CSG status

[Peter_Spaeth]

I know they've been at it for a while now, I know they have a deal with PWCC, I know they are authenticating for ebay, and I know the head grader had a mostly favorable reputation from his Beckett days. But I have to say, when their cards come up in searches, I don't even look still. What are others doing and if people are buying them what are your opinions?

[Snapolit1]

I’m not either. I have no history with them and feel more comfortable assessing a PSA or SGC where I want a certain graded card.

[hcv123]

in terms of the quality and consistency of their grading. I will not buy their cards nor sell their cards for the time being.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I’m not either. I have no history with them and feel more comfortable assessing a PSA or SGC where I want a certain graded card.

+1 agree. Once more time passes and they prove themselves then I would consider it.

[ullmandds]

I would have no reservations buying a card in these slabs but I am not a high-grade collector. I also am planning to send a few oddball items that only they will grade.

[Lorewalker]

Yet to buy a CSG graded card and it is not in my future to do so any more than I would buy a BVG card. I see the two companies as the same not just because the head grader association. Neither BVG nor CSG are used regularly, if at all, by any of the auction houses which should say something. I feel both companies fill a niche in the hobby but it is at the collector and flipper levels.

As far as the well documented consistent problems with SGC and PSA both grading large volumes of altered cards and alleged favors to higher profile submitters my gut tells me there is a better chance a CSG card is graded more accurately. At the end of the day it is about the hobby's demand and the prices for CSG material is still below SGC which means the prices are well below PSA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It might be an interesting case study to analyze why, even with major issues affecting the reputations of and satisfaction with the largest industry players and even more so the past couple of years with the "scandal," it apparently remains so difficult for new entrants to join their ranks. I mean look at PSA, massive scandal over altered cards, major crisis with backlog, huge issues with grading fees, but it just cruises right along.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It might be an interesting case study to analyze why, even with major issues affecting the reputations of and satisfaction with the largest industry players and even more so the past couple of years with the "scandal," it apparently remains so difficult for new entrants to join their ranks. I mean look at PSA, massive scandal over altered cards, major crisis with backlog, huge issues with grading fees, but it just cruises right along.

i honestly thought the BODA findings would have a devastating affect on the hobby...NOPE! Too many people who don't know or just don't care.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i honestly thought the BODA findings would have a devastating affect on the hobby...NOPE! Too many people who don't know or just don't care.

The hobby yawned and moved on.

It's funny, for years I thought the only real risk to owning a lot of graded cards was a scandal, although I didn't foresee a BODA type thing but rather was worried some insider would break down end talk. Wrong. Teflon. Joe was absolutely right to play ostrich and just wait it out.

[hockeyhockey]

used them twice. the original time was an $8 bulk submission. kind of a cheap way to get a card pre-graded, i suppose. they are considered harsh graders, but most cards came back 9 or better.

the original flip was awful. sent a few 9.5 from the original to be re-slabbed as 10 in the new flip. as far as value, they are clearly lower on the market. but i'd consider buying their cards to bust out and re-submit to PSA (also sold a hockey card in a CSG 10 that got a pretty strong return...maybe $15 less than PSA).

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The hobby yawned and moved on.

It's funny, for years I thought the only thing real risk to owning a lot of graded cards was a scandal, although I didn't foresee a BODA type thing but rather was worried some insider would break down and talk. Wrong. Teflon. Joe was absolutely right to play ostrich and just wait it out.

ya...it's shocking that to date...no former graders have come out with the real truth about what goes on behind the curtain.

Someday!

[Lorewalker]

Everyone wants what everyone else wants. The scandal did not impact the demand for PSA and I doubt it influenced collectors' opinion that SGC or another company was a better choice. People doubled down and then some on PSA in spite of the information that was circulating.

My guess is that CSG is probably doing a much better job at grading than both SGC and PSA but the masses want PSA and if not some are willing to take SGC.

The disparity in the demand for PSA is multiple times that of SGC. SGC is probably the more consistent of the graders too.

[3-2-count]

Take a look how hideous T206’s display in their slab.

