Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales [Archive] - Page 2

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02-15-2008, 01:49 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosI spy with my little eye... ...an eleven year old 1099 - might be for thousands of dollars in non-salary teaching fees in forensic document examination, might be for picking up litter; ...an undated GWU "Faculty" card. No course nor department noted. Neither document addresses Mr. Morales' qualifications to authenticate autographs or signed documents. Neither document shows what education he may have received in that field. On Mr. Morales' website he states: "I received the majority of my forensic science training in the U.S. Secret Service's Forensic Services Division's Questioned Document Section. I worked in all areas of handwriting [sic] and counterfeiting [sic]". also: "My Forensic Science graduate studies included concentration in questioned documents" These are the only qualifications on his sight that I personally believe directly pertain to an ability to distinguish forgeries. So, Mr. Morales, instead of posting images of old 1099's and ID cards, why not simply publish concrete evidence substantiating your educational credentials? Did the Secret Service have a curriculum for "Questioned Documents"? What was it? How many hours? What did you study? What "areas of handwriting"? Did you receive a certificate following course completion? What does "concentration in questioned documents" mean? It appears that GWU offers only one course in "Questioned Documents" analysis. Did you take extra courses elsewhere as part of your master's degree? Did GWU offer courses that we aren't aware of? What was in those courses? Please elaborate. All that is being asked here, simply put, and to corruptly paraphrase the late Sen. Howard Baker, is: "What did you learn, and when did you learn it?" This is not difficult. PS to all: Don't forget the roses today!

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02-15-2008, 02:36 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaWho cares what credentials Morales has the obvious question is why don't his items get the same kind of prices as those sold in other auction venues?

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02-15-2008, 02:57 PM

Posted By: BobThis thread is absolutely fascinating and I honestly think that while Mr. Jaffe has had issues in the past, he has redeemed himself with the HBO special and now this. A few general comments as I skim by most of this in hopes of catching up later. First off, if you really want to compare prices, simply go to the prices realized section of the last CCSA auction to see some rather outstanding prices from the previous month. Next, there are a lot of great autograph dealers that simply shun the idea of giving an opinion. I think in politics, it's called Nimby-ism's, or Not In My Back Yard-isms. Let the other worry about it. Autograph fraud effects us all. I would like to see people more vocal as part of the success of the pre-war market comes because autograph fraud has really tuned people off and people have discovered a brand new love in vintage cards. I know four prominent collectors who quit buying autographs. Autograph sellers, it seriously effects us all. Sellers, take a stand. Shelly, I think you have to interview Sports Collector's Digest. Call up Jeff Pozorski or T.S O'Connell. I think some serious questions have to be directed their way, especially since it doesn't look like STAT or Morales are coming in anytime soon. Keep digging though. Post the interview here on the Forum. Keep up the good work! Bob

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02-15-2008, 03:38 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeI have tried many times. Rocky tried for me at least a dozen times and they refused. Their income depends on CC. Look who does there auction review,none other than Ted Taylor. The same Ted Taylor who authenticates for CC and tells you how great they are. If this is not a conflict of interest what is?

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02-15-2008, 03:46 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeDan, in answer to your question,its painfully obvious.Both STAT and Morales are totally incompetent. The only people that trust them are the people that are blind. PS. Still waiting for Morales and STAT to reply.

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02-15-2008, 03:56 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaShelly, I know the answer to my question but I want Morales to come in here and answer it. Why isn't he buying up EVERYTHING in the CC auctions and consigning the stuff to Mastro? He'd be a dadgummed millionaire!!!!! <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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02-15-2008, 04:05 PM

Posted By: ....

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02-15-2008, 04:12 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonFrom the last CC auction. Damn I missed some bargains, I gotta stay on top of this stuff. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Jack Chesbro single-signed "Stat Authentic" baseball. 2095 Cap Anson Autographed Stat Authentic Certified Baseball. 3356 Dan Brouthers single-signed "Stat Authentic" baseball. 2084 Ty Cobb Autographed Stat Authentic Certified Baseball Bat! 1000 Christy Mathewson hand signed "Stat Authentic" hardback book. 1448 "Beatles" hand signed/custom framed & "Stat" certified record album. 763 Walter Johnson Senators single-signed "Morales" baseball. 866 JFK hand signed "Stat Authentic" photograph. 876 Ronald Reagan hand signed 1940's Hollywood photo. 58 Homerun" Baker A's single-signed "Morales" baseball. 1155 Mel Ott Autographed Forensically CERTIFIED Vintage Baseball Jersey. 239 Tris Speaker single-signed "Morales" baseball. 1647 These prices are 10-30% of the market. They do sell. Unfortunately that still proves that PT Barnum was right. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-15-2008, 04:22 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeFor all you card dealers. Where can you always find a mint 10 pro graded card? Who ever is first in answering this question, I will pay pal them $5.

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02-15-2008, 04:26 PM

Posted By: Mark SteinbergThis is indeed a fascinating (and very necessary) thread, but so much of it is overkill. Morales could possess the best credentials in the world, and it would not matter. It doesn't even matter whether his GWU ID Card and 1099 Form are real or fake... All that matters is that the junk passing Morales' authentication (and featured in Coach's Corner Auctions) is bogus. Why are there never any early Team-signed balls featured? Where are the 1920s Yankee team balls and the 1930s Cubs Balls? Too many different names to attempt? Why is it that only single-signed pieces and otherwise unattainable names like Chesbro, Brouthers and Anson are featured? Which type is easier to forge- a team ball or a single-signed ball or cut? It amazes me how their incredible "consignor" base continually produces only amazing single-signed pieces. Obviously, if Morales could consign to Mastro (as Dan is suggesting), he would make millions. But we all know that no reputable dealer would accept any of this garbage on consignment. The obvious fakes (and corresponding conflicts of interest with SCD) provide more than circumstantial evidence of fraudulent/criminal activity.

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02-15-2008, 04:46 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeThis is what a COA from STAT really means . Verification - STAT Authentic, an LLC registered in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, renders a service in expressing our opinion and knowledge, however, STAT Authentic LLC and its partners/employees does not guarantee the accuracy of our opinion expressed regarding any items submitted for authentication. We assume no liability whatsoever for any loss or damage allegedly sustained as a result of any opinion rendered. STAT Authentic LLC is in no way liable for personal loss due to damage alteration or any other reason once this item leaves our possession. Our seal, signatures, registration number and processing date must appear on this certificate for it to be valid. This really makes you comfortable.Does anyone out there have a Morales cert.

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02-15-2008, 05:13 PM

Posted By: leonThat "cert" looks more like a disclaimer to me....

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02-15-2008, 05:55 PM

Posted By: Josh SiegelIt is so obvious that SCD and CC/Stat are doing a lot of business together. SCD's website now has a blog area. Would it be rude to ask these same questions on SCD's website. Maybe an editor can respond to some of the questions. Maybe a boycot against auction houses who advertise in SCD a certain month. A month like May that is typically a busy auction month. I know this very important topic was started in a card area, but the bad taste affects the hobby as a whole, not just the autographs. Can we have a party to burn all of the fake autographs at the National! Or maybe Souderton, PA??? Or we can donate them to Mongolia( or whatever country the formentioned is in) -Josh

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02-15-2008, 07:08 PM

Posted By: Richard SimonShelly asked me to post this Morales COA. Any comments on how convincing this is ? <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203704669.JPG"> -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-15-2008, 07:34 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeLeon, you are correct,that is what appears on there cert. In regards to the Morales cert. I would be very interested in where Morales gets his exemplars. I would also like to know where he gets exemplars for over one thousand different people. The same question goes out to STAT. Here is there statement of fact. Along with their associates they bring over 100 years of combined hobby experience to the marketplace - working with the Baseball Hall of Fame, sports museums, hobby retailers, card manufacturers, as Promoters of major hobby shows and events, creators of cards and memorabilia and hosts of autograph events - not to mention being avid collectors ourselves.Who are there associates. How can they authenticate George Washington and not be able to authenticate Ted Williams,Joe Dimaggio and Mickey Mantle(HBO Special) which is there specialty. When you see that this site was edited it is because I really don't do well with spelling. I am, as some of you know dyslexic. I then get four or five emails telling me what to correct. The only problem is I screw up again and again.

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02-15-2008, 07:52 PM

Posted By: PscolgrafsI collect CCSA/STAT/CM/GARO/AAU/FDS and co. scans, as well as passed crap by the big guys as well. It's impossible to compare prices since I have roughly 3000+ CCSA scans collected over the last three years, as well as their print auctions and prices realized lists. A few days after the auction ends, I grab screen grabs and note what everything sold for. The info was obtained directly from the CCSA web site. Below is a short list of items sold in 2007 with Morales and STAT letters through Coach's. Are these fair prices? (Jan 2007) # 1 1927 Yankees Team Signed Baseball $6601 (Morales) (Jan 2007) # 7 Cap Anson Autographed Single Baseball $861 (Morales) (Jan 2007) # 8 Josh Gibson Autographed Single Baseball $1158 (Morales) (Jan 2007) # 12 Babe Ruth Autographed Baseball Bat $4953 (STAT) (Jan 2007) # 30 Jack Chesbro Autographed Cut Signature $242 (STAT) (Jan 2007) # 39 Home Run Baker Autographed Baseball Bat $242 (STAT) (Jan 2007) #287 Mel Ott Autographed Single Baseball $410 (Morales) (Jan 2007) $293 John McGraw Autographed Single Baseball $416 (Morales) (Jan 2007) #679 Sitting Bull Autographed Cut Signature $210 (STAT) )Jan 2007) #685 Mel Ott Autographed Hand Written Letter $191 (STAT) (Jan 2007) #753 Rude Waddell Autographed Cut Signature $93 (STAT) (Jan 2007) #774 Ed Delahanty Autographed Cut Signature $516 (STAT) (Feb 2007) #119 Ty Cobb Autographed Baseball Bat $486 (STAT) (Feb 2007) #433 Ty Cobb Single Signed Baseball $437 (STAT) (Feb 2007) #435 Walter Johnson Single Signed Basebll $589 (STAT) (Feb 2007) #444 Jim Thorpe Autographed Single Baseball $200 (STAT) (Feb 2007) #445 Jimmie Foxx Autographed Single Baseball $276 (STAT) (Feb 2007) #451 Christy Mathewson Autographed Single Ball $176 (STAT) (Feb 2007) #452 Chuck Klein Autographed Single Baseball $247 (Morales) (Feb 2007) $512 Chuck Klein Autographed Gum Card $150 (STAT) (Mar 2007) # 1 1934 Tour Of Japan Signed Baseball $2445 (STAT) (Mar 2007) # 3 Ott, Wagner, Duffy, Cobb, Foxx Signed Ball $2329 (Morales) (Mar 2007) # 17 Ed Plank Autographed Single Baseball $702 (Morales) (Mar 2007) # 19 Mel Ott Autographed Single Baseball $682 (STAT) (Mar 2007) # 39 Lou Gehrig and Babe Ruth Autographed Bat $6340 (Morales) (Mar 2007) #137 Lou Gehrig Autographed Baseball Bat $482 (Morales) (Mar 2007) #142 Home Run Baker Autographed Baseball Bat $376 (STAT) (Mar 2007) #201 1929 HOF Induction Signed Ball $340 (STAT) (Mar 2007) #228 Lou Gehrig Autographed Miniature Baseball $378 (Morales) (Mar 2007) #505 Josh Gibson Autographed Cut Signature $711 (STAT) (Apr 2007) # 5 Pride of Yankees Signed Ball w/ Ruth $341 (STAT) (Apr 2007) # 7 Mel Ott Single Signed Baseball $500 (Morales) (Apr 2007) # 24 Honus Wagner Autographed Baseball Bat $492 (STAT) (Apr 2007) # 25 Lou Gehrig Autographed Baseball Jersey $2150 (Morales) (Apr 2007) # 28 Cap Anson Autographed Cut Signature $368 (STAT) (Apr 2007) # 29 Cap Anson Signed Miniature Ball $551 (STAT) (Apr 2007) # 38 Joe Kelley Autographed Soft Ball $315 (STAT) (Apr 2007) # 56 Honus Wagner Autographed Baseball Glove $400 (STAT) (Apr 2007) #264 Walter Johnson Autographed Signed Baseball $634 (STAT) (May 2007) # 6 Lou Gehrig Autographed Baseball Jersey $1343 (Morales) (May 2007) # 14 Babe Ruth Autographed Baseball Bat $1489 (Morales) (May 2007) # 41 Christy Mathewson Hand-Written Letter $866 (STAT) (May 2007) #191 Nellie Fox Signed Baseball Bat $112 (STAT) (May 2007) #242 Joe Tinker Autographed Single Baseball $468 (Morales) (May 2007) #311 Bobby Jones Autographed Baseball $236 (STAT) (June 2007) # 7 Mel Ott Autographed Single Baseball $420 (STAT) (June 2007) # 47 Jimmie Foxx Autographed Mini-Bat $255 (STAT) (June 2007) # 48 Walter Johnson Autographed Soft Ball $348 (STAT) (June 2007) # 57 Josh Gibson Autographed Pants $159 (Morales) (June 2007) # 63 Cap Anson Autographed Cut Signature $318 (STAT) (June 2007) # 60 Ty Cobb Autographed Single Baseball $497 (STAT) (June 2007) #175 Gabby Harnett Signed Baseball Bat $108 (STAT) (June 2007) #264 Mel Ott Autographed Single Baseball $405 (STAT) (June 2007) #266 Chuck Klein Autographed Single Baseball $236 (STAT) (June 2007) #267 Nap Lajoie Autographed Single Baseball $305 (STAT) (June 2007) #282 Joe Kelley Single Signed Baseball $768 (STAT) (June 2007) #597 Lou Gehrig Autographed Cut Signature $236 (STAT) (June 2007) #640 Christy Mathewson & Nap Lajoie Signatures $410 (Morales) (July 2007) # 4 Lou Gehrig Autographed Baseball Bat $1523 (STAT) (July 2007) # 13 Martin Dihigo Single-Signed Ball $850 (STAT) (July 2007) # 19 Mel Ott Hand-Written Personal Letter $300 (STAT) (July 2007) # 41 Lou Gehrig Hand-Written Letter $1166 (Morales) (July 2007) # 70 Walter Johnson Autographed Baseball Bat $260 (STAT) (Sept 2007) # 2 1927 Yankees Team Signed Bat $6720 (STAT) (Sept 2007) # 16 Dan Brouthers Hand-Written Letter $405 (STAT) (Sept 2007) # 27 Christy Mathewson Hand-Written Letter $436 (Morales) (Sept 2007) # 52 Martin Luther King Jr. Autographed Bat $163 (STAT) (Sept 2007) # 60 Charles Darwin Vintage Cut Signature $247 (STAT) (Sept 2007) # 63 Jean Harlow Signed Cut Signature $50 (STAT) (Sept 2007) #246 Jimmie Foxx Autographed Baseball Bat $1050 (Morales) (Sept 2007) #277 Honus Wagner Autographed Baseball Glove $410 (STAT) (Nov 2007) # 10 Lou Gehrig Autographed Baseball Bat $1000 (STAT) (Nov 2007) # 12 Mel Ott Autographed Baseball $923 (Morales) (Nov 2007) # 15 Chief Bender Hand Signed Baseball $441 (STAT) (Nov 2007) # 16 Hugh Duffy Hand Signed Baseball $486 (STAT) (Nov 2007) #187 J.J McGinnity Autographed Baseball $941 (Morales) (Nov 2007) #743 Hugh Duffy Signed Cut Signature $152 (STAT) (Nov 2007) #724 Rube Waddell Autographed Cut Signature $194 (STAT)

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02-15-2008, 08:07 PM

Posted By: J Levine<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203048416.JPG">

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02-15-2008, 08:18 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonPs - yes those are fair prices for 1962 collectors, not for 2008. I hope those cut signatures that are on your list are on large pieces of paper. They might have some paper value then. Josh - that is a riot, too funny <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-15-2008, 08:25 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonSome of the rarest autographs in the hobby are listed by Ps - I would love to see the exemplars used by: STAT for Chesbro,Sitting Bull, Waddell (that great cut that sold for $93), Delahanty, Josh Gibson, Anson, Brouthers, Waddell. Mr Morales - Anson, Josh Gibson, Plank, McGinnity. These autographs are almost impossible to find. I always try to have at least six exemplars of an autograph in order to feel comfortable in an autograph examination. Please Mr Morales and the boys at STAT - let us see your exemplars. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-15-2008, 09:02 PM

Posted By: DJThat is really funny Josh. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I think many of these authenticators solely rely on the Mark Allen Baker book, which ironically was published by SCD. The forgers most certainly do. There are a lot of forgeries based on those exemplars that are not correct in itself. So you have forgeries of players like Tim Keefe based on forgeries provided in a book that shows exemplars of what the public is to believe as authentic. The exemplars themselves become just as big of a challenge as the signature itself. DJ

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02-15-2008, 09:55 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeWell its another day and not a word directly from Mr. Morales and the boys from STAT. I want to thank all of you that have kept this thread going. I am sure that the above mentioned names would wish it would stop. I will try my best to make sure it doesn't.

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02-16-2008, 06:14 AM

Posted By: J. McMurryHad not heard that about the M.A. Baker books, can someone give some more details. In my opinion, it boils down to this on CM. at worst,he's a crook. At best he's completely incompetent in his profession. both equal no sale.

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02-16-2008, 06:21 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonWhy do you think that SCD issued a revised 2nd edition of that book within a very short period of time after the first edition came out ? The book has some good info but without doubt a number of the exemplars of really rare autographs are exemplars of bogus ones. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-16-2008, 06:32 AM

Posted By: ChrisMoralesI have recently returned from an assignment outside the country and have become aware of the “challenge” set forth by Shelly Jaffe concerning my capabilities and veracity. I had not been aware of this site prior to this incident. I am open to discussions, however, as noted in subsequent additions to the “challenge”, it appears that minds are made up. The following quote illustrates my point. “You have your opinion, I have mine, neither of us is going to change.” More disturbing is the statement “Just to be a pain...it would take me five minutes to create and send that same card with my name and picture on it as well.” The comments seem to be suggesting engaging in fraudulent activities. The attacks on my qualifications are false. I have contacted GW University for a correction. I have supplied a copy of my GW ID to this site. When I receive GW’s response I will share it with you. I have been laboratory trained as a document examiner, was certified and testified in court as a trained document examiner. As stated on my web site, I have never had a business or financial partnership with Donald Frangipani. At one time we discussed the concept of forming a partnership, but determined for various business reasons not to consummate the relationship. In my SCD interview, I stated that we were planning a company. It never happened. I would not have had to use the future tense if something already existed. Despite his denials, while in prison Jaffe contacted one company seeking employment. He was turned down. The company was subsequently blasted on HBO. After his release, he contacted at least two dealers offering his services. He was not employed by either party, in light of his conviction on fraud and tax charges related to forged sports memorabilia. Considering the public actions taken against any named individual who challenges the actions of Jaffe and his associates, I am withholding the names of the people contacted, but stand ready to identify them in an appropriate forum subject to a confidentiality agreement. As admitted in his “challenge”, he, together with Richard Simon and Steven Koschal, authenticated items based on scans. As pointed out by me and others, scans are not primary evidence, and authentications based on scans are worthless. As to the HBO program, I was asked to examine 5 or 6 actual items, not scans, and concluded that the items were authentic. To the best of my knowledge no one has examined all the seized items. Greg Marino made a blanket statement in a plea agreement, but never actually went through all of the items. It must also be noted that the individuals Jaffe admits associating with were tested in a court case last year in Indiana. The Court found, among other things, that both Simon and Koschal were not experts, were not trained, and were not reliable. These findings are set forth in the court’s decision. I stand by my statements, can and will provide proof of my credentials, and will verify under oath my representations.

