Update: What would you do...

[steve B]

I believe this is the before.

The scan here is overly bright, but the creases don't look much different.

Maybe just moved from SGC to PSA?

I'd save the scans/auctions, print them and keep them with the card. If any work has been done, it wasn't much.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1912_M...-LOT60474.aspx

[perezfan]

Yup... that's definitely the "before". Looks a bit more vibrant, but could just be the photography. Probably just a crossover, with little (if any) work done.

Nice job finding that!

[steve B]

While I was looking, I ran across this other T227 Cobb.

Oh the irony...

I usually think "well, maybe" for odd wear patterns. But this one looks rather suspect. And was sold through Heritage.

https://www.psacard.com/cardfacts/mu...aseball/560029

[Rhotchkiss]

The psa 3 t227 is mine. The guys on blowout expressly admit that they cannot find any alteration. I have looked at it under a loop and can’t find anything (but I am hardly an expert). Yes, the card used to reside in an an SGC A flip and now is in a psa 3, but that could be a difference of opinion. Do I like that it went from an SGC A to a psa 3 through a Moser submission, he’ll no. But that alone is not damning. Neither blowout nor myself can find evidence of tampering and even on blowout they suggest bc of this card that they limit posts only to those cards with evidence of tampering and not get into opinion differences between SGC and PSA.

I fear there will be a lot of collateral damage here. I suppose that’s the price we all pay, so be it, but I do fear many good cards will be taken down with the bad .

[Exhibitman]

I'd try and get a full refund while the getting is good. The card may be legit, but given its history it likely is not 100%. This is supposed to be fun, a not source of stress, so who needs to fret over the history of the card?

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's Gary Moser there have to be certain presumptions at this point. So it comes down to your tolerance level for uncertainty, as well as types of alteration, I guess.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

The psa 3 t227 is mine. The guys on blowout expressly admit that they cannot find any alteration. I have looked at it under a loop and can’t find anything (but I am hardly an expert). Yes, the card used to reside in an an SGC A flip and now is in a psa 3, but that could be a difference of opinion. Do I like that it went from an SGC A to a psa 3 through a Moser submission, he’ll no. But that alone is not damning. Neither blowout nor myself can find evidence of tampering and even on blowout they suggest bc of this card that they limit posts only to those cards with evidence of tampering and not get into opinion differences between SGC and PSA.

I fear there will be a lot of collateral damage here. I suppose that’s the price we all pay, so be it, but I do fear many good cards will be taken down with the bad .

First, apologies for what was probably a somewhat hasty assessment. That's exactly why I don't usually go straight to trimming when I see an odd wear pattern. I don't follow blowout, so I had no idea it had already been covered.


It's interesting that there isn't any obvious alteration despite how it looks.
I've had a couple cards that I knew were unaltered get rejected by SGC that would have been given an A if I hadn't checked the right box. And considering how I just made a snap judgement, I think they handled it right by not grading cards that would appear altered.

I think in some cases, he might just be moving cards to PSA believing that they will sell for more as well as sending through a bunch of altered ones.
The companies do grade differently, and with expensive cards picking up ones that SGC didn't like much but that PSA would give a better grade to might be profitable.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by steve B

I believe this is the before.

The scan here is overly bright, but the creases don't look much different.

Maybe just moved from SGC to PSA?

I'd save the scans/auctions, print them and keep them with the card. If any work has been done, it wasn't much.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1912_M...-LOT60474.aspx

Yeah, looks like the same card. Looks like not much done other then a crossover and a popping of the colors by the scanner, unless there's some sort of a brightener that could be used on the card itself.

I mean, just the crossover and the phrase: "A world-class copy for the assessment and recommended by PWCC.", netted Moser an extra grand in bids.

Not a bad job if you can get it.

[T_Hamilton]

Originally Posted by steve B

I believe this is the before.

The scan here is overly bright, but the creases don't look much different.

Maybe just moved from SGC to PSA?

I'd save the scans/auctions, print them and keep them with the card. If any work has been done, it wasn't much.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1912_M...-LOT60474.aspx

Steve thank you for finding this. I cant see much difference between the SGC and PSA. Will be starring at the card under a loop, black light and other lights later this evening. I really appreciate all of the help from the stellar members at N54.

