My thoughts on these stupid grading posts

[Bicem]

If collectors would just treat grades as more of a guide and/or a simple opinion instead of as the word of god, we'd be much better off in my opinion.

I like grading just to ensure authenticity and to have a cool looking, protective holder. I do not like the huge price discrepancies between grades. Also, the exact same card in a 5 holder is worth more than it is in a 4 holder really seems odd to me, it’s the same card!

I think as collectors become more experienced and knowledgeable about cards and the hobby itself, the importance they place on technical grades decreases. At least that's how it was for me.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by Bicem

I think as collectors become more experienced and knowledgeable about cards and the hobby itself, the importance they place on technical grades decreases. At least that's how it was for me.

That is how it is becoming for me as well.

[M's_Fan]

+1

[M's_Fan]

I'd just like to say that many people are taking these grading posts a bit too seriously.

Like it or not, grading has become a part of the hobby. Its sort of like umpiring in baseball. It is subjective, and that actually is in many ways what makes it interesting.

There will always be guys arguing down at the local bar after the game about whether the guy was safe or not, or whether that was a strike or a foul. Should the strike zone be expanded? Is that pitcher's move to first base a balk? Etc. Now I wouldn't barge into this conversation and say, "I don't want to talk about umpiring. I want to talk about baseball!"

This board is like the local watering hole for card geeks, we can hang out here and some like to discuss the umpiring of baseball cards. We are really arguing about the condition of the card, whether we think its VG/EX/NM/M etc, and the overall rules by which cards are judged. Before grading companies gave numeric grades, we had the label system, which many would argue about, and if grading companies all went away, some would still be here having heated conversations about whether a card is VG-EX or EX.

Now I admit my analogy isn't perfect, but my point is just that a card's condition is an aspect of the hobby that some people like to talk about. It isn't a threat to this board or the beginning of the downfall of all society.

[Kenny Cole]

I agree with Barry.

[tedzan]

DITTO....regarding your's and Barry's comments.


TED Z

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Bicem

The exact same card in a 5 holder is worth more than it is in a 4 holder really seems odd to me, it’s the same card!

While I agree with the sentiment, for me the difference between a 4 and a 5 often means there is a hairline crease in the 4. When I was collecting high(ish) grade T206 cards, I drew my line between 4 and 5 for this reason. So, I stayed away from 4s as a general matter.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

While I agree with the sentiment, for me the difference between a 4 and a 5 often means there is a hairline crease in the 4. When I was collecting high(ish) grade T206 cards, I drew my line between 4 and 5 for this reason. So, I stayed away from 4s as a general matter.

I think you missed the point here. It's the EXACT same card, resubmitted....now worth more, or less, because of a number. I sort of agree that doesn't make sense but also understand why it does command more in value. Personally, the # grading game isn't for me but if others like it who am I to spoil their party? Some people can't understand why I do what I do!!

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think you missed the point here. It's the EXACT same card, resubmitted....now worth more, or less, because of a number. I sort of agree that doesn't make sense but also understand why it does command more in value. Personally, the # grading game isn't for me but if others like it who am I to spoil their party? Some people can't understand why I do what I do!!

With all due respect -- the demand will go up for the same card if you first tell people there is a wrinkle in it and then you later tell people there is no wrinkle in it. That is how I often read SGC 50s and SGC 60s with respect to T206 cards.

[Bicem]

what Leon said.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Bicem

what Leon said.

What I said, again.

[T206Collector]

In addition, let's be clear about something. The creases that make an SGC 60 an SGC 50 do not show up in scans on ebay, where a huge amount of cards change hands. So, when you are purchasing 500 T206 cards on ebay over the course of a few years, and you want to be certain they don't have hidden wrinkles, you had better be buying SGC 60s. If you show me a PSA 4/SGC 50 that got bumped up/crossed over to an SGC 60, I will show you a card I am comfortable does not have any wrinkles in it and may now consider purchasing for more money than the PSA 4/SGC 50 was going to cost me, when I wasn't interested in it.

Same card, true, but some different assumptions now go into it with the higher SGC grade.

