Safeguards at shows

[parkplace33]

In 2024, we have had two big thefts tied to card shows (Strongsville and Dallas). Are promoters putting any additional safeguards in place? Or is it basically up to the dealers/attendees to take care of it themselves?

Not to scare anyone, but I would more vigilant than ever when in possession of high value cards.

[Jewish-collector]

https://www.cllct.com/sports-collect...raise-concerns

[sb1]

These thefts are also taking place away from the shows to both Card and Coin dealers, these dealers are being followed to gas stations/restaurants/motels and their cars being broken into while they go inside and leave material in the car, trunk or trailers. These are not petty thieves, I had a coin dealer friend several years ago that was tracked across 4 states, when he arrived home he parked in his driveway and went in to check on all his animals. Walked out 10-15 minutes later and found his car doors open and trunk popped. The Feds eventually found most of the coins and turned out to be the Russian mob. These people if interrupted during the commission of said crime are not the kind to run away.

One of our own pre-war dealers in California experienced this just a year or so ago upon his packing his vehicle and leaving a southern California show.

[Johnny630]

I’m sure if the promoters raised the table fees to go towards undercover and uniform units doing security at these shows it would be well worth it.

[sb1]

Most of these shows have heavy security both uniform and plain clothes. The crimes are occurring when off premises or in the case of the Dallas show, after hours, which I presume the security had left.

[ClementeFanOh]

Two thoughts come to mind when people call for enhanced security as a
way to reduce risk of theft at card shows (theft by deception, not robbery):

1) Cost. I wish I had a dollar for each time I've read a dealer complain
about the high cost of tables at bigger shows on this venue. Extra duty
police cost money, and the amount isn't small. Most police are paid
significantly more for extra-duty work than on-duty work, and the per
hour cost may shock some of you. Is it worth it? Enough to increase
your table cost? You would need to judge. The same may well be true
for added cameras, etc. (I'm not giving an answer, just posing the
question).

2) Vigilance. Each seller must be on his/her toes, especially if the material
is particularly valuable or desirable. Make it a point to take someone
whose sole purpose is to watch your stuff. How would people feel if a
show actually required such a person as part of the entry agreement?
What if adult showgoers were required to show current photo ID to
get in? How badly do you want better security?

Trent King

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Two thoughts come to mind when people call for enhanced security as a
way to reduce risk of theft at card shows (theft by deception, not robbery):

1) Cost. I wish I had a dollar for each time I've read a dealer complain
about the high cost of tables at bigger shows on this venue. Extra duty
police cost money, and the amount isn't small. Most police are paid
significantly more for extra-duty work than on-duty work, and the per
hour cost may shock some of you. Is it worth it? Enough to increase
your table cost? You would need to judge. The same may well be true
for added cameras, etc. (I'm not giving an answer, just posing the
question).

I spent 12 years in law enforcement (1995-2007). I can tell you that during those years off duty jobs generally paid $20-$25 per hour. You might even catch a really good gig at $30 an hour once in a while. I cannot imagine what the guys are getting now but I’m sure it’s considerably more.

[Jewish-collector]

Just hire some college wrestlers and/or retired UFC guys just to sit with the stuff and knock anyone out that tries to touch the cases.

[ClementeFanOh]

Vintagedeputy-

I know for a fact that, at Ohio State home football games in 2023, there was
a shortage of police for security (extra-duty not on-duty). Prospective officers
were offered $100 per hour, and spots went unfilled.

Again, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to have an increase in uniformed
LE at appropriate shows. I'm merely pointing to the cost, and the proclivity
of sellers on this board to grouse about- you guessed it-costs.

Trent King

[JustinD]

Security is a nice feel good measure but unlikely to make drastic change. Let’s be honest, most of these happen when someone is distracted, busy or other. If if have 10s of thousands, 100s or even as described millions in merchandise I want descriptions and identifying info. Six cheap nest cams should cover any table well. Two focused on my table top at each side, two facing the crowd for faces and two in the rear of my booth facing outward. I want 100s of frames of film to post if anything comes up missing.