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02-16-2008, 07:17 AM

Posted By: Josh SiegelThank You for making a response. Are you making it clear that you are trained as a Document Examiner, not an authenticator?

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02-16-2008, 07:30 AM

Posted By: Richard S. Simon1 - We did not authenticate items based on scans. We stated items were not authentic based on scans. All items we felt had a chance at being authentic were examined in person. Anybody familar with Hall of Fame autographs should be able to turn down blatantly bogus items based on scans. Experienced autograph dealers do this every single day. 2 - How do you happen to know the names of the three parties involved in your allegation that Mr Jaffe was discussing employment in the hobby. Did Mr Jaffe contact these people and then these people immediately stated "geez, I have to let Chris Morales know about this". I have no knowledge of anybody in the hobby who knows about Mr Jaffe looking for employment in the hobby. Nobody has stepped forward on this forum, which I believe has received a lot of publicity, to state that Mr Jaffe discussed employment with them. You stated you desired a forum in which to reveal these names. According to my dictionary a forum is: "A public meeting or assembly for open discussion." Then you turn around and say subject to a confidentiality agreement you will reveal their names. A forum is PUBLIC and OPEN. If your statement regarding this matter is true, then please prove it. 3 - Mr Koschal and myself were hired by Bill Daniels and deposed in a court case last year, Bill Daniels vs Mastronet. The judge did not feel that Mr Koschal and I were scientifically trained, we are not, and based solely on Indiana law, he did not allow our testimony. The law in New York State is different and I was declared an expert witness by the presiding judge, prior to my testimony, in a criminal case in Nassau County in the case of Nassau County vs. Daniel Dubcek. Mr Dubcek was a forger and he pled guilty. I think that people in the hobby have faith in our experience and knowledge, despite the fact that we have had no scientific training. Do people in the hobby have faith in a $93 Rube Waddell signature cut (not your authentication on this Waddell cut, came from the boys at STAT) or an $861 single signed Cap Anson baseball, when these items should sell for 100x that? 4 - I repeat a prior post, where are your exemplars of the really rare autographs that you wrote COA's for in Coaches Corner auctions?? Anson, Josh Gibson, Eddie Plank and JJ McGinnity and others. Any trained authenticator or document examiner has to work from exemplars. Let us see yours right now. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-16-2008, 07:33 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosDear Mr. Morales, Many of us are pleased that you have returned and now have the opportunity to address the many issues that have been brought to the fore re: your abilities and qualifications as an autograph authenticator. You made a number of statements in your initial response here, and I feel the easiest, most efficacious manner to respond would be to simply "parse" your response, which I will do in caps, below: I have recently returned from an assignment outside the country and have become aware of the “challenge” set forth by Shelly Jaffe concerning my capabilities and veracity. FOR ACCURACY'S SAKE, I BELEVE IT WAS YOU WHO HAD ISSUED "AN OPEN CHALLENGE" ON YOUR WEB SITE". I had not been aware of this site prior to this incident. I am open to discussions, however, as noted in subsequent additions to the “challenge”, it appears that minds are made up. The following quote illustrates my point. “You have your opinion, I have mine, neither of us is going to change.” More disturbing is the statement “Just to be a pain...it would take me five minutes to create and send that same card with my name and picture on it as well.” The comments seem to be suggesting engaging in fraudulent activities. YOU STATE YOU ARE OPEN TO A CHALLENGE. MR. JAFFE ISSUED SUCH A CHALLENGE AND YOUR SILENCE, FOR WHATEVER REASON, IS WHAT SPAWNED THE 200+ COMMENTS WHICH FOLLOWED. The attacks on my qualifications are false. I have contacted GW University for a correction. I have supplied a copy of my GW ID to this site. When I receive GW’s response I will share it with you. THANK YOU. WILL THEY PROVIDE SPECIFIC DETAILS OF YOUR TRANSCRIPT? WILL YOU OR THEY ALSO ADVISE WHAT "CONCENTRATION IN QUESTIONED DOCUMENTS" MEANS? WILL THE SECRET SERVICE PROVIDE SPECIFIC DETAILS OF THE TRAINING YOU RECEIVED? I have been laboratory trained as a document examiner, was certified and testified in court as a trained document examiner. PER MY POST ABOVE IT WOULD BEHOOVE YOU TO PROVIDE FULL DISCLOSURE OF YOUR EDUCATIONAL BACKGROUND, SPECIFICALLY IN HANDWRITING AND DOCUMENT ANALYSIS. ALTHOUGH THE ESTABLISHMENT OF FORENSIC LABORATORIES IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES IS A ADMIRABLE PURSUIT, I FAIL TO SEE ITS RELEVANCE IN DETERMINING WHETHER OR NOT A LINCOLN SIGNATURE IS AUTHENTIC. ELABORATION ON YOUR TESTIMONY WOULD BE HELPFUL AS WELL. As stated on my web site, I have never had a business or financial partnership with Donald Frangipani. At one time we discussed the concept of forming a partnership, but determined for various business reasons not to consummate the relationship. In my SCD interview, I stated that we were planning a company. It never happened. I would not have had to use the future tense if something already existed. SINCE YOU NOW DIGRESS FROM "THE CHALLENGE", PLEASE EXPLAIN THE WEB SITE "FORENSIC SIGNATURE AUTHENTICATIONS". IT SHOWS EXPERTS MESSRS. BRADLEY, SOLIS, FRANGIPANI AND MORALES. WERE YOU NOT PARTNERS? Despite his denials, while in prison Jaffe contacted one company seeking employment. He was turned down. The company was subsequently blasted on HBO. After his release, he contacted at least two dealers offering his services. He was not employed by either party, in light of his conviction on fraud and tax charges related to forged sports memorabilia. Considering the public actions taken against any named individual who challenges the actions of Jaffe and his associates, I am withholding the names of the people contacted, but stand ready to identify them in an appropriate forum subject to a confidentiality agreement. IMMATERIAL TO THE QUESTION AT HAND As admitted in his “challenge”, he, together with Richard Simon and Steven Koschal, authenticated items based on scans. As pointed out by me and others, scans are not primary evidEnce, and authentications based on scans are worthless. AS AN AUCTIONEER OF OVER 40,000+ HISTORIC AUTOGRAPHS, SIR, I CAN WELL ASSURE YOU THAT SOME FORGERIES ARE SO POORLY-ACCOMPLISHED, I DON'T NEED TO SEE THEM IN-PERSON. CAN YOU DENY THAT? As to the HBO program, I was asked to examine 5 or 6 actual items, not scans, and concluded that the items were authentic. To the best of my knowledge no one has examined all the seized items. Greg Marino made a blanket statement in a plea agreement, but never actually went through all of the items. I IMAGINE MR. FITZSIMMONS COULD SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ON THIS. It must also be noted that the individuals Jaffe admits associating with were tested in a court case last year in Indiana. The Court found, among other things, that both Simon and Koschal were not experts, were not trained, and were not reliable. These findings are set forth in the court’s decision. I WILL LEAVE IT TO MESSRS. KOSCHAL AND SIMON TO RESPOND. I stand by my statements, can and will provide proof of my credentials, and will verify under oath my representations. RONALD REAGAN ONCE SAID: "TRUST, BUT VERIFY". FRANKLY, MR. MORALES, I HAVE NEVER TRUSTED YOUR JUDGMENT. I BASE MY OPINION ON YOUR HISTORICAL MATERIAL, AUTHENTICATIONS OF WHICH EMBARRASS ME. I CERTAINLY HAVE MADE MISTAKES...BUT I DON'T TOUT MYSELF AS A PROFESSIONAL AUTHENTICATOR. NEVERTHELESS, THAT'S ONLY MY OPINION. SHOW YOUR CREDENTIALS. MAKE THEM PUBLIC. IF YOU ARE INDEED AS QUALIFIED AS YOU SAY YOU ARE, THEN THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO USE YOUR SERVICES DO SO WITH "EYES WIDE OPEN".

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02-16-2008, 08:30 AM

Posted By: J LevineNow that Mr. Morales finally has come on board, I have a few questions... How many authentications do you do weekly? Are you on a salary for CC auctions or do you get paid by the cert. or do you get a piece of the final value of the auction? What are the exemplars that you currently use? If I sent you something to examine, what fee would I pay as an individual? I know you say that your authentications and examinations are only opinions but if an overwhelming majority turn out to be fakes and forgeries would you actually admit to being mistaken and try to improve yourself or would you just continue to do what you do regardless? Joshua

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02-16-2008, 08:40 AM

Posted By: J. McMurryI believe Koschal has already posted a response on his web site autographalert.com. RICHARD, I have both the Baker books,but never heard anything about bad exemplars in the first one. Should I assume that the bad examples were the ones that were different in the 2nd edition? As before, Creditials dont mean as much as ones historical body of work.

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02-16-2008, 08:44 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonJ Mc you ask "Should I assume that the bad examples were the ones that were different in the 2nd edition?" I think that is the correct assumption, though I don't own the 2nd edition, I assume they made at least some corrections. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-16-2008, 09:05 AM

Posted By: J. McMurryIf I remember correctly there were some changed examples in the 2nd book,but for the most part the examples were exactly the same pics as the first.

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02-16-2008, 09:18 AM

Posted By: johnMr. Morales, I think the question posed to you from Richard Simon is great. I would like to see your exemplars on the guys requested

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02-16-2008, 10:05 AM

Posted By: BobA few weeks prior to this thread being started, I contacted Ted Taylor in regards to the Amos Rusie ball that was in the Coach's auction. I had asked him how he had come to authenticate it as genuine and was even willing to drive down to PA to look at it myself with my own expert. After one or two back and forths in which Mr. Taylor was getting irrate with my logical questions, he of course stopped answering my e-mails. The Rusie ball, which is probably a $50,000-70,000 baseball, sold for less than $1,700. I contacted him yesterday in hopes of getting a response that I can share with the board as far as him either participating or not-participating and he released to me the following statement which I told him ahead of time that I would share with the group in a posting: I have no interest in the petty rants of such small minded people. In fact we have not read nor will we. Robert

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02-16-2008, 10:13 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonI had made a mind bet with myself as this thread grew. I said that Mr Morales would appear here and the guys from STAT would not. What a surprise to see that reply from Ted Taylor. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-16-2008, 11:37 AM

Posted By: Phil NapI guess I will commend Mr. Morales on showing up here. However, I will qualify that on the condition that he returns to answer all of the questions that have been posed. I am certainly looking forward to a continued debate between him and Richard. Ted Taylor's position, as related by Bob, is not at all surprising to me. Like Bob I too had an email back and forth with Ted Taylor. Mine was a while back, after he responded to the HBO segment with a letter published in the "Feedback" section of SCD. After reading his letter I wrote a response which was also published, however slightly edited by those at SCD. I will note that I did ask SCD not to publish my letter unless it was published as I submitted. Since I attempted to call out Coach's Corner in the unedited version, that did not happen. At the time I did send unedited copies of my letter to both Ted Taylor and Coach's and had some email correspondence back and forth with both of them. Coach's cut off that communication rather quickly but Ted's communications continued for a while. Bob's account of him becoming irrate is pretty much the same reaction I received.. To be honest it became quite humorous because as much as he made it clear he didn't want to discuss things with me anymore, it was almost like he couldn't help himself but to respond. Anyway after a long period of no communication I too sent him notice of this thread when "Eddie" (oops I mean Shelly) started it. He didn't respond to me. I guess he's still mad at me.

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02-16-2008, 11:59 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeFirst off I would like to thank Mr Morales for appearing on this thread. I hope his trip to Mongolia was productive. Mr Morales I would now like to answer and question some of the points in your post - There is a resume of yours on the internet at - <a href="http://www.forensicsignatureauthentications.com/files/Chris_Morales_No_phone_QD_Resume.PDF" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.forensicsignatureauthentications.com/files/Chris_Morales_No_phone_QD_Resume.PDF</a> It is a different resume than the one on your website and was placed there by the company Forensic Signature Authentications. In that resume it says that you and Donald Frangipani are currently partners in a company called Frangipani and Morales Forensic Authentications and All City Investigations. If this is incorrect why did you allow this company to publish this information? Though your resume is no longer linked to the website of this Forensic Signature Authentications, the resume is still on the internet. This company stated that you were one of their authenticators along with Donald Frangipani. Were you an authenticator for this company? If not why did they post such information. It was on the internet for quite some time. Mr Frangipani in his past SCD interview first states that he is your partner than states he is not. He then states that you are his protege. I sent Mr Frangipani approximately 500 forgeries and he authenticated ALL OF THEM. Are you really a protege of someone like that? You state on your website that forensic examiners helped to bring me down. Exactly which forensic examiners did that?? You and I know there were none. Wayne Bray was responsible for bringing me and everyone else down. Would the FBI have used you or Mr Frangipani for this? You have stated that "while in prison Jaffe contacted one company seeking employment. He was turned down. The company was subsequently blasted on HBO". In order for me to contact any person by phone they would have to be on my calling list which I had to have in my incarceration. This is a federal rule. Nobody in this business was on my calling list. I never wrote one letter while incarcerated so I don't know how you claim that I contacted any company about employment. You also say that the company I contacted was blasted by the HBO show. Well the companies and individuals that were blasted on the HBO show were Donald Frangipani, William Tell, AAU, Christopher Morales and STAT. (STAT was not yet in business while I was incarcerated). I would never try to work for or with any of those people or companies. Frangipani was blasted by an undercover investigation with a hidden camera and the other entities were blasted by having their COA's shown during the show and having the reporter state that these COA's were authentications of bogus items. I did discuss employment with Tracercode and did work for them for a short time. Everyone who has read this thread knows that. I don't remember discussing employment with anyone else in this business. If you can prove that I did discuss employment, well please go ahead and do it publicly. Regarding the items that were used on the HBO show, they all came from Nate Harrison's autograph items stash in the Federal warehouse. He knew exactly which items he had that were forgeries. He, myself and Tim Fitzsimmons of the FBI took these items from the Federal warehouse where all the items gathered during the Federal raids were kept. We even went out of our way to pick one horribly forged item, in the vain attempt to see if everyone would get that item correct. It was a horrendous autograph of Michael Jordan, laughable actually. The only two authenticators to state it was authentic were Donald Frangipani and you, Christopher Morales. Check with Tim Fitzsimmons if you doubt this. I would guess the number of items you have authenticated could number in the thousands. If I am wrong, let me know. You have authenticated autographs in all categories. Where are your exemplars for the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Elvis, Sinatra,Led Zeppelin and for all the other rare sports items? You have authenticated Josh Gibson's pants in the current CC auction. Let's see the exemplars for that signature. How did you obtain your exemplars? I am sure an autograph authenticator has vast exemplar files. Let's see some of yours. The authenticators I know in this field have taken many, many years to assemble a good exemplar file. How did you assemble yours? How many items have you turned down for authentication? Can we see pictures of some of those. I know of at least 2 authenticators that keep records of all the items that fail their authentications. Do you? Are you truly a qualified Questioned Document Examiner. If so why don't you have that title? If you are eligible to be in the Questioned Document Examiner of AAFS it is automatic, it is not something you have an option about. It is also considered an honor to be in that section. You are not in that section. I could be wrong but I spoke to several people at AAFS about this, including Jerry Richards, former FBI agent, who has been in Federal court many times and is now working independently. He is a member of the board of AAFS. He was one of the persons to give me this information about being in the Questioned Document section of AAFS. We are also very interested in any court cases where your decision regarding handwriting helped the government prove a case. Can you tell us any specifics regarding this? Can you tell us one major auction house that is well regarded in the hobby where a COA of yours has ever appeared? I admit that my participation with the Marino family was a disaster for me. I made a mistake. I have owned up to that. I think that it is time for you to own up to the disaster that you are helping to perpetuate, the authentication of autographs that are not authentic. You obviously have no capabilities in this autograph field. I admire the work you have done for the government, forensic work, Secret Service and whatever else you might have done. That has nothing to do with autographs. You are doing a disservice to the autograph community with your work. You are costing people many, many thousands of dollars. I can be fairly certain that many of the autographs you have authenticated have been bought with the hopes that they might pay for a new house someday or perhaps a childs college education. Years from now, those people will be crushed, perhaps financially ruined. I like to think that I know forgeries when I see them. I have looked at many CC auctions over the years. It is sad to see what I see. What you are doing has to stop now. Stop doing this now. You are hurting people and you will continue to do so. Belive me I know how people feel when they find out that the items the bought where fake. The reason I started this thread was to bring you to a public forum. I hurt people and I am sorry for it. I can't undo what I did, but you sure can. You are still hurting people and don't seem to care. Once again I say please stop.