Here's a perfectly good example. I own this card. If I saw this on ebay, the only way I would know there is a wrinkle in it would be if the dealer told me in the listing (fat chance) or I understood how SGC graded its 50s. This card would be a 60 if it weren't for the "unscannable" wrinkle. If you popped this out and resubmitted it, the only way it gets to be an SGC 60 would be if this wrinkle didn't exist. In other words, the SGC 50 would have been an undergrade and the SGC 60 would be the appropriate grade -- and there would be a higher demand for it as a result.

I bought the Moeller below "in the raw" on ebay in 2000. The seller's listing promised the card had no creases, but it did. The next buyer of this card will now be full aware of its hidden defect -- a spider wrinkle on the left border -- because I had it graded by SGC and they gave it a 50 and not a 60.

From SGC Graded Cards

[Leon]

Now that I can type for a few minutes let me address this topic from a moderator/owner perspective. First of all if ANYONE else ran the board I am sure it would be different in some manner. Everyone has their own ideas on how it should go. Here are some of my thoughts.

Kenny Cole (hey Kenny), the original poster, is a good hobby friend and one of my most-liked lawyers on the board. I see about 99% the same way he does on most things. That being said I slightly disagree on the sentiment concerning this thread. Are there possibly too many of these types of threads? Maybe, maybe not. For better or worse there are few bigger topics in the hobby than grading. For that reason the number of threads pertaining to it is substantial.

My philosophy is, and has been from day 1, is to have as hands off of an approach as I can with regards to moderation. Now, I understand this is a private type chatboard and there really is no "freedom of speech" but I still like to think there is, and manage it that way. I do NOT believe it is my right to tell people what to post about, as long as it pertains to something in our hobby. I don't tell people what to say in their posts either. I feel people should be left to hang themselves if they so desire. In my opinion the worst thing I could do is be too strict in the moderating category. Do I like card related threads and talking about our cards and the hobby, more than anything on the board? Sure I do. But to expect it to be soley that way is unrealistic, again, imo. During some calls yesterday it was funny how the other folks knew where I would be on some issues. If nothing else I try to be consistent and I try to help the other mods in keeping that consistency. It is a very, very open forum as long as the rules are kept in mind. I will come down on folks who continually mess up or cause way too much commotion, but those are rare instances. Everyone that has been on the board for very long knows what is allowed and what is not...and there is a LOT of leniency given in most matters, especially to everyday posters. I have 0 tolerance for very much harsh profanity or talking about others' family members. As recently seen no topic is off limits even concerning advertisers. When the banners went up there were a few advertisers that felt they should be protected from criticisms on the board. Before I hung up on their calls they were no longer advertisers. Every banner advertiser now understands that their company, including B and L, is not off limits.

I feel that all of these beliefs ADD to the legitimacy of the board, right or wrong. We are adding around 60-75 new members a month for some reason...and it's not because of my good looks!! I sort of feel like a boxing referee in that I should be seen but not heard. The less moderating I have to do the happier I am and I feel the better the board is. I always appreciate constructive criticism and take it as such. regards

[barrysloate]

Perhaps Kenny was less concerned with discussions of grading in general, which affects all of us as collectors or dealers, and was aiming his criticism towards those with a personal issue that had nothing to do with anybody else other than themselves. Again, not to take away from the frustration of Bill and Dan, but these were unique situations.

[tedzan]

It is no surprise to many here....if I state how much I hate the Graded card phenomena. In my opinion....from the infamous
Alan Hager days (circa 1990), to the infamous PSA 8 Wagner, to the graded T206 fakes which were "Re-Fronted", to the pre-
sent situation....this Grading phenomena has adversely affected this BB card hobby. How many examples can offer of this ?
I will spare you how many.....as they are too numerous.

Unfortunately, there are many on this forum which have no way of comparing the present with the PPG (pre-professional gra-
ding) days of the 1970's, 1980's and early 1990's. Therefore, they are stuck in the "plastic age" and cannot be truly objective
about negative aspects of this current grading craze. Once you start professionally assigning "numbers" to pieces of cardboard,
that have no inherent $$$$ value, you've opened up a pandora's box of problems, corruption, etc.

