Safeguards at shows

[ClementeFanOh]

SteveB- I’m afraid I disagree completely with your remark that showing ID to a show employee, would be like giving a Christmas list to thieves. The show employer/ID person is the least of someone’s worries at a card show. And a name and photo that matches the attendee, isn’t vital or sensitive information. I get it that some people just don’t want others to know who they are- even when they are legitimate in their attendance. I also know that resistance to something so basic is exactly the kind of thing that makes it difficult to provide the “better security” most people want. It won’t come without cost. The question the individual would need to answer within, is if showing a photo ID is actually a “cost”. Trent King

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

SteveB- I’m afraid I disagree completely with your remark that showing ID to a show employee, would be like giving a Christmas list to thieves. The show employer/ID person is the least of someone’s worries at a card show. And a name and photo that matches the attendee, isn’t vital or sensitive information. I get it that some people just don’t want others to know who they are- even when they are legitimate in their attendance. I also know that resistance to something so basic is exactly the kind of thing that makes it difficult to provide the “better security” most people want. It won’t come without cost. The question the individual would need to answer within, is if showing a photo ID is actually a “cost”. Trent King

I have to understand Steve's position here. The likely level of security for this documentation would be at an amateur's level. A low level hacker would likely be able to access if in the odd case they were unlikely to buy access to the information from a low paid security or data employee of the event. Thus providing not just names and photos, but home addresses of thousands of collectors that more than likely have collectables on premise. Let's be realistic, without documenting the license information in some way what does it really do at all? Are the weekend employees at the door of the National going to be able to memorize the information of 10s of thousands of visitors? It would need to be on a database for reference or it's complete waste of time...and that is a goldmine for information sales. The promoters would sell that attendee list to every auction house in the hobby the next week and then leave another million security holes.

I am sure I'll get massacred for even bringing it up, but if a huge percentage of the country is voting to state that simply asking for a federal or state photo ID to prove you can legally vote or even are who you say you are is somehow way over the line. What is the slightest chance that you can legally ask and document identification to enter a baseball card show if challenged?

[Rich Klein]

A couple of notes. I can tell you that I (we) spent $55 per hour to have an Plano Police Officer on site during our synagogue show right after the Allen Outlet shooting. And that was a small 20 table show and we absorbed all the costs because of the short notice to dealers/customers. We could afford that cost because since I was not paying rent for the room we had some extra financial room.

After 10/7 we now have security at any our synagogue (including the card show) events. Better to be safe than sorry. But there is a real cost and we're lucky as a show we could absorb those costs. Not every promoter/table holder could absorb the true costs of extra security

I forgot to add we now require everyone to sign in to our show. I have not yet asked for ID's (I do know many of the people who attend) but that's also a safety issue for our show and I suspect many other shows as well. Has to do with liability. Many years ago I was giving a quick tour of the Beckett building to two very trustworthy people and they insisted on signing in to our guest list. Why? If something happened as they were not signed in I would be responsible. If something occured then Beckett would be responsible. it's actually protects the promoter to have sign ins. I wonder if we're ever going to get to that point at shows.

[ClementeFanOh]

JustinD- first of all, I won’t massacre you The reality is that people are voluntarily attending card shows (or not attending). If a person comes to the conclusion that showing a driver’s license is somehow a security risk, then they can opt out of that show. I’ve never organized a card show, so I haven’t given a ton of thought to how show handlers would treat the information. Maybe matching the person’s face with the ID is good enough. Maybe the ticket taker(s) simply write “Trent King Ohio” on a legal pad, then the next attendee’s name and so on. Ohio Driver licenses don’t even list the person’s SS number, so that’s out. I mean, if people don’t like the idea of strangers at a show stealing their stuff, the idea of making people prove their identity seems like a decent step in the right direction. One thing is for sure- hesitation or reluctance to enhance security favors the bad guys. Trent King