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02-16-2008, 01:07 PM

Posted By: Aaron PattonA Cy Young signed hat? (CC 2/28 Lot 401) Absolute insanity. I'll be cancelling my subscription to SCD this evening. Best,

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02-16-2008, 01:14 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonThe hat is hand signed,,, wonder what other way it could have been signed? Maybe it is a facsimile signature? Maybe it is an autopen signature? -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-16-2008, 01:47 PM

Posted By: Chuck TapiaMr. Morales, I have to side with the jailbird on this one. First Shelly, I want to thank you for all your pleadings and your attempt to do the right thing, and I hope I'm not out of line with that crack about "jailbird." It is nice to have you on the side of the industry that we all love. Chris, I want to thank you for sharing your view points as well. Where else can you get so many fountains of Mis-information all in one place? Seriously though, Chris, you are really sliding down a slippery slope in what you are doing. You are using your talents incorrectly. You really are not an expert in the sports and celebrity autograph field and you are trying to push yourself off as one. You credentials are great, for anything but hand writing analysis. You are duping the public, but most importantly kidding yourself to make a buck. You will never be able to distance your self from "The Donald". Unfortunately you got into bed with a doofus and there is no turning back I'm afraid. Not entirely your fault probably, but facts are facts. Until you make a conscious effort to do the right thing by our hobby and quit the crap you are doing, you will face this the rest of your life. You really should join forces with Shelly and form your own company, called Frick and Fracks Cracker Jacks Authenticators and use your talents to combat evil people like the wads you are in bed with yet again. Right out of the oven and back into the frying pan. I guess, when your work is so questionable, you don't have that many options. Maybe you are just stupid and don't know what your doing. I think not. I think you know exactly what your doing and tell yourself your are doing a good job, just like Roger is telling himself he didn't Roid up. I have no alliances here, but am merely a collector that you are turning OFF OFF OFF. Do the right thing and quit putting out the crap certifications you are now doing. Then and only then can you repair your reputation which is pretty important. Much more important than the piles of money you are making. Shelly's giving it a try and I'm starting to like him, you sir are a disgrace to the human race and also our little hobby. Chuck

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02-16-2008, 02:18 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosWell said, Mr. Jaffe. While we await your response to my earlier inquiry, Mr. Morales, just a few more questions, if you don't mind. Elaborating on your areas of expertise a bit, it seems that you also authenticate a good deal of non-baseball material, that is, historical and pop-culture items. As I (bragged) before, I've sold a lot of autographs in my time, but there are many fields I need help on. I'm not bashful in asking for assistance, because frankly I've never encountered any dealer, auctioneer or authenticator who considers himself fully competent to authenticate EVERY autograph extant. No one can contain that amount of expertise in the human cranium (except, perhaps, an "idiot savant"). Now, you obviously do an awful lot of authenticating of baseball material. But according to websites I've viewed and catalogs I've obtained, you've also authenticated: The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, John F. Kennedy, Orville Wright, Eric Clapton (with the members of Derek and the Dominoes and Cream), Jefferson Airplane, The Band, Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band, the Grateful Dead, Charlie Chaplin, Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Jimi Hendrix Experience, the Allman Brothers, Creedence Clearwater Revival, the Who, Sitting Bull, Boston, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Nirvana, Johnny Cash, Bobby Darin, Elvis Presley, Marilyn Monroe, cast members of The Godfather, Caddyshack, American Graffiti, the Wizard of Oz, and The Blues Brothers, Charles Lindbergh, Buzz Aldrin, KISS, Frank Sinatra and the "Rat Pack", Bob Marley, Muhammed Ali, Neil Armstrong, Clark Gable, Cole Younger, George A. Custer, and hundreds more. How were you able to handle enough material and obtain enough experience to confidently authenticate these items? Most of these names are the most forged signatures on the market, and their ethical authentication requires much more than a "cursory" examination. And some of the items you approved are of extraordinary rarity, yet appear in dealer catalogs, showrooms, and on web sites with alarming frequency, selling for a fraction of their true value. How could a Beatles signed album sell for only $15-20,000, even in a retail gallery, when auction records show such albums selling well in excess of $75,000? And if they are indeed authentic, I would certainly like to know the source - and buy a few bushels full, send them to Christie's, and retire. What do these galleries and internet auction houses know that we don't? In the HBO Sorts expose, your associate, Mr. Frangipani, was asked: "When you gett all these items coming in, boxes and boxes...you don't say...what the hell's going on here, where's all this stuff coming from?...How can there be this much real stuff" He replied: "Oh, I always ask myself that question.". Mr. Morales: Do you ever ask yourself that question?

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02-16-2008, 02:24 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeRichard. I see you said hand signed.The real question is whose hand signed it? Just to give the thread a little more info,The Donald charged on average $7 an autograph and was able to send back by overnight a 100 items at a time.. Mr. Morales what is your cost and how many do you do a day?

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02-16-2008, 02:54 PM

Posted By: Chris MoralesRichard, Your question pertaining to my exemplars files is just and a good question. I have spent many thousands of dollars and 100's of man hours between myself and other colleagues. I have more than the "required" number of 6 you mentioned. Because of my considerable costs in buildiing my files, I will not provide these to the public in open forum. I will direct you to the same locations I and other colleagues accessed, at consederable cost and time. You can do the work yourself. I will note a few of these to help you along: Anson: 1. 11 examples from the Baseball Hall of Fame files (I encourage any autogaph collector to do the same but it does cost for the service. In the late 80's an early 90's, they allowed public access to their records, but now seem to have tightened up the access and require more credentialing). 2. Sothebys 4-9-94 letter lot 236 3. Anson calling card Halper collection 4. 1901 Anson presentation book page from Halper collection Josh Gibson 1. The Baseball Hall of Fame, many examples 2. Harison studios twice signed photo (recently discovered) 3. 4 winter league contracts 4. Josh Gibson and Paige signed baseball (Mastro auction last name only) Eddie Plank: 1. The Baseball Hall of Fame many examples 2. Mastro auctions lot 2310 August 2006 3. Nov. 2000 lot 563 Mastro auctions 4. July 2000 Mastro auctions I have complete copies of the George M Klepper collection of first day covers that surfaced in the early 1990's and was distributed through the hobby. I have copies of most of the signatures from the Spalding archive housed in the New York Public Library (Again, I encourage any collector or dealer to access this. It is time consuming and you will have labor costs, but well worth the time.) I have letters from Joe McGinnity, Rube Waddell and other dead ball era players. My exemplar base of dead ball players would be hard to beat. I stand confident, willing and able to present these in any court of law. I will not answer to a dozen different commands, threats or requirements from individuals who have already formed a negative opinion. I am preparing a response to many of the issues, including evidence from GWU that is being prepared. Sine GWU is closed on Monday, I expect to have all compiled by the middle of next week.

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02-16-2008, 03:27 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosThen why, Mr. Morales, do none of the major auction houses in this country accept your authentications? Why does almost every item you authenticate fail to meet the approval of autograph dealers, auctioneers and collectors nationwide, when viewed in comparison to authentic examples and contextually? If you truly do have exemplars of all of these items, hundreds if not thousands of autographs in the fields of rock, pop-culture, presidential, criminal, native American, baseball, artists, Hollywood, and so on, and you study all of these exemplars when authenticating an autograph, then...you have the worst eye for autographs I've ever seen. Find a new job.

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02-16-2008, 03:29 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonMr Morales - You won't reveal the names of the dealers that you said Mr Jaffe talked to about employment. You won't reveal your exemplars to the public. You seem to not want to reveal anything that will prove the points you are attempting to make. You have also not answered a key question. Are you truly a Questioned Document Examiner? The information on this thread from the AAFS seems to contradict you in that regard. Can you please clarify this point. And does it not make you wonder that the prices achieved by CC with your certs. do not even approximate the estimates of CC, let alone the prices achieved by other auctions? Does it not make you wonder that the prices achieved by CC are fractions of what dealers and auction houses would pay for authentic autographs? Does it not make you wonder when a Cap Anson ball with your COA reaches the rarified heights of $800? Does it not make you wonder that CC seems to have a never ending supply of the rarest HOF autographs in the hobby, when other auction houses rarely get those signatures? You state that you and other colleagues accessed files, etc. Who are these colleagues? Why not just show those McGinnity and Waddell letters. Just those two items would give your answer a modicum of credibility. And how about the exemplars for: The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, John F. Kennedy, Orville Wright, Eric Clapton (with the members of Derek and the Dominoes and Cream), Jefferson Airplane, The Band, Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band, the Grateful Dead, Charlie Chaplin, Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Jimi Hendrix Experience, the Allman Brothers, Creedence Clearwater Revival, the Who, Sitting Bull, Boston, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Nirvana, Johnny Cash, Bobby Darin, Elvis Presley, Marilyn Monroe, cast members of The Godfather, Caddyshack, American Graffiti, the Wizard of Oz, and The Blues Brothers, Charles Lindbergh, Buzz Aldrin, KISS, Frank Sinatra and the "Rat Pack", Bob Marley, Muhammed Ali, Neil Armstrong, Clark Gable, Cole Younger, George A. Custer, and hundreds more. All of which are carrying your COA's, as per Mr. Panagopulos. --- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-16-2008, 03:30 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosBy the way...who are your "colleagues"?

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02-16-2008, 03:38 PM

Posted By: DJIsn't it amusing that the exemplars that you have gathered through auction houses, were in almost every case, already authenticated by "experts" and not by "forensics"? While you mention you have Josh Gibson exemplars, how do you explain the amount of Gibson signatures in the past that you have in fact passed? I mean signed pants one month for less than $200 and then a few months later, another signed pair of pants? Mel Ott signed jerseys? Jimmie Foxx signed jerseys? Lou Gehrig signed jerseys? Mastro sells Mel Ott signed balls for $25,000 every couple years. Mel Ott balls authenticated by you bring on average $800 in Coach's Corner. Do you use those Mastro exemplars to authenticate your monthly Ott that sells for 3% of a Mastro price? Exemplars mean nothing unless you know your source and the history behind these pieces. Example: Josh Gibson = rare. DJ

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02-16-2008, 03:45 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeI still have that one question you have not answered. If you are that good, why did you get five out of five wrong on the HBO show. The only one that did worse than you was the Donald 0 for 7 your teacher? God help the students of GWU if you taught them.

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02-16-2008, 04:30 PM

Posted By: Paul MossI hate to say it, but as inappropriate this thread is for a card forum, I am thoroughly enjoying it. Over the years, I have made many incredibly stupid decisions that would qualify me to become the village idiot, on the other hand there have been some that were brilliant. Having read through, and stayed with this thread since its inception, I can only pat myself on the back for the utterly genius move on my part to quit collecting autographs and sell 99% of them eight or nine years ago. The skullduggery in cards PALES in comparison to the outright bum buggery and piracy on the high seas with the wonderful world of autographs. Yes, they're cool when you get them in person, especially when these guys were your favorites from one's youth. Hey, I got Mickey Mantle at the 94 National for the ball breaking price of $90 at the UD autograph signing booth, and Mohammed Ali signed my Cassius Clay album cover "Cassius Clay" and clowned around with my son I guess around 12 years ago. Obviously these were keepers...... Good memories. After reading all this, and realizing that anyone with a steady hand, a good eye, and a supply of old ink, can be in business tomorrow, why on earth would anyone bother to collect this stuff? Perhaps I should set myself up as a "qualified" examiner as there seems to be a few bucks in this end of the game. No need to send me the items, I authenticate them using my psychic powers. I have no need for exemplars as my powers are more than sufficient to ascertain the genuine sigs from the fake. Are you questioning my psychic powers? Go ahead..........at least I'll issue a really fancy COA/letter, lots of scroll design on quality colored paper with my bold signature stating my opinion. It will be worth the paper it's printed on. Guaranteed! <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i8/zardoz51/DSC00786.jpg"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203168048.JPG"> edited scan size

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02-16-2008, 04:33 PM

Posted By: J. McmurryThe thing that is becoming the most disturbing to me is the attitude of SCD regarding the coaches corner gang. If it's true that SCD is protecting the CCG, then they are just as guilty of selling fakes, and I too will terminate my subscription. I dont care if your resume includes a picture of you and J. Edgar Hoover holding hands, if your coa's are attatched to S***,then your credibility is S***.

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02-16-2008, 05:11 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffe I was just on the Internet to see who else uses Mr.Morales services. There is a company out of Florida with four stores and two more opening. They show Beatles,Rolling Stone, Jimmy Hendricks, Greatfull Dead and many many more impossible to get items. I wonder just how many of these items have been sold with Morales certs. Here is there web site.<a href="http://www.americanroyalarts.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.americanroyalarts.com</a> I wonder if they have seen this thread.

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02-16-2008, 05:16 PM

Posted By: Ricky YOn rare pieces, common sense would dictate due diligence in checking out provenance of said items. I know that if I was bidding on a Josh Gibson signature on anything, I'd like the answer to who owned it, where it came from, and how it was obtained...in addition to someone's opinion on its validity. I mean just look at REA Auctions..on a rare piece like that you will get a full page write up or at least a couple of paragraphs regarding the provenance. CC auctions just has one sentence blurbs..rare and authentic signed Josh Gibson pants..certified authentic...okay I'll bid! Ricky Y

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02-16-2008, 05:22 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonWonder what the size of the pants is as compared to the size of the last pair they auctioned off? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-16-2008, 05:27 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaCoach's Corner is a parasite and it has taken over the SCD. The parasite has run off many subscribers and now the SCD can not survive without its parasite. Truly sad that a once great publication has been reduced to hobby corruption on a grand scale. Olbermann isn't writing for that rag anymore is he?

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02-16-2008, 05:32 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeRicky, you left out the best part of the description. you can see it from 14 miles away.The other one is Lee Guarantees this item.

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02-16-2008, 05:54 PM

Posted By: DJLove the Ali piece. He NEVER signs it like that unless he's being playful and in the mood. You have proof that he signed it in the fact that his mug is right by the album, but did you have it authenticated by an "autograph" expert after you got it signed? That sticker (man I hate any stickers on my stuff) in the bottom left, Global? DJ

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02-16-2008, 07:38 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosI could just barf... See that comment about the Ali piece above? Another example of someone who has been COMPLETELY turned off of autographs because of corrupt, inept, dishonest, incompetent, idiotic and/or otherwise simply criminal autograph authenticators. Who pays the price? Not just the poor victims duped into buying fake junk, but you and I. Why? As more and more of this fake crap hits the market at garage sale prices, our authentic material just sees its prices get diluted. And the more people are turned off, the smaller the market becomes for our authentic material, and hence the lower the price it will fetch when we finally decide to sell it. So, next time you run into an incompetent forensic examiner, or a shady auctioneer, or an idiot authenticator, thank him for plucking a few bucks out of your kid's college fund every day.

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02-16-2008, 07:48 PM

Posted By: soliriJaffe, In your open letter to Mr. Morales you make the following reference, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Forensics kept us in business! Donald Frangipani passed 100% of the items sent to him. Did you see that part on the HBO Real Sports special where FBI special agent Tim Fitzsimmons plucks from a box a dozen or so identical looking Babe Ruth signed album pages, all with Frangipani Loa’s and all authenticated on the same day? Lets explore your statement; You say that Frangipani passed 100% of items sent to him. My question to you is what hard proof do you have that will back up this statement? How many items do you claim you sent him? The next area of your statement I would like to explore is Special Agent Tim Fitzsimmons plucks from a box a dozen or so identical looking Babe Ruth signed album pages, all with Frangipani LOA's all authenticated on the same day? Again I ask you other than you making this statement what proof do you have that these pieces even went to Frangipani and he issued loa's for them on the same day? Can you tell us what reference number/s where on the loa's or are those the same? I think you might have left out a very important fact, one you probably no nothing about and that is Mr. Fitzsimmons was in Frangipani's office prior to the airing of the HBO program. Here’s the important part you left out, Mr. Fitzsimmons showed Frangipani numerous coa's that allegedly he issued. A funny thing happened during this visit, Frangipani was able to prove that a very high percentage of the letters were forged and or copied. That brings me to my last question, Why wasn't that fact mentioned during the HBO program. Look forward to your respose. SIGEXPORT

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02-16-2008, 08:04 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosSigexpert, A quickie - Why on earth would someone steal or forge a Frangipani COA? That's like stealing Conefederate banknotes and trying to spend them at the A&P.

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02-16-2008, 08:49 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeI would like to take a moment to reflect on how The Donald has been unduly(pause) I will be back in a flash to finish the statement.

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02-16-2008, 09:10 PM

Posted By: soliriIf you think about it, what better way to legitimize your product. Use a recognized name. Back then Frangipani was a premier name as far as authentication and one of few who actually had and still has legitimate credentials.

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02-16-2008, 09:32 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeI am still thinking about something nice I can say about the Donald. I will take to task the above statement. He had no reputation that I knew of other than the fact that he would authenticate any thing put in front of him. I am putting together an reply to your other questions Rich. Please give me a moment more.

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02-16-2008, 10:08 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffe Rich, I was trying to think of something nice, I waited and waited and waited and can’t think of anything thing that wasn’t derogatory. Let’s explore your questions to me: Rich says: You say that Frangipani passed 100% of items sent to him. My question to you is what hard proof do you have that will back up this statement? How many items do you claim you sent him? WHAT HARD PROOF? Your own man confessed in a Sports Collector’s Digest interview. SCD: Were there instances in which you got fooled by a group of forgeries? DF: I've been wrong many, many, many times. During Operation Bullpen, there were a lot of professional forgers out there. I was fooled; I've been duped many times, and I'm the first to admit it. Sheldon Jaffe (who was convicted in Operation Bullpen), I did over 474 pieces for him, and he paid me $4,060. How's that (for honesty)? Frangipani admits to authenticating over 450 pieces for me and that figure I think is low. I used to send him between 75 and 100 pieces and he would overnight the certificates to me with separate authenticating numbers. I’m sure the Donald has kept records of all the items he passed, since he is a professional at what he does. He has never failed an item I sent him. I repeat: HE HAS NEVER FAILED AN ITEM THAT I HAVE SENT HIM! Rich writes: The next area of your statement I would like to explore is Special Agent Tim Fitzsimmons plucks from a box a dozen or so identical looking Babe Ruth signed album pages, all with Frangipani LOA's all authenticated on the same day? This was on the HBO Real Sports Special. There were thousands of these items sorted in the San Diego warehouse. He could have picked up any box filed with forgerys. He merely picked up a pile from the closest box of crap near him. That box contained numerous items most of them being pieces that the Donald authenticated. Part 1:<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bZF5rvPPIY" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bZF5rvPPIY</a> Part 2:<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx3I8VE2aUU&feature=related" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx3I8VE2aUU&feature=related</a> Rich writes: I ask you other than you making this statement what proof do you have that these pieces even went to Frangipani and he issued loa's for them on the same day? Can you tell us what reference number/s where on the loa's or are those the same? It’s from his own statement that these items went to him. READ THE INTERVIEW! I’m only talking about what I KNOW I sent him. I do know that most of the people within this group sent items and they all came back with Frangipani certs. Stan, Smokey’s Nate Harrison etc,. Rich writes: I think you might have left out a very important fact, one you probably no nothing about and that is Mr. Fitzsimmons was in Frangipani's office prior to the airing of the HBO program I have no knowlege of that fact. Do you? Rich writes: Here’s the important part you left out, Mr. Fitzsimmons showed Frangipani numerous coa's that allegedly he issued. A funny thing happened during this visit, Frangipani was able to prove that a very high percentage of the letters were forged and or copied. Are you telling me that Fitzsimmons admitted he had numerous illegally forged Frangipani documents. . As my colleague above says, why would you forge a Frangipani cert. To save $5? Rich writes: Why wasn't that fact mentioned during the HBO program. I didn’t have anything to do with the HBO Special. HBO was responsible for all the content. HBO appeared at Frangipani’s door, not the FBI. HBO chose to do what ever they felt was right for the show. I am sure that if push came to shove you could get the outtakes.. Let me ask you this; why is your man still in business? He went 0-7 and he continues to authenticate garbage. I know that you guys represent him. Come out of your shell and tell me. Your own man admitted to SCD that he authenticated 475 forgeries for ME. He is banned from eBay. Coach’s Corner doesn’t even use him anymore. No auction house uses him. WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU? If I was an attorney and I knew he was the expert I would jump for joy. If there was a devil and they had disciples, Donald Frangipani would be the devil of the forensic world. Not a disciples

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02-16-2008, 10:34 PM

Posted By: Corey R. ShanusMr. Morales, If as has been reported it is the case that a significant percentage of items you authenticate typically sell for literally pennies on the dollar, the market is telling you that it does not respect your opinions. If the truth was anything else, then purchasers of Morales-authenticated items would have them authenticated by authenticators respected by the market, reconsign them and almost certainly see them sell for multiples more than their purchase price. This then would cause future Morales-authenticated items to sell for more (after all, people will learn they can make money buying your items) and the cycle will continue until the prices of items authenticated by you roughly correspond to the prices of such items as if authenticated by market-respected authenticators. None of this (significant price rise) has happened. The market is emphatically stating that items with your seal of approval are essentially worthless. In time I believe the law will take a long hard look at what you and others of your ilk are doing and take actions to put you out of business.

