Issue with Probstein (and nothing to do with Shill Bidding)

[AddieJoss]

I have purchased from and consigned with Probstein many times over the past couple of years.

Over 9 weeks ago I consigned several graded T3s, a couple dozen graded T206s, and about 80 near mint and mint cards from the 50s and 60s. The 50s and 60s were raw and had higher than .99 minimum bids (most $9.99), and many did not sell (roughly 40-50). Shortly after the auctions ended, I won a couple of his auctions and asked him to include these unsold cards in the package. He did not.

Now 7 weeks later, I still have not received the cards back and Probstein has not replied to my last 2 emails. Initially, there was excuse that he was moving locations, then it was the National is coming up and he didn't have time, and then it was the National and he was too busy, and then he actually asked me to go to his location and sort through things until I find the cards. And he wants me to give him all the item numbers. I actually had several of the item numbers, but not all and that still hasn't helped. I've previously spoken to him twice and he dismisses my inquiries.

In summary, my cards are missing and I can not get a reply from Probstein, and he has made it clear he has no intention of making good on said lost cards. I mention this as a precautionary tale (and I have purchased dozens of cards and consigned many thousands of dollars of cards to Probstein).
Cory Weiser

[Mike Roche]

I don't know what's going on, but Probstien's name has been all over every forum every forum lately. I've never bought or sold with him but I've been hearing a lot of complaints about him in the last few days.

[AddieJoss]

I don't think I'm being harsh like other folks, or have consipacy theories. He has a large business going on, but there is a clear lack of organization and customer service as of late. I won't speak to the other posts about other issues unrelated but I just want to get my cards back and I'm not sure how to do so.
Cory

[Duluth Eskimo]

Well, if you're an active member on here and you've read the many Probstein threads I'm not sure what to tell you. When you deal with the devil, sometimes you get burnt. It might be harsh in the reference, but when you get in bed with a thief you shouldn't expect him play fair.

[Duluth Eskimo]

I don't want you to think I don't feel for you. That sucks big time and I would be extremely pissed off too. I just think you should have known better. Hopefully you will get them back one way or another. Good luck

[Peter_Spaeth]

Why should he have known better? I don't think to date anyone has questioned Rick's customer service.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why should he have known better? I don't think to date anyone has questioned Rick's customer service.

I think it's his customers bidding patterns which have been questioned often and rightfully so.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think to date anyone has questioned Rick's customer service.

I'm not sure about this forum, but on the CU boards there have definitely been some other consignors that weren't happy with Probstein's customer service for one reason or another.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think it's his customers bidding patterns which have been questioned often and rightfully so.

Rich's issues are not limited to his customers' bidding patterns. Rick has some Rick issues with certain of his own items which have also miraculously been run up.

[Shoeless Moe]

when you consigned did you pay extra for the shilling service?

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

when you consigned did you pay extra for the shilling service?

I'd like to nominate this as post of the month......

[mrkrab]

I recently sold an item to a customer on ebay and the same item showed up in a probstein auction and the same customer was bidding on the item. Seems dirty!

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why should he have known better? I don't think to date anyone has questioned Rick's customer service.

Are you kidding me??? I suppose we should consider consigning with Legendary as well. To even remotely support this clown is ridiculous.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Are you kidding me??? I suppose we should consider consigning with Legendary as well. To even remotely support this clown is ridiculous.

Not kidding you at all. There is a huge difference between the crap that goes on on the auction side and customer service. PWCC, as far as I can tell, has spotless customer service despite questions that have been raised about their auctions and scans. I had thought the same was true of Rick, at least I hadn't seen anything on this forum suggesting otherwise. I am not ENDORSING supporting these people, just questioning your suggestion that the OP should have expected this. He shouldn't have.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not kidding you at all. There is a huge difference between the crap that goes on on the auction side and customer service. PWCC, as far as I can tell, has spotless customer service despite questions that have been raised about their auctions and scans. I had thought the same was true of Rick, at least I hadn't seen anything on this forum suggesting otherwise. I am not ENDORSING supporting these people, just questioning your suggestion that the OP should have expected this. He shouldn't have.

Does "spotless customer service" take into account rampant fraud on a high percentage of his auctions in which customers get defrauded?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Does "spotless customer service" take into account rampant fraud on a high percentage of his auctions in which customers get defrauded?

No, as I said, I consider them different things altogether. Customer service is handling consignments, paying consignors timely, shipping timely and securely, etc.

[Duluth Eskimo]

I understand what you are getting at, but when there's smoke there is generally fire. If someone is willing to commit fraud all the while being blasted publicly for it and showing no intention of stopping, stealing someone's cards is not too far of a stretch.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I suppose, but the counterargument is that their customer service is what wins them their fan base (and their apologists).