As for personal protection, other than doing your best for a connecting hotel and traveling with another set of eyes there’s not much more to be done. Other than Cleveland, the national is held in locations in which even providing yourself protection will get you more time than anyone would serve if they robbed you. I am a personal protection person, but no way my CPL is worth trying anywhere but Ohio. I sure as hell am not protecting myself in Chicago without losing my freedom for years even if I am in the right.

We can yell for police all you want, but the best thing is just evidence and not believing they are magically going to be everywhere.

[Steve_NY]

I am very concerned about theft -- and setting up a booth at the National is always a challenge.

I now LOCK all of my showcases -- and I don't allow anyone to remove a card from my binders. I personally remove all cards and wrappers from my binders. Obviously, I lose customers that way but guess what -- I don't lose cards or wrappers that way.

It's very sad that a high percentage of the large thefts are so called friends that you allow to review your items with limited supervsion. Those are the ones you have to watch out for.

I even had a collector who had asked if my wife could watch his daughter so she was distracted while he stole an expensive pack.

I hope the National will do more overnight security this year. If you walk around the show after it is closed, I always find collectors walking around at almost 6:30 when they should have left the room a half hour before.

Any one have other security ideas for booth holders?

Steve_NY

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Vintagedeputy-

I know for a fact that, at Ohio State home football games in 2023, there was
a shortage of police for security (extra-duty not on-duty). Prospective officers
were offered $100 per hour, and spots went unfilled.

Again, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to have an increase in uniformed
LE at appropriate shows. I'm merely pointing to the cost, and the proclivity
of sellers on this board to grouse about- you guessed it-costs.

Trent King

I’m actually not surprised that even at $100 per hour, there was difficulty in finding officers. Officers these days have a wealth of opportunities - no pun intended - for off duty work as well as overtime. They generally look for really easy jobs with low chances of there being problems or having to make a arrest.

Having worked college football games before myself, I can imagine that many officers would try to stay away from those details because they can get rowdy and out of hand.

[G1911]

Be attentive and vigilant is really all that can be done.

Cops or more cops wandering around wouldn't have likely stopped either theft. They aren't forceful seizures followed by an obvious perp running away and needing to be chased by the law. The Strongsville theft in particular is not something any show could have reasonably done anything to prevent (short of the possessor having the basic common sense not to mail millions in cards to a Best Western...).

Being armed also would not stop either incident or any realistic card show theft either, and if a dealer did use a weapon that they would almost certainly go to jail for drawing on a non-violent thief in a public place. Carrying a firearm is for extreme threats, not a guy taking a case at a show in a room full of people in all directions.

Watching your stuff or having someone you trust watch your stuff and being aware of your surroundings is about all one can do when in a public place with expensive things.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by G1911

Being armed also would not stop either incident or any realistic card show theft either, and if a dealer did use a weapon that they would almost certainly go to jail for drawing on a non-violent thief in a public place. Carrying a firearm is for extreme threats, not a guy taking a case at a show in a room full of people in all directions.
.

That would be a given. If you are responding to my comment, it was directed to Scott’s post above of being followed to motels or home in his worst example.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by G1911

Be attentive and vigilant is really all that can be done.

Cops or more cops wandering around wouldn't have likely stopped either theft. They aren't forceful seizures followed by an obvious perp running away and needing to be chased by the law. The Strongsville theft in particular is not something any show could have reasonably done anything to prevent (short of the possessor having the basic common sense not to mail millions in cards to a Best Western...).

Being armed also would not stop either incident or any realistic card show theft either, and if a dealer did use a weapon that they would almost certainly go to jail for drawing on a non-violent thief in a public place. Carrying a firearm is for extreme threats, not a guy taking a case at a show in a room full of people in all directions.

Watching your stuff or having someone you trust watch your stuff and being aware of your surroundings is about all one can do when in a public place with expensive things.