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02-16-2008, 11:16 PM

Posted By: David DavisThere is always a money trail. If any of these 3 (CC/Morales/STAT) were smart, they would not be involved in the forgery business. I would think that a certified forensic document expert would be smart enough to anticipate what a "certified" forensic auditor can do. I would surmise there may be a bigger fish waiting to be fried. Remember, the smartest one is usually the one that cuts a deal. What does Coaches Corner pay for each item authenticated by Morales? How much does STAT charge them? How many per auction for each? How much of Morales/STAT authenticating business is from CC? Who consigns the material in the auction? What percentage of the items in each auction are owned by CC/Morales/STAT? What percentage of signed material in CC auctions are authenticated by someone other that Morales/STAT? How many signed items have an actual reserve on them? How many end up being paid for? How many are returned (or attempted) to CC? There are hundreds more questions like this waiting to be answered.

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02-17-2008, 05:16 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonTo clarify something for the board here - soliri (the person that Shelly Jaffe refers to as Rich) is almost certainly Rich Solis. A partner (owner?) in the firm of Forensic Signature Authentications. When the website for this company first went up Donald Frangipani and Chris Morales were listed as part of the authentication team for this company along with Andrew Bradley and Mr Solis. Mr Morales has denied any involvement with this company. There were links to resumes of the Donald and Mr Morales on the website of this company. This page is no longer on the website of the company. So either Mr Solis was working with Mr Morales or he or someone connected to this company put Mr Morales' info on the site without Mr Morales' permission. NOTE TO MR MORALES - when you post here again, will you please tell the board if your resume and picture were put on this company's website with or without your permission. Mr Solis worked with the Donald. He has been a defender of the Donald since Day 1. As dialogue with Mr Solis is totally pointless and fruitless, this is all I will ever say about him, no matter what bait he attempts. When you answer him, he becomes like a fly, he never goes away. He does not deserve my effort or time, and he will get neither. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-17-2008, 05:38 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonMr Davis - good post. You are oh so right when referencing the money trail. Follow the money for what would be the best evidence. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-17-2008, 05:44 AM

Posted By: Al SimeoneRichard, I like flies! You know what they say it only takes one good swat!! Well maybe 2 in this case!!!!

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02-17-2008, 05:51 AM

Posted By: johnBill, I thought about starting a new thread for this but since this one is all over the place, I left it in here. In your last auction, the following lots that were sold in the sports section are,in my oinion, no good. Shelly may want to step in here and comment also. The lots are : LOTS: #1918 Joe DiMaggio photo #1919 DiMaggio Williams Mantle photo #1932 Mantle photo #1944 Williams 8x10 #1948 Jeter ball Shelly can speak to you privately or I can. He can tell you the source too. The major authenticators are aware of the source and will tell you quickly that they're not authentic. Richard maybe can help you on this also. I didn't go through the sports sectioin as a whole but these jumped out at me. I wanted to alert you as soon as possible.

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02-17-2008, 08:10 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosJohn, Thanks for your input, which, believe it or not, is very much appreciated. Let me open by saying: I HATE BASEBALL! I mean not the sport, the damned autographs. Almost as much as I hate modern Hollywood. Why? Because the forgers of both now have reached an astounding level of competence. Anyone who has dealt with us in the past fifteen years will tell you that whenever there's been a question with a lot, we go to the best in the business, seek out their opinions, and if there's any question, we yank the item. Period. Also note that 99% of what we offer is non-baseball autographs, and in future sales we've decided to cut out essentially all baseball unless its provenance is ironclad. I mean, Babe Ruth's liver will have to accompany his signature... Yours is the first I've heard about those items. Whenever we offer something, I WANT to know if it's bad. Unlike so many other houses, we offer a lifetime guarantee of authenticity, so if a piece comes back ten years from now and my consignor is in Bolivia, I eat it - so, tell me now! Obviously, auction ethics will not permit me to disclose the consignor's name (nor do I ever disclose buyers' names), but I suspect these pieces came from the same guy. If you or Richard or Steve K. know the identity of the forger and can give me good, solid info, I'll follow up with the Feds with whom I have worked before on many occasions, and issue refunds. Also send me your particulars (if you want) and eel free to vet my catalog once it's out. Let's not digress from the topic at hand, which is the wholesale issuance of certificates backing patently bad material worth millions.

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02-17-2008, 08:28 AM

Posted By: johnBill, I've tried to email through your site. It may be my provider but I can't get through. I am asked for a 25 digit product code? It never allows me to go directly to an email box. Email or call Shelly, he has the most information. He and I recently had a conversation about the product and source. The FBI is aware.

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02-17-2008, 08:31 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonJohn - bill@alexautographs.com -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-17-2008, 08:33 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosThanks again, John! Will be calling Shelly and Richard momentarily. Will follow up.

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02-17-2008, 09:34 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeIf there is a lawyer on this site that I can ask a few questions with out being charged, please email me. Civil or Criminal would be fine. It does have to do with this thread.

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02-17-2008, 11:06 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeThanks for all the emails. I got my answer.

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02-17-2008, 11:26 AM

Posted By: PaulIs it really true that the Hall of Fame has "many examples" of Josh Gibson's signature? I'm no expert in this field, but I would find that very surprising.

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02-17-2008, 01:32 PM

Posted By: johnPaul, The Hall has so much that it is really a sad situation. I can't speak for Josh Gibson but they have so many items that will never be shown to the public. I begged George Kell, HOF member, to not donate his Silver Slugger award and other items. The Hall put the hard sale on him and he donated everything. To this day, 17 years later, his items have not been displayed. My experience with their archives have been with photos primarily. Their 18000's photo archive is indescribable. So much on rarities like Carl Horners, Van Oeyen, Conlon, and on and on. Everyone over the years including teams, league offices, players and fans have donated to them. They need 10 times the space they have now. Two years ago I made a request for anything on Lon Warneke to give to his wife. His 98 year old widow is still alive and kicking. I paid for the scans and duplicates of their photos on Warneke. I expected to see a dozen or so. I made them stop at 200 and they had more. This was on Lon Warneke, not even a Hall of Fame member.

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02-17-2008, 04:37 PM

Posted By: soliriSimon, once again you simply mislead the readers and misrepresents facts. Mr Koschal and myself were hired by Bill Daniels and deposed in a court case last year, Bill Daniels vs Mastronet. The judge did not feel that Mr Koschal and I were scientifically trained, we are not, and based solely on Indiana law, he did not allow our testimony. The law in New York State is different. Simon, The following is part of a post from a Feb 15 post, 3 - Mr Koschal and myself were hired by Bill Daniels and deposed in a court case last year, Bill Daniels vs Mastronet. The judge did not feel that Mr Koschal and I were scientifically trained, we are not, and based solely on Indiana law, he did not allow our testimony. The law in New York State is different. Simon, The following is the wording for the court decision. The decision rendered by Judge Matthew C. Kincad reads as follows in regards to Simon and Koschal " Neither Simon nor Koschal is qualified to render any expert testimony. Evidence rule 702 with all courts abide by also requires that the purported expert be "qualified... by knowledge, skill, experience, training or education." Ind. Evid R. 702(a). Continues with, where an expert's testimony, as here, is based upon the expert’s skill or experience rather than on the application of scientific principles, the proponent of testimony must demonstrate " that the witness poses[es] sufficient skill, knowledge, or experience in the field to assist the trier of fact." McCutchan v. Blanck, 846 N.E.2d 256, 261 (Ind. Ct. App.2006. Neither Simon Nor Koschal Posses Sufficient skill, knowledge or experience in the fields in which they were asked to render opinions. Care to explain how New York law is different? I think most if not all will agree that no matter how you slice this pie the conclusion is obvious and is stated very well by Judge Kincad, Neither Simon Nor Koschal Posses Sufficient skill, knowledge or experience in the fields in which they were ask to render opinions. We look forward to your response. SIGEXPORT

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02-17-2008, 05:09 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaAnd yet Mr. Simon passed HBO's test with flying colors and your boy The Donald failed to get a single one right.

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02-17-2008, 05:41 PM

Posted By: soliriBretta, First of all who said the items were bad. Jaffe, there's a creditable soucre. The HBO program was done for one persons benefit, Jaffe's. As far as the post you responded to, that was done to clarify the information that Simon posted with regards to the Daniels case. Nothing more. Has nothing to do with HBO, everything to do with correcting mis information. soliri

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02-17-2008, 05:52 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaMr. Soliri, the items were taken straight from the FBI's warehouse of goods seized from the forgery ring. I have a question for you, why won't any of the major sports auction houses use Frangipani or Morales to authenticate their autographs?

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02-17-2008, 07:28 PM

Posted By: soliri Dan Bretta, Are you implying that every item in the FBI's warehouse is a forgery? That’s a pretty bold statement to make considering nobody will ever no the truth. Marino's were good but not that good. Even Jaffe stated that Marino could not do Williams very well. So does that mean every Williams piece in the warehouse is a forgery. I wonder what other signature he did not do well. Maybe thats why they purchased good items from dealers around the country. Put the good with the bad and take credit for doing them all. That would be my guess. As to the auction houses, what is the big deal? The auction house authentication is no more than a cursory review. The companies that do this work hide behind disclaimers. Are you saying that in order to be an expert you have to be accepted by the auction houses? soliri

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02-17-2008, 08:15 PM

Posted By: Dan Bretta*Marino's were good but not that good* Good enough to get past Frangipani every single time.

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02-17-2008, 08:36 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosMr. Solis, I think Mr. Bretta is trying to say that the auction houses have a lot to lose by accepting poorly-executed "authentications". Some auction houses (including mine) guarantee the material that they offer; we guarantee ours for life. If and when they consult experts, they have to be careful who they choose - pick a lousy "expert", and somewhere down the road, the piece will be returned, the auction house has to refund the sale price, and the consignor is probably long gone, sitting on the beach Ipanema. I would bet that you guarantee the material you sell - don't you make every effort to be certain that your source is legitimate and that the signature is authentic? I don't know about you, but I wouldn't buy anything from an auction house that undertakes only "cursory" examinations of the material it offers. Anyway, auction houses like that don't last. Why? Because they end up selling crappy fakes, copping out through the use of disclaimers ("Our material has been certified by XYZ Forensics and is therefore not subject to return..."), customers wise up and as the word spreads, bidders bail out. BTW You can address me as P-A-N-A-G-O-P-U-L-O-S, but "Bill" will take a lot less typing!

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02-17-2008, 08:40 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosFurther to the list I posted yesterday of non-baseball signatures, I did a little more research today and made a few more phone calls. Here are some more of the MANY non-sports personalities that Christopher Morales has recently certified as authentic through "in person forensic examination": The Doors, Janis Joplin, Traveling Wilburys, Pink Floyd (with Syd Barrett), Lynyrd Skynyrd, Queen, Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, AC/DC (with Bon Scott), U2, Buddy Holly and the Crickets, The Beach Boys, The Mamas and Papas, Leslie Howard, Amelia Earhart, Vivien Leigh, Audrey Hepburn, Jackie Kennedy, Emmett Dalton, Herman Melville, F. Scott Fitzgerald, John Dillinger, Howard Hughes, Judy Garland, Alfred Hitchcock, Jimmy Stewart, Grace Kelly, James Dean, The Marx Brothers, Laurel & Hardy, The 3 Stooges, Lon Chaney, Greta Garbo, Humphrey Bogart, etc., ad nauseum. Many of the rock ‘signed’ items Mr. Morales has ‘authenticated’ are album covers signed on the front, the most desirable items by far. According to the recognized experts in the rock autograph world, many of whom have been in the field for over twenty years, some of these signed albums are INCREDIBLY RARE! Indeed, some of these experts have NEVER SEEN some of these signed albums before in their entire careers. I have obtained a consensus from five experts and am able to set forth below the absolute rarest signed rock LP's in existence, based on the total number of authentic examples that have appeared at auction and which have changed hands privately over the last thirty years: The Doors (with Jim Morrison) – less than five The Who (with Keith Moon) – no more than five Led Zeppelin (with John Bonham) – no more than five The Allman Brothers (with Duane Allman) – less than five Lynyrd Skynyrd (with deceased members) – less than five, more likely about three Jimi Hendrix – no more than five (believe it or not!) Janis Joplin – less than five The Beatles U.S. issue LP covers – no more than ten Traveling Wilburys (with Roy Orbison) – two Pink Floyd (with Syd Barrett) – no known examples AC/DC (with Bon Scott) - no more than three Mr. Morales, how many signed album covers with these artists have you certified as "authentic"? The people who have been in the business for a quarter century have seen scores of examples of the above albums enter the market accompanied by your certifications. Some of these albums are being sold on the web, and in high-rent galleries with glossy catalogs, in multiple quantities, for an awful lot of money. Yet, like the baseball material you have certified for C.C, your rock and Hollywood material also usually sells for a fraction of what most authentic examples fetch. We wonder where your clients are finding these incredibly rare and important collectibles that have never been on the market before, in such quantities... Do you have six exemplars of Syd Barrett's signature? I personally have none, zilch, zero - and I would never even think about selling a Pink Floyd signed album without having real experts with a pile of exemplars check it out. Do you have exemplars of Bon Scott from AC/DC? I don't have a single one - wouldn't even know where to find one. How did you find enough examples to competently work from? Again, I wouldn't ever offer a signed album without rock solid provenance and a flock of experts giving me the green light. . Mr. Morales - in light of everything that's been said above, and in light of your silence on the dozens of allegations that have been made here, I would consider whether I should return to G.W.U....and get a degree in optometry.

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02-17-2008, 09:24 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeBill, you forgot Charlie Chaplin, Rudy Valentino, ,Sinatra,Monroe and just for fun,the Dead with Jerry and Mydland. I do have to admit that we are only picking on Morales. I am sure by tomorrow someone will have a list of the STAT boys many impossible authentications. It was edited because he mentioned the Marx Brothers.

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02-18-2008, 07:36 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonLooks like Mr Morales might have some baseball exemplars but I would love to see how he got the Rock and Roll exemplars. Bill seems to have done some interesting research about the Rock and Roll autograph business and it will be interesting to see Mr Morales' response to Bill's statistics. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-18-2008, 08:38 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosFurther my posts above, here are a few dealers and galleries that use or have used Mr. Christopher Morales' services as an authenticator for the material they sell (I couldn't find a single site advertising their use of STAT as authenticators): Coach's Corner Auctions, Souderville, Pa. Rock Star Gallery, Scottsdale, Az., ELEVEN signed Beatles albums, one AC/DC with Bon Scott, and Jimi Hendrix. In their description of one of the Hendrix signed albums, they note: "There were only six Hendrix albums that were autographed". Rock Star Gallery offers four of them! Many other signed albums, photos, etc. and memorabilia. American Royal Arts - Southern Florida - five walk-in galleries, said to be expanding. Believed to be in litigation with Beatles expert Frank Caiazzo over Caiazzo's condemnation of a Morales-approved Beatles-signed album. Offer multiple Beatles signed albums, Presley, Marley, etc. Signature Dreams.com , Dallastown, Pa. - (Michael Leppo) Sports autographs Starmarks.net, Naples, Fl. - Rock autographs including a Beatles signed guitar $99,900 and signed "Help!" album $19,900, among others. Touched by the Stars - Five galleries in Florida (but no contact information available on their website). They use STAT and Morales, also Spence and PSA, all apparently for a small amount of lower-end material. Picked out two presidential autopens or printed sigs. (STAT-authenticated), but nothing awful here. Can anyone add names to the list? I'd like to assemble an exhaustive list.

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02-18-2008, 09:13 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeGenuine autograph of JOE DiMAGGIO* on an 8x10 old time photocopy This item has been pre-scanned by Mr. Chris Morales... Mr. Morales is a former Secret Service Agent with 20 years of real world experience in this field, with a double Masters from George Washington University .including one in Forensic Science......There is no one in the industry with this high of credentials and experience or background....... He was featured in Sports Collectors Digest...."Authenticating the Authenticator's" and has appeared on numerous TV documentaries including HBO....He is a "Court and Board Certified Forensic Authenticator"... and is recognized as such in any court... Mr. Morales can offer his services to complete a hands on examination of this item in his lab for $35.00 per signature plus shipping....We can help arrange this...If for some reason the item would not pass we would reimburse the entire transaction...Shipping charge for your purchase is $3.50 for any amount of cards....$8.50 for Hats and Balls......and 12.50 and up for Bats depending on weight... Item must be paid in 7 days after auction closes... Cashiers Check, Money Order or Personal Check...Paypal or any Major Credit Card is acceptable. Insurance is optional and available for purchases up to $50.00....Purchases over $50.00 will be insured by the seller to protect both parties. As is.. the item comes with a cert and hologram from our webstore at www.SignatureDreams.com ....this cert guarantees authenticity and applies a money back guarantee to the buyer for 30 days after the sale.....We will also include any documentation that was aquired with the item if possible...We will only accept third party opinions from a "Certified Authenticator" Just found this from the same company. Mr. Morales can and will testify as an expert in any court of law as to the authenticity of this item if the item is ever claimed to be questionable by any of the other so called "non certified opinionators"...(PSA/DNA..GAI...JSA...etc). Item will be accompanied by a registered and notarized legal document from Mr. Morales

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02-18-2008, 09:25 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeMr Solis - still hiding behind your phony name on here I see. At least I have the guts to let everyone know who I am. Do you even dare to admit who you really are? Who your forensic partners are in that laughable company of yours, (anybody ever seen a COA from them?, anybody ever seen a rejection letter from Frangipani or Morales?). Why are you embarrassed to post the fact that the Donald is your partner (that is so funny that you removed that web page from your site showing Donald, Mr Morales, etc). That page just vanished into thin air. Does the incompetent Donald know that you are embarrassed by him to the extent that you won't even tell the public that he is part of your company? I was wondering what AUTOGRAPH cases Donald has ever testified to in court or been deposed about? The Donald also seems confused about whether or not Mr Morales is his partner as seen in his SCD interview with Rocky. Partner, protege, none of the above, all of the above? I had to laugh a lot when I read the response you posted about me. First you say, sarcastically, "Jaffe, there's a creditable source" Then in another post you quote me directly by saying Marino was bad on Ted Williams. First I am not a creditable source then I am. MAKE UP YOUR MIND <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. The HBO show was for my benefit? Another good one. I was not paid one cent to help HBO. My name was not even mentioned. I wanted to show the collecting world what your partner and other authenticators skills were. I wanted to show collectors the quality of their work.I wanted to show people that a COA from Forensic experts meant Watch Out. Guess I kind of succeeded. 0-7 for the Donald, and he admits on the air how he makes so many mistakes. The worst Michael Jordan forgery I have ever seen and Donald and Morales liked it, they really liked it <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Even the incompetents at STAT got that one right. You were sort of right about one thing. The FBI warehouse did contain some authentic items. About 95% of the items in the warehouse were bogus. But there was some Upper Deck and Mounted Memories, and a few others in the warehouse that were authentic. These items were eventually returned to their owners or given to charity auctions. I guarantee, and promise everyone here that every item sent to all the authenticators in the HBO show where bogus. All of the authenticators got at least one item correct EXCEPT FOR THE DONALD AND MR. MORALES. I am willing to put up any amount of money as a bet if you think you can prove differently. You continue to call me out but when you do that you are also calling out the FBI and Tim Fitzsimmons liars.. The Donald himself admitted that he examined 475 items for me. Every item I sent to him was bogus. Every item I sent to him came from a known FORGER. He gave out a COA for every single one. 0-475, that is probably the most incredible statistic in this entire thread. No wonder you are embarrassed about being his partner. When I look at that I can understand why you removed that web page from your site that showed him as part of your company. Too bad the board cannot go to your website and see that page. A point of information that all of you should know. While Mr. Solis keeps concentrating on Marino, there were other forgers out there. Some of them did a very good Ted Williams. These guys included David Tabb, Mike Moses, Mike Lopez and Angelo Marino. Another forger (possibly a friend of yours Rich?) supplied many items to B&J, to Madison Sports , to Shop At Home and other operators. In the SCD interview, the Donald claimed that he always used exemplars when examining autographs. Yet on the HBO show the undercover reporter walked into his office and immediately got a thumbs up on seven forgeries, without Donald looking at exemplars even once. A virtual COA machine, that Donald. 0-7 on national television, way to go! I actually cracked up when the Donald warned the reporter to be careful out there when buying autographs. That was really too funny. I can just watch that part of the show over and over. In wrapping this up Rich, I just wanted to point to one last remark of yours that pertains to Richard Simon. You said some stupidity about Indiana law vs. NY law. Well there are 50 different laws in this country, covering experts in court. Guess you could not figure that one out. Ya know, 50 states = 50 different laws. This leads me to repeat an earlier question I asked. When has the Donald ever testified in court or or gave a deposition about an autograph case?? Actually I know the answer, but let us see if you are honest enough to admit to it. Oh by the way, do you remember you and your friend coming to the table at the New Jersey National and all of us laughing at the garbage he showed us. Have a good day Rich, I know I will.

