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02-02-2008, 02:07 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>An Open Letter To Christopher Morales and STAT Authentic<br /><br />Christopher, I was recently directed to your web site( www.moralesforensics.com) and since you state that you are willing to be involved in a Public Forum to assess your work efforts, I have created a few questions that I would like for you to publicly respond to in Forum form. I have also included a few questions for Ted Taylor and Jeff Stevens and I am hopeful that they can clarify a few things as well. I will also openly admit that I was the shadowed figure in the HBO Special known as “Eddie”.<br /><br />1) Chris, you state on your site: "As to the Marino family skill, one of the lead federal undercover agents has opined that the Marino's were so skilled and even had obtained vintage items so that absent very specialized analysis and other clues, he probably wouldn't have known the items were fake. The HBO analysis appears to be based on an assumption that all confiscated items were fake and that cursory examinations by a convicted felon supplants legitimate testing." <br /><br />First off, a federal undercover agent is NOT an autograph expert. You are the autograph expert. How would they know a good forgery from a bad forgery? Since you are supposedly the autograph expert, your skills were tested and you FAILED!<br /><br />Second, there was no assumption that the items may have been legitimate. ALL of the signatures sent to you were forgeries. The forgeries were plucked from the California FBI warehouse with the assistance of FBI Special Agent Tim Fitzsimmons and all done by Greg Marino. The warehouse was separated into two sections, one for forgeries and one for authentic items. I repeat, the signatures of which you were tested on, were NOT AUTHENTIC!<br /><br />2) You then state on your site: "It has been reported that the "star witness" has approached at least one of the parties who "failed" the HBO test seeking post-incarceration employment."<br /><br />I am not a "star witness" (or a witness for that matter), but simply a consultant or contributor to this HBO piece. I would also like to know who I approached for employment following my incarceration. I NEVER ASKED ANYONE FOR A JOB! Please tell me who I contacted as I would love to know this. <br /><br />3) You also state on your site: "At the same time, the "objective" witness and the HBO program recommended utilizing the services of one of the known felon's prior business associates."<br /><br />First off, HBO DID NOT recommend utilizing my services and if memory fails me, I don't remember them ever recommending any services. Please advice as to whom they recommended/<br /><br />4) You then state the following: "Forensic examiners" are highly skilled and while they cannot be perfect, a consumer's best protection is verification of any COA through such an examiner." <br /><br />WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Forensics kept us in business! Donald Frangipani passed 100% of the items sent to him. Did you see that part on the HBO Real Sports special where FBI special agent Tim Fitzsimmons plucks from a box a dozen or so identical looking Babe Ruth signed album pages, all with Frangipani Loa’s and all authenticated on the same day? <br /><br />5) According to your site: "I am now and in the past been self employed since leaving the Federal government...I have never formed any partnerships. I have never had a business agreement or financial relationship with any other examiner(s)." <br /><br />According to an interview with "Sports Collectors Digest", Donald Frangipani contradicts (I think) that statement. <br />SCD Interview: <br /><br />SCD: Are you a partner with Christopher Morales?<br />DF: That is correct. Chris Morales worked with the Secret Service for a few years and has taken forensic courses. He has a double Masters degree; he's pretty bright.<br /><br />And then Donald states…<br /><br />SCD: Would you call him your protégé?<br />DF: Yes and no. We're not partners; we consult each other. Chris testifies in regular cases with me; we don't just do autographs. In fact, we just did two trials.<br /><br />And then there is the matter of your own personal web site resume where it states:<br /><br />Partner. Frangipani and Morales Forensic Investigations.<br /><br />Yes, I do have DISDAIN for Forensics. You have at least that correctly. <br /><br />Many of you may not be aware of this, but in 2003, Richard Simon, Steve Koschal and myself began working for Tracercode, an authenticating branch created by Bill Fleming. We were asked by Sports Collector’s Digest to authenticate some of the higher priced items in the monthly Coach’s Corner Sports Auctions. We were sent scans of about 200 autographs, of which, we passed 2-3 per month. We worked with Coach’s Corner Sports Auction for three months and then we were replaced.<br /><br />My questions are now directed to Stat Authentics Ted Taylor and Jeff Stevens, two individuals who appear to have replaced us as the prime authenticating firm for the premium items in all of Coach’s Corner Sports Auctions. <br /><br />1) My first question is for Ted Taylor. Ted, you worked for Scoreboard where you were surrounded by autographs of the three most popular Scoreboard subjects in Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams. How could you have gotten those three wrong when you were tested for the HBO Real Sports special? <br /><br />2) Now Jeff Stevens. When Coach's Corner Sports Auction uses STAT to authenticate their Babe Ruth items, often there is a mention on how one of the members of the STAT team authenticates for the Babe Ruth museum. I contacted the Executive Director of the Babe Ruth Museum Michael Gibbins who stated that Jeff Stevens authenticates in person items. How does simply overseeing a signing (which a monkey can do) give you the right to admit openly that you are an expert on that particular celebrity due simply to the fact that you have a small association with the Museum? Don’t you feel this is a misleading statement? <br /><br />In closing, the proof is in the pudding. Just look at the prices your pieces bring versus the known authenticators in hobby.<br /><br />Shelly Jaffe<br /><br />I would appreciate your posting a response . If you absolutely have to respond to me, you can do so at shellyj@cox.net<br /><br /><br />**************<br />