Having visible security around at the end of the Dallas show may have helped prevent the theft since more eyes watching may have made the thieves less likely to try anything.

[ajenks3378]

I own a small business in the western suburbs of Cleveland…and in our community to hire auxiliary police officers it costs $125 an hour.
So I am sure The National is spending some good money on security.
Andy

[Johnny630]

My number one proposal for extra security measures would be for all attendees of these major shows to produce an official government photo ID, driver's license/passport, and or VA card. Doing this would be an added cost-effective security measure that would be able to identify everyone who has made entry into the show. I would also utilize a timestamp.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

My number one proposal for extra security measures would be for all attendees of these major shows to produce an official government photo ID, driver's license/passport, and or VA card. Doing this would be an added cost-effective security measure that would be able to identify everyone who has made entry into the show. I would also utilize a timestamp.

No thanks.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

My number one proposal for extra security measures would be for all attendees of these major shows to produce an official government photo ID, driver's license/passport, and or VA card. Doing this would be an added cost-effective security measure that would be able to identify everyone who has made entry into the show. I would also utilize a timestamp.

When you say produce an ID, do you also mean that the show would keep a record of everyone who was there? If so, I can imagine that would discourage a lot of people who want to protect their privacy from attending.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by jayshum

When you say produce an ID, do you also mean that the show would keep a record of everyone who was there? If so, I can imagine that would discourage a lot of people who want to protect their privacy from attending.

Yes, I do. That’s up to them if they wanna attend or not I think it’s a good idea for the big shows. That’s just me. I feel like it’s worth it. Everyone knows your identity on here or if you bid an auction or purchase from someone online, I don’t see what the differences really. Ultimately, it’s up to them. When you get a pass to enter the show, you also have your name on the pass typed out in bold. Doesn’t seem to stop the attendance at that show one bit.

At the Long Beach coin and expo show you have to produce ID. Also, all of the dealers and their employees wear a pictured photograph ID. I think it’s a great idea.

[slightlyrounded]

Not sure I like the ID requirement, but having a visible face-level camera at entry points would be a great way to identify any criminals that do show up. Dallas camera angles left a lot to be desired.

[ClementeFanOh]

The recent group of messages above mine, in regard to producing ID,
illustrates my earlier question about how far people are willing to go truly to
enhance security. One way to have a good idea about who is
attending a show is-wait for it- actually knowing their identities! Yet some
people balk... That's the rub. For some, the thought seems to be that
enhanced security is just wonderful so long as that person doesn't have to
take part. Talk about a sticky wicket! Trent King

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Yes, I do. That’s up to them if they wanna attend or not I think it’s a good idea for the big shows. That’s just me. I feel like it’s worth it. Everyone knows your identity on here or if you bid an auction or purchase from someone online, I don’t see what the differences really. Ultimately, it’s up to them. When you get a pass to enter the show, you also have your name on the pass typed out in bold. Doesn’t seem to stop the attendance at that show one bit.

At the Long Beach coin and expo show you have to produce ID. Also, all of the dealers and their employees wear a pictured photograph ID. I think it’s a great idea.

Access to that information would be like a Sears Christmas Wishbook for thieves.

[Jewish-collector]

How about the best camera money can buy taking a picture of everyone exiting the building during setup & breakdown ? So, in this situation, they would have clear pictures of these thieves.