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02-18-2008, 09:51 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosWhat the devil is a "Certified Authenticator?" Does DeVry Institute or some other correspondence school offer those degrees? Is STAT certified? Gee, I wish I was certified...

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02-18-2008, 09:56 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonBill - I am here to grant your wish: poof> you are certified. No thanks necessary. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-18-2008, 09:56 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeIf anyone of you think that CC is bad you have to go to this site. <a href="http://www.proxybid.com/asp/catalog.asp?aid=10897" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.proxybid.com/asp/catalog.asp?aid=10897</a> Look who authenticated the items and the prices that they went for.

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02-18-2008, 10:08 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonWow! A baseball signed by: the following Presidents: Bill Clinton, Lyndon B. Johnson, JFK, George Bush Sr, Jimmy Carter, Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, and Gerald Ford. This did not have any COA, but it achieved a high bid of $300 and did not sell according to the website. This piece should be in the Smithsonian or HOF and I am sure (John <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ) that the HOF would put this one out. This company also sold, again without a COA, a Ruth-Gehrig cut for the amazing price of $60. Yes $60. There are COA's from Mr Morales scattered through this auction. Take a look. Apparently Proxy Bid runs auctions for companies that are not set up to run their own auctions. This auction is actually for a company called Colbert Auctions. Geez, if this is Stephen Colbert I will be deeply disappointed <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. edited to add this - I just found the rules of this auction company - read this: All items are guaranteed authentic. We will only accept rejection letters from Chris Morales or Stat Authentic. Both companies have the credentials to render an unbiased decision as to the authenticity of autographs. All returns must be accompanied by a rejection letter from one of these two companies only. If you do not agree to these terms, please do not bid on any item in this auction. There are a few reserves, but the majority of the items are being sold without reserve. Good Luck and Happy Bidding! -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-18-2008, 10:12 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosYes, tired. Mr. Morales must be very, very tired. It seems he must be authenticating about 200 lots a month, at least! Between all the stuff at C.C., other auction sites, retail websites, other online stores, walk-in stores and galleries, catalogs, etc., how does he have time to do anything else, let alone travel to sunny Mongolia (or was it Monrovia?). That must explain why we have heard nothing from him.

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02-18-2008, 10:25 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonDoes anyone on this board, reading this thread, have a rejection letter from STAT or Mr Morales or Mr Frangipani. If so, please e mail it to me. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-18-2008, 10:46 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaCertainly some of you industry insiders have contacts with the FBI. Why is a case not being made here? These guys are ruining your industry/hobby.

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02-18-2008, 10:47 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonThis comes from the Signature Dreams website in describing a photo for sale, it seems they use the same description for all of their autographed photos. "Genuine autograph of MONTE IRVIN on a MLB PHOTO FILE 8x10 with COA. This item has been pre-scanned by Mr. Chris Morales..." Mr Morales - What exactly does pre-scanned mean? -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-18-2008, 11:33 AM

Posted By: David DavisMr. Morales has listed on his resume the International Homicide Investigators Association. Turns out it is a real organization. Also turns out that Mr. Morales was not listed as an attendee at their 2007 symposium. Maybe he was setting up a forensic lab on Atlantis, or Pompeii. It's strange how someone who belongs to such a prestigious and seemingly law abiding organziation, with so many active law enforcement memebers, is either the biggest idiot on the planet, or has a brass set the size of a classroom globe. Don't go swimming with the sharks, Chris 'ol chum. For all who have contributed to this post that had involvement in the HBO special (Richard, Shelly, etc.), does anyone still have a contact number for Tim Fitzsimmons? Why have you guys not contacted him about a follow up on the forgery market? It seems as bad as ever. As far as his Morales' certs are concerned, I would be careful. Without a picture of the item, he could say that the item he approved is not the one being sold with the cert. Even with that, no one who certifies autographs for a living, be it "forensically", or otherwise, could have such a huge authentic rate pass by his office. Bill, you can add www.rs-sportscollectibles.com to your list. They are listed as a link on the Donald's web site. I am no expert, but the Mays hat on the home page looks bad to me.

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02-18-2008, 11:48 AM

Posted By: 1880nonsports"If for some reason the item would not pass we would reimburse the entire transaction..."

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02-18-2008, 11:52 AM

Posted By: Richard S. Simonthat is mr. solis' company, aka soliri -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-18-2008, 11:53 AM

Posted By: LarryWho is responsible for this website and wrote all this stuff? Found it when I entered Richard Simon's name in a web search: <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/tv/yankeefan/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.angelfire.com/tv/yankeefan/</a>

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02-18-2008, 11:55 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonIt is surely an ally of Frangipani. not a shred of truth in it. getting attacked by an incoherent, ANONYMOUS jerk like that is a badge of honor. written by a totally ANONYMOUS author,, it was posted 8 years ago, not long after i started my autograph alert web page stories about forensic authenticators. i could start a website on angelfire that says Lincoln was a Communist spy. It would stay up forever also. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-18-2008, 12:27 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonIf the readers of this thread want to read more about the autograph business, go to my web page - Autograph Business News and Notes at: www.richardsimonsports.com/hofauto2.htm enjoy. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-18-2008, 12:58 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosRichard, I couldn't help the ironic fact that the bottom of that web page has an ad for Jim Spence's authentication services!

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02-18-2008, 01:02 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonBill - that is funny. Since angelfire is a free web space, they place google ads on the website. Free web space and anonymous author = worthless information. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-18-2008, 01:18 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeDavid, I have been in contact with Tim since this thread started. I emailed him the other day to ask about Solis comment that Tim knows about forged Donald coa's and that he had visited the Donald's office before the HBO show. Will post the comments when I hear from him. That is Tim Fitzsimmons the FBI agent we have mentioned on this site. When I did talk to Tim last he had a very good suggestion. The quickest way to get results is your local District Attorney, Consumer Affairs Dept, and the State Attorney Generals Office. They will get the ball rolling. When they see that this is a problem going from state to state then the FBI will get into the act. He feels that the more people that go after this scum the quicker the results. He is not just talking CC but the Gallery's, Internet Auction houses and anyone selling these items. It really is time to kick some butt.

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02-18-2008, 01:20 PM

Posted By: MikeRichard: I just checked your website and the Fox TV report showing JSA ( James Spence) Company authenicating autographs. The more I see on here the more you can not trust anyone of these so called " auto experts " ! They are all opinions and some market better than others. I still don't know who does the best job. I think if I sent a Beatles album signed by all 4, that some of these companies would automatically say it is "fake" and others would automatically say it looks "real". Is one better than the other for saying "fake" or "real" to everything ?

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02-18-2008, 01:28 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonMike - I don't know of any authentication company that will say fake to everything. As for any authenticating company that says pass to everything, well you have to decide that for yourself. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-18-2008, 01:53 PM

Posted By: David DavisI e-mailed the President of the IHIA (see my post above). If everything is on the up and up as far as Mr. Morales' membership, good standing within that community, etc., well then more power to him. I feel that if his work for law enforcement is successful, then by all means he should continue his illustrious career, making everyone a little safer in the process. What we don't need, is everyone becoming poorer in this process, due to his unsubstantiated, and highly questionable, authentication skills. I will let anyone know if I hear from them, or perhaps the President of IHIA will contribute to this post himself. I should add that all I did was indicate that someone that states on his resume that he is a member of your organization has come under some scrutiny. I gave him links to this forum, and thread.

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02-18-2008, 01:55 PM

Posted By: Mike NavarroJust found this forum a few days ago and have been reading through some posts. I collect primarily historical autographs and have a lot of experience in this field. I just wanted to give some credit to some of the good guys in the autograph industry. I would recommend and would not hesitate to deal with any of the following. Richard Simon - I have bought numerous pieces from him over the years including Humphrey Bogart and a few signed Neil Alden Armstrong items. Have never had a problem with any of his items. I did have him authenticate a Ty Cobb ball for authentication one time and it did not pass, but subsequently passed PSA/DNA. If anything, he is too conservative in his authentication, and if an authenticator is going to err, I would prefer it be on the conservative side. Good guy who in my opinion does a little too much self promotion. (so I wlll help and promote him here <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ) Bill Panagopulos - I have bought numerous pieces through his auction house Alexander Autographs including Edison, Hancock, Sam Houston, multiple signed US Presidents, etc., and have never had a problem with any of the pieces I bought. I have also sold and consigned a lot including Einstein, Nixon, and others and have always been paid on time and dealt with fairly. His historical knowledge seems to be very good. I don't buy any of the sports autographs in his catalog, so no experience on his pieces in that realm. Bill is a good guy and when he makes errors (like the Reagan facsimile letter that graced the cover of one of his catalogs) he stands up and admits them and makes it right. One of the good guys in the industry. Bob Eaton - Bob runs R&R Enterprises and also authenticates for PSA/DNA. I have bought and sold a ton through them, and even sold a complete run of US Presidents in his April 05 auction and he gave me an entire section "The Mike Navarro collection". I have found his integrity to be great and he does not hesitate to tell you if he thinks an item is not authentic, even if you have been a six figure customer. I have seen some bad pieces in his catalogs, but with the vast amount that go to auction every month, there will be some mistakes made. I trust Bob greatly. John Reznikoff - John runs University Archives and also authenticates for PSA/DNA. I have bought and sold a ton through him and we occasionally partner on items. Very interesting person with a zeal for historical. Once again, due to the vast numbers, he does occasionally make mistakes (like everyone of us, we are all human) but he is another that I trust completely. Now on the flipside and back to the subject at hand, I have seen numerous pieces purported to be authenticated by Frangipanni or Morales and the overwhelming majority of them have been obvious fakes. I have purchased an authentic item that had a COA from Frangipanni as well, a six Presidents signed photo that I subsequently sold to Reznikoff, so not every one of the pieces that Frangipanni authenticated are bad. Just use common sense in your autograph purchases and you should do fine. Happy collecting, Mike Navarro

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02-18-2008, 02:11 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonMike - thanks for the kind words (I think) <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. Funny you should talk about self promotion. A few years ago, several of my friends and clients in this business said I should be promoting myself more, get my name out there more, that I was not known well enough yet. Well, now I am told that I am doing that too much. I will try to achieve a happy medium <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-18-2008, 02:19 PM

Posted By: Mike NavarroRichard, You are welcome. Regarding the self promotion, just having a little fun with ya, keep up the good work, I'm a local politician here in Texas so I subscribe to the theory of self promotion!!! Mike

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02-18-2008, 02:22 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosThanks for the plug, Mike. Of course, we go back quite a ways (I'll forgive you for not giving me that collection!). Meantime, I've been added to the "hate mail" Hall of Fame. I'm so proud. Sent this by some cretin at Imoguspar@aol.com: "You really seem to be enjoying the pissing match with the pompous ass and his jailbird buddy. When you wrestle with a skunk you end up smelling like one and right know your aroma is pretty putrid. Clean up your own act first and ask Simple about some of those posts on angelfire. As is his style, he arrogantly dismisses it out of hand and calls it a badge of honor. Some honor! You 3 deserve each other". My response: Dear Uraretard@aol.com, You, Sir, are a poltroon - a coward- afraid to open a simple dialogue with me, even privately via email. But for the record, chew on this. a.) I do business with neither Mr. Simon nor Mr. Jaffe. Never have, and likely never will. They sell baseball, I sell history. b.) Re: "wrestling with skunks", you're right. I AM wrestling with skunks. I've been talking about them on this forum for days now. And yes, everything those forensic guys do stinks. Makes me want to take a shower. Pew. c.) Sorry, didn't read all the stuff on angelfire. Don't have the time, it's seven years old, and right now I've got fish to fry. When Mr. Simon becomes a board-certificed forensic examiner, then perhaps I'll take a look. d.) And no, we don't deserve each other. I'm far too mean a guy. Didn't even get my wife a lousy Valentine's Day present. And...I smell bad. Sonny, grow some, come out of the closet and show your mug...or else just clam up.

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02-18-2008, 02:25 PM

Posted By: David DavisMike, What you state about common sense is true. However, everyone who reads this forum, and has read this thread, is aware of the issues in the autograph industry. It is the people that are unaware, such as your average tourist passing a gallery selling Morales "authenticated" items, and the collectors who purchase from Coach's Corner that we need to protect.

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02-18-2008, 02:36 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonTo Bill - you won't see me becoming a forensic examiner anytime soon <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. To David - your post above mine is dead on. To Shelly and all readers - Contacting local authorities is the way to go in many of these instances. The DA in Nassau County, NY was very vigorous in pursuing businesses that sold forgeries as was the NYC Dept of Consumer Affairs. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-18-2008, 02:47 PM

Posted By: rich solisBill Panagopulos, Dan Bretta, Mr. Panagoplos, For the most part I agree with everything you wrote. But contrary to the statement about auction houses like that don't last, some do. Many if not all of the major auction houses use third party authenticators. Would it surprise you to learn that the lead authenticator from PSA admitted that cursory review is done for auction houses? Would it also surprise you that PSA hides behind a disclaimer? The information that is presented here is in part documented in a sworn deposition as well as from own PSA submission from, 4. Certification and authentication involves an individual judgment that is subjective and requires the exercise of professional opinion, which can change from time to time. Therefore, PSA/DNA makes no warranty or representation and shall have no liability whatsoever to the customer for the opinion rendered by PSA/DNA to any submission. Unlike the stuff written about me I will only provide fact not fiction.

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02-18-2008, 02:51 PM

Posted By: Mike NavarroBill, I am proud as well to join you on that email list, a few minutes after I made my initial post, I got an email from "lmoguspar@aol.com". I attempted to email him/her back, but it bounced so I'll just reply here. Imoguspar@aol.com wrote: Sorry, Bub, but the only thing you got right in your post is that simple simon is a pompous ass. Remember, being a dealer/authenticator is a conlict of interest. I respond: Thanks for your opinion, but there are a lot of things that I got right in my post. Personally, I do not have an automatic problem with someone being both an authenticator AND a dealer. I also do not believe that someone has to have governmental training, IE, FBI training, etc., to be able to render an opinion as to the authenticity of an autograph. Personally, I turned down an offer from the FBI early last year as they had offered me a conditional offer of employment as a Special Agent Perhaps if I had accepted the position, then once I retired, I could have touted that I was a former FBI Special Agent and therefore I should be considered an autograph authentication expert. But, it would not have been the FBI that gave me that skill, it would have been my years of experience in handling and dealing in autographs. Mike "not afraid to put my real name on the internet or in emails" Navarro -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living.

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02-18-2008, 03:00 PM

Posted By: David DavisRich Solis, Sounds to me like a complicated way of saying that they are not liable for conflicting opinions, regarding the sale price of the item. I'm sure they would refund the authentication costs. Unlike them, however, it seems you are more in the business of either authenticating, or selling, things that PSA would object to from the get go. Do not put yourself in a league with PSA authenticators. Even with all of the problems they had with Daniels, etc., they are still a brand name, and have made changes to improve the quality of the work. When people such as myself can tell a forgery from an authentic item, then your days are numbered. Both in the sense of sales, and in having your name on the radar of several agencies of authority, who are probably now thinking that there is clearly a viable issue here, and the livelihoods of honest people to consider. With the number of defense lawyers that read this board, surely you will have no difficulty finding someone familiar with the issue, and sworn not to reveal the endless blather you will provide about knowingly selling fakes, but believing you were covering your backside the whole time. And just like that, you will receive updates on what is happening from your weekly visit and phone calls.

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02-18-2008, 03:03 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeHere's my latest. You are absolutely pathetic.You have no life except posting all day to some how erase the stain of being a convicted felon who thinks he can be vindicated by "saving" what he helped to destroy. Talk about overkill. Who are you trying to kid? So the fox will some how solve the chicken coop problem. Since you apparently don't work, why don't you try to at least get your grammar, syntax (look it up) and spelling up to at least a 6th grade level? But most importantly remember this: Tonight you'll go to bed as a convicted felon and when you wake up you will still be a convicted felon! Erase that "Eddie".

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02-18-2008, 03:25 PM

Posted By: David DavisI paid a close friend $300 for this a few years ago. His grandmother had obtained it in the mail. It looked good to me. I sent it to R&R, and they said they could not authenticate it. It has been with me ever since. As a photo itself it has value. I just tore it so it could never be sold as original. I'd rather eat $300, then see someone get ripped off. <img src=http://www.scauctions.org/c1-1.JPG> <img src=http://www.scauctions.org/c2-1.JPG>

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02-18-2008, 03:25 PM

Posted By: rich solisDavid Davis, Please explain your post.

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02-18-2008, 03:28 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonJust a question for imoguspar because his e mail is blocked,, were you in my second grade class, 2-1, Miss Rabin teacher, PS 6 in the Bronx (if Bob Pomilla is reading this thread he just got a laugh). 6 year old kids always tease each other, so I can vaguely recall someone calling me Simple Simon back then. Are you Milton Anapol???? -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-18-2008, 03:37 PM

Posted By: David DavisWith apologies to the Wachowski Brothers: (train in background) Do you hear that Mr. Solis? That is the sound of a raw nerve being touched. That is the sound of your guilt. Unlike Neo, however, there is no escape for some. It's not me you need to be concerned with; I am nobody for now. I'm just thinking there is still an escape ladder in the hole you have dug. I'd use it.

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02-18-2008, 04:12 PM

Posted By: rich solisHow is siteing from public documents as well as information posted on a submission form digging a hole.

