Update: What would you do...

[T_Hamilton]

So, looks like I purchased a card that was submitted to PSA by Gary Moser and then sold to me through PWCC. The card in question is

42885921 1912 T227 Series Of Champions Ty Cobb PSA 1.5 FR (PWCC) 4/9/2019 ebay item: 401739877633

Curious as to what you would do if you owned this card? ask for a full refund? keep the card?

Any help is appreciated.

Thank you!

[Fballguy]

I'd return...Hard to see how any card with that lineage holds its value.

[jp1216]

Link:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/401739877633

[packs]

I'd keep it. Looks accurately graded assuming it's not altered and has nice eye appeal for the grade.

[obcmac]

Originally Posted by packs

assuming it's not altered

Huh? Did he buy this one and not alter it. That would be interesting.

[T_Hamilton]

It displays very nice for a 1.5 grade. I think the altering could have been soaking perhaps.

I am so bamboozled on what to do with the card... and so angry that someone has ruined the hobby i love.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by jp1216

Link:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/401739877633

That is a great looking card I doubt has been tampered with from the scan. They would have cleaned up the creases if it was messed with, imo. Of course, I would have a double good look at it and put it under a blacklight and loupe too. The corners still look a little frayed too (a good thing nowadays). It's a keeper if you ask me.
Also, you would need a before picture, I think, to know if it has been messed with. The stain removals on cards don't upset me as much as the other things, but that is just me. And many, if not most vintage collectors, don't consider soaking in water to be a nefarious act. It should be counted off as anything else but to me, it wouldn't mean a non-numeric grade.

I should also add, if it will make the OP always nervous, then it is an easy decision to sell it.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Leon

That is a great looking card I doubt has been tampered with from the scan.

Moser loves the T227 Cobb. There are two other T227 Cobbs that have already been outed as tampered with:

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1642

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2408

I am sure it has been cleaned, and given the amount of text fading on the reverse, not likely with water. The creases have also been pressed to make the card not look so rough. Soaked, cleaned and pressed. No doubt.

[packs]

Originally Posted by obcmac

Huh? Did he buy this one and not alter it. That would be interesting.

I guess I should have said trimmed and not altered. Not really seeing an issue with a possible soak. How many times have members posted threads on the board asking for help on how to soak?

[perezfan]

Agree with T206 Collector...

Though it appears nice for the grade, odds are it has had some problems "lessened" by means of alteration. Does not looked trimmed, but may have had some color added. Near-impossible to tell without having it in-hand.

For your own peace of mind, I'd suggest returning it. You'll probably NEVER be at peace with the card now, and will look more at the treated flaws than the card itself.

What a shame.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by packs

I guess I should have said trimmed and not altered. Not really seeing an issue with a possible soak. How many times have members posted threads on the board asking for help on how to soak?

He apparently uses a chemical bath -- not water -- and it affects the integrity of the cardboard and often seems to lighten the ink on the back. Would be nice to see the before, but I'm sure the guys over at BO would've found it when they were able to find the other two. Maybe it's still on its way...

[steve B]

I believe this is the before.

The scan here is overly bright, but the creases don't look much different.

Maybe just moved from SGC to PSA?

I'd save the scans/auctions, print them and keep them with the card. If any work has been done, it wasn't much.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1912_M...-LOT60474.aspx

[perezfan]

Yup... that's definitely the "before". Looks a bit more vibrant, but could just be the photography. Probably just a crossover, with little (if any) work done.

Nice job finding that!

[steve B]

While I was looking, I ran across this other T227 Cobb.

Oh the irony...

I usually think "well, maybe" for odd wear patterns. But this one looks rather suspect. And was sold through Heritage.

https://www.psacard.com/cardfacts/mu...aseball/560029

[Rhotchkiss]

The psa 3 t227 is mine. The guys on blowout expressly admit that they cannot find any alteration. I have looked at it under a loop and can’t find anything (but I am hardly an expert). Yes, the card used to reside in an an SGC A flip and now is in a psa 3, but that could be a difference of opinion. Do I like that it went from an SGC A to a psa 3 through a Moser submission, he’ll no. But that alone is not damning. Neither blowout nor myself can find evidence of tampering and even on blowout they suggest bc of this card that they limit posts only to those cards with evidence of tampering and not get into opinion differences between SGC and PSA.