[ClementeFanOh]

SteveB- I’m afraid I disagree completely with your remark that showing ID to a show employee, would be like giving a Christmas list to thieves. The show employer/ID person is the least of someone’s worries at a card show. And a name and photo that matches the attendee, isn’t vital or sensitive information. I get it that some people just don’t want others to know who they are- even when they are legitimate in their attendance. I also know that resistance to something so basic is exactly the kind of thing that makes it difficult to provide the “better security” most people want. It won’t come without cost. The question the individual would need to answer within, is if showing a photo ID is actually a “cost”. Trent King

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

SteveB- I’m afraid I disagree completely with your remark that showing ID to a show employee, would be like giving a Christmas list to thieves. The show employer/ID person is the least of someone’s worries at a card show. And a name and photo that matches the attendee, isn’t vital or sensitive information. I get it that some people just don’t want others to know who they are- even when they are legitimate in their attendance. I also know that resistance to something so basic is exactly the kind of thing that makes it difficult to provide the “better security” most people want. It won’t come without cost. The question the individual would need to answer within, is if showing a photo ID is actually a “cost”. Trent King

I have to understand Steve's position here. The likely level of security for this documentation would be at an amateur's level. A low level hacker would likely be able to access if in the odd case they were unlikely to buy access to the information from a low paid security or data employee of the event. Thus providing not just names and photos, but home addresses of thousands of collectors that more than likely have collectables on premise. Let's be realistic, without documenting the license information in some way what does it really do at all? Are the weekend employees at the door of the National going to be able to memorize the information of 10s of thousands of visitors? It would need to be on a database for reference or it's complete waste of time...and that is a goldmine for information sales. The promoters would sell that attendee list to every auction house in the hobby the next week and then leave another million security holes.

I am sure I'll get massacred for even bringing it up, but if a huge percentage of the country is voting to state that simply asking for a federal or state photo ID to prove you can legally vote or even are who you say you are is somehow way over the line. What is the slightest chance that you can legally ask and document identification to enter a baseball card show if challenged?

[Rich Klein]

A couple of notes. I can tell you that I (we) spent $55 per hour to have an Plano Police Officer on site during our synagogue show right after the Allen Outlet shooting. And that was a small 20 table show and we absorbed all the costs because of the short notice to dealers/customers. We could afford that cost because since I was not paying rent for the room we had some extra financial room.

After 10/7 we now have security at any our synagogue (including the card show) events. Better to be safe than sorry. But there is a real cost and we're lucky as a show we could absorb those costs. Not every promoter/table holder could absorb the true costs of extra security

I forgot to add we now require everyone to sign in to our show. I have not yet asked for ID's (I do know many of the people who attend) but that's also a safety issue for our show and I suspect many other shows as well. Has to do with liability. Many years ago I was giving a quick tour of the Beckett building to two very trustworthy people and they insisted on signing in to our guest list. Why? If something happened as they were not signed in I would be responsible. If something occured then Beckett would be responsible. it's actually protects the promoter to have sign ins. I wonder if we're ever going to get to that point at shows.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I have to understand Steve's position here. The likely level of security for this documentation would be at an amateur's level. A low level hacker would likely be able to access if in the odd case they were unlikely to buy access to the information from a low paid security or data employee of the event. Thus providing not just names and photos, but home addresses of thousands of collectors that more than likely have collectables on premise. Let's be realistic, without documenting the license information in some way what does it really do at all? Are the weekend employees at the door of the National going to be able to memorize the information of 10s of thousands of visitors? It would need to be on a database for reference or it's complete waste of time...and that is a goldmine for information sales. The promoters would sell that attendee list to every auction house in the hobby the next week and then leave another million security holes.

I am sure I'll get massacred for even bringing it up, but if a huge percentage of the country is voting to state that simply asking for a federal or state photo ID to prove you can legally vote or even are who you say you are is somehow way over the line. What is the slightest chance that you can legally ask and document identification to enter a baseball card show if challenged?

As long as you weren't discriminating and were asking everyone for ID, I'm not sure why it would be illegal. I think the main issue would be many people being unwilling to provide it and therefore not come to the show.