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02-18-2008, 04:18 PM

Posted By: Dan Bretta<a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/?action=view&current=1947_eating_popcorn_and_drinking_be.gif" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/1947_eating_popcorn_and_drinking_be.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

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02-18-2008, 04:20 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosMr. Solis, Just so that I can get my thoughts straight - I know that you sell baseball autographs, but are you also an authenticator? Do you use any authentication service to validate your material? I saw a printout of a website page that indicated you were a partner with Messrs. Frangipani and Morales in an authentication business. I don't care if you were THEN, but are you NOW? Anyway, getting back to auction houses: Much earlier we spelled-out the return policies of a few auction houses so I'm not going to revisit that. If an auction house does NOT guarantee their material, AND relies on authenticators, good or bad, to authenticate their material who in turn do not guarantee authenticity, stating that theirs is just an "opinion"...then it's every man for himself. If you bid, you're on your own with no recourse. Might as well be buying a box of pots and pans at a country auction. A legitimate auction house has to be careful whose certificates they accept, because if they sell 1,000 lots and 750 come back within a few weeks with questions of authenticity, even if they DON'T refund the money, they have a big problem on their hands. In "the good old days" there simply weren't any authenticators. Auction houses stuck to what they knew. They had professional staffs that knew what they were doing and could properly appraise material. Joe's Country Auction's didn't sell Renoir, and Sotheby's didn't sell farm implements (that's why 95% of what we sell is historic autographs). And that's why I wonder why Coach's Corner is selling John Dillinger, jewelry, George Washington, Beatles, and a $40-80,000 original "Picasso" hand-colored drawing (!!!!!!), now bid up to $738. There is no God... So, in essence, if you have a no refund policy and a collaborating auhenticator with impressive credentials, you should be able to sell signatures of Cleopatra, Jesus, Ooga-Booga the Caveman and Santa Claus. I'm in the right business - I'm just not doing it the right way!

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02-18-2008, 04:27 PM

Posted By: rich solisBill, I which it was the good old days. I can't comment on Coaches Corner,i"m not familiar with ther operation. Understand that the post was merely informational.

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02-18-2008, 04:52 PM

Posted By: rich solis Bill, As to your questions. Yes we sell autograph memorabilia. No I do not authenticate our own items. No I do not authenticate. Yes, I have been associated with Mr. Bradley for years until his death late last year. I do have a personal relationship with Mr. Frangipani that dates back to 1999. As for Mr. Morales we have known each other for a few years. All tree especially Mr. Bradley have taught me a great deal. When questions with regards to signatures arise Mr. Bradley was the one we used. With his death we now give our clients different options of forensic examiners and yes Frangipani and Morales are on the list. As a company we have a stated policy that we will only recognize court qualified, board certified forensic examiners. We do not recognize the industry third party authenticators. This is a company policy. Like everyone I have my opinions and others have there’s. The one thing that can be said is that we can agree to disagree in a civil manner. Rich Solis

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02-18-2008, 05:03 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaRich, why would you use Morales and Frangipani knowing that items with their certs will sell for only about 5% of actual value?

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02-18-2008, 05:22 PM

Posted By: DDThe profit margin on an item such as a signed Jack Chesbro ball is immense when the raw material cost is an old baseball, some fountain pen ink, some tea, and an oven. A real Chesbro ball would cost too much to buy.

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02-18-2008, 05:49 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosRich, Appreciate your candor and honesty. Who you choose to use as an authenticator (if anyone) and how you conduct your business is absolutely your own affair. I cannot and will not fault you on it - it's a choice you've made and this is a free country. But I'd bet that somewhere down the road there's going to be a lot of questions asked - and not on some baseball card forum. They'll want to know how so much of this fine material has come on the market so quickly, and been passed with so few questions asked. And I'm not so sure that degrees and certificates will be enough to answer those questions. Anyway, your responses seem straightforward and honest, and thank you again.

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02-18-2008, 05:54 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeDavid, Rich would never understand why you did what you did. If you have a piece of garbage, and it gets into the hands of his friends they will make it into a Picasso.

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02-18-2008, 05:58 PM

Posted By: Rich SolisDan, First let me say I use the forensic examiners because I have confidence in them. As far as value, we sell for example a Mantle autographed 8x10 for $300.00, fair market value according to tuff stuff is $405.00 in average condition. Excellent condition will be higher about $595.00. Keep in mind that everyone has a different opinion on price. For our company and our clients a third party authentication that comes with a disclaimer doesn't warrant an over inflated price. Can we charge more sure we can regardless of the coa. We chose to provide the best possible item at a price the general hobbyist can afford while insuring through forensic examiners the genuiness of the item to the best of their ability. Thats our choice as business owners. Rich Solis

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02-18-2008, 06:01 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeRich, if you sell a forgery it doesn't matter what price you put on it. If it looks like a forgery and smells like a forgery, its a forgery.

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02-18-2008, 06:17 PM

Posted By: Mike NavarroRich Solis, What is the name of your business? Do you have a website where I could view some pics of your inventory? I'm sure I could find it in the hundreds of posts above, but I must have missed it in my cursory review. Thanks, I just want to see for my own eyes some of the images. Mike

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02-18-2008, 06:59 PM

Posted By: Andrew S.David, are you any relation to the autograph collector Rich Davis? He is supposed to own the largest collection of autographs in existence. Even larger than the Luhr's collection, University Archives & Autograph House.

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02-18-2008, 07:27 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffe Why don't you comment on the statements you made about me and HBO. I challenged you and I have yet to see an answer from you on this forum. Is it because you are not able to answer any of my statements because the truth is difficult for you to challenge? (see earlier post for my challenging questions to Mr. Solis). Are you or are you not partners with the Donald in forensicsignatureauthentications.com, a company registered in your wife's name. Was Mr Morales ever part of your company? If not why was he pictured on the page on the website where the staff was shown, along with you, Mr Bradley and the Donald? The page that no longer exists. On the authentication page of your r-s collectibles website you suggest people submit items for authentication to Forensic Signature Authentications, without revealing that it is your company. How could you consider that to be ethical? Is that why your picture is no longer on the site of forensicsignature? Is your wife the authenticator now? You come on here with a phony name and now you come out of the shadows, once your identity is revealed. You claim that the HBO show was about me. Well tell me about all the people that were buying items because of the Donald and his Friends. You are the original "white man speak with forked tongue" guy. I will say this. It took someone like me to make this thread happen. I know where the bodies are buried and know what you and Donald are. You are the one that throws stones so that you look good. Well I am throwing the stones back at you and your Forensic Experts. They are as phony as the signatures they authenticate. Now for the best part. I took a look at the autographs on your website. I know who you are getting your items from, and so does John (Rogers). You are getting them from the same guy that supplied B&J, Madison Sports and Howard's. The same guy who came with you to my table at the Atlantic City National and I laughed at his stuff because it was so bad. After these items were sold to Madison and Howard's they wound up at Shop at Home, American Express, Sky Miles and others who had no idea what they were buying and then selling. I was amused by your statement that: "We do not recognize the industry third party authenticators. This is a company policy." Sotheby's, Christie's, Hunts, Mastro, Heritage and other million dollar auction houses use industry authenticators, but you don't. A little two bit dealer in Palookaville, California thinks he knows more than the leaders in the industry. But I guess the fact that they sell $50 million dollars a year of legitimate autograph items and you probably do $200 a year of legitimate items, well you are just the one to know. Unfortunately I am not good with computers so I asked Richard Simon to upload pictures for me of items from your website that I know are not authentic and that came from the above mentioned person. Anxiously awaiting your reply. Shelly Jaffe

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02-18-2008, 07:32 PM

Posted By: Richard SimonHere are the pictures that Shelly talked about. The only person I know who could have made this thread what it is is Shelly Jaffe. He has more information about this business than anybody else. Guys, fire away with your questions to him, he has the answers. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203300479.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203300377.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203300363.GIF"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203300353.JPG">

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02-18-2008, 07:37 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeI will say that not all of this garbage is from your man but they are still fake. I am sure that john will agree that the mantle and 500 are from you know who.

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02-18-2008, 07:38 PM

Posted By: Richard SimonAttn DD- please repeat your message on this thread. I accidentally started a new thread with the pictures. And you posted after I put up the pictures. That thread will be deleted , so please repost your comment here. Thanks, and sorry for the problem.

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02-18-2008, 07:38 PM

Posted By: ChrisMorales, Frangipani and the other so-called "court certified" experts are put out of business. The first step is Coach's Corner...that operation is about 90% of Morales' business. I've never seen anything "Certified" by these people that had a prayer in heaven of being authentic. Am I in PSA and JSA's court? Yes. Do they make misatakes? Yes. Have they ever authenticated an autopen as genuine? Yes. People make mistakes, no one is perfect. But, tell me then, why are they trusted by every major auction house known to collectors including Sotheby's? Conspiracy? I think not. Try sending anything "certified" by Morales or his cronies to Sotheby's or Mastro and they will probably get a good chuckle and send it right back to you. When someone emails me trying to sell Babe Ruth single signed balls that looked like Ruth penned it last week for $2,000, something is a little fishy don't ya think? Mr. Solis: You sell Mantle 8x10's for $300? Assuming they have "certificates" from Morales, Frangipani, and the like - why would anyone buy them from you? You can easily pick them up through Coaches Corner for under $100, shoot, probably less $75. And, I bet they will give you a bulk discount. Customer: "Uhh...I'll take 100 signed Mantle 8x10's if you have 'em." CC: "Sure, just give us till next week - $50/photo." I can see it now, what a freakin' joke. If it's too good to be true, it probably is. Chris

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02-18-2008, 07:44 PM

Posted By: DDAndrew, If I am, that would put me in a rather unique position. Exemplars aplenty, and a willingness to cooperate. Wouldn't that be something? What I wrote in the other thread was that clearly the Mantle's were all done by the same person, and that they need more practice with a few of the letters.

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02-18-2008, 07:47 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeChris, I want to know if a forensic expert takes a class in braille, because that would be the person to pass the above items.

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02-18-2008, 07:48 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosRich, Just one more thing - A company called Forensic Signature Authentications (which many claim was once staffed by Mr. Frangipani, Mr. Morales, the late Mr. Bradley and yourself), shows the following address on its webste: Forensic Signature Authentications 1159 Scott Blvd. Santa Clara, CA 95050 Office: 408-242-5543 Fax: 408-564-4555 At the same time, it appears that your business, according to your web site, is in the same building: R&S Sports Collectibles 1159 Scott Blvd. Santa Clara, CA 95050 Ph: 408-985-7277 Fax: 408-564-4555 As a matter of fact, you share the same fax machine. Is it therefore safe to assume that you are working on commission for Messrs. Frangipani and Morales? Would it be rude to ask for an explanation? I just find it rather remarkable.

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02-18-2008, 08:00 PM

Posted By: ChrisThe real issue at hand here is Coach's Corner, Morales, and Frangipani, and/or STAT. If this group were shut down, that would be HUGE. Will another bogus "board certified court expert" pop up? Sure, but not without a fight. If these others are led out of town, with some negative press in the papers, only a fool would try the same thing again. Rich is not the problem here. He is one of many dealers selling forgeries, mixed in of course with Mounted Memories and UDA autos to give himself a credible vineer to possible clients. We all know he is not making his money selling the legit stuff.

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02-18-2008, 08:28 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeChris- you have to be kidding me. The problems in the hobby all started with crap like this, dealers with bad material selling their crap to unsuspecting collectors. You can't give this guy Solis a pass, he is promoting garbage with garbage on top of it. More pictures will be coming from his website. You saying that Solis is not the problem is wrong. He is the problem along with all the others. These are the people that made the whole operation work. Without COA's from Frangipani, Morales, Tell, Garo, AAU, FDS, J Dimaggio, CCSA and all the rest of them, this could not have happened to the extent that it did. Please dont say that Solis is not the problem, he and his cohorts keep this crap alive. Rich is the problem he has been from the start. I am looking forward to any law suite that Rich and his buddies want to throw at me. I know who they are and what they are and after ten years they are still out there. Look at the crap on his web site.

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02-18-2008, 08:36 PM

Posted By: ChrisShelly, I'm on your side...no doubt. Rich is part of the effect. I believe the larger dealers like CC and the major "authenticators" like Morales, STAT, etc are the cause. Get rid of the cause first, then people like Rich will have less garbage to sell. That is all I'm saying. I'm not excited if a small time dealer like Rich is gone, while CC is flourishing.

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02-18-2008, 08:36 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeJohn you called out Bill. Now its time to call out Solis site.

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02-18-2008, 08:47 PM

Posted By: rich solisBill, This venture never got off the ground. one reason for that was Mr. Bradley health. As far as the business information being the same for both I felt that it was the best option to begen the new venture. But like I said It never got of the ground.

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02-18-2008, 08:52 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeBill, I have a beautiful piece of land I can sell you.

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02-18-2008, 08:58 PM

Posted By: rich solisChris, Why do you assume that the items that I sell come with coa's from Morales and Frangipani. There only issued by forenic examinors when there is a request otherwise a company coa is issued. The percentage of forensic coa's that are issued are a small percentage.

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02-18-2008, 09:07 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffePlease correct me if I am wrong. I think what Cris was saying is that the only people that you would trust to authenticate your items are the Forensic experts that you hire. If I am wrong please correct me. Since you wont direct an answer to me please direct it to Chris.

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02-18-2008, 09:20 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosAs I said, Rich, how you run your business is...your business. If that forensic authentication venture is no longer viable, I'd certainly take down that website so you don't continue to give the distinct impression of a conflict of interest. Wouldn't you agree? Besides the fact that, if someone responds to the website, what are you going to tell them? Know what I mean?

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02-18-2008, 09:39 PM

Posted By: ChrisRich, My apologies, I assumed many of your items came with these bogus certs. Nonetheless, they are still forgeries I can buy on eBay for a fraction of the price you charge. How do you stay in business when I can by fake Mantle balls for $150 on eBay (unless the auction gets shut down by eBay and PSA) when you sell them for $695? Amazing.

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02-18-2008, 09:55 PM

Posted By: rich solisChris, Thanks for the apology. We can have the debat about forgeies until the cows come home. If I didn't feel these items were real I would not sell them. No one has ever giving me an explaination as to why they are calling these items forgeries. All anyone says is there not real. Explain to me exactly why they are fakes. I'm a reasonable person, if someone can convince me there fake I will remove them from my site. Just don't say there fakes prove it. Rich Solis

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02-18-2008, 09:58 PM

Posted By: PscolgrafsI have a few questions. 1) Mr. Solis. You and Mr. Morales keep harping on the same HBO Fact. That being that there is a possibility that the items in question from the San Diego warehouse were perhaps authentic. Putting that aside, how about explaining how a man you described as "a premier name as far as authentication and one of few who actually had and still has legitimate credentials", manage to pass almost 500 items sent to him from Mr.Jaffe? 2) I know it's quite difficult (like splitting atoms) but I will try and explain the Chaplin photo above. You see, this gentleman obtained a signed Chaplin item and he was told that it was a forgery by a respected auction house. Upon hearing that news, instead of putting it back into the collecting circulation, he ripped it up. Good for you sir. 3) Mr. Morales, you state: "authentications based on scans are worthless" (which I disagree), but you have this thing called a "pre-scan". What in the world is that exactly? 4) Will the cowardly aol user (who blocks replies) please send me random childlike nonsense. It will amuse me. Final note: Creating an exemplar collection is easy and shouldn't even be part of the debate. You (any authenticator) could have the world's best exemplar collection and still do a s--tty job...either on purpose, or because you don't know what you are doing.

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02-18-2008, 10:03 PM

Posted By: ChrisThat's all they are Rich. Like I said before, if it is too good to be true, it usually is. Submit your 94 World Series Mantle balls to any major auction house, aside from CC, and they will not touch them with a ten foot pole. Case closed. If I want to buy a fake Mantle balls like the ones you have, I will just go to CC and pick 'em up for $150-$200. You do not have a leg to stand on my friend.

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02-18-2008, 10:18 PM

Posted By: FGNSolis, Can you simply explain to us why certs from your buddy Donald (along with those of STAT, Morales or any other of Coach's flavor of the month authenticators) seem to doom an autoraph to sell for a mere fraction of its market value. Once that question is answered we can lock this thread up and call it a day. Somehow I think we got a ways to go before that happens. On the other hand I guess it allows you to continue your philanthropic approach to selling autographs. ('We chose to provide the best possible item at a price the general hobbyist can afford while insuring through forensic examiners the genuiness of the item to the best of their ability. Thats our choice as business owners.'). Just laughable.

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02-18-2008, 10:19 PM

Posted By: DDRich, That Williams/Dimaggio signed piece on your site is a joke. Your site also indicates it comes with a COA from R&S collectibles. Who signs them? I recommend not having the enlarge feature for your photos; it clearly shows the obvious problems on each name. Perhaps a new forger is in order. I hear they do wonderful things these days with autopens. The following is a brief work of fiction of a possible future.By the way, I'd be careful about those forgers; maybe one of them is smart enough that they learned how to forge your name as well. Imagine some document unknown to you being admitted into court. Rich - "Your honor, that is not my signature." Judge - "Well Mr. Solis, according to forensic document examiner, Rich Lemorass (rather anagramish type of guy), it is your signature, and you did order 3,000 Ted Williams signed photos on 10/13/2006. What the court fails to understand is why you indicated the blank photos were enclosed?

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02-18-2008, 11:06 PM

Posted By: Sean COne quick question regarding this post ================================== rich solis (Login sigexpert) question 1 February 17 2008, 11:47 PM Bill, This venture never got off the ground. one reason for that was Mr. Bradley health. As far as the business information being the same for both I felt that it was the best option to begen the new venture. But like I said It never got of the ground. =================================== If the venture never got off the ground, then why do you have articles on your own site signed with your name, your store's name, and FSA's name? <a href="http://store.rs-sportscollectibles.com/derekjeter1.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://store.rs-sportscollectibles.com/derekjeter1.html</a> From the bottom of the article: We hope that this will begin to help your understanding of the process required to complete a thorough evaluation of any signature. Please contact us with any questions you might have at info@1fsa.com or visit us on the web at www.ForensicSignatureAuthentications.com. Sincerely Rich Solis R&S Sports Collectibles Forensic Signature Authentications Copyright © 2006 – R&S Sports Collectibles. All Rights Reserved

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02-19-2008, 04:16 AM

Posted By: SCThe thread still has some amusement value in a warped sense, like staring at the aftermath of a train wreck. The simplest fact remains that, the defenders of these "allegedly" fake autographs will not put their money where their mouth is. Until then, I have no respect for them. If they truly believed these items were real - buy them! I know a dozen people that will hand me a check for $50,000 to buy out the next CC auction with the promise of the same items being in Mastro et al in 90 days. Heck, you can probably cherry pick $5000 worth of stuff and get a 1000% return on it. There's no question that PSA/DNA, JSA, Lelands, Simon, and every other dealer/authenticator in this business has made mistakes, ranging from trivial to serious. If nothing else, the idea of seeing a major catalog auction with thousands of signatures authenticated in group lots, tells me that corners have been cut. No different than PSA, SGC, GAI, etc. The value of the reputation is in what level of confidence you have in their overall accuracy and integrity. If they are right 99% of the time, great. 80%...not good. 50%...I'm just as well using a dart board. For the authenticators out there, and I know this is a loaded question...have there been forgers good enough to make a perfect copy of a signature?