Vacuum sealed in a penny sleeve. No thanks.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Everyone wants what everyone else wants. The scandal did not impact the demand for PSA and I doubt it influenced collectors' opinion that SGC or another company was a better choice. People doubled down and then some on PSA in spite of the information that was circulating.

My guess is that CSG is probably doing a much better job at grading than both SGC and PSA but the masses want PSA and if not some are willing to take SGC.

The disparity in the demand for PSA is multiple times that of SGC. SGC is probably the more consistent of the graders too.

+1

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

ya...it's shocking that to date...no former graders have come out with the real truth about what goes on behind the curtain.

Someday!

I honestly don't get it. Maybe they're all cashing in on their connections (some doubtless are), I don't know.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

ya...it's shocking that to date...no former graders have come out with the real truth about what goes on behind the curtain.

Someday!

Yup! Whistleblowing is not paying the bills.

[glynparson]

I’ll buy in person not online. And the guy being from Beckett is in no way a positive to me. I find Beckett to have quality holders and joke grading. I get PSA and sgc miss things but not to the percent level Beckett has in my opinion. I trust Beckett about as much as I trust a raw card coming from someone exposed by blowout.

[abothebear]

Most people won’t change from what they are doing unless it is financially beneficial for them to do so. A job well-done, a more principles approach, or a better reputation sounds good. And people may wish for those things, or even speak out for or against a party with passionate and well-reasoned words, but they’ll vote with their wallets. And so, like with many things, whatever is will remain. One voters vote has no statistical impact on what happens, so why harm yourself to accomplish nothing? The buyer and seller aren’t going to be the agents of change. Perhaps if the markets did something there might be some movement, but even there, unless it was eBay, it would have to be a substantial group of auction houses that collectively decided not to take consignments of PSA cards (or SCG or whatever) before it started making a difference in the values relative to others.

I think PSA’s price increase and slow turn around have actually helped them maintain their value position. If it was cheap and fast to resubmit, more people would be in on the other graders’ sales in order to resubmit to PSA, driving up the values or this other graders’ cards.

[Leon]

I have some cards to be graded, which will be soon. They are going to CSG. Their VP of grading is hands down the best grader in the industry, imo.
.

[JimC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It might be an interesting case study to analyze why, even with major issues affecting the reputations of and satisfaction with the largest industry players and even more so the past couple of years with the "scandal," it apparently remains so difficult for new entrants to join their ranks. I mean look at PSA, massive scandal over altered cards, major crisis with backlog, huge issues with grading fees, but it just cruises right along.

Why do people still use big banks?

[luciobar1980]

All the grading companies are inconsistent and make mistakes, IMO. I've used CSG and like their holders, and their new labels are much better than the originals. I'll submit to CSG or SGC any day over PSA.

[JMANOS]

and will be a player in the near future no question. Best graders and BY FARRRR best customer service for sure IMO.

[kmac32]

They are reasonable for slabbing my S74 silks.

[frankbmd]

The hobby is it’s own worst enemy.

Monopolies control their market niche. Price fixing is a typical result. Customer service is irrelevant. Competition is not a factor. Having a million cards in a warehouse is an asset, not a problem. There will be more than a million in the warehouse when those are graded. Selling subjective and selective grades rather than cards to hype their intangible product is magic. Creating a Registry of their product is divine.

Customers belly ache about 12 month turn around times, but they still send their cards in for a number and a two bit slab. Appreciation in market value attracts fraudulent operators, who share the wealth with limited risk as long as they stay one step ahead of the $9/hour graders working in the sweatshop. What’s not to love?

It’s really hard to understand the impetus for anti-trust legistration, and the creation of Unions, when organizations like PSA are out there as role models. At least unionized card graders would be able to drink on the job.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I know they've been at it for a while now, I know they have a deal with PWCC, I know they are authenticating for ebay, and I know the head grader had a mostly favorable reputation from his Beckett days. But I have to say, when their cards come up in searches, I don't even look still. What are others doing and if people are buying them what are your opinions?

I don't have a 1. Wouldn't mind breaking my Cherry

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

The same guys that ditz CSG also said Amazon will never compete with Walmart.

[BobbyStrawberry]

I'd love to see them learn how to properly set a tobacco card in their slab. PSA also is inconsistent about this...