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

JustinD- first of all, I won’t massacre you The reality is that people are voluntarily attending card shows (or not attending). If a person comes to the conclusion that showing a driver’s license is somehow a security risk, then they can opt out of that show. I’ve never organized a card show, so I haven’t given a ton of thought to how show handlers would treat the information. Maybe matching the person’s face with the ID is good enough. Maybe the ticket taker(s) simply write “Trent King Ohio” on a legal pad, then the next attendee’s name and so on. Ohio Driver licenses don’t even list the person’s SS number, so that’s out. I mean, if people don’t like the idea of strangers at a show stealing their stuff, the idea of making people prove their identity seems like a decent step in the right direction. One thing is for sure- hesitation or reluctance to enhance security favors the bad guys. Trent King

If the purpose of showing IDs is to have a list of possible suspects when a theft occurs, then more information would need to be recorded than just a name and a state. There are a lot of John Smiths out there so at least an address would be needed as well to make the list useful in any way. Unfortunately, it probably doesn't take much for someone to get a fake ID to show so if potential criminals have one, the list becomes useless.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by jayshum

If the purpose of showing IDs is to have a list of possible suspects when a theft occurs, then more information would need to be recorded than just a name and a state. There are a lot of John Smiths out there so at least an address would be needed as well to make the list useful in any way. Unfortunately, it probably doesn't take much for someone to get a fake ID to show so if potential criminals have one, the list becomes useless.

It's a start and a very good cost effective start if you ask me. You can't have it all or both ways but you can take small little security measurements with limited costs involved such as this. This is just me but fine with producing a photo Id at shows.

[Steve_NY]

I contend that the National should show the way for other smaller shows. The National should set the bar on security. Is that too much to ask of them?

It's still up to booth holders to maintain their own security during and after the show.

I prefer cash payments but in the likely event that I will get checks or PayPal, at that time I require valid picture ID. Holding an item for a few days until checks clear is definitely a requirement. If the buyer balks at that, then it's time to be suspicious of their intentions.

Any other thoughts on security and how to handle that during and after the show closes for the evening?

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

It's a start and a very good cost effective start if you ask me. You can't have it all or both ways but you can take small little security measurements with limited costs involved such as this. This is just me but fine with producing a photo Id at shows.

Concur, especially at larger shows.

Look at jewelry stores. While most don’t ask for ID, you better believe you are being watched the whole time.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

A couple of notes. I can tell you that I (we) spent $55 per hour to have an Plano Police Officer on site during our synagogue show right after the Allen Outlet shooting. And that was a small 20 table show and we absorbed all the costs because of the short notice to dealers/customers. We could afford that cost because since I was not paying rent for the room we had some extra financial room.

After 10/7 we now have security at any our synagogue (including the card show) events. Better to be safe than sorry. But there is a real cost and we're lucky as a show we could absorb those costs. Not every promoter/table holder could absorb the true costs of extra security

I forgot to add we now require everyone to sign in to our show. I have not yet asked for ID's (I do know many of the people who attend) but that's also a safety issue for our show and I suspect many other shows as well. Has to do with liability. Many years ago I was giving a quick tour of the Beckett building to two very trustworthy people and they insisted on signing in to our guest list. Why? If something happened as they were not signed in I would be responsible. If something occured then Beckett would be responsible. it's actually protects the promoter to have sign ins. I wonder if we're ever going to get to that point at shows.

What liability is there in asking for IDS?

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I have to understand Steve's position here. The likely level of security for this documentation would be at an amateur's level. A low level hacker would likely be able to access if in the odd case they were unlikely to buy access to the information from a low paid security or data employee of the event. Thus providing not just names and photos, but home addresses of thousands of collectors that more than likely have collectables on premise. Let's be realistic, without documenting the license information in some way what does it really do at all? Are the weekend employees at the door of the National going to be able to memorize the information of 10s of thousands of visitors? It would need to be on a database for reference or it's complete waste of time...and that is a goldmine for information sales. The promoters would sell that attendee list to every auction house in the hobby the next week and then leave another million security holes.