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02-19-2008, 06:00 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonTo answer SC's question as best as I can -"have there been forgers good enough to make a perfect copy of a signature?" The skills of forgers have varied widely. The "business of forgery" probably started with a few of the "very early" guys - Ron -----, Dave --------- (I have been told that these two are deceased but I am not 100% certain of that) and Danny Dubcek. Their efforts were rather primitive. The first two I mentioned basically just tried to forge signature cuts, until Ron ----- found a cache of B&W Hall of Fame plaks in a Cooperstown gift shop. The light went on for him and he thought he had found an excellent vehicle for forgeries. He cleared about $100K on that deal. 3 dealers were duped into being the primary buyers, one of whom I believe has passed away. As far as I know these 3 forgers worked on the East Coast, and were the "birth parents" of the forged sports autograph business, thus my familiarity with them. The skills of these 3 were limited at best. The forgery business evolved over the years, Shelly knows the history of that better than I do. Many more skillful forgers have risen up out of the muck since. It is really not possible to say that any of them have ever produced perfect signatures, but as you have stated we have all been fooled. Some of the forgers are much better than others. If anyone claims that they have been 100% right all the time, well they are just lying. All of those who buy, sell and authenticate have made mistakes. The learning curve for authenticators and dealers never stops. We just try to stay ahead of the bad guys as best as we can. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-19-2008, 08:06 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosThere are two very important points being missed in this discussion: 1.) FOR THE FIRST TIME, RESPECTED AUTHENTICATORS ARE COMING UNDER LEGAL ATTACK BY THOSE WHO USE FORENSIC EXAMINERS Frank Caiazzo, is an expert in Beatles autographs with about thirty years of experience to his credit. Beatles - that's all he does - Beatles. No Doors, no Hendrix, no Stones, just Beatles. He's consulted with Christie's, Bonham's, and God knows how many other auction houses and collectors worldwide. His certificates add value to autographs - as a matter of fact, it's hard to sell Beatles material to knowledgeable collectors without a Caiazzo certificate. As we know, Caiazzo is being sued by "American Royal Arts Corp, a Foreign corporation" for condemning a signed Beatles album which they attempted to sell with...a Morales certificate. Their website makes no secret of their using Mr. Morales as their prime examiner. I'm not saying that the example in dispute was a forgery - but I certainly find it frightening to note that a legitimate, world-respected authenticator is being sued by a firm that relies on Mr. Morales' efforts. One more thing: the lawsuit, found at www.frankcaiazzolawsuit.com/?gclid=CPqy74yAzpECFQFflwodOWsZ4A asserts that it is "...unfair and deceptive for Caiazzo to represent...that he can make such conclusive findings or even conclude that an item is or is not authentic by simply looking at a scan image..." Well, that statement is fifty percent bullsh_t. I've sold 40,000 some odd lots of autographs over the years, and I've seen tens of thousands of scans of material offered for sale. The fact is: no, you cannot say something is AUTHENTIC from a scan, because no matter how "good" the signature looks, you still have to look for printed signatures, paper type, stops and starts, ink type, etc, etc. That's why "quick opinions" that something is AUTHENTIC aren't entirely reliable. HOWEVER! You absolutely, positively, without a doubt can detect a poorly executed fake from scan. Maybe that's what Caiazzo did? For the record, I have never paid Caiazzo a single penny, nor has he ever paid me a penny. 2.) THE WHACK-A-MOLE THEOREM Ever play "Whack-a-Mole" - the carnival game where a mole pops up, you hit him on the head with a hammer, and as soon as you do, another one pops up? Well, the forensic examiner business is a lot like that. Seems that after "Operation Bullpen", Mr. Frangipani disappeared into the background and Mr. Morales came to the fore. If Mr. Morales decides to retire, there's likely a dozen board-certified forensic examiners waiting to take his place. If indeed Mr. Morales is signing off on a lot of forgeries (!), the only way to end that flood of forgeries is to find the forgers. And that, with just a little effort, is easy: Federal, state and local investigations, civil actions, class action lawsuits, the list goes on and on. The target should be the FORGERS, not the "authenticators"!! This should get very interesting...very quickly.

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02-19-2008, 08:19 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeI agree that the forgers should be caught. I do not agree with the idea its not the authenticators fault. They are the ones that make the forgery acceptable. The idea is to go after both. That way you kill the fish from the top down and the bottom up.

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02-19-2008, 08:22 AM

Posted By: Chris<a href="http://tinyurl.com/35p4e8" target="_new">http://tinyurl.com/35p4e8</a> VA seems to have a lot of forgeries, no? And, a little place in Jersey... Chris edited to add: This link was too long so I made it into a tinyurl...the link was for an out of date auction, but I made the tinyurl anyway to keep from having to scroll left to right to read this very long thread. Thanks, Dan

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02-19-2008, 08:30 AM

Posted By: brian-"have there been forgers good enough to make a perfect copy of a signature?" there is no such thing as a perfect copy because even the celebrity cannot make a perfect uniform copy of his own signature. Only autopens and stamps can do that. Even authentic signature examples of the same person will vary subtly, although there will always be several unwavering characteristics that can be used to earmark authenticity. However, when comparing authentic signatures from different decades or eras, authentic signatures by the same person can change so much over time that the characteristics are completely opposite from each other, such as a change in slant from left to right, etc.

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02-19-2008, 08:39 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeOne other thing comes to mind. Why a gallery owner who has been in business for over ten years has no idea of what a Beatles album goes for. If I am correct and please if I am not, correct me. I think an autographed album goes for around $50,000 to $75,000. I just don't understand how an owner of such a valuable piece would loose $36,000 plus dollars. If you guys have not read the law suite the selling price was $14,000. The other point I want to make is from what I have read there are only 20 to thirty Beatles autographed albums known to be out there. I wonder how many Morales and STAT have authenticated over the last five years. I would also be interested in how many the Gallery in Florida sold.

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02-19-2008, 09:15 AM

Posted By: DDRich Simon, Ron ----- is dead. A sad case really. I knew him back in the days of the Golden Gate shows in NY. It was entertaining at first when he would show us how he could sign Pete Rose's name. I was 14 at the time, and had no idea about fake autographs. There were always ballplayers at these shows. Years later when you hear about him in the context of selling forgeries, it came as no surprise. He was always a heavy guy, and died young. Ron was a funny SOB. One time, he had a wrestler scheduled to appear, and the guy flaked on him. Ron took it in stride and told everyone the guy couldn't make it because there were no flights leaving from Parts Unknown that day. Good times, before he succumbed to the dark side.

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02-19-2008, 09:24 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosShelly, Beatles signed albums (authentic) are generally selling at auction for around $75,000, up. Itsonlyrocknroll.com sold one about a year ago for, if I'm not mistaken, around $100,000+. So, if the gallery albums ARE authentic AND my auction and sales records are correct, $14,000 or so for a signed Beatles album is a flat out steal. Again, my information is that there have been less than ten U.S.-issued band-signed Beatles albums ever seen. According to offerings on their websites yesterday and today, just between Rock Star Gallery (11), American Royal Arts (9, possibly 10) and Starmarks (1), plus two more efforts on C.C. - that makes a total of 23 signed Beatles albums on the market that I was able to track down. Twenty-one of them have apparently been approved by Mr. Morales. Twenty-one. And if those 21 are indeed authentic, and they really are worth at least $75,000 each, then we're talking about $1.5 MILLION. Of course, if they all sold at the bargain price of say, $15,000 each, that's a measly $315,000. How many of these have been sold in the past year, five years, ten years? For how any dollars? God knows. How can so many of these ultra-rare albums come on the market so quickly? Did the Beatles lock themselves up in a room and sign for weeks on end, and this hoard was just discovered? What is the provenance for these rarities? As I told Rich last night, I'm certain there's going to be some questions asked, and it won't be just here.

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02-19-2008, 09:31 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonDon't you guys remember that famous Beatles appearance at the Armenian Church Card Show in Manhattan. Promoted by National Pastime? The crowds surrounded the place and I can recall seeing hundreds of albums signed as my table was right near the signing platform. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-19-2008, 09:42 AM

Posted By: DDI just reviewed the material available on the Frank C. lawsuit web site. How does a company with ARA's supposed reputation end up spending lawyers fees with nothing to back them up except the word of Chris Morales? Out of everyone in the entire world that you could choose to authenticate a Beatles album, and you pick the guy that asks if Lennon is spelled with 2 "n's", or Lenin, as in Vladimir. The amount they are seeking is a joke. It's the standard value of a forged Beatles signed LP; somewhere in the $15,000 range, as opposed to the $75,000 if it was legitimate. I'm going to guess they may have given a cash advance to the consignor, and then they found out they were duped. I would definitely ask that question in court. By the way, the documents also make reference to the numbering scheme employed by Morales, and that he had certified approx 143 for them. How many did they submit to get a 143 to pass? I'll go out on a limb and say it was 142. #143 was a gift from Morales for all their business. Anyone have a Morales cert from CC? I would love to see how many he has authenticated for them.

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02-19-2008, 09:56 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonAll Frank has to do is get to discovery. That opens up the entire process. All financial records of the gallery are open to him, including records of who sold the the album to the gallery, and I believe all their other purchases would come into play, and the authentication processes will also come into play. The gallery is trying to intimidate and stifle Frank, plain and simple. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-19-2008, 10:06 AM

Posted By: MikeSo if I send my Beatles signed album to any of the so called "good authenticators" (PSA/DNA, Spence , etc) would they be objective and really give it a chance or it is automatically rejected because not many exist? Also do you send it to them insured at $75,000-100,000 ? It seems a lot of pressure is on these guys ( If determined real - $ 75,000+, if determined fake - $ 0. Thanks Mike

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02-19-2008, 10:13 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeOf course they would be objective. It would be a great boost to hobby and to them if they found an authentic album. CC auction this month. 2 Beatles albums from stat, one album sleeve from stat, one cut with all four names from morales, 1 photo by stat. That takes care of most of the albums they signed in there life time.

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02-19-2008, 10:15 AM

Posted By: Steve MurrayLet me see: A sells an item to B. B asks C for an opinion. C asks D for an opinion. D gives C an opinion. Without revealing the source C advises B of D's opinion (making it sound as though it is its own). B cancels the deal with A. A doesn't like D's opinion. A can sue D? Am I missing something here?

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02-19-2008, 10:19 AM

Posted By: DDIf the owners at Krause were smart, they would cancel, or sell SCD soon. It is an albatross around their necks, and drags down their legitimate publications. When it finally hits the fan, the fallout could impact them greatly. How does a company that is in the business of publishing magazines and books centering around the collectibles industry, knowingly (at this point, how could you not) allow advertisers whose majority of material is fake. If they do cancel, we get a 2fer, as Rosen will lose his venue as well.

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02-19-2008, 10:29 AM

Posted By: DDI e-mailed links to this thread to the Chair and Secretary of the Questioned Documents department at the American Academy of Forensic Sciences. Morales indicates on his web site that he is a member. If he is, and they ask him, I am sure he will staunchly defend his skills and reputation. You never know until you try; maybe it could be the beginning of the end of his authenticating garbage.

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02-19-2008, 11:05 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosDD - Please also forward them Mr. Morales' resume exactly as it currently appears on his website. I'm certain that if you claim membership to all of these organizations, you have to be able to back it up.

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02-19-2008, 11:18 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosThinking it out a bit - what does homicide investigation, fingerprinting ability, etc. have to do with autograph authentication? They're better suited for a cop. Hell, I'm a member of the NRA (pistol marksman) and a volunteer firefighter, but that doesn't mean I can authenticate thousands of different signatures. And Mike - re: your question about Beatles authentications. I'm sure that Mr. Spence and PSA will concede that what they do best is - baseball. And Mr. Caiazzo will concede that he doesn't know a damned thing about baseball, but is certainly qualified to opine on Beatles autographs. So...you use the best authenticators in the field for the autograph you want to have examined.

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02-19-2008, 11:21 AM

Posted By: JoannDamn, Steve M. You just earned my undying admiration for being able to wade through this mess and post that simple summary of the latest drama! J

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02-19-2008, 11:24 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeThis the statement from the Head of Department of Forensic Science at GWU What is most important in all of this is the following statement. there is no indication from membership in the AAFS that Mr. Morales has specialized credentials what would justify his identification as a document examiner. I feel that this is where the truth comes out. Is he qualified to be an expert. If so why is he not rated so by the AAFS.

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02-19-2008, 11:41 AM

Posted By: RobertAbout Sports Collectors Digest/Krause/FE...the one thing I detest about this business is the fact that autograph sellers (reputable ones) are for the most part, a selfish bunch. Legitimate autograph sellers who use SCD don't care that their competition may not be honest and is selling items at a rather large discount. The reputable seller has an item up for $3,000 and his competition has one for $200 and that's okay with them? Why? It wouldn't be okay to me of I was that seller. In regards to authenticating, people for the most part are specialized and the good ones admit that they aren't capable of authenticating all genres. Caizzo probably doesn't know jack about Barry Bonds or Andrew Johnson. So how is it that all these one or two men team/s can authenticate anyone from Plato to Lewis Carroll to Sitting Bull to Badfinger to Todd Helton? I'm very limited, I am the first to admit it, but I know when someone is blowing smoke up my arse. Oh, as a child I learned two things. Don't accept gifts from strangers and if it's too good to be true, it probably is. Robert

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02-19-2008, 11:51 AM

Posted By: DDi also e-mailed the publisher at Krause about this thread. No pun intended, but this whole thing seems like a house of cards. All we have to do is stumble upon the right button to push, and the whole thing will come crashing down. Forgers, Coach's corner, SCD, Morales, Solis, etc. Hopefully, someone in a position of authority can start the ball rolling.

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02-19-2008, 01:36 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosFOUR HUNDRED AND THIRTY-TWO POSTS! And more today than any other day! Anger, outrage, disgust, contempt, disbelief...all we need is a a Bastille to storm. And that's even before the press gets on it. Don't touch that dial.

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02-19-2008, 01:43 PM

Posted By: barrysloateIt is a long thread at that. I don't deal in autographs but I hope this thread serves as a stepping stone to cleaning up this end of the hobby. And if it carries over to deep-sixing Coach's Corner, that would be even better.

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02-19-2008, 02:12 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonGood work DD, outstanding work. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-19-2008, 02:22 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaThe power of this forum is pretty amazing in that it influences the hobby beyond the scope of just baseball cards. I believe this forum is responsible for many changes in the auction house business as far as how they run their auctions and for the most part they have been responsive to suggestions.

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02-19-2008, 02:27 PM

Posted By: DDThanks Rich. I also e-mailed the tip line at UPI.

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02-19-2008, 03:03 PM

Posted By: DDI just heard back from Dean Listle, the publisher of SCD. He indicated to me that he is going to read this thread.

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02-19-2008, 03:08 PM

Posted By: johnI was away this weekend and looks like I missed a lot. I disagree with the assumption that real Beatles albums sell for 75,000 and that anything in the 15,000 range would be fake. Lelands and Mastro have sold more than a few Beatles albums over the last 5 years. In my opinion, all were real and all sold in the 10,000 to 15,000 range. Do we think those many examples sold by Lelands and Mastro were fake due to the price? I do not. Now, of course these 800 CC examples are, in my opinion. Will everyone chime in here about the albums that have sold in the 15,000 range by Mastro and Lelands please. I have bid on many of them and finally purchased one.

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02-19-2008, 03:20 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosJohn, There is tremendous difference in price between Beatles-signed AMERICAN-issue covers and UK-issue covers. Obviously, the UK-issue covers are much more common, and $15K is still a good price. They now move at about $25K and up, in excellent condition, and the title is also very important in determining price. Remember, the distinction is that US covers are very much rarer. As far as I can tell, the albums offered by ARA are US-issue albums, offered there at, as I hear it, about $10K and up.

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02-19-2008, 03:30 PM

Posted By: DDBill, That is such a fine distinction, that I would guess most everyone, other than people who follow the market very closely, would not be aware of that. This could include the forgers and forensically certified, but intellectually challenged authenticators. Any defense attorney worth their salt could dig up the sales records, and show how unlikely and improbable it would be for one company to possess more than all previous sales records combined.

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02-19-2008, 03:31 PM

Posted By: MikeI agree I have seen a few sell in the $ 15000+ range. It may be wishful thinking if you have one certified by Frank Caiazzo, PSA etc and think it is worth $ 75,000. If I had one, I'd be stating a price like that also. What auctions have they sold in at that price ? Not the auctions I have checked out. I still can't believe only a couple of dozen albums were signed by the Beatles. Many fans stood outside Abbey Rd and Apple Corps in London and obtained autos like they do at baseball stadiums. Also I have heard of fans putting together auto albums and photos one at a time years after the group split. Therefore Paul's auto on the album could be 1967, Ringo 1980 etc.They also spent many hours in hotel rooms ( between girls) signing photos etc.for fan clubs, disabled persons, etc. Mike

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02-19-2008, 03:43 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosIt's US CAPITOL RECORDS covers, not British covers! By the time the Beatles got to the United States, you couldn't get near them. Itsonlyrocknroll.com sold one American cover, the last one sold, for $115,000, a little over a year ago. Call them and ask. Before that, a private sale went down for $85,000 four years ago, a Beatles '65 cover. US vs. BRITISH. That's the difference, boys 'n' girls.

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02-19-2008, 03:45 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeJohn, I see you have an opinion on the Beatles albums. How about your opinion on the Solis autographs. I know you told Bill what you thought of his.

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02-19-2008, 04:05 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosAnd DD - These forgers are not rocket scientists. Otherwise, they would have found a way to earn an honest living a long time ago. The issue is NOT the number of extant Beatles signed albums. The issue is forgery, and incompetent authenticators, and impossible amounts of exceedingly rare autographs, and auction houses that don't react to legitimate questions, and websites with no contact information, and baseless lawsuits, and false allegations made against honest dealers, and crooked double dealers lining their pockets at the expense of naive novice collectors, and... BTW - I just checked artfact.com. Only TWO beatles signed albums have been sold by Christie's, Sotheby's, Bonham's and other such prestigious auction houses in the past seven years. Both were British albums, one signed on the back brought $41,000, the other signed on the front (signatures light)brought $18,000 (2005). Although I respect Mastro and Lelands, I'd really like to know who, if anyone, authenticated those albums.

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02-19-2008, 04:11 PM

Posted By: DDWhere are Messrs. Morales and Solis this fine President's Day? Perhaps opening a forensic authentication lab in a non-extradition country? I hear Paraguay is quite lovely this time of year, and a real collectibles hotbed.

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02-19-2008, 04:13 PM

Posted By: Richard S. Simon<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203379821.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203379843.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203379866.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203379959.JPG">

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02-19-2008, 04:21 PM

Posted By: DDI can see it now. One of baseball's greats is recovering from transplant surgery. He can spend his time with his family, his girlfriend, Whitey and Yogi, etc., or, sign these 10,000 baseballs, specially made for a World Series that didn't take place. They took the game he played, and cancelled the greatest show of the year. He can sign those, or do something else, like, oh I don't know. FREAKIN anything. Seriously, the little that I know tells me the likelihood of that ball, or any 94 series ball being signed by Mantle very unlikely, unless Tom Catal owns it.

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02-19-2008, 04:30 PM

Posted By: johnShelly-Surely some problems with a loy of this guys stuff but many examples are not from the guy we discussed, in my opinion. Looks like a few different sources.

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02-19-2008, 04:33 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeI did not say it was all from one person. I only asked your opinion on the two items. The single mantle and the five hundred hr poster. I can see the other two are from different people. I am asking you if the those two items I mentioned are from you know who. If they are then you know there not authentic.

