My thoughts on these stupid grading posts

[Kenny Cole]

OK. Here's my rant. This post will likely get me flamed, but I just don't care. I thought this forum was about CARDS. However, in order to read about cards, I now get to wade through volumes of crap about how so and so was slighted in the grading arena. Post after post.

I don't care. If you decided to submit a card for grading and it didn't get what you wanted, talk to the graders. If you were stupid enough to re-submit multiple cards to a different grader in hopes of a better grade and suffered disappointment, that's on you. Would you be bitching if you got your card bumped up? Don't think so. Don't waste my time talking about how bad the decision you made turned out to be because I don't care.

I have submitted cards to be graded. I have often not agreed with the grade I received. I don't think I have ever once come on this board and cried about it, because that is not, and should not, be what this board is about. IMO, if someone has a problem with SGC or PSA, take it up with them. Don't waste everyone elses' time with a thread that spawns 40+ responses with regard to an issue that is always subjective and can therefore never be resolved.

IMO, this board is, or at least should be, about cards, not grades. It is, or should be, about sharing knowledge and helping folkis out. It is, or should be, about celebrating the fact that the folks here are weird enough to cherish little pieces of cardboard that have an intrinsic value to a small segment of the population.

Its great if you submit a card and it gets an 8, but I could care less if you thought it should get an 8 and it only got a 6. Let's talk about cards, not grades. That's my thought.

[nolemmings]

I'm getting a vibe here. Stop making us read tea leaves, and tell us what you really feel.

[Ease]

+1

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I don't give a rat f***...

My thoughts (almost) exactly.
Doug

[Thrill-of-the-Hunt]

you can't argue with 40+ responses to grading card posts, this is a major part of the hobby. the title in the post stated what the topic was, so you dont have to read it if this subject aggravated you so much.

[Wite3]

What if the title of the post just aggravates me...

Joshua

[Browncow75]

Going back to the "whats hurting the vintage hobby" subject, its posts like those where the focus is put purely on the grade a 3rd party gave it, and not the actual card itself, which is the real thing we should worry about. If you are that upset with a TPG, why not crack out all your cards and just enjoy them as they are? Bitching about it sure isnt going to change the grade! We all know the risks we take when we send them in!

[Kenny Cole]

Yeah, I really can argue with 40+ posts about grading. Perhaps I was unclear to you, but that isn't what I think this forum should be about. I sort of thougt that was clear, but if you remain uncertain about what I think, just let me know. If you can't figure it out, I will do my best to enlighten you. :-)

[FUBAR]

while i do agree with you about the grading posts, you have every right to vent, but show a little restraint and save the f-bombs for someplace else.

[ErikV]

Thought I was alone on this, but Kenny and Brandon hit the nail on the head. Glad I'm not the only one who thought this way!!!

ErikV

[Kawika]

[FUBAR]

now that was funny

[teetwoohsix]

Exergonic

[barrysloate]

Kenny- In one of the threads about PSA I started what I hoped was a lively conversation about how the whole system of grading could be improved. Did you feel that was a waste of time, or a fair discussion? You can answer either way, I won't be offended.

[kkkkandp]

Since my main focus is on Old Judge cards (where getting a grade above GOOD is a monumental accomplishment 90% of the time), my reply may not translate as well to other issues, but I think it is generally true.

I said this just the other day to someone - because there does tend to be so much criticism of the service they provide, the card grading industry should consider remarketing itself. Perhaps they should establish a set of realistic and practical universal standards, but I'll say later why even that won't help.

First and foremost, these things we collect are picture cards. To not take the picture quality into consideration in the grade is ludicrous. We have all seen Old Judge cards where the image looks as if it was taken in a London fog, but the card has graded EXCELLENT. Sorry, that's just wrong.

The back is pristinely clean. So what? It's blank. Other issues do have writing on the reverse, some more important (statistics, in my opinion) than others. Back and variation collectors will likely disagree, but I buy the card pretty much for the picture alone.

But cards are graded on technicalities. Expanding the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" concept to that grading work is exactly why card grading will continue to be received with derision. Even with universal standards, will every grader see the same corner rounding or the same dirt smudges in the same way?