But, I must be realistic.....we are all stuck with this Grading crap.....whether we like it or not. And, the only solution we have
was 1st suggested by Barry Sloate in another thread......

'What the numbers really do is keep the graders in business, and keep the resubmissions coming in at a brisk pace. The hobby
would be alive and well without them."

Kevin Cummings 2nd that suggestion in his excellent post (#15) earlier in this thread.


I could say a lot more on this subject, but that will only "tick-off" more Net54er's here. Resulting in no one ever responding to
my future threads here

So, I'll leave you with....to each his own.


TED Z

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by tedzan

But, I must be realistic.....we are all stuck with this Grading crap.....whether we like it or not. And, the only solution we have
was 1st suggested by Barry Sloate in another thread......

TED Z

HELL NO!


If you love your cards, SET THEM FREE!


That's what I do.


And look at Jim Lemon. Just seeing that smile on his face is the only thanks that I need.

[Chris-Counts]

Great post, Kenny. I agree with most of what you say. I've never understood the whole graded card thing. Why should I pay extra for a trimmed card when I can just buy one raw for less money? I must admit, though, I get a guilty pleasure out of busting those darn things open. Curiously, the only card I've ever paid to get graded is a 1940 Play Ball color proof, and even though it's slabbed by SGC, I've had several folks here question its authenticity ...

[tedzan]

I'll spare you my usual lengthy diatribe here.....you, as others on this Net, take any of us anti-grading dudes' comments
too personal. It doesn't bother me that the majority of the folks here love graded cards....more power to them and you.

But, I am entitled to express my feelings regarding this subject (as others have similarly expressed here). And, they are
simply..all the cards I love and have collected from 1887 Old Judges to 1967 Topps were more affordable back in the PPG
era (see my above post #51). And, collecting these aesthetically appealing pieces of cardboard was more fun back in the
1970's, 1980's and early to mid 1990's.

I don't think I'm being totally unobjective when I say that since the Grading phenomena, these factors have significantly
diminished.

TED Z

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I'll spare you my usual lengthy diatribe here.....you, as others on this Net, take any of us anti-grading dudes' comments
too personal. It doesn't bother me that the majority of the folks here love graded cards....more power to them and you.

But, I am entitled to express my feelings regarding this subject (as others have similarly expressed here). And, they are
simply..all the cards I love and have collected from 1887 Old Judges to 1967 Topps were more affordable back in the PPG
era (see my above post #51). And, collecting these aesthetically appealing pieces of cardboard was more fun back in the
1970's, 1980's and early to mid 1990's.

I don't think I'm being totally unobjective when I say that since the Grading phenomena, these factors have significantly
diminished.

TED Z

Ted,

I assure you, I do not take anti-grading comments personally. If third-party grading disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn't bother me a bit. Conversely, if it sticks around in its current form for 30 years, it won't bother me a bit. I've never bought a card that's in a slab solely because of how high the number is on the flip.

What I'm saying is when you and others who don't like third-party grading can't concede that the process hasn't done at least some good in the hobby, I think your overall argument loses merit.

You and others often choose to display your anti-grading sentiments as some kind of badge of honor, and that's your right. But you should at least be aware that collectors who prefer ungraded cards take more shots at those who don't share their views than the other way around. How does that help the hobby?

[Cat]

I generally skip over any of the grading threads (but I tend to skip over any thread about T206/T205s too). I think part of the problem is the grading threads get so many replies, and thus bumped to the top, that folks feel compelled to go back and find out what train-wreck they missed. I like my cards graded but I really don't care what the grade is. If I have to have a magnifying glass to identify that there is a wrinkle then I really don't care about that wrinkle. I think folks get way to technical with this stuff.

[Rob D.]

Ted,

It's easy to attempt to discredit someone or something by picking and choosing and listing only the negative. You're one of the more valued contributors to this board. You've also posted some comically ridiculous statements -- as have I and probably every other member of this board (except one). Were someone to list only your not-so-great posts in an attempt to discredit you on the whole, it would be pretty easy. Folks who are dead-set against professional grading are adept at listing all of the negatives and none of the positives.