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02-02-2008, 02:12 PM
Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>oh boy.<br /><br />Shelly - you're going to need an email addy on that post.

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02-02-2008, 02:42 PM
Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>His email is at the bottom of his letter.

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02-02-2008, 02:42 PM
Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>shellyj@cox.net

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02-02-2008, 02:43 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I know of Shelly and have spoken with him several times on the phone. I am sure I have his email address somewhere if anyone needs it....but I am comfortable this is really Shelly asking these tough questions. I don't have much knowledge about autographs so won't comment otherwise....This is not an anonymously posted thread....best regards

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02-02-2008, 02:45 PM
Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>He already added his email to the OP. I couldn't care either way, just trying to help.

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02-02-2008, 02:54 PM
Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>This thread should be deleted. Too many glass houses; somebody might fall through a window and injure themselves.

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02-02-2008, 03:00 PM
Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Synopsis of what follows ...<br /><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2jUYNimDnE" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2jUYNimDnE</a>

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02-02-2008, 03:11 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I know you haven't been on the board very long but I have an unwritten rule to not delete threads except under extraordinary circumstances or if the original poster is anonymous. I might lock some threads but deleting is a major no-no. I know Shelly has had issues in the past but these questions sound like legitimate questions....It would be nice to have them responded to by the folks they are pointed at. I will say that I don't want any anonymous posts in this thread. If you post anonymously in this thread I will delete it. Forewarned is fair warned....best regards

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02-02-2008, 03:14 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Jodi - why do you think this thread should be deleted?<br />I think this thread will develop into a very interesting one.<br />PC- your post is very unclear, can you please explain what you mean?<br /><br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-02-2008, 03:22 PM
Posted By: <b>1880nonsports</b><p>from the original post:<br />"We were sent scans of about 200 autographs, of which, we passed 2-3 per month." Forget the glaring %ages and that CC has been blasted about this on a nearly weekly basis here and about the authenticity of their items...*********Authenticating autographs from SCANS just points to the general absurdity of the industry. It can't be done. It can rule something OUT but not IN. Sad.******** That also suggests to me that the people who continue to do so for auction houses and those who did so in concert with Mr. Jaffe (examined from scans) aren't the people I want verifying the authenticity of an auto I might purchase. I don't collect autographs - and kind of happy about it as the inherent problems with buying an autograph appears quite risky and I'd always be losing sleep worrying that it wasn't real........

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02-02-2008, 03:31 PM
Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Richard,<br />Im with you . I see no reason why this thread should be deleted. Shelly has asked some great questions and I would love to hear some of the answers.<br />Leon like you said it should definitely stay.