[ClementeFanOh]

JustinD- first of all, I won’t massacre you The reality is that people are voluntarily attending card shows (or not attending). If a person comes to the conclusion that showing a driver’s license is somehow a security risk, then they can opt out of that show. I’ve never organized a card show, so I haven’t given a ton of thought to how show handlers would treat the information. Maybe matching the person’s face with the ID is good enough. Maybe the ticket taker(s) simply write “Trent King Ohio” on a legal pad, then the next attendee’s name and so on. Ohio Driver licenses don’t even list the person’s SS number, so that’s out. I mean, if people don’t like the idea of strangers at a show stealing their stuff, the idea of making people prove their identity seems like a decent step in the right direction. One thing is for sure- hesitation or reluctance to enhance security favors the bad guys. Trent King

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

JustinD- first of all, I won’t massacre you The reality is that people are voluntarily attending card shows (or not attending). If a person comes to the conclusion that showing a driver’s license is somehow a security risk, then they can opt out of that show. I’ve never organized a card show, so I haven’t given a ton of thought to how show handlers would treat the information. Maybe matching the person’s face with the ID is good enough. Maybe the ticket taker(s) simply write “Trent King Ohio” on a legal pad, then the next attendee’s name and so on. Ohio Driver licenses don’t even list the person’s SS number, so that’s out. I mean, if people don’t like the idea of strangers at a show stealing their stuff, the idea of making people prove their identity seems like a decent step in the right direction. One thing is for sure- hesitation or reluctance to enhance security favors the bad guys. Trent King

If the purpose of showing IDs is to have a list of possible suspects when a theft occurs, then more information would need to be recorded than just a name and a state. There are a lot of John Smiths out there so at least an address would be needed as well to make the list useful in any way. Unfortunately, it probably doesn't take much for someone to get a fake ID to show so if potential criminals have one, the list becomes useless.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by jayshum

If the purpose of showing IDs is to have a list of possible suspects when a theft occurs, then more information would need to be recorded than just a name and a state. There are a lot of John Smiths out there so at least an address would be needed as well to make the list useful in any way. Unfortunately, it probably doesn't take much for someone to get a fake ID to show so if potential criminals have one, the list becomes useless.

It's a start and a very good cost effective start if you ask me. You can't have it all or both ways but you can take small little security measurements with limited costs involved such as this. This is just me but fine with producing a photo Id at shows.

[Steve_NY]

I contend that the National should show the way for other smaller shows. The National should set the bar on security. Is that too much to ask of them?

It's still up to booth holders to maintain their own security during and after the show.

I prefer cash payments but in the likely event that I will get checks or PayPal, at that time I require valid picture ID. Holding an item for a few days until checks clear is definitely a requirement. If the buyer balks at that, then it's time to be suspicious of their intentions.

Any other thoughts on security and how to handle that during and after the show closes for the evening?

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

A couple of notes. I can tell you that I (we) spent $55 per hour to have an Plano Police Officer on site during our synagogue show right after the Allen Outlet shooting. And that was a small 20 table show and we absorbed all the costs because of the short notice to dealers/customers. We could afford that cost because since I was not paying rent for the room we had some extra financial room.

After 10/7 we now have security at any our synagogue (including the card show) events. Better to be safe than sorry. But there is a real cost and we're lucky as a show we could absorb those costs. Not every promoter/table holder could absorb the true costs of extra security

I forgot to add we now require everyone to sign in to our show. I have not yet asked for ID's (I do know many of the people who attend) but that's also a safety issue for our show and I suspect many other shows as well. Has to do with liability. Many years ago I was giving a quick tour of the Beckett building to two very trustworthy people and they insisted on signing in to our guest list. Why? If something happened as they were not signed in I would be responsible. If something occured then Beckett would be responsible. it's actually protects the promoter to have sign ins. I wonder if we're ever going to get to that point at shows.

What liability is there in asking for IDS?

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Steve_NY

I contend that the National should show the way for other smaller shows. The National should set the bar on security. Is that too much to ask of them?

It's still up to booth holders to maintain their own security during and after the show.

I prefer cash payments but in the likely event that I will get checks or PayPal, at that time I require valid picture ID. Holding an item for a few days until checks clear is definitely a requirement. If the buyer balks at that, then it's time to be suspicious of their intentions.