I fear there will be a lot of collateral damage here. I suppose that’s the price we all pay, so be it, but I do fear many good cards will be taken down with the bad .

[Exhibitman]

I'd try and get a full refund while the getting is good. The card may be legit, but given its history it likely is not 100%. This is supposed to be fun, a not source of stress, so who needs to fret over the history of the card?

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by steve B

I believe this is the before.

The scan here is overly bright, but the creases don't look much different.

Maybe just moved from SGC to PSA?

I'd save the scans/auctions, print them and keep them with the card. If any work has been done, it wasn't much.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1912_M...-LOT60474.aspx

Yeah, looks like the same card. Looks like not much done other then a crossover and a popping of the colors by the scanner, unless there's some sort of a brightener that could be used on the card itself.

I mean, just the crossover and the phrase: "A world-class copy for the assessment and recommended by PWCC.", netted Moser an extra grand in bids.

Not a bad job if you can get it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's Gary Moser there have to be certain presumptions at this point. So it comes down to your tolerance level for uncertainty, as well as types of alteration, I guess.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

The psa 3 t227 is mine. The guys on blowout expressly admit that they cannot find any alteration. I have looked at it under a loop and can’t find anything (but I am hardly an expert). Yes, the card used to reside in an an SGC A flip and now is in a psa 3, but that could be a difference of opinion. Do I like that it went from an SGC A to a psa 3 through a Moser submission, he’ll no. But that alone is not damning. Neither blowout nor myself can find evidence of tampering and even on blowout they suggest bc of this card that they limit posts only to those cards with evidence of tampering and not get into opinion differences between SGC and PSA.

I fear there will be a lot of collateral damage here. I suppose that’s the price we all pay, so be it, but I do fear many good cards will be taken down with the bad .

First, apologies for what was probably a somewhat hasty assessment. That's exactly why I don't usually go straight to trimming when I see an odd wear pattern. I don't follow blowout, so I had no idea it had already been covered.


It's interesting that there isn't any obvious alteration despite how it looks.
I've had a couple cards that I knew were unaltered get rejected by SGC that would have been given an A if I hadn't checked the right box. And considering how I just made a snap judgement, I think they handled it right by not grading cards that would appear altered.

I think in some cases, he might just be moving cards to PSA believing that they will sell for more as well as sending through a bunch of altered ones.
The companies do grade differently, and with expensive cards picking up ones that SGC didn't like much but that PSA would give a better grade to might be profitable.

[T_Hamilton]

Originally Posted by steve B

I believe this is the before.

The scan here is overly bright, but the creases don't look much different.

Maybe just moved from SGC to PSA?

I'd save the scans/auctions, print them and keep them with the card. If any work has been done, it wasn't much.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1912_M...-LOT60474.aspx

Steve thank you for finding this. I cant see much difference between the SGC and PSA. Will be starring at the card under a loop, black light and other lights later this evening. I really appreciate all of the help from the stellar members at N54.

[ejharrington]

What about sending it to PSA for a re-evaluation after explaining the situation? Does anyone think that is a good (or bad) idea?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

What about sending it to PSA for a re-evaluation after explaining the situation? Does anyone think that is a good (or bad) idea?

I would consider sending to SGC. PSA’s incentives on this one are not good.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I would consider sending to SGC. PSA’s incentives on this one are not good.

Agreed, unfortunately.

[drcy]

I would return it for full refund if that's doable. But that's my opinion, and it's your card/decision, and I won't tell you what to do. You're obviously making the choice thoughtfully.