I would be very satisfied with a service that marketed itself simply as:

(1) Being able to tell with 100% certainty that the card had not been altered in any way;
(2) Providing a holder that enhanced the presentation and protected the card.

After that, I'll decide how perfectly beautiful it is.

[barrysloate]

I'm with you all the way Kevin, but I doubt it will ever change.

[thekingofclout]

Originally Posted by kkkkandp

Since my main focus is on Old Judge cards (where getting a grade above GOOD is a monumental accomplishment 90% of the time), my reply may not translate as well to other issues, but I think it is generally true.

I said this just the other day to someone - because there does tend to be so much criticism of the service they provide, the card grading industry should consider remarketing itself. Perhaps they should establish a set of realistic and practical universal standards, but I'll say later why even that won't help.

First and foremost, these things we collect are picture cards. To not take the picture quality into consideration in the grade is ludicrous. We have all seen Old Judge cards where the image looks as if it was taken in a London fog, but the card has graded EXCELLENT. Sorry, that's just wrong.

The back is pristinely clean. So what? It's blank. Other issues do have writing on the reverse, some more important (statistics, in my opinion) than others. Back and variation collectors will likely disagree, but I buy the card pretty much for the picture alone.

But cards are graded on technicalities. Expanding the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" concept to that grading work is exactly why card grading will continue to be received with derision. Even with universal standards, will every grader see the same corner rounding or the same dirt smudges in the same way?

I would be very satisfied with a service that marketed itself simply as:

(1) Being able to tell with 100% certainty that the card had not been altered in any way;
(2) Providing a holder that enhanced the presentation and protected the card.

After that, I'll decide how perfectly beautiful it is.

This is easily one of the best post I have ever read, on this, or any board. Bravo Kevin, bravo.

[RichR]

Totally agree.

[T206Collector]

This post is ironically already spawning another dialogue about the importance of grading to the hobby, which I'm pretty sure was not the intent of the original poster.

Moreover, the sentiment exprssed in this post was already expressed by a number of folks in the recent grading threads. Not sure why it deserved its own thread.

Finally, keep in mind that this is a board about shared experiences in the hobby, of which grading is a meaningful part. If you excluded it from the discussion, you'd winnow down some amount of productive and useful conversation.

Now back to your rodent sex.

[HRBAKER]

I can certainly see from the title of the posts in question how someone could not have known they were about grading and ended up wasting their time (sarcasm).

The board is not the same thing to every poster or reader nor should it be.

I don't give a rat's a** about grading one way or the other but if people think there is merit in discussing it, so be it.

[jmk59]

Grading is a significant part of the hobby, and threads that productively discuss the idiosyncrasies and possible improvements are relevant to the hobby and the board. But we all know grading is partially subjective. We all know it's imperfect. So I definitely agree 100% with the OP that we really shouldn't have to hear about every individual person's negative experience with these known issues as if it's the biggest surprise and injustice ever.

And somewhere, Joe P may have rose himself up long enough to applaud this thread!

J

[forazzurri2axz]

First of all, if you don't like the topic of card grading, and one's disappointment with certain results, then you sure as heck spent an awful lot of time reading about it since between the 2 threads, there were almost 300 replies..As someone pointed out, if it pisses you off so much, DON'T READ THEM!!!!

Secondly, not everyone agrees with your definition of what this board is or should be about. Grading is a MAJOR part of the hobby and obviously elicits a lot of different opinions within our baseball card community. If Leon chose to limit the topics to only those that YOU felt were relevant, there would probably be a lot less participants (and lurkers)

If Leon (allow me the liberty please Leon!!) posted a thread and mentioned that 30 of his fairly valuable PSA 2's had been submitted to SGC as a crossover with a request to just meet the SAME grade of SGC30/2, and 15 were crossed--the BEST and "STRONGEST" 2's, and then Leon re-submitted these back to PSA asking for the same PSA 2 grade , and PSA rejects half of their own originally graded PSA 2's including now declaring one trimmed, I doubt you would have even posted, rat f___ or no rat f___.