Any other thoughts on security and how to handle that during and after the show closes for the evening?

I know we have some National board members on this forum. Would love to hear their thoughts.

Steve, my opinion, you need to set yourself up for success.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

It's a start and a very good cost effective start if you ask me. You can't have it all or both ways but you can take small little security measurements with limited costs involved such as this. This is just me but fine with producing a photo Id at shows.

Concur, especially at larger shows.

Look at jewelry stores. While most don’t ask for ID, you better believe you are being watched the whole time.

[Rich Klein]

What liability is there in asking for IDS?

None. I'm just trying to have as little friction as possible for our guests. If I'm asked to verify with ID's (I'll bring that up to our brotherhood board and then the synagogue board) I sure will ask for ID's

If I know the person I can skip the ID part but if I don't or not sure I can do that then.

Rich

[Musashi]

I see all this conversation about how requiring photo ID's will deter criminals, and am wondering if I'm the only delinquent here who purchased alcohol before they turned 21...

[notfast]

Producing and showing ID is pointless unless the information is being stored. That’s where the liability would come in to play. Who’s is keeping this info? What are they doing with it? What happens if there is a breach?

The solution that is most reasonable is more visible cameras and more visible security. These deter the majority of criminals.

Then everyone needs to be responsible for security of their own space.

One guy working the booth should never happen unless someone is going to the bathroom or grabbing food to bring back. Need multiple workers always.

Never hand cards to more than one person at a time. Make sure showcases are locked and back stock is secure. This could be as simple as having a case with a handle bike locked to a table leg or a standalone safe. Even simple deterrents such as moving cash box/envelope location often are usually not considered. I could go on and on. Nothing is incredibly difficult its just that most people don’t have the experience of dealing with people essentially trying to shoplift.

The majority of people (including cops and paid security officers) do not have the experience needed to prevent retail theft except by their existing and showing presence…which it’s important so this should always be the top priority of all shows.

[ClementeFanOh]

Brian- I’m unsure if your remark is tongue in cheek. Assuming it’s not, the notion of photo ID requirement isn’t a cure all. Instead, it’s one more measure to make it harder on potential thieves at shows. It’s also not alone as the only potentially controversial measure that show organizers can implement to at least make these guys consider trying their crimes at another show than their own. Identifying these steps and quantifying their cost (financial and social) is worth the discussion. I don’t care in the least of there is stronger security physical presence, video presence, and preventative measures- I’m just one guy though. Trent King

[ClementeFanOh]

Todd (notfast)- okay, I’ll bite. What exactly is the liability you have mentioned more than once? Please explain the liability of, say, keeping a list of attendee names and forms of ID ( example “Trent King, Ohio driver’s license”) and then shredding it after a successful show- after no incidents have been reported, that is. I’m reading between the lines that you consider it an imposition, but that’s not the same as a liability. I’m hard pressed to think of an example of anything that is made better/more thorough without incurring some cost or extra steps. The wish to somehow will better security into existence without action is exactly that- a wish. That’s the bone of contention, I suppose. Do people want to complain without action, or actually do things that increase the possibility of safer shows? Trent King

[notfast]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Todd (notfast)- okay, I’ll bite. What exactly is the liability you have mentioned more than once? Please explain the liability of, say, keeping a list of attendee names and forms of ID ( example “Trent King, Ohio driver’s license”) and then shredding it after a successful show- after no incidents have been reported, that is. I’m reading between the lines that you consider it an imposition, but that’s not the same as a liability. I’m hard pressed to think of an example of anything that is made better/more thorough without incurring some cost or extra steps. The wish to somehow will better security into existence without action is exactly that- a wish. That’s the bone of contention, I suppose. Do people want to complain without action, or actually do things that increase the possibility of safer shows? Trent King

Any time you collect and compile personal information there is a risk of that getting into the wrong hands. Digitally, dumpster diving etc.