I am sure I'll get massacred for even bringing it up, but if a huge percentage of the country is voting to state that simply asking for a federal or state photo ID to prove you can legally vote or even are who you say you are is somehow way over the line. What is the slightest chance that you can legally ask and document identification to enter a baseball card show if challenged?

As long as you weren't discriminating and were asking everyone for ID, I'm not sure why it would be illegal. I think the main issue would be many people being unwilling to provide it and therefore not come to the show.

[Kco]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I have to understand Steve's position here. The likely level of security for this documentation would be at an amateur's level. A low level hacker would likely be able to access if in the odd case they were unlikely to buy access to the information from a low paid security or data employee of the event. Thus providing not just names and photos, but home addresses of thousands of collectors that more than likely have collectables on premise. Let's be realistic, without documenting the license information in some way what does it really do at all? Are the weekend employees at the door of the National going to be able to memorize the information of 10s of thousands of visitors? It would need to be on a database for reference or it's complete waste of time...and that is a goldmine for information sales. The promoters would sell that attendee list to every auction house in the hobby the next week and then leave another million security holes.

I am sure I'll get massacred for even bringing it up, but if a huge percentage of the country is voting to state that simply asking for a federal or state photo ID to prove you can legally vote or even are who you say you are is somehow way over the line. What is the slightest chance that you can legally ask and document identification to enter a baseball card show if challenged?

Considering that tickets, at least to the National, are bought via CC and have names attached to them, this point is wildly overblown fear and elaborate.

Additionally people are petrified of handing over an ID to match names on the ticket but will readily do the same to purchase alcohol, pickup tickets from will call at sporting or other events, visit most buildings / workplaces (at least in most businesses and buildings nowadays). Additionally any ticket bought ahead would have billing attached to it. All someone checking ID needs to do is mark the ticket buyer there and that their tickets have been picked up, they don't need to input all ID info again.

Here is a newsflash, the paranoia of people to not want to hand over ID to enter a show is actually funny. People use ID virtually daily to do hundreds of different things. You'll show ti to prove who you are to fly, drive, buy alcohol, cigarettes. You'll tap a phone or CC reader with a chip card in 2.5 seconds without thinking twice. Guess what, ALL that data gets stored and is identifiable in the exact same manner. Also there is far more sensitive data embedded in both those devices.

If someone wants to steal they are going to do their best to do so, using due diligence and not flaunting big dollar items or large blocks of cash unnecessarily is a big key to all of this.

Of course, if your expensive pieces and big dollar items are in a display case for sale you're going to be openly displaying what you have to anyone walking by. Insure yourself accordingly,

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

SteveB- I’m afraid I disagree completely with your remark that showing ID to a show employee, would be like giving a Christmas list to thieves. The show employer/ID person is the least of someone’s worries at a card show. And a name and photo that matches the attendee, isn’t vital or sensitive information. I get it that some people just don’t want others to know who they are- even when they are legitimate in their attendance. I also know that resistance to something so basic is exactly the kind of thing that makes it difficult to provide the “better security” most people want. It won’t come without cost. The question the individual would need to answer within, is if showing a photo ID is actually a “cost”. Trent King

Showing an ID isn't a problem. Hopefully they have enough ticket/door staff to handle it.

When they start saving that data anywhere is when it becomes a security concern. Even a temporary list of attendees with their address is something a house breaker would probably be very interested in.
Include the full drivers license info or full info from all Ids, and it's not only a catalog of who might have cards or other stuff worth stealing, and when they will be out -obviously the next show- but a list that's saleable in many ways, many of them illegal.

And if you don't save the ID info even temporarily? I have no idea what value the fact that you'd looked at IDs would have to someone investigating a crime.
Nothing but meaningless security theater.