This had nothing to do with a card getting an 8 or a 6--It had to do with PSA rejecting the BEST of a group they had just graded themselves when asked for the SAME grade they had declared themselves.

cheers to all

bill

[Rich Klein]

Or Frank:

Hey, there are many positives to grading -- having said that, as we saw, when you lose several thousand dollars (although it was your own mistake) many people need to vent a bit. That's what occured.

And as for Kevin, who wants to know that his cards are authentic without a grade, it is real simple, just request the "A" for every card you submit and don't ask for a number grade.

Regards
Rich

[Orioles1954]

Clean up your language. Believe it or not, we do have kids on this board. And even if we didn't, your wanton use of profanity makes your point that much less valid.

[FrankWakefield]

Amen to curtailing the profanity. The Ichiro link should be removed, funny to me though it is; and the other posts edited to be cleaned up a bit.

"These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. "

That's what it says up there... devoted to cards, not slabs. I thought the slab companies had boards for the slab stuff. So I agree with the idea of fewer posts about registries, cross-overs, and particular grading issues. I can see how once in a while a thread about such would be justified. For me, I'd rather see Leon's quarter than see another post about graded cards. I've had some cards graded so they'd sell better, when I'm selling I'm after money... I've cracked out most of the graded cards I've bought, I hate the slabs, they take up lots of storage space. I have a few graded cards I've not cracked out, my favorite is one I've left because the card is mis-identified. Not that that is a rarity among graded cards, but I just like seeing how SGC got it wrong and any collector with part of a brain can see that they did. Joe P is smiling

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Clean up your language. Believe it or not, we do have kids on this board. And even if we didn't, your wanton use of profanity makes your point that much less valid.

I have to walk my little girl out to the bus in about one minute, and then go to a meeting, but will post more on this subject later this morning. I can't allow F-bombs and have edited those out. WE do have children that get on the board. I left the one youtube video as you can barely understand what the gentleman said but I was a hair away from deleting it too, and still might. Be careful with the language please.....more later....regards

[Kenny Cole]

Barry,

I am very conflicted about grading. My core being loathes it and I detest what it has done to the hobby. The myriad of recent posts about how people have been screwed on grades that they evidently thought they were entitled to exemplifies, at least in part, why. That being said, I have finally given in and now use it on some of my cards. I suppose what I should now do is go into a dissertation about every single perceived injustice that I have received at the hands of the people to whom I paid money to impartially grade my cards. Based on some of the responses to this thread, it seems as if that's what this board is now about.

I acknowledge that grading in some form or fashion is here to stay. I don't like it, but that's a fact. Do I think that it can be improved? Certainly, perhaps along the lines that Joann alluded to earlier. However, we aren't there yet. Instead, what we have had recently is thread after thread about how submitter X had some really great cards with really great grades, gambled on getting even better grades, lost the bet, and now wants to blame the grader.

Spare me. If you go to Vegas and put your money on black, you really don't have much room to bitch if the ball lands on red. When you send your cards in to be graded in hopes of making money, you are simply playing a different form of roulette. If you win, great. If you lose, don't whine. I don't care either way. They will be the same piece of cardboard after being graded that they were before, regardless of the number given.

[barrysloate]

Thanks Kenny for your response. I'm pretty much in your school. I do believe there are good things that have come out of TPG, but also many things I don't like. Nothing bothers me more than those silly and somewhat meaningless numbers, but I respect that many other collectors will disagree with me. I also feel that we have too many posts about bad personal experiences with submissions. Bill has every right to be mad about his experience, likewise Dan. But everyone who resubmits does so at great risk and that should be perfectly clear going in. So I don't know how many more threads we really need on this topic. Yes, I would be angry if it happened to me, but I wouldn't feel compelled to post it here.

[kkkkandp]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

And as for Kevin, who wants to know that his cards are authentic without a grade, it is real simple, just request the "A" for every card you submit and don't ask for a number grade.

Rich:

I'm not sure even that works correctly 100% of the time.