There’s a reason every time you enter information somewhere you agree to a whole list of terms and conditions about what happens with that information.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by notfast

Any time you collect and compile personal information there is a risk of that getting into the wrong hands. Digitally, dumpster diving etc.

There’s a reason every time you enter information somewhere you agree to a whole list of terms and conditions about what happens with that information.

I don;t want to write down information. what I'm thinking in the sign up sheet is to have ID shown/verified

[notfast]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

I don;t want to write down information. what I'm thinking in the sign up sheet is to have ID shown/verified

Tickets could be forced to be paid for via electronic payment which would give some sort of tracking. Combine that with entry cameras and a scanner scanning a unique ticket # and maybe you’d have something that could be traceable to a card payment that wouldn’t involve another entity needing personal information.

Edit - but then you run in to situations (like sporting events now a days) where people don’t use cards or are too young for them.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

I don;t want to write down information. what I'm thinking in the sign up sheet is to have ID shown/verified

Not trying to be argumentative, but what point or purpose would looking at an id solve with no documentation? I worked my way through college as a bouncer at a couple rough bars. I looked at thousands of ids, often hundreds in a day. We had plenty of fights, even a stabbing once…not a single time ever did myself or another bouncer have a name to offer the police unless it happened to be a regular and you could come up with a first name. Checking ids only accomplished that we knew for 20 seconds they were old enough to be there. You would have needed to be Dustin Hoffman in rain man to recall who that random persons id was.

If someone asks why ids are necessary can security, unless there is a new minimum age to go to the national, really be a defensible argument? I can’t see any real benefit to glancing at an id for 10 seconds other than to just annoy people and have the door people forced into arguing with guests the entire time. Even documenting the ids, without taking a current picture of them as well like the airport it’s still fairly worthless. Having someone steal something and then handing the police a list of thousands of names and ids for some sort of assistance would result in them likely rolling their eyes.

If someone is up to no good, the idea they randomly flashed an id among 10000 other people is not going to slow them down a wink.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Not trying to be argumentative, but what point or purpose would looking at an id solve with no documentation? I worked my way through college as a bouncer at a couple rough bars. I looked at thousands of ids, often hundreds in a day. We had plenty of fights, even a stabbing once…not a single time ever did myself or another bouncer have a name to offer the police unless it happened to be a regular and you could come up with a first name. Checking ids only accomplished that we knew for 20 seconds they were old enough to be there. You would have needed to be Dustin Hoffman in rain man to recall who that random persons id was.

If someone asks why ids are necessary can security, unless there is a new minimum age to go to the national, really be a defensible argument? I can’t see any real benefit to glancing at an id for 10 seconds other than to just annoy people and have the door people forced into arguing with guests the entire time. Even documenting the ids, without taking a current picture of them as well like the airport it’s still fairly worthless. Having someone steal something and then handing the police a list of thousands of names and ids for some sort of assistance would result in them likely rolling their eyes.

If someone is up to no good, the idea they randomly flashed an id among 10000 other people is not going to slow them down a wink.

In simplest terms, I'm hosting a card show in a synagogue. We not only have the issue of potential theft (thankfully I'm not aware in all these years of anything close to being major taken except from our prize table back in the day.) We also frankly have the issue of Anti-Semitism which can pop up in ways we don't want to think about. We are not a public place and thus can have more stringent rules for people verification.

Trust me, I don't want to do this but it's something which absolutely has to be considered in today's world and it's not something I (nor the brotherhood board and the synagogue board) take lightly.

Rich

[ClementeFanOh]

JustinD-

It is obvious that some members have noticed these large thefts at shows,
and are "kicking the tires" on ways at least to minimize the chances it
happens at their show or their booth. It's a valid question to ask. To your
comments:

1) The value of requiring valid photo ID is to discourage or prohibit those
who don't have it, and are using anonymity to their advantage to steal.
If this requirement discourages a couple idiots with bad intentions from
trying their nonsense, it's a valid idea for sure.

