T206 Wagner partial back. Really Huggins & Scott?

[E93]

Leon, I respectfully think you are off base on this one. Huggins and Scott is an auction house and their own integrity is on the line. Now it is clear to me that they have no qualms about BS-ing potential new hobbyists to make a few bucks. My trust in them just went out the window. The odds of their regaining my trust are about equal to the odds of that being a partial Wagner on that $5000 card.
JimB

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by E93

Leon, I respectfully think you are off base on this one. Huggins and Scott is an auction house and their own integrity is on the line. Now it is clear to me that they have no qualms about BS-ing potential new hobbyists to make a few bucks. My trust in them just went out the window. The odds of their regaining my trust are about equal to the odds of that being a partial Wagner on that $5000 card.
JimB

Well said Jim agree.

[Josh Wolf]

It should also be noted that this card was recently purchased from T206 Museum.

http://t206museum.com/page/store_bkmiscut.html

Josh

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by E93

Leon, I respectfully think you are off base on this one. Huggins and Scott is an auction house and their own integrity is on the line. Now it is clear to me that they have no qualms about BS-ing potential new hobbyists to make a few bucks. My trust in them just went out the window. The odds of their regaining my trust are about equal to the odds of that being a partial Wagner on that $5000 card.
JimB

+1

Crazy.

[yanks12025]

Hi John,

I understand very well the arguments relating to the percentage chance that the card contains a partial Wagner.

I will say though – that in now a dozen posts in this one thread – you have restated in different words that the offering is “way off”.

In your 13th post in this thread, why don’t you clearly state – why – you - feel it is “way off”.

[Texxxx]

This is just stupid that they would do this. They have totally lost my respect.
The back of any Wagner has nothing to do with the value and it clearly does not show any of the front.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Texxxx

..........
The back of any Wagner has nothing to do with the value and it clearly does not show any of the front.

I think this is a fair opinion pertaining to the card...... All of the other rhetoric being spewed makes for good reading .

[yanks12025]

John,

I just re-read your statement: “I guess this Bowerman was next to all the other machine or non-handcut cut Piedmont Wagner’s we have floating around.”



I want to point out one important fact that escaped you – and that has great import with regard to assigning a percentage chance that the card contains a partial Wagner.



It has been stated, that Wagner cards - WERE PRINTED AND THEN DESTROYED.



So it is Not that only 50-100 Wagners were printed. Indeed Wagners may have been printed for weeks/months. There may have been thousands or tens of thousands. Given the speed of communication at that time, this may in fact be likely.

It appears that to avoid legal action, the company ordered that the Wagners be “destroyed”.

But the Bowermans, that may have been printed next to Wagner, were not destroyed.

[atx840]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

It has been stated, that Wagner cards - WERE PRINTED AND THEN DESTROYED.

....

It appears that to avoid legal action, the company ordered that the Wagners be “destroyed”.

Source?

Even if that small % of ink was meant for the back of a Wagner, which it was not, it is in no way any % a Wagner.

[steve B]

I've found this thread really amusing, hopefully it won't devolve like a few others have. Johns ad is one of the funniest things I've seen on her in a long time.

I've also given it a lot of thought, and I'm a bit more ambivalent about the auction than most.

I think describing the card as maybe a partial Wagner is a long stretch right now. .
Perhaps in a few years with more research it will be less of a stretch. Maybe even provable someday. But that day is years if not decades away.

Brock has some good points.
We don't know how many were printed
Or what method was used to stop production and destroy any remaining.

But.......
We can make a few good guesses.
There are very few Piedmont Wagners. I can only find references to two, I'd assume maybe another 2-3.
SC Wagners come with both factory 25 and 30 backs. And there are quite a few of them compared to Piedmonts.
The sales figures are approximately known for both brands.
So it's possible to estimate the total number of 150 series cards.

It's likely that SC production of the sheet including Wagner was stopped, probably quicker than weeks or months later. Communication between major cities wasn't all that slow. And there are a number of 150 series cards that show production was either stopped early (Magie) Or stopped and plates redone. (Tinker hands on knees, maybe a couple others)
The numbers lead me to believe no set of plates was run much longer than 3-4 weeks,
I think the Piedmont Wagners are most likely printers scrap, finished fronts used as setup sheets.

The sheet layouts aren't known, not even the overall size. There are some good theories, but nothing proven yet.

It is possible to group each card by small differences in the fronts.
It might be possible to also do that for the backs, but aside from a few major consistent flaws like the plate scratches it's not certain.

So, perhaps someday it will be possible to know what both cards of a miscut back are, but not now. And I doubt there are enough Piedmont Wagners to ever make something like this provable.


I'll leave the value of something like that up to each individual, many of us wouldn't care, some would. Just as some of us would care about a minor caption problem, and some don't. Either view is just fine.

Steve B
PS - Can we all just stop valuing brand differences like Drum and Uzit ? At least until I have one of each? ......didn't think so...

[Cardboard Junkie]

"It has been stated, that Wagner cards - WERE PRINTED AND THEN DESTROYED."
WHAT!!??? This is important!! Please indicate where this information came from. I'm calling "Bull$hit"!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

Indeed Wagners may have been printed for weeks/months. There may have been thousands or tens of thousands. Given the speed of communication at that time, this may in fact be likely.

They weren't still using the Pony Express in 1909.

Count me among those who don't think this lot deserves any more scrutiny than many of the other pieces of nonsense over-hyped by the AH's. I am; however, curious what Brock would be willing to pay for it, in real U.S. currency.