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02-19-2008, 04:35 PM

Posted By: johnShelly, I agree with you on those two items. I am not sure the 500 hr is from him, his are usually better

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02-19-2008, 04:36 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonOld World Series baseballs are one of the favorite tricks of the forgers. 1978, 1979 and 1994 WS baseballs are easily obtained. Throw a Thurman Munson autograph on a 1978 WS ball and a forger has made his day. DD - Mr Morales did say he would be back here when he got his information from GWU and he expected it by mid week. --

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02-19-2008, 04:47 PM

Posted By: Bob Knowing nothing of the Beatles, I did a little research. The exact price (for one), with the buyer's commission, was $115,228.82. Bidding began at $25,000. The copy of "Meet The Beatles," the band's first U.S. release on Capitol Records, was put up for sale by Harrison's sister, Louise. Another complete Beatles album signed on the cover, was snapped up for £21,600 (about $45K) at the Rock 'n' Roll and Film Memorabilia event in London. Recently in RR Auctions, an album signed by McCartney and Ringo sold for $4.933 and a copy of "Cheers" signed by Paul McCartney sold for $6,811. A photo signed by the four sold for $13K and $17K respectively over the last two months. A Beatles Album authenticated by STAT in the last Coach's Corner sold for $763. Coach's Corner currently has 8 complete or 3/4 signed items in their auctions. I was told by a friend that Beatles signed albums are very uncommon and they vary from $35-40K on up. Bob

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02-19-2008, 04:54 PM

Posted By: Rich KleinSince if I read the inference correctly he has passed, can someone fill me in on the details. I'm just curious as to when, etc. No, we never did any business but I do remember him -- and it's always good to get final conclusions. Regards Rich

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02-19-2008, 05:35 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonJohn - The pictures that I have posted for Shelly, do you believe they are authentic or not? You easily pointed out non authentic items in Bill's catalog earlier. I certainly agree with you on those and have told that to Bill. I am curious as to your opinion on the items up here now, the baseballs and the photos. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-19-2008, 05:43 PM

Posted By: AlanWOW. 450+ posts. Should I read them all ? What am I missing ?

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02-19-2008, 05:45 PM

Posted By: johnRichard, Bills were obvious from the quality of the photos. If you look at the Williams Dimaggio and Mantle photo Bill had, not speaking of the autographs, just the quality of the photo, they were of poor clarity and quality. No show promoter or dealer would have paid Ted, Joe and the Mick all that money only to have them sign a poor quality, washed out photo. Poor quality and clarity of photos is a big clue on the source we discussed. The photos you posted appear to have exceptional clarity. That throws me off to be honest and poses more questions for me about the source. Would I buy the product? No. I also have never seen the source we discussed use cachet and first day covers. I based my decision on Bill's items more from the poor photo quality than the appearance of the signatures. Not only are the photos poor from the source we discussed but his baseballs I have seen all have blemishes and stains. These balls look mint. Maybe he's changing his game plan. Would I buy a Mantle 94 World Series baseball that he only had a year to sign? No. Would I buy a Double Fantasy Lennon album that he had three weeks to sign? No. Would I buy a Ruth ball that wasn't produced until 1948? No.

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02-19-2008, 06:03 PM

Posted By: johnRichard, The Joe D. and Ted ball, in my opinion, did not come from the source we have discussed. The Williams balls from the source never have the top of the the "a" closed. The Williams on the Joe and Ted ball do have the "a" closed. The Joe D. is different than from the source we discussed. Are those you posted from the source in question?

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02-19-2008, 06:05 PM

Posted By: DDI believe it was between 5-10 years ago. I can't remember when I found out. It was from someone that lived in Ron's old neighborhood, so I consider the source reliable.

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02-19-2008, 06:22 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeJohn - thanks for agreeing with me on the two pieces that are from the "guy" we all know so well. The others came from other forgers, I am sure of that. The 500 HR envelope is one of the worst forgeries i have ever seen. dont you at least agree with that? As far as the 94 WS ball, this is what we used to call the famous shake and bake ball, meaning that there are extreme tremors in the capital M's, something Mickey never did, so many tremors it looked like Mantle signed them during an earthquake. Marino could do it without the shake, that is what made him so good. Awaiting your comment. Shelly

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02-19-2008, 06:31 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonJohn - what I have posted, at Shelly's request, is all from Solis' site. I still don't understand your response. Let me make myself clear, would you buy any of those items? -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-19-2008, 06:32 PM

Posted By: johnShelly, I can't agree that it's the worst forgery I have seen. There was a guy in New York, Billy Costa, doing 500 HR stuff in the 90's that my daughter could have done a better job on. Billy was mentioned in the Bullpen reports. He died before being charged. For the second time, I would not buy the item. One thing about the Mantle's from the source was that he didn't shake either on the M's. At least not on the stuff I saw. Keep in mind, I haven't had any dealings since 2003 on that inventory. I'll see if I can dig out some of that old inventory. I still have a few balls and photos in my files. I'll be interested to compare against these.

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02-19-2008, 06:35 PM

Posted By: johnRichard-You must not be reading my posts. From 5 posts up: "Would I buy the product? No"

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02-19-2008, 06:40 PM

Posted By: johnShelly, Can you post Marino exemplars? I have always heard his Mantles were so good. From what I have seen labeled as a Marino forgery, they look pathetic to me. Do you have some scans from Marino? Mantle specifically.

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02-19-2008, 07:14 PM

Posted By: johnI just had a chance to view the website of the person everyone refers to as "rich". While there are some items on there I wouldn't personally buy, he does have some nice, authentic items there. His basketball inventory and boxing stuff looks good to me, especially he Manning helmet is dead on also. I haven't had the chance to view everything and am no authenticator but he does appear to have some great items in light of what has been discussed here. I'm sure I'll get beat up on here by saying this, oh well, everyone has an opinion.

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02-19-2008, 07:19 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosThis is all getting very tired, very rapidly, so it's time to take the bull by the b -a l - l - s - : Mr. Morales: Your website states, verbatim: QUOTE "An Open Challenge As noted herein, I will meet anyone in a public forum to review and assess my work efforts. Since private communications are often cherry picked to bolster a point of view, at times misdirecting the facts, it is my position that any meetings and communications be conduct in the open. If anyone desires to contact me concerning an open forum, please do not hesitate to call, email or otherwise contact me at anytime". UNQUOTE Mr. Morales, I hereby challenge you to appear, before a group of your peers in the autograph authentication trade and the international press, to: a.) Discuss your "forensic" methods of authentication, and your education and qualifications, using exemplars or otherwise; b.) Describe in detail other criteria you used to authenticate the thousands of various autographs for which you have issued certificates; c.) explain your relationships, if any, with the various consignors, auction houses, galleries, etc. for whom you authenticate, and; d.) assess your work efforts, ie: how have your authentications been received in the autograph market, as a whole. If you wish to limit the discussion to your "work efforts" alone, I would expect your peers would still meet with you, depending on the agenda. I will pay your airfare and hotel room expenses for your attendance at such a forum in the New York area, for a meeting within the next 60 days. As stated above, I expect you would be asked to respond to inquiries from your peers, that is, knowledgeable, recognized dealers of the same material which you have authenticated. Should the location not be convenient for you, I'm sure we can arrange a meeting in Falls Church. Mr. Shelly Jaffe has already graciously agreed to attend, as has Mr. Frank Caiazzo. I assume that this email will reach you, since I do not have your emali address. If anyone posting to this site can confirm delivery to Mr. Morales, I would be much obliged. B. Panagopulos PS Shall I assume that your silence in response to this message means you decline my offer?

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02-19-2008, 07:37 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosSidetrack...Sidetrack...Sidetrack. John...You seem like a nice guy, someone concerned about the hobby, but you are missing the point. Nobody gives a damn about the one-off fake hitting the market...it;'s the hundreds of Mantle/DiMaggio/McCartney/Ruth/Hitler/Washington/Mother Teresa/Bobby Jones/Kevin Kostner/Britney Spears/Thomas Jefferson, etc. etc. etc. fakes hitting the market. In the grand scheme of things, who gives a rat's arse about ONE bad signature?

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02-19-2008, 07:42 PM

Posted By: johnyou've lost me Bill. I think everyone is concerned about any forgery being sold whether its one or one thousand bad pieces. "You seem like a nice guy" On most days, I'm not <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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02-19-2008, 07:44 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosMeanwhile, forgive my rant, John. Too much negativity on this site, and it's made me jaded. Anyway, still awaiting Mr. Morales' response to me "taking up the gauntlet". If he refuses to accept my offer, well, that should pretty well put the matter to rest. Mr. Morales - Did you read this?

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02-19-2008, 07:51 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeJohn - this is just beating around the bush. Lets not get into a pissing match. You correctly stated that Bill had bad stuff. Richard Simon and I agreed with you. Is the first day cover a forgery? This is a yes or no question. Do you believe that all the items I had Richard put up for me are authentic or not. Yes or no. No stories, no beating around the bush, just yes or no. Marino's exemplars are available through the FBI, using the Freedom of Information Act. FYI - Shake and bake Mantle's were done by one guy and supplied by "you know who". "You know who" supplied B&J , Howard's, Madison Sports and others the following items that appeared on Shop At Home , Sky Miles, American Express and other venues. The major venue was Shop At Home. The following items were offered weekly: Koufax, Mantle-Williams balls on the ss, 500 HR balls, Mays balls, Mantle balls, Williams balls, Dimaggio balls and many other items that were all forged. When Operation Bullpen went down, the FBI was aware of this. Shop At Home never offered refunds to anyone. Mike Lopez sold football team signed helmets to Shop At Home. The FBI knew this and Lopez even went back to Shop At Home after his plea bargain and admitted to them, he sold them forged goods. They did nothing about it. Shelly ps. I just saw your latest post. Give me a break. Didn't you see Solis walking around with Frangipani at the National in Atlantic City with "you know who" ( Don't you see all the Mantle, Dimaggio, Williams stuff that is fake? I have not asked about his real stuff. Good for him that he is selling real stuff. He is loaded with crap. I still cannot pin you down on the nine items I have posted. I will put up any amount of cash you would like to cover a bet that this is bad stuff. We can bring in Greer, Catal, Dom Dimaggio and players to talk about any of these autographs. I am tired of your constant shuffling of words. This thread is not about you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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02-19-2008, 07:52 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosAnd PS John: Send me a really good scan of your Beatles album. I'd be happy to get you another opinion. In comradeship, Bill

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02-19-2008, 07:55 PM

Posted By: MikeWe need a few of us to go to the following in Chicago in April. It's the Premier Collectible Conference and Exhibition. Has round table discussions on Graded Cards, Authentication , Autographs, etc. Go to : www.pcce2008.com and click : Schedule

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02-19-2008, 08:06 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosIf you've been ripped-off, some of the places you need to go are : Federal Attorney for the Southern District of New York Attorney General of the State of Pennsylvania Attorney General of the State of Florida Attorney General of the State of California Federal Bureau of Investigation United States Postal Service Postal Inspectors There's more...let me think for a day or two...

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02-19-2008, 08:09 PM

Posted By: johnShelly-Are you slow or just stupid? Seriously. How clear can I make it? You have been answered now three times. I would not buy those items. Translation: I do not like them. P.S. I wouldn't know Rich if he walked in my front door. I didn't see Don F. there in Atlantic City either. I was there thursday only. I took the train in from NYC where I was living that summer and left the same day..

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02-19-2008, 08:18 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosJohn and Shelly, Afraid both you guys are pickled. This site is about FORENSIC EXAMINERS, not Abe Schlobotnic you met back in '62. Get back on task.

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02-19-2008, 08:22 PM

Posted By: DDI think at this point it's about forensic examiners, forgers, and anything else related that will get this issue some attention from an authoritative source, be it the police, feds, or publishers. Once one of these, or others, gets on board, the problem will continue. At this point, we're a bunch of mostly anonymous people (to each other) trying to get something done. Do what you need to and tell whom you can. I e-mailed the publisher of Autograph Collector's magazine. I invited him to read this and contribute, or do a story, or even a mention somewhere.

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02-19-2008, 08:28 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosNo dice, DD - they never, ever, print anything negative. Bad news is bad for the hobby... Try Undertakers Weekly, or Embalmer's Digest. Seems more fitting for what we see here...

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02-19-2008, 08:34 PM

Posted By: DDHow about a grass roots movement, internet style? Anyone with a hobby related website that can have a link to this thread, how about it? I don't know if it would be a mutual link kind of thing (and I certainly can't and won't speak for the moderators of this forum), but more informational on this specific topic. We need to reach the Coaches Corner and mall store customers that are buying this kind of junk. I know at least 2 of you have an autograph related web site.

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02-19-2008, 08:40 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosWith all due respect, John, that dog won't hunt. You can't afford what it will take to outspend the forgers. A determined effort by dealers and auctioneers to prosecute and jail forgers, and sue other parties in civil court, will produce far more in less time than any PR effort could hope to do in a decade.;

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02-19-2008, 08:41 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeI guess that I must be slow and stupid. I thought you where friends with Rich. The reason I thought that is, that he is the man behind the authenticating of you know who's garbage. Bill you are correct on to better and bigger things . Looking forward to Morales telling us just how wonderful he is.

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02-19-2008, 08:48 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosYer right, Shelly me boyo! On to bigger and (hopeully) better things I have emailed Mr. Morales my challenge (as seen above). I'll spend the the dough just to settlle the issue. He is welcome to accept it, decline it, or modify it. I'll be very accommodating. Let's move on.

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02-19-2008, 09:36 PM

Posted By: PscolgrafsWell, I asked last night for our friend: Imoguspar@aol.com to e-mail me and I had not checked my e-mail until today. I felt since others have shared his amusing rants, I may as well too. Especially since Bill and Shelly are putting me to sleep here. This was sent on the 14th: Based on your anonymous posts, I'd say that if brains were water, yours couldn't fill an ant's ass. Talk about overkill. Get your head out and get a life !!!!!! My response: CALLING ME ANONYMOUS? Dude, look at your ass! I was then sent an e-mail on the 17th, where this coward spoke ill about certain autograph sellers, one posting here now. Do you want me to print this up? I will be more than happy to put it on the Forum if you like. Just say the word. I haven't said anything out of the ordinary, but posted a bunch of prices and asked a few questions. 2/485 posts. But keep the insults coming. They amuse me. Do you have a myspace page? Bill, Mr. Morales said that the college was closed on Monday and that he would come back here after the holiday.

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02-20-2008, 06:10 AM

Posted By: J. McMurry I just have one more question on the signed beatles album covers. I can see a US cover signed in 64/65 going for a premium $40-75k, but what about a reissue white album signed by all four at different times from 1970-80? Does the 12 in existence thing include those types of albums or just the ones signed as a group in the 60's? Just curious.

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02-20-2008, 08:03 AM

Posted By: ChuckNone of you here know me. I lurk here alot. I think I have posted only once in the past year and maybe 5 times over the past 6 or so years. I am 44, disabled and, financially poor. I haven't collected for some time. I like to come here and watch the workings.The way you guys treat and respect each other has been a breath of fresh air in a time where folks seem to expect to be ripped off and dishonesty is almost considered "business as usual". If I were to begin collecting again, I wouldn't hesitate to deal with just about any regular member here. I've been reading this post since it started. I'm seeing men that are angry, men that want justice and some that seem to be in a "Big Dick" contest. Then there are those that are absolutely full of fear. The men that have believed that they would someday cash in on their collections to retire or send their kid to college. I would probably be in that category had I been able to maintain a collection instead of paying for multiple back surgeries over the years. I know that I would be beside myself and where I come from,legal action just wouldn't be enough. Watching and waiting each day to see if my life is literally not worth the paper it's written on. The thought of facing my loved ones and having to tell them that their dreams will not be realized. Day in and out , thinking about the P.O.S. that literally stole not only my money but, my joy as well. I think that I would have to take the few bucks I have left and take a bus to look up this forensic authority and have a good old fashioned Southern Splainin Session and then just whip his ass until I got tired or I needed another back surgery. And after I get out of jail, I'd have to whip his ass again just because. Fortunately for me and these jizz for ethics so called "men", I don't have any of their work to return to them anally.To you guys who are really scared right now, You and your families are in my prayers. Thanks for your time P.S. To the paper hangers...Think there might be others out there that think like me? It must be hard to get anywhere when you spend most of your time looking behind you!

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02-20-2008, 08:58 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonFor a long period of time, he was the major forger. His work was easily identifiable. This took place quite a while ago - I had set up a table at the White Plains show and a young couple came to my table with an envelope. They pulled a large amount of "rare" cuts out of the envelope. After looking at what they had, it was easy to determine that everything was bogus, and that it was all the work of Ron Dross. The couple looked at each other and tears came to their eyes. These autographs were going to finance their wedding. They asked me if I was sure and I said yes, but if you want to, check with so and so, and I pointed them to another dealer in the room who knew his stuff. Same result. I saw the couple leaving the room with their shoulders hunched over and their hopes crushed. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-20-2008, 09:26 AM

Posted By: DDRich, There is nothing funny about that story. When I mentioned my story about Ron, it was in the days before he flooded the market with his crap. We all start out innocent and make choices. Ron was a good show promoter. Along with his partner Andy, they would fill up the Golden Gate in Brooklyn, and would have tons of players, including HOF'ers, signing autos. He had a good future ahead of him before he decided to make his living illegally. He is now paying the ultimate price for his misdeeds.

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02-20-2008, 09:45 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonDD- when I said amusing and Ron Dross I was referring to the story about the wrestler he had as a guest who did not show up at his show. It was written as an amusing story. The title on my post was meant to show that Ron Dross WAS NOT amusing. It was a very lamentable story. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-20-2008, 09:49 AM

Posted By: DDRich, I totally got that. What I was saying is that even though I wrote the comment about the wrestler, that Ron was a different person then. There is no excuse for anyone getting involved in forgeries. If you can't make an honest living in this country, and are intelligent, then you have bigger moral issues at hand.

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02-20-2008, 09:58 AM

Posted By: EricStories like that absolutely crush me. Thinking you are investing towards something, and then you find that out. I used to collect autographs myself. For about 7 years to be exact. My goal was to build up a collection that my grandkids would one day enjoy, if I ever had any. I quit collecting about a year and a half ago, and I will never look back. I'm so disgusted by the hobby, and never want anything to do with it again. This is partly my fault as I jumped into it as a novice and didn't do thorough research. Those that I knew were real I sold off, and I didn't care that I sold at a loss (these had COA's from JSA, PSA/DNA, GAI, etc...the trusted names). I just wanted to get rid of them. Now what I have left is a collection of mostly bogus autos. Those that I question, or that I know are bogus, I just want to burn. 2 ruth cuts, one "authenticated" by someone mentioned here. A Mel Ott cut w/display "authenticated" by AAU, Jimmie Foxx, Mickey Mantle, Ted Williams, etc. The hobby is definitely loosing collectors everyday, and for reasons like this. Someone previously mentioned Signature Dreams out of PA. Most of the pieces they sell are accompanied by Morales COAs, probably upwards of 90%. They have a disclaimer when you buy from them. They will not accept returns based on the findings of "third party authenticators" like PSA/DNA, JSA, GAI, etc. You have to get another opinion from a court qualified, board certified forensics document examiner. And not only that, but you have to OK your choice by them first. I had an autograph that failed by PSA and JSA, and brought this to their attention. Then I asked if I could use Simon, and they said no way. I never could find someone for a second opinion. So I had to eat it. Not that it matters now (because I'm done), but I will never do business with them again.