[refz]

I consigned with rick once in either 2010 or 2011. I did alright in in the auctions , but thought I could have done alot better. He called me with final prices and promptly mailed my check. But ive also heard alot the stories of late and probably would not consign again. Lately too, I havent seen him setting up at as many shows anymore. But overall, I found him to be a nice guy and treated me well and I have no complaints, just surprised.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

I understand what you are getting at, but when there's smoke there is generally fire. If someone is willing to commit fraud all the while being blasted publicly for it and showing no intention of stopping, stealing someone's cards is not too far of a stretch.

Jason- No offense, but that's crazy....

[Tabe]

On the CU forums, in addition to the standard shilling posts, there have been multiple posts regarding Probstein's customer service. Specifically, I recall incorrectly labeling auctions, leaving out specifically requested information from auction titles, lumping cards into lots instead of as singles as requested, and so on.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Tabe

On the CU forums, in addition to the standard shilling posts, there have been multiple posts regarding Probstein's customer service. Specifically, I recall incorrectly labeling auctions, leaving out specifically requested information from auction titles, lumping cards into lots instead of as singles as requested, and so on.

In the midst of the shilling accusations, which seems to go on and on in numerous threads, and then some... I will say this.. I have done business with this guy for many years. No issues pertaining shipping, misrepresentation on auctions, and poor customer service.

[Peter_Spaeth]

His feedback is 100 percent, although he has 122 neutrals and 18 negatives. To me, 100 percent is a perfect record, but I guess ebay rounds up?

[Matt E.]

His turn is coming.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Explain to me what is crazy about it? That he satisfies high end customers and f's over the lesser along with shilling auctions? Doesn't seem crazy to me. It sounds right on point.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Explain to me what is crazy about it? That he satisfies high end customers and f's over the lesser along with shilling auctions? Doesn't seem crazy to me. It sounds right on point.

Nothing...

With all the fraud in our hobby being brought to light….having that thought or concern cross one’s mind seems far from crazy. Now if you said aliens from area 51 were taking the cards off world…I would agree that’s crazy everyone knows aliens hate baseball.

[MMarvelli]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why should he have known better? I don't think to date anyone has questioned Rick's customer service.

Regarding customer service...I recently sent an inquiry to Rick regarding a Dixie Lids Hubbell asking if it was the large or small example. His reply was "I'm not sure, sorry"...end of reply. Seriously, you are selling cards as a business? A potential buyer asks a question that should have been stated in the description, and you dont know and dont bother to know? That to me is a lazy seller that cares less for customer service.


Just one man's opinion.

[PM770]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

His feedback is 100 percent, although he has 122 neutrals and 18 negatives. To me, 100 percent is a perfect record, but I guess ebay rounds up?

How can feedback be 100% if there are 18 negatives? Is his feedback being shilled too?

[jhs5120]

I'm surprised no one mentioned he's in the process of moving.. I visited his offices a couple weeks ago and everything was being packed up and moved. If you've ever seen the amount of inventory in his office you'd understand how much of a hassle it must be.

To the OP; there's no excuse for bad customer service, but I would give him a call instead of email. I've found that when an item doesn't sell it ends up as a very low priority. I'm sure he'll be happy enough to mail the cards back to you or relist them. It has happened to me before.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Explain to me what is crazy about it? That he satisfies high end customers and f's over the lesser along with shilling auctions? Doesn't seem crazy to me. It sounds right on point.

Jason- My response of "being crazy" was based on your point about him stealing cards being not to far of a stretch...Nothing at all pertaining shilling accusations...

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Jason- My response of "being crazy" was based on your point about him stealing cards being not to far of a stretch...Nothing at all pertaining shilling accusations...

Yeah, I can't imagine a guy who is willing to break the law one way in his auctions being tempted to break it in another way. Like maybe obstructing justice, altering cards, selling fakes, etc. etc. I mean it's not like such a guy was in the news say, a few days ago, doing the same thing. Just impossible to imagine.

[CMIZ5290]

Jeff- I was simply pointing out accusations of Probstein stealing cards. That's laughable. These threads about bid shilling have been going on since King Kong was a squirrel monkey....Where does it get us? What is the resolve?

[calvindog]

Kevin, I'm at a loss in trying to decipher your point here. You might as well say "How does the prosecution and conviction of multiple owners of auction houses get me 8 OC T206 cards?"

Why are drug dealers prosecuted? After all, illegal drugs are still on the street. Why do we prosecute stock market fraudsters? Fraud in the market still exists. What's the resolve?

[Gradedcardman]

+ 1

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Kevin, I'm at a loss in trying to decipher your point here. You might as well say "How does the prosecution and conviction of multiple owners of auction houses get me 8 OC T206 cards?"

Why are drug dealers prosecuted? After all, illegal drugs are still on the street. Why do we prosecute stock market fraudsters? Fraud in the market still exists. What's the resolve?

Blah, blah, blazzy blah.