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02-02-2008, 03:37 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>When we authenticated for Tracer Code we examined mostly scans , but the better items were sent to us upon our request. We issued very few COA's but the items that we did issue COA's for were always examined in person.<br />The items that we did not see in person were not necessary to see in person. <br /><br />Two weeks ago three scans were posted here of Ruth, Johnson and Wagner autographs which were for sale on ebay, many people rendered worthwhile opinions on those items, by just viewing the scans. I had also written to several other highly respected people in the autograph business and sent them scanned copies of these autographs. All the opinions were unanimous in that the autographs were bad.<br /><br />In addition during the HBO series, Mr Jaffe came across the famous Upper Deck $85,000 card with four autographs on it. Ruth, Cobb, Wagner and Johnson.<br />Mr Jaffe determined that Ruth and Johnson were forgeries and proceeded to send scans of those two autographs (without showing that they were from the Upper Deck card) to Jimmy Spence, myself, PSA, Steve Koschal, Jim Stinson and Seth Boyd. All of these people, based only on the scan, agreed with Shelly. <br /><br />When something is obviously bad, a skilled authenticator can determine that the item is bad from a scan. When there is some doubt the item will then always be examined in person. We would never issue a COA without an in person examination.<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-02-2008, 03:52 PM
Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>Let's just say that Leon pointed out my greatest fear--that of a lot of anonymous pranksters throwing stones. Also, "finger-pointing" threads such as these can sometimes become so heated that they lose a great deal of objectivity. Those points now expressed, I will be happy to simply sit back and follow this thread from a casual standpoint.

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02-02-2008, 06:53 PM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>I think Jafee should get off our pre war forum. I don't care to hear opinions from a scumbag who stole from children and grandmothers. He thinks he has been redeemed by spending a VERY short time in a federal jail? PLEASE! I have heard the theory that Shelly is good for the autograph community because he "knows forgeries". Can you imagine dropping off your little girl at daycare and being told a child molestor would be monitoring the class because he "knows other molestors and can sniff them out"? Give me a break. It surprises me that someone reputable like Simon would be associated with a scumbag and thief like Jafee. Go somewhere else

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02-02-2008, 07:20 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Micah, you need to put an email address with your posts in this thread.

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02-02-2008, 07:33 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Micah - people change, as has Shelly. I would not be so quick to condemn without knowing all the facts.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-02-2008, 07:33 PM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>read above. I don't want a felon contacting me personally

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02-02-2008, 07:35 PM
Posted By: <b>1880nonsports</b><p>as I guess you were included in my blanket statement. "...but the better items were sent to us upon our request. We issued very few COA's but the items that we did issue COA's for were always examined in person.". I essentially don't have a problem with this - although when an aution house says - these things were authenticated blah blah blah - it's discomforting to think it might have been viewed from a scan. The little buyer is just as concerned with their purchase as a high dollar collector is with their big money auto.. I understand time constraints and expense involved in authenticating big lots or more common elements don't leave much room to view everything all the time. I guess it is most important to know the reputation - experience - and diligence of the authenticator - which comes from experience and talking to other collectors/dealers.<br />BTW, I have only heard good things about you (Richard) and did purchase a Lekang auto when I was chasing the Sport King set. The transaction was quick and easy.......<br />

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02-02-2008, 07:56 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Micah - ever see the movie, starring Tom Hanks & Leonardo De Caprio called Catch Me If You Can,,,, if not I suggest you give it a try.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-02-2008, 08:01 PM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>You say "people change, as has Shelly". I agree with that. My problem with Shelly being in the autograph businss is that you and others associated with him and formed a partnership just a short time after he left prison. I would guess he was still on probation/parole at that point. I would like to think the autograph industry and any reputable dealer with half a brain would have waited a while. Lets see if he has really changed after several years, not several months. It just seemed ridiculous for anyone to accept him back in the hobby on such short notice. I think the public spoke their dissaproval by not untilizing Tracercodes services(they closed shop quickly) and no other reputable auction house or dealer has since employeed Jafee....thank God. I have a problem with these convicted Bullpen guys selling autographs again. tribetime! on ebay was a conviced bullpen felon and is now selling autograhs. Am I the only one who has an issue with this? When you are convicted of insurance fraud, you NEVER sell insurance again. It shoud apply to autographs as well. Richard-my grandmother used to have a saying "If you play with Sh*t, it is bound to get on you" I think your associaion with Jafee has kept you from entering the bigger auction houses as an authenticator. I have wondered why I don't see your name in Josh's auction, Mastro's, Hunts, Sothebys, or any other respected companies. It may be the company you are associated with, just my opinion.<br /><br />Dan-Leon has my email. I do not want a convicted felon having my home email address.