[ejharrington]

What about sending it to PSA for a re-evaluation after explaining the situation? Does anyone think that is a good (or bad) idea?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

What about sending it to PSA for a re-evaluation after explaining the situation? Does anyone think that is a good (or bad) idea?

I would consider sending to SGC. PSA’s incentives on this one are not good.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I would consider sending to SGC. PSA’s incentives on this one are not good.

Agreed, unfortunately.

[drcy]

I would return it for full refund if that's doable. But that's my opinion, and it's your card/decision, and I won't tell you what to do. You're obviously making the choice thoughtfully.

But, whether or not it is altered, you'll have to convince skeptics at sale that it is not altered, which will be tough considering its provenance. If it comes from Moser/PWCC, the default with many people is that it's been altered. As far as alterations/grade (as opposed to autograph authenticity), Moser provenance is likely on part with Coach's Corner now.

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by drcy

I would return it for full refund if that's doable. But that's my opinion, and it's your card/decision, and I won't tell you what to do. You're obviously making the choice thoughtfully.

But, whether or not it is altered, you'll have to convince skeptics at sale that it is not altered, which will be tough considering its provenance. If it comes from Moser/PWCC, the default with many people is that it's been altered. As far as alterations/grade (as opposed to autograph authenticity), Moser provenance is likely on part with Coach's Corner now.

This is what I would do. I would think that a large percentage of potential buyers would not be interested if you were to tell them the provenance of your card. If you plan on taking it to your grave, then that's another story.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

What about sending it to PSA for a re-evaluation after explaining the situation? Does anyone think that is a good (or bad) idea?

My plan is to send it to PSA for re-review (along with one other of mine that has not been called out but that I just never felt totally comfortable about). If PSA certifies it/them, a second time, then I have that and I can feel comfortable disclosing that to any future owner (not that I am looking to part with either).

I once owned a T206 Red Cobb Piedmont Fact 42 in a BVG 7 flip. I bought it from a well known T206 dealer, who gave me what sounded like a plausible reason for why he was selling it (and it still resided) in a BVG flip. I asked SGC to encapsulate it, but it was rejected for failure to meet minimum grade, which I put down as a 6. Later, at the Philly show, I showed it to several people, all of whom stated "it needed to stay in the BVG flip". While I strongly suspected, I never had firm proof it was trimmed and I grew to hate the card. So, I called up the dealer and strongly suggested he buy it back at discount, which he did. I kind of feel that way about my T227, although I am much less convinced that it has been altered than I am about the T206 Cobb. I will let PSA be the arbiter.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

My plan is to send it to PSA for re-review (along with one other of mine that has not been called out but that I just never felt totally comfortable about). If PSA certifies it/them, a second time, then I have that and I can feel comfortable disclosing that to any future owner (not that I am looking to part with either).

I once owned a T206 Red Cobb Piedmont Fact 42 in a BVG 7 flip. I bought it from a well known T206 dealer, who gave me what sounded like a plausible reason for why he was selling it (and it still resided) in a BVG flip. I asked SGC to encapsulate it, but it was rejected for failure to meet minimum grade, which I put down as a 6. Later, at the Philly show, I showed it to several people, all of whom stated "it needed to stay in the BVG flip". While I strongly suspected, I never had firm proof it was trimmed and I grew to hate the card. So, I called up the dealer and strongly suggested he buy it back at discount, which he did. I kind of feel that way about my T227, although I am much less convinced that it has been altered than I am about the T206 Cobb. I will let PSA be the arbiter.

Wow. With that strategy, PSA makes even more money. They actually benefit from their own ineptitude. Quite the unique business model... perhaps a good case study for future college students!

I agree with the others, that the card should simply be returned.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Wow. With that strategy, PSA makes even more money. They actually benefit from their own ineptitude. Quite the unique business model... perhaps a good case study for future college students!

I agree with the others, that the card should simply be returned.

I did not buy the card from PWCC or PSA. To whom do I return the card to? And what if PSA determines the card is correctly graded, they will not even honor the guaranty, because in their mind there is nothing to guaranty. Lets live in the real world.

[perezfan]

I probably read too fast, and thought it did come from PWCC... very sorry.

If you bought it from eBay, then you should be covered by their Buyer Protection Plan. Returns have taken place for much more trivial matters, and they always tend to side with the Buyers.

If it was not an eBay purchase, then I do not have an answer. I guess your planned course of action is probably the least of the evils.