[Duluth Eskimo]

I am confused how "good customer service", "the process of moving", and the same old threads of "shilling accusations" hide the fact (I am taking the OP at face value as this is a believable story based on prior accusations) that the seller is refusing to return property that he does not own. Furthermore, claims that he doesn't even know where items are and offers to allow the consignor to come and search for it himself? I have not done business with this guy and would not even think about it. If I was moving, maybe a break in sales would be called for. When I am selling items for people, I treat them as priority one as far as safety and security goes. Then again, I am not a big time eBay seller, I am only a caveman lawyer.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Jeff- I was simply pointing out accusations of Probstein stealing cards. That's laughable. These threads about bid shilling have been going on since King Kong was a squirrel monkey....Where does it get us? What is the resolve?

All those threads do help in my opinion, the problem is some people ignore what a piece of work he is and still do business with him anyway. Because as we all know $ is king. The only thing that will be laughable is when Rick screws over the people that stick up for him, then I will laugh.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Gradedcardman

+ 1

I should have known you would agree being the biggest ass kisser on the board as you are...

[CMIZ5290]

I am sure Rick is terrified of all these latest accusations, and his business will suffer tremendously....

[wazoo]

delete

[Rollingstone206]

...

[AddieJoss]

Update and clarification:

Clarification portion: Over the last 7+ weeks! before posting on here! I did call Rick twice and sent several messages and I was being dismissed. I realized I was not getting my cards back unless I went there (I didn't want to and found the suggestion lunacy). I did provide some of the auction numbers (and he didn't seem to have an internal system), but that doesn't help because it does not seem like they are in that type of order and became commingled with other cards. For the record, I never felt Rick was "stealing the cards", he just didn't know which were mine anymore and didn't try to figure it out. I/he assumed he would eventually make good, but that was too long for my liking, especially without replies to the most recent emails.

Update:
After posting, a fellow board member reached out to Rick to inform him that until this was resolved he would not bid on more of Rick's auctions. I thank this board member for this because this motivated Rick to resolve this. The resolution was: he sent me the 1963 cards that were mine, the 1967 cards that were mine and some extra 1967 cards that initially weren't mine, in lieu of the other years cards that were mine which he didn't/couldn't find.


Conclusion: I am content that I get back close to what was mine (maybe better, maybe worse (I'm selling anyway)). I am glad another board member assisted. I don't feel Rick is stealing cards, but has a large room for improvement with customer service and organization. This is simply my tale, others have better and worse.

[Duluth Eskimo]

I am glad you got your cards back and kudos to the person who reached out for you. The troubling thing I still don't understand is why you would reach out to the board to alert others to your problem then defend him in the end. To me, it sounds like without the help of a big brother nothing would have happened and your cards would have been gone (or not stolen as you say). Bottom line I guess is I am glad you have your cards back.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by AddieJoss

The resolution was: he sent me the 1963 cards that were mine, the 1967 cards that were mine and some extra 1967 cards that initially weren't mine, in lieu of the other years cards that were mine which he didn't/couldn't find.

Doesn't it make you wonder where he got the "extra" 1967 cards though? Did he rob Peter to pay Paul?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I should have known you would agree being the biggest ass kisser on the board as you are...

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I am sure Rick is terrified of all these latest accusations, and his business will suffer tremendously....

It's rare to find someone so proud of their stupidity.

Ask any of the dozens or more auction house owners or employees who have been indicted, convicted or investigated by the feds if they aren't shitting their pants during the process. Even during the investigation. If I were Probstein I would cringe every time you posted something as moronic as that.

And why is Adam an ass kisser? Because he responded to a logical conclusion instead of an incoherent, non-sequitur which appears to be some kind of ham-handed attempt to cover for a fraudster?

I remember a time not that long ago that these same sort of idiotic defenses were made for Mastro and Allen; some were nefarious in motive, others just plain dopey. And since then, they've been investigated, indicted, convicted, on their way to jail. And all levels of fraudsters since 2006 have had similar experiences; many with frauds a fraction of the size that Bill and Doug committed. The one thing that remains constant: some ignorant dummy laughing about it, saying it's not a big deal, nothing can be proven, the Daily News has a vendetta and is forcing prosecutors to make public statements about the poor auction house owners. Never their fault. Blahzy blahzy blah.

[Gradedcardman]

Keep the sparring between us if you like.

To the board members I am sorry for stooping to his level.

[AddieJoss]

Jason, I appreciate the reply. I don't think I am "defending" him. The board absolutely helped me get closure. I just feel it was not "criminal" and more "mess-up" combined with poor customer service. I'm just being fair in my assessment. And at the end of the day I did get approx value back and most were my original cards (although with frustration and aggravation).

[1880nonsports]

used in a sentence before. Well done.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Doesn't it make you wonder where he got the "extra" 1967 cards though? Did he rob Peter to pay Paul?

Let's go hunt some witches.

[Runscott]

...how many ostriches does it take to find a witch?