But, whether or not it is altered, you'll have to convince skeptics at sale that it is not altered, which will be tough considering its provenance. If it comes from Moser/PWCC, the default with many people is that it's been altered. As far as alterations/grade (as opposed to autograph authenticity), Moser provenance is likely on part with Coach's Corner now.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

What about sending it to PSA for a re-evaluation after explaining the situation? Does anyone think that is a good (or bad) idea?

My plan is to send it to PSA for re-review (along with one other of mine that has not been called out but that I just never felt totally comfortable about). If PSA certifies it/them, a second time, then I have that and I can feel comfortable disclosing that to any future owner (not that I am looking to part with either).

I once owned a T206 Red Cobb Piedmont Fact 42 in a BVG 7 flip. I bought it from a well known T206 dealer, who gave me what sounded like a plausible reason for why he was selling it (and it still resided) in a BVG flip. I asked SGC to encapsulate it, but it was rejected for failure to meet minimum grade, which I put down as a 6. Later, at the Philly show, I showed it to several people, all of whom stated "it needed to stay in the BVG flip". While I strongly suspected, I never had firm proof it was trimmed and I grew to hate the card. So, I called up the dealer and strongly suggested he buy it back at discount, which he did. I kind of feel that way about my T227, although I am much less convinced that it has been altered than I am about the T206 Cobb. I will let PSA be the arbiter.

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by drcy

I would return it for full refund if that's doable. But that's my opinion, and it's your card/decision, and I won't tell you what to do. You're obviously making the choice thoughtfully.

But, whether or not it is altered, you'll have to convince skeptics at sale that it is not altered, which will be tough considering its provenance. If it comes from Moser/PWCC, the default with many people is that it's been altered. As far as alterations/grade (as opposed to autograph authenticity), Moser provenance is likely on part with Coach's Corner now.

This is what I would do. I would think that a large percentage of potential buyers would not be interested if you were to tell them the provenance of your card. If you plan on taking it to your grave, then that's another story.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

My plan is to send it to PSA for re-review (along with one other of mine that has not been called out but that I just never felt totally comfortable about). If PSA certifies it/them, a second time, then I have that and I can feel comfortable disclosing that to any future owner (not that I am looking to part with either).

I once owned a T206 Red Cobb Piedmont Fact 42 in a BVG 7 flip. I bought it from a well known T206 dealer, who gave me what sounded like a plausible reason for why he was selling it (and it still resided) in a BVG flip. I asked SGC to encapsulate it, but it was rejected for failure to meet minimum grade, which I put down as a 6. Later, at the Philly show, I showed it to several people, all of whom stated "it needed to stay in the BVG flip". While I strongly suspected, I never had firm proof it was trimmed and I grew to hate the card. So, I called up the dealer and strongly suggested he buy it back at discount, which he did. I kind of feel that way about my T227, although I am much less convinced that it has been altered than I am about the T206 Cobb. I will let PSA be the arbiter.

Wow. With that strategy, PSA makes even more money. They actually benefit from their own ineptitude. Quite the unique business model... perhaps a good case study for future college students!

I agree with the others, that the card should simply be returned.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

He apparently uses a chemical bath -- not water -- and it affects the integrity of the cardboard and often seems to lighten the ink on the back.

Using anything other than water to soak a card is VERY bad. The paper can turn brittle down the line and start breaking. I would send it back.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Wow. With that strategy, PSA makes even more money. They actually benefit from their own ineptitude. Quite the unique business model... perhaps a good case study for future college students!

I agree with the others, that the card should simply be returned.

I did not buy the card from PWCC or PSA. To whom do I return the card to? And what if PSA determines the card is correctly graded, they will not even honor the guaranty, because in their mind there is nothing to guaranty. Lets live in the real world.

[perezfan]

I probably read too fast, and thought it did come from PWCC... very sorry.

If you bought it from eBay, then you should be covered by their Buyer Protection Plan. Returns have taken place for much more trivial matters, and they always tend to side with the Buyers.

If it was not an eBay purchase, then I do not have an answer. I guess your planned course of action is probably the least of the evils.