A lot of us were active in the hobby before professional grading came on the scene. It wasn't all candy and nuts. Dealers repeatedly overgraded their cards and undergraded yours. There was fraud then -- specifically card doctoring and trimming -- just like there is now. Do I wish, like I'm sure you do, that there was a "less professional" feel to the hobby now like there was in the 1970s? Absolutely. But I also know that professional grading has done some good, and to try to turn a blind eye toward that fact doesn't help your cause.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The cards I love and have collected from 1887 Old Judges to 1967 Topps were more affordable back in the PPG
era.

Demand has gone up because 3PG + the Internet have made it easier and more comfortable for a lot of people to collect.

[tedzan]

I can have a discussion with Rob D on this subject.

But, I'll tell you this....your freakin attitude is what turns off a lot of us anti-graded guys. As, it is typical of a few here
that look down at collector's who talk about, or display ungraded cards on this forum (regardless of how nice or rare the
cards may be).

Here is a guy, folks, that when we once made a T206 trade deal, he demanded that I send him a check for the cost of
grading the cards I sent him.


Regarding this comment of yours........
"Demand has gone up because 3PG + the Internet have made it easier and more comfortable for a lot of people to collect."

You are so freakin wrong....it's laughable. This hobby, during the 1980's and into the 1990's, was at its zenith. Demand for
cards (of all stripes), relative to the activity in those years, has definitely diminished in the past 10 years. Ask anyone here
that recalls any of the Willow Grove Shows ?


TED Z

[barrysloate]

Ted- to the contrary, I think a fair number of people on this board do not like third party grading. Is it time for yet another poll? Maybe I'll rustle one up.

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by tedzan

But, I'll tell you this....your freakin attitude is what turns off a lot of us anti-graded guys. As, it is typical of a few
here that look down at collector's who talk about, or display ungraded cards on this forum (regardless of how nice
or rare those cards may be).
TED Z

This can just as easily be rewritten to :

But, I'll tell you this....your freakin attitude is what turns off a lot of us graded guys. As, it is typical of a few
here that look down at collector's who talk about, or display graded cards on this forum (regardless of how nice
or rare those cards may be).

Sorry that some of us intruded on your hobby and find that 3rd party grading and the internet assist us in our collecting efforts.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by tedzan

your freakin attitude is what turns off a lot of us anti-graded guys. As, it is typical of a few here
that look down at collector's who talk about, or display ungraded cards on this forum (regardless of how nice or rare the
cards may be).

I have no attitude, man. Calm it down.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Here is a guy, folks, that when we once made a T206 trade deal, he demanded that I send him a check for the cost of
grading the cards I sent him.

I've never dealt cards with you in my life or, in any event, demand that someone send me a check for the cost of grading cards.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Regarding this comment of yours........
"Demand has gone up because 3PG + the Internet have made it easier and more comfortable for a lot of people to collect."
You are so freakin wrong....it's laughable. This hobby, during the 1980's and into the 1990's, was at its zenith. Demand for
cards (of all stripes), relative to the activity in those years, has definitely diminished in the past 10 years. Ask anyone here
that recalls any of the Willow Grove Shows ?

Prices of cards have gone way up. The reason for that is because demand has gone way up. Simple math, man.

I am trying to be respectful because you obviously have a lot of knowledge to share, but you continue to turn off a lot of posters with your insensitive and rude remarks.

[bcornell]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

A lot of us were active in the hobby before professional grading came on the scene. It wasn't all candy and nuts. Dealers repeatedly overgraded their cards and undergraded yours. There was fraud then -- specifically card doctoring and trimming -- just like there is now.

This gets a huge amen from me. There were no "good old days" in collecting, at least not by the late 1970's, when I started. Dealers were, by and large, not to be trusted. The hobby hasn't devolved due to grading and the Internet, it's gotten much, much better.


Bill

[calvindog]

Bill -- great avatar.