I never cared enough about grading to delve into the specific reasons why cards get the grade they do. I think I have read in several posts on the board (although I do not believe the posts were by anyone from one of the grading services) that cards are often graded as AUTHENTIC simply because they do not meet the minimum published dimensional requirements. If that is the case, you could get an AUTHENTIC grade on a card that actually deserved a numeric one because while it was "short" it was short due to a period cut, not a recent one.

Maybe Brian Dwyer could chime in on that.

Kevin

[Jim VB]

I've stayed out of these threads, for the most part, because any discussion we have is not likely to have any impact. But this is from the Net54 FAQ & Rules (Emphasis is mine.):



What Can I Post About?
This forum was established to talk about Pre-WWII Baseball cards. Subjects "related" to Pre-WWII baseball cards can be discussed also. Occasional off topic subjects will be permitted by board participants only. Off topic posts are reserved for every day participants only. The participants involvement in the board determines the leniency in frequency of off topic posts. In other words the more you participate the more leniency you will receive in discussing off-topic material. This is still a Pre-WWII baseball card chat board and we will always try keep it's focus. Early baseball memorabilia and photographs are some of the permitted off topic's. Others are permitted too as long as you are a frequent board participant and they are only occasional.

Things you can not post about

Personal information about people including but not limited to: Phone numbers, addresses, email addresses, etc, unless given permission ...Personal emails should not be posted on the board. Bickering between participants on the board is expected. As long as it doesn't get too bad it will be let go. Too much fighting is not good and will be censored. Personal attacks will not be allowed. Name calling will not be allowed (unless it's real funny ) (Just kidding.) Those exchanges can be taken off line and will be asked to do so. Politics and religion are also not permitted on the board and posts concerning this subject matter will be deleted. Off topic posts are permitted only for regular contributors to the main forum. All cards should be discussed in their appropriate areas on the forum. Memorabilia including photos, autographs, baseball etc.. should go in the memorabilia forum. We also ask that members do not "hijack" the threads of other members as this does a disservice to those interested in that particular subject matter and is especially discourteous to the original author of that thread.

Also, to be absolutely clear, this is not a complaint board about grading, graders or grudges. If your first post on the forum is negative, it will likely be deleted. Trolls are not tolerated and they will be banned.

[Bicem]

If collectors would just treat grades as more of a guide and/or a simple opinion instead of as the word of god, we'd be much better off in my opinion.

I like grading just to ensure authenticity and to have a cool looking, protective holder. I do not like the huge price discrepancies between grades. Also, the exact same card in a 5 holder is worth more than it is in a 4 holder really seems odd to me, it’s the same card!

I think as collectors become more experienced and knowledgeable about cards and the hobby itself, the importance they place on technical grades decreases. At least that's how it was for me.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Clean up your language. Believe it or not, we do have kids on this board. And even if we didn't, your wanton use of profanity makes your point that much less valid.

Originally Posted by Leon

I have to walk my little girl out to the bus in about one minute, and then go to a meeting, but will post more on this subject later this morning. I can't allow F-bombs and have edited those out. WE do have children that get on the board. I left the one youtube video as you can barely understand what the gentleman said but I was a hair away from deleting it too, and still might. Be careful with the language please.....more later....regards

Thank you gentlemen.

[GrayGhost]

Honestly, the grading stuff is a bit much. Simply, you send it in for grading, and thats how it comes out. There's always a risk with anything. I'd say do the research on which company you want, and just go with it. if you are going to crack all those out and have the funds to blow on grading w another company, however it comes out is your luck.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by Bicem

I think as collectors become more experienced and knowledgeable about cards and the hobby itself, the importance they place on technical grades decreases. At least that's how it was for me.

That is how it is becoming for me as well.

[M's_Fan]

+1

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Bicem

The exact same card in a 5 holder is worth more than it is in a 4 holder really seems odd to me, it’s the same card!

While I agree with the sentiment, for me the difference between a 4 and a 5 often means there is a hairline crease in the 4. When I was collecting high(ish) grade T206 cards, I drew my line between 4 and 5 for this reason. So, I stayed away from 4s as a general matter.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

While I agree with the sentiment, for me the difference between a 4 and a 5 often means there is a hairline crease in the 4. When I was collecting high(ish) grade T206 cards, I drew my line between 4 and 5 for this reason. So, I stayed away from 4s as a general matter.