[Rhotchkiss]

I actually think it was a BST transaction with a board member. PSA recertify is my plan.

[perezfan]

Owning up to my mistake... I took the time to read the thread more slowly, and realize that I confused you with the OP (who's card DID come from PWCC).

Sorry again for the confusion and resulting inapplicable post to your situation.

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I actually think it was a BST transaction with a board member. PSA recertify is my plan.

Rhotchkiss- You're in a tough spot. I hope PSA gives you an honest look. I'm not really familiar with the T227s, but it looks awfully short compared to the others.

[JeremyW]

It just sucks that someone thought that they should try to improve these two cards just for money.

[Fuddjcal]

Wow, what a nice card Moser ruined.

Look, this is what Moser does, he tampers with cards and resells them with PWCC. I would most definitely shove this card right back down Brent Mastro's throat. They are both scammers since day 1. $3,300 is a lot of $$$ to some and I would never give that snake oil salesman grifter the benefit of the doubt. I would ask for an immediate REFUND TOOT SWEET!

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Wow, what a nice card Moser ruined.

Look, this is what Moser does, he tampers with cards and resells them with PWCC. I would most definitely shove this card right back down Brent Mastro's throat. They are both scammers since day 1. $3,300 is a lot of $$$ to some and I would never give that snake oil salesman grifter the benefit of the doubt. I would ask for an immediate REFUND TOOT SWEET!

These two are not the same card. I just wanted to show the difference in sizes.

[Republicaninmass]

Return, buy it back for less, or buy a different one and sleep well at ught.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Owning up to my mistake... I took the time to read the thread more slowly, and realize that I confused you with the OP (who's card DID come from PWCC).

Sorry again for the confusion and resulting inapplicable post to your situation.

No worries!!

Jeremy, it does look short compared to the other, but the corners are real rounded and look naturally so, which is not what you would expect on trimmed edges. Mine is Miners extra, I don’t know if that makes a difference or if these cards have size differences like t206s. All I am saying is card in hand, the corners and edges don’t look like you would expect if trimmed.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Wow, what a nice card Moser ruined.

Look, this is what Moser does, he tampers with cards and resells them with PWCC. I would most definitely shove this card right back down Brent Mastro's throat. They are both scammers since day 1. $3,300 is a lot of $$$ to some and I would never give that snake oil salesman grifter the benefit of the doubt. I would ask for an immediate REFUND TOOT SWEET!

Good luck getting Huigens to do anything....

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

No worries!!

Jeremy, it does look short compared to the other, but the corners are real rounded and look naturally so, which is not what you would expect on trimmed edges. Mine is Miners extra, I don’t know if that makes a difference or if these cards have size differences like t206s. All I am saying is card in hand, the corners and edges don’t look like you would expect if trimmed.

I can tell that you really like the hobby so I'm rooting for you.

[lloydchristmas]

Excuse my ignorance, but how are we determining what cards were submitted by Moser?

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by packs

I'd keep it. Looks accurately graded assuming it's not altered and has nice eye appeal for the grade.

Also to be considered: if it really has the Moser provenance and is not altered, doesn't that raise the scarcity to new levels? Could this be a 1 of 1 un-altered Moser T227 Cobb. If all other examples are proven to be altered or conserved, then this one could really be a unique item.

Maybe PSA would assign this a "Pedigree flip" like the Lionel Carter Collection ones, but this one could say "Gary Moser Un-altered".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Between how short the 3 is and the fact SGC only gave it an A, I would look to review it if you can't return it. And I would look to SGC. The problem with PSA review is that if they missed something once it's likely to happen twice, and they have financial incentive to bless it again.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

No worries!!

Jeremy, it does look short compared to the other, but the corners are real rounded and look naturally so, which is not what you would expect on trimmed edges. Mine is Miners extra, I don’t know if that makes a difference or if these cards have size differences like t206s. All I am saying is card in hand, the corners and edges don’t look like you would expect if trimmed.

But keep in mind Gary's expertise is disguising such things.