Yes, I do slightly worry about the door prize slips you fill out for a mailing list to be sent a notice about the next show, but you can usually opt out of putting your physical address.

[ClementeFanOh]

LEHR- if you truly believe that showing an ID I “jumping through a hoop”, then you may be part of the problem rather than the solution. The effort- if that’s even the right word- required to open a wallet and display a card is minimal. Jeesh…. Steve B- I didn’t state, nor would I want, ID checkers to copy a license or passport at the door. I’d suggest they make sure the photo on the ID matches the person holding it, and perhaps (I don’t run card shows) write name and ID type on a legal pad/IPad. That’s it, nothing more. Such an effort isn’t “meaningless security theater” IF it’s done diligently. It may well discourage potential thieves from even attempting the crime in the first place. The idea is for a combination of dealer vigilance and more formal security measures to put a dent in theft. The idea is sound, it breaks down only when promoters/dealers/customers insist that security is up to everyone but themselves. I don’t claim to have all the answers; however, pushing the problem or balking at basic concepts simply helps the bad guys. Trent King

[Rich Klein]

Is one of my friends had his "fanny pack full of cash" stolen from behind his table when the person next to him invited a whole bunch of people behind their table.

In this case, there was not a vendor pass or anything else required and it was a pure robbery of cash. Thankfully he could absorb the financial loss but it was a major wake up call for the DCS people.
'
So that theft may actually in retrospect help solve this theft.

Rich

[LEHR]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

LEHR- if you truly believe that showing an ID I “jumping through a hoop”, then you may be part of the problem rather than the solution. The effort- if that’s even the right word- required to open a wallet and display a card is minimal. Jeesh….

Once again you completely missed the point someone was trying to make.
Why should I have to take any extra steps when the burden of security should rely on the show promotor and the dealer. Hire more/better security. Actually be accountable for your inventory. And I'm not trying to be part of the solution as it's not my problem to solve.
Showing ID is just a Band-Aid for a much bigger problem and I also don't trust that a show promotor wouldn't sell my information if they could make a buck. We know this hobby is just full of upstanding citizens.

Just my $0.02. You don't have to agree with it.

[Yoda]

Given the lax gun laws in Texas, I wonder how many dealers were packing? I know I would draw down on some guy walking away with my case holding a couple of million bucks worth of some of the most precious cards in the hobby, while yelling for security, if there was any, at the top of my lungs.
Some 15 years on, I am still haunted by a theft at my table at a Ft. Washington show. Can't imagine how Ash feels.

[Johnny630]

Dealers could be packing but you're not going to be pulling your weapon on someone for just stealing/walking off with your merchandise. I'm all for lawful carry and protecting yourself but in this case a gun would have done nothing.

[sb1]

This was not an $80 or 100 card it was $2million worth. In our booth we have a police officer/dealer and another dealer with conceal carry and armed. Also there are Allen police officers in all parts of the building during show hours. Apparently not any after the show closes.

[G1911]

I'm a little disturbed some people appear to think that drawing a gun or shooting a snatch and grab thief at a card show is somehow realistic or appropriate. It's not in any way a reasonable response to a card thief in a room crowded with innocent people. Come on

[ClementeFanOh]

LEHR- You went from opinion to fact, and blew it. I have not "missed the
point". The point is that a hobby consisting of involvement from multiple
groups of people (hobbyists/dealers/show promoters), that is confronted by
a potentially serious problem affecting each group, can't simply pass the
problem to one group if they wish to address that problem fully and well.

Your take is, sadly, somewhat typical of a segment of the hobby: there's a
problem, I don't want to be stung by it, but I'm not willing to lift the
smallest finger to address it. The notion that showing a photo ID is
somehow supposed to be taxing and extraordinary is absurd, it makes no
sense. A person's "2 cents" must have some basis in reality, even if slight,
to be taken seriously. It's obvious this is everyone's problem rather than
everybody else's problem but mine. The issue is how best to resolve it.

Trent King