I think you missed the point here. It's the EXACT same card, resubmitted....now worth more, or less, because of a number. I sort of agree that doesn't make sense but also understand why it does command more in value. Personally, the # grading game isn't for me but if others like it who am I to spoil their party? Some people can't understand why I do what I do!!

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think you missed the point here. It's the EXACT same card, resubmitted....now worth more, or less, because of a number. I sort of agree that doesn't make sense but also understand why it does command more in value. Personally, the # grading game isn't for me but if others like it who am I to spoil their party? Some people can't understand why I do what I do!!

With all due respect -- the demand will go up for the same card if you first tell people there is a wrinkle in it and then you later tell people there is no wrinkle in it. That is how I often read SGC 50s and SGC 60s with respect to T206 cards.

[Bicem]

what Leon said.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Bicem

what Leon said.

What I said, again.

[T206Collector]

In addition, let's be clear about something. The creases that make an SGC 60 an SGC 50 do not show up in scans on ebay, where a huge amount of cards change hands. So, when you are purchasing 500 T206 cards on ebay over the course of a few years, and you want to be certain they don't have hidden wrinkles, you had better be buying SGC 60s. If you show me a PSA 4/SGC 50 that got bumped up/crossed over to an SGC 60, I will show you a card I am comfortable does not have any wrinkles in it and may now consider purchasing for more money than the PSA 4/SGC 50 was going to cost me, when I wasn't interested in it.

Same card, true, but some different assumptions now go into it with the higher SGC grade.

Here's a perfectly good example. I own this card. If I saw this on ebay, the only way I would know there is a wrinkle in it would be if the dealer told me in the listing (fat chance) or I understood how SGC graded its 50s. This card would be a 60 if it weren't for the "unscannable" wrinkle. If you popped this out and resubmitted it, the only way it gets to be an SGC 60 would be if this wrinkle didn't exist. In other words, the SGC 50 would have been an undergrade and the SGC 60 would be the appropriate grade -- and there would be a higher demand for it as a result.

I bought the Moeller below "in the raw" on ebay in 2000. The seller's listing promised the card had no creases, but it did. The next buyer of this card will now be full aware of its hidden defect -- a spider wrinkle on the left border -- because I had it graded by SGC and they gave it a 50 and not a 60.

From SGC Graded Cards

[Rob D.]

"If you popped this out and resubmitted it, the only way it gets to be an SGC 60 would be if this wrinkle didn't exist."

No, and you're making a big assumption here. It also could get to be an SGC 60 if the person grading that day missed the wrinkle. Which does happen, at all grading companies, and is also what causes a lot of frustration among collectors.

[Bicem]

like I said... people treating the grader's quick opinion as the word of God.

[Leon]

Now that I can type for a few minutes let me address this topic from a moderator/owner perspective. First of all if ANYONE else ran the board I am sure it would be different in some manner. Everyone has their own ideas on how it should go. Here are some of my thoughts.

Kenny Cole (hey Kenny), the original poster, is a good hobby friend and one of my most-liked lawyers on the board. I see about 99% the same way he does on most things. That being said I slightly disagree on the sentiment concerning this thread. Are there possibly too many of these types of threads? Maybe, maybe not. For better or worse there are few bigger topics in the hobby than grading. For that reason the number of threads pertaining to it is substantial.

