jobs as auction puffers...I'd send resume's directly to huggins and scott!

Better a puffer than a fluffer. At least with the former, you're only trying to get ahead....

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i think brock and steve are looking for jobs as auction puffers...I'd send resume's directly to huggins and scott!

I'm not saying the card is what they it might be. There's so much against it that it really shouldn't have been written up like that without a lot more than a maybe preproduction maybe uncut strip to back it up.

I am saying that someday having something far more solid might be possible.

But probably not for a Wagner/Piedmont.

Just the compiling pics of the plate scratches has shown some subjects that can't be from the same sheet. Eventually we'll know more.

Steve B

[T206Collector]

This is nothing short of another enterprising seller trying to exploit T206 collectors' desire to own a piece of the famed Wagner card without delivering an actual piece of an actual Wagner card.

"But it cannot be reasonably said that this is not possibly a partial Honus Wagner." Wrong. This is not possibly a partial Honus Wagner card because there is no evidence that Wagner's front ever appeared on it. A Wagner is made by the front, not the back.