[Lorewalker]

While it is only one man's opinion, happened to stumble upon this https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...507423&page=24, the other day. See the short discussion from post 587 and on midway down the page.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't know for sure who that poster is, but there is no question from his body of work on Blowout that he is knowledgeable. That of course doesn't make him right on this matter of opinion, but it's concerning particularly as it relates to vintage.

[Lorewalker]

Even with a name, I take posts with a grain of salt. Just the other day, a regular on this board posted that the dude who allegedly stole cards from Gizmo had been arrested. When asked 3 times to show proof he has yet to post again.

I thought the posts on BO were interesting. I cannot speak to their accuracy. For all I know he hates Andy Broome because Andy got the head grader job at CSG.

[JustinD]

The original design was so god awful, I cracked anything with those green labels. I still would not pay a premium over ungraded, but would leave the cards in for the protection with the new design.

I don’t trust grading services but do buy graded cards. I have learned through experience that I will consider all cards with the perception they are ungraded and bid on my personal opinion. Although as it is my favorite case, I do enjoy the BVG cards.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

While it is only one man's opinion, happened to stumble upon this https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...507423&page=24, the other day. See the short discussion from post 587 and on midway down the page.

I have known Andy B for around 25 yrs and have spent many hours with him talking about grading. He is the best I have seen though I think there are a few senior graders at PSA that are really good too. Andy, while at BVG, did the scientific homework on my Yum Yum when SGC couldn't. OF course PSA agreed with Andy and put it in a 1 holder too. And there are more instances like this. I definitely would trust PSA and CSG over SGC for vintage, but that is just me.
.

[GasHouseGang]

I wouldn't say I'm a fan of CSG, but during the pandemic when the wait to get anything graded by PSA was over a year, some collectors submitted cards to CSG and then sold them on Net54. Here are a few I picked up. The green flip actually kind of works with these cards.

[1952boyntoncollector]

As time goes on and if they stick to doing a good job and dont sell out and lower standards or other sheniangians they got a good chance to keep getting more of a following.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

As time goes on and if they stick to doing a good job and dont sell out and lower standards or other sheniangians they got a good chance to keep getting more of a following.

Perhaps but if PSA keeps dropping its prices as seems inevitable, it's hard to imagine the incentive for most people to go to a non mainstream grader.

[Eric72]

Consider this purely hypothetical situation:

There are four identical copies of card #123 from the 1919 Super Duper Ball Card set. Same grade, same centering, etc., etc.

One is in a PSA holder, another SGC, one CSG, and one BVG. Asking prices below, and they're from the same seller...so your wheeling & dealing will amount to the same discount, if any.

PSA: $500
SGC: $450
CSG: $300
BVG: $300

Which one would you buy?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Perhaps but if PSA keeps dropping its prices as seems inevitable, it's hard to imagine the incentive for most people to go to a non mainstream grader.

right like the PGA tour suddenly going to pay more prizes to golfers now that LIV ..competition is good

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Consider this purely hypothetical situation:

There are four identical copies of card #123 from the 1919 Super Duper Ball Card set. Same grade, same centering, etc., etc.

One is in a PSA holder, another SGC, one CSG, and one BVG. Asking prices below, and they're from the same seller...so your wheeling & dealing will amount to the same discount, if any.

PSA: $500
SGC: $450
CSG: $300
BVG: $300

Which one would you buy?

depends on the grade and POP ....lower grades with high POP to me cross over a lot easier

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

depends on the grade and POP ....lower grades with high POP to me cross over a lot easier

The question has nothing to do with the Pop or grades.
He specifically said it's virtually the same card.

.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Leon

The question has nothing to do with the Pop or grades.
He specifically said it's virtually the same card.

.

right its the same card but what is the grade and POP of the this card, i dont think its crazy to consider that as a factor of whether you can crossover the card..

Like i wouldnt think a rickey henderson BVG 10 would cross to a PSA 10, but i would take my chances that a BVG 4 (and pay less) would cross to a PSA 4 for example..doesnt mean i will be wrong or right on the cross but i did think it was a ok question to ask

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Leon

The question has nothing to do with the Pop or grades.
He specifically said it's virtually the same card.