[Rhotchkiss]

I am going to send it to PSA under the guaranty review. It will be what it be. Not too worried. I am sure I will have several casualties in all this- a t227 Cobb is not the end of the world for me. Nice card though and it’s a shame this idiot hacked so many rare cards- yup, makes the unaltered ones even more rare.

[T_Hamilton]

So quick update here... i decided i just couldnt have the card in my collection... i would always wonder and feel bad selling to someone else without certainty it was unaltered. I decided to take the high route and write a polite email to Brent at PWCC. Here is what I wrote:

"Brent –

In light of the recent scandal with Gary Moser, I would like to return my T227 Ty Cobb PSA 1.5 purchased from you in April 2019. As your website states, PWCC is focused on “trading on trust”

This card was submitted by Gary Moser to PSA and then sold by Gary Moser through PWCC. I just can’t have a card like in my collection.

I trust you will do the right thing and accept my return and issue me a full refund.

Thank you kindly,

Taylor Hamilton"

Brent replied with this:

"Taylor,

The message boards have many things wrong. This card was not consigned by Gary Moser (just FYI). More importantly It also shows no signs of alteration, and as such this isn’t a card we can directly enforce our return policy.

These boards are out of control in many ways, and are defacing cards for little reason and I’m sorry for this slander against a card you own. If you’d like you can certainly always send the card to PSA for their reconfirmation of the grade and it’s accuracy. Soon we also hope to have a program in place where we can facilitate this review for cards which have been slandered on the boards. If you’d like to check back later this month we hope to have that option in place."

The slime coming off this guy is unreal. I trust anyone on the message boards more than I do this guy... any thoughts would be appreciated, is it time to start getting a class action lawsuit together? a flight up to Portland?

Best,

Taylor

[bobbyw8469]

Taylor, until the dust settles, I would try to avoid buying cards from PWCC for the current time. Not sure if Probstein is affected, but PWCC is DEFINITELY the preferred stomping ground of Gary Moser. I'm sorry that you are dealing with this now.

[T_Hamilton]

Thanks! Just trying to get my money back and return the card. I will never be doing business with PWCC again. They cant be trusted and when times get tough they bury their head in the sand and provide horrible communication and customer service. No doubt, there business is going to take a tremendous hit and may not survive.

Taylor Hamilton

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by T_Hamilton

So quick update here... i decided i just couldnt have the card in my collection... i would always wonder and feel bad selling to someone else without certainty it was unaltered. I decided to take the high route and write a polite email to Brent at PWCC. Here is what I wrote:

"Brent –

In light of the recent scandal with Gary Moser, I would like to return my T227 Ty Cobb PSA 1.5 purchased from you in April 2019. As your website states, PWCC is focused on “trading on trust”

This card was submitted by Gary Moser to PSA and then sold by Gary Moser through PWCC. I just can’t have a card like in my collection.

I trust you will do the right thing and accept my return and issue me a full refund.

Thank you kindly,

Taylor Hamilton"

Brent replied with this:

"Taylor,

The message boards have many things wrong. This card was not consigned by Gary Moser (just FYI). More importantly It also shows no signs of alteration, and as such this isn’t a card we can directly enforce our return policy.

These boards are out of control in many ways, and are defacing cards for little reason and I’m sorry for this slander against a card you own. If you’d like you can certainly always send the card to PSA for their reconfirmation of the grade and it’s accuracy. Soon we also hope to have a program in place where we can facilitate this review for cards which have been slandered on the boards. If you’d like to check back later this month we hope to have that option in place."

The slime coming off this guy is unreal. I trust anyone on the message boards more than I do this guy... any thoughts would be appreciated, is it time to start getting a class action lawsuit together? a flight up to Portland?

Best,

Taylor

What a shock that Brent would respond in that manner. You are still protected by eBay and PayPal (if indeed you used PayPal to pay). I would file a claim with eBay ASAP, and they will assist you with the return process. Items have been successfully refunded for a lot less.

Best of luck, and keep us posted!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Can you link to the BO post that outed this card?