2) Most shows don't have 10,000 visitors. I attend a large monthly show
that routinely consists of 200 tables spread out over 2 large outbuildings.
If that show received 1000 guests and there was, say, a $100k theft, I
have direct knowledge that law enforcement wouldn't "roll their eyes" at
list of 1000 people. That list would narrow their search from practical
infinity, down to 1000- and they could peruse the list for names that
are familiar or which stand out ("which of these, is not like the others?")

The best way I can explain it in sports terms- since we are on sports card
site- is to use boxing lingo. Taken separately, none of the measures I have
seen are "knockout punches" that utterly prevent theft. They are, however,
"jabs" that annoy and wear down potential bad guys. It would be a shame
to overlook a measure that is free to implement and that could serve a
real purpose to deterring criminal behavior. In case anyone is still wondering
if there is a magical, free, instantaneous way to reduce theft at shows, the
answer is no. The question becomes, do people really wish to reduce theft
or merely wish to complain without action? Trent King

[yanks87]

Theft is an unfortunate part of shows, and with the increase in values of cards, it was only a matter of time before thieves started to look for the blind spots in a soft target like a show. Thank goodness there were cameras in Dallas, hopefully it leads to arrests.

I can remember vividly working for a dealer in the 90's, and having people swipe high dollar items. In one instance the older gentleman that I worked for vaulted over the table and chased the guy down in the lobby of the Sheraton because he had grabbed a box of Stadium Club cards.

You have to assume the worst, I still don't understand why dealers leave cards on their table overnight. Zipped up, locked down, whatever, I always take the high value cards with me. In a moment of letting my guard down in Nashville, I was passed $200 in counterfeit $20's, of course they did a good job of putting a real bill on top, but I was only marking $50's and $100's with my pen, never even gave it a second thought until I was doing my final reconciliation. It made me sick, but it is noting compared to Dallas and Strongsville.

I think it is an unfortunate part of the hobby now, and dealers need to be on the guard with product and cash, sharks are in the water and they are circling.

[Exhibitman]

If you’re doing retail sales you have to expect a level of shrinkage. Stuff will vanish. The best you can do is to try to limit the losses to cheap crapola. Load in and out are the most vulnerable points and that is when you need to secure your best stuff with best practices. I’m publishing a screed about this tomorrow on my Substack.

[LEHR]

When personal ID's are required to enter a sports card show, I'll have entered my last show. How about instead of making show attendees jump through hoops the show promotors actually step up and hire adequate security, or dealers actually take some responsibility and keep track of their inventory? But this is the American way. Instead of addressing the issues at the root, let's just slap a Band-Aid on a bullet wound and call it a day.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

SteveB- I’m afraid I disagree completely with your remark that showing ID to a show employee, would be like giving a Christmas list to thieves. The show employer/ID person is the least of someone’s worries at a card show. And a name and photo that matches the attendee, isn’t vital or sensitive information. I get it that some people just don’t want others to know who they are- even when they are legitimate in their attendance. I also know that resistance to something so basic is exactly the kind of thing that makes it difficult to provide the “better security” most people want. It won’t come without cost. The question the individual would need to answer within, is if showing a photo ID is actually a “cost”. Trent King

Showing an ID isn't a problem. Hopefully they have enough ticket/door staff to handle it.

When they start saving that data anywhere is when it becomes a security concern. Even a temporary list of attendees with their address is something a house breaker would probably be very interested in.
Include the full drivers license info or full info from all Ids, and it's not only a catalog of who might have cards or other stuff worth stealing, and when they will be out -obviously the next show- but a list that's saleable in many ways, many of them illegal.

And if you don't save the ID info even temporarily? I have no idea what value the fact that you'd looked at IDs would have to someone investigating a crime.
Nothing but meaningless security theater.

Yes, I do slightly worry about the door prize slips you fill out for a mailing list to be sent a notice about the next show, but you can usually opt out of putting your physical address.