.

Its always about the POP. Popsicle. When will my cards pop. Balloon Knot Pop. Pop goes the weasel. POP POP. I'll have another Ice cold Sody Pop. I'm gonna have some Popcorn. I felt something Pop in my neck. Hop on Pop. What's the pop. Pop Pop Pop

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Consider this purely hypothetical situation:

There are four identical copies of card #123 from the 1919 Super Duper Ball Card set. Same grade, same centering, etc., etc.

One is in a PSA holder, another SGC, one CSG, and one BVG. Asking prices below, and they're from the same seller...so your wheeling & dealing will amount to the same discount, if any.

PSA: $500
SGC: $450
CSG: $300
BVG: $300

Which one would you buy?

It's a bad hypothetical because just from the slabs, the buyer could not be sure the cards were identical. You're injecting additional information. In a real world situation people have to make judgments about the competence of the TPG at detecting alterations, for example.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Consider this purely hypothetical situation:

There are four identical copies of card #123 from the 1919 Super Duper Ball Card set. Same grade, same centering, etc., etc.

One is in a PSA holder, another SGC, one CSG, and one BVG. Asking prices below, and they're from the same seller...so your wheeling & dealing will amount to the same discount, if any.

PSA: $500
SGC: $450
CSG: $300
BVG: $300

Which one would you buy?

As the cards are identical, I'd buy the CSG or the BVG every time. Buy the card not the holder. Why would I pay 60% more for the same card?

[G1911]

Raw for less than $300.

[Casey2296]

Specifically addressing pre-war and CSG. They spent 100's of thousands of $$ launching with a lime green label, all they had to do was come to this sub and see the multiple threads pointing out Lime green and pre war don't go together, not to mention the fact that the label is almost the size of a T206. Or, Andy could have taken Leon to lunch and asked what the ultimate pre war flip would look like, much cheaper approach.

That being said, they got rid of the lime green ptl and went to black and white. What they missed is the fact that prewar always looks better with a black apron, it's unbelievable to me that in today's advanced world (remember I can eat a banana in space with Musk if I have enough money) that you can't just have a pull down option, black apron or not? Hand cut black apron for your Scrapps tobacco? No problem, SGC won't do that.

Seriously, Andy is one of the best pre war graders out there, why wouldn't they just concentrate on capturing that market? Makes no sense to me.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

As the cards are identical, I'd buy the CSG or the BVG every time. Buy the card not the holder. Why would I pay 60% more for the same card?

Because part of the payment is the fact the card got a grade with PSA and there is a mystery whether you can get that same card in the same holder, the card is the same but you are submitting it to PSA at a later time, different person can be grading it, you are a different submitter than the person that submitted in previously so that part is not identical

plus you plan on selling the holder even if you are not buying the holder...sell the holder not the card..

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have known Andy B for around 25 yrs and have spent many hours with him talking about grading. He is the best I have seen though I think there are a few senior graders at PSA that are really good too. Andy, while at BVG, did the scientific homework on my Yum Yum when SGC couldn't. OF course PSA agreed with Andy and put it in a 1 holder too. And there are more instances like this. I definitely would trust PSA and CSG over SGC for vintage, but that is just me.
.

That is great to hear Leon. And at least you put your name to your opinion. Easy to talk BS when nobody knows who you are. As stated above, I imagine that CSG is doing a much better and more ethical job than both PSA and SGC.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

That is great to hear Leon. And at least you put your name to your opinion. Easy to talk BS when nobody knows who you are. As stated above, I imagine that CSG is doing a much better and more ethical job than both PSA and SGC.

My guess is we see some more from CSG. Stay tuned...
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Pip didn't put his name to his opinion but Glyn did and I have a lot of respect for his. And for Leon's.

[Lorewalker]

I have always avoided BVG material. Saw way too much that I did not like. I am not saying Glyn is wrong but are we now going to assume or conclude that Andy gave the green light to every vintage card that hit the market from BVG?

Not trying to get into a pissing contest because what I have learned over the last few years, very quickly, is that TPG is a pretty corrupt business when ya get down to it. Just a matter of to what degree.