My philosophy is, and has been from day 1, is to have as hands off of an approach as I can with regards to moderation. Now, I understand this is a private type chatboard and there really is no "freedom of speech" but I still like to think there is, and manage it that way. I do NOT believe it is my right to tell people what to post about, as long as it pertains to something in our hobby. I don't tell people what to say in their posts either. I feel people should be left to hang themselves if they so desire. In my opinion the worst thing I could do is be too strict in the moderating category. Do I like card related threads and talking about our cards and the hobby, more than anything on the board? Sure I do. But to expect it to be soley that way is unrealistic, again, imo. During some calls yesterday it was funny how the other folks knew where I would be on some issues. If nothing else I try to be consistent and I try to help the other mods in keeping that consistency. It is a very, very open forum as long as the rules are kept in mind. I will come down on folks who continually mess up or cause way too much commotion, but those are rare instances. Everyone that has been on the board for very long knows what is allowed and what is not...and there is a LOT of leniency given in most matters, especially to everyday posters. I have 0 tolerance for very much harsh profanity or talking about others' family members. As recently seen no topic is off limits even concerning advertisers. When the banners went up there were a few advertisers that felt they should be protected from criticisms on the board. Before I hung up on their calls they were no longer advertisers. Every banner advertiser now understands that their company, including B and L, is not off limits.

I feel that all of these beliefs ADD to the legitimacy of the board, right or wrong. We are adding around 60-75 new members a month for some reason...and it's not because of my good looks!! I sort of feel like a boxing referee in that I should be seen but not heard. The less moderating I have to do the happier I am and I feel the better the board is. I always appreciate constructive criticism and take it as such. regards

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

"If you popped this out and resubmitted it, the only way it gets to be an SGC 60 would be if this wrinkle didn't exist."

No, and you're making a big assumption here. It also could get to be an SGC 60 if the person grading that day missed the wrinkle. Which does happen, at all grading companies, and is also what causes a lot of frustration among collectors.

While I have seen plenty of frustrating PSA 5s arrive in my mailbox with spider wrinkles, that doesn't happen to me on SGC 60s. Is it possible? Sure. But never happened to me. Moreover, since I tolerate corner wear on my SGC 60s, a lot of PSA 4s will cross to SGC 60 and that is fine by me. I will pay more for them, once SGC has certified they are wrinkle-free.

When I was putting together my SGC T206 set a few years ago, I developed a theory that the only PSA 5s on ebay were the ones that SGC wouldn't cross over to 60s because of the spider wrinkles. Frankly, what do you think all the SGC collectors do when they get their crossover submissions back from SGC with 1/4 or more of the cards failing as a result of minimum grade requirements? They get dumped on ebay.

[barrysloate]

Perhaps Kenny was less concerned with discussions of grading in general, which affects all of us as collectors or dealers, and was aiming his criticism towards those with a personal issue that had nothing to do with anybody else other than themselves. Again, not to take away from the frustration of Bill and Dan, but these were unique situations.

[Robextend]

Leon, I appreciate the fact you have that kind of approach and I agree it is a big part of what makes the board a great place...thank you.

The more I read this thread and similar threads, the more I realize how naive I was when I was upset my T206 common came back as a 30 instead of a 40. The one thing threads like these reinforce with me is that as long as you are happy with the card, who cares what grade it gets...as long as the card is authentic and not altered

But of course that is from a pure collector point of view.

[M's_Fan]

I'd just like to say that many people are taking these grading posts a bit too seriously.

Like it or not, grading has become a part of the hobby. Its sort of like umpiring in baseball. It is subjective, and that actually is in many ways what makes it interesting.

There will always be guys arguing down at the local bar after the game about whether the guy was safe or not, or whether that was a strike or a foul. Should the strike zone be expanded? Is that pitcher's move to first base a balk? Etc. Now I wouldn't barge into this conversation and say, "I don't want to talk about umpiring. I want to talk about baseball!"

This board is like the local watering hole for card geeks, we can hang out here and some like to discuss the umpiring of baseball cards. We are really arguing about the condition of the card, whether we think its VG/EX/NM/M etc, and the overall rules by which cards are judged. Before grading companies gave numeric grades, we had the label system, which many would argue about, and if grading companies all went away, some would still be here having heated conversations about whether a card is VG-EX or EX.

Now I admit my analogy isn't perfect, but my point is just that a card's condition is an aspect of the hobby that some people like to talk about. It isn't a threat to this board or the beginning of the downfall of all society.

[Kenny Cole]

I agree with Barry.

[tedzan]

DITTO....regarding your's and Barry's comments.


TED Z