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02-02-2008, 08:12 PM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>Richard-I posted the last one before I read your suggestion of "Catch Me If You Can". Great movie but I hope you arent trying to compare Shelly with Frank Abagnale. The forger Abagnale spent over 7 years in various prisons in horrible conditions in France (He almost died there). Not only did he spend over 7 years but he also ONLY worked for the government and WITHOUT pay. Abagnale did not go into private consultation on fogeries for over 16 years after his release. He struggled as a grocercy store stock boy, unloaded trucks, etc for many years. He proved he was clean and redeemed after many, many YEARS, not months. Abagnale was on a much higher plane than anyone of the goons from Bullpen.

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02-02-2008, 08:21 PM
Posted By: <b>Cat (ret.)</b><p>editted so as not to get the thread off track.

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02-02-2008, 08:25 PM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>I know about leon's past and am not worried about him! Funny though.

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02-02-2008, 08:28 PM
Posted By: <b>1880nonsports</b><p>in and of itself DOES sound a bit like a shot that shouldn't have been fired. Don't know you or your relationship with the object of that remark - but sometimes I think it's best to chuckle at something to yourself rather than say it out loud.........

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02-02-2008, 08:49 PM
Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>My favorite quote of this thread is: "I think Jafee should get off our pre war forum". OUR pre-war forum? It's yours? And it's spelled "Jaffe". <br /><br />The great part about the internet is that you can say what you want about anyone and never have to face them, which is what you are doing Micah.<br /><br />While Shelly had a checkered past, he has done right by the educated autograph community. He did his time and he's not a bad guy anymore. Bringing Richard's reputation into this for dealing with Shelly is a low blow and uncalled for as well. <br /><br />This is an interesting thread and I look forward to seeing how it concludes and whether anything good can come from it. So far, nothing good has come from it other than nonsense and character assasinations.<br /><br />DJ

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02-02-2008, 09:00 PM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>The great part about the internet is that you can say what you want about anyone and never have to face them, which is what you are doing Micah.<br /><br />I had the pleasure of meeting Shelly at the National at Tracercodes booth and told their crew the same feelings to their face as I am saying now. I also had the misfortune of purchasing a forged Ted Williams and Ripken signature from Shelly. I haven't stated anything here that is not 100% factual. He is a convicted thief and con man, period. I hope he is redeemed and I hope he is a good guy now. It doesn't translate into letting him back in the business. I work out with the nicest guy in the world, a true gentleman. He was convicted of bank fraud in he 80's and served time. Guess what? He will NEVER work in the banking business again. Still a heck of a nice guy!

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02-02-2008, 09:02 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>My two cents: I'll take one Leon ahead of three guys that dress roosters up in outfits before sending them out to kill each other, anyday.....<br /><br />See? Sometimes the significance of a person's past is not all that it's cracked up to be.

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02-02-2008, 09:11 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Micah -- the reason your friend won't be back in the banking business is that it is governmentally regulated; therefore, if you're convicted of fraud, you're not working in the banking industry after. Unfortunately, the auction, card and autograph businesses are unregulated -- it's the Wild West out here.

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02-02-2008, 09:13 PM
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Micah <br /><br />While I agree with much of what you said the bottom line is the judge that sentenced him did not make it a condition of his Parole/probation. Thus, he is entitled to make a living anyway he wishes. All you or anyone can do is not utilize his services.<br /><br />Steve<br /><br />

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02-02-2008, 09:35 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Micah - I am not associated with big auction houses because the major authenticators who work for auction houses are all backed by million dollar advertising campaigns. This has created a hierarchy in the mind of the collecting public, which thinks that the leading authentication company is the be all and end all of the hobby. I am sure that many people on this board have read many of the stories about them. I am sure that many of the people on this board disagree with the public perception of this company.<br />I worked with Shelly , that is certainly true. We did not form a business partnership but we worked together. <br />But so has Tim Fitzsimmons. Does that name ring a bell? Tim was the head FBI agent in Operation Bullpen. He will vouch for Shelly to anyone in this hobby. That was why I worked with Shelly. If he was good enough for Tim Fitzsimmons then he was good enough for me.<br /><br />ps. Lelands does not use outside authenticators. Mike Hefner and Josh are two of the top people in the country regarding knowledge of autographs, and I would trust their opinion on autographs over anyone else.<br /><br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-02-2008, 09:46 PM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>Who is "this company" you refer to...enlighten me, please. If an FBI agent, Tim Fitzimmons, is recomending Shelly for employment in the autograph industry mere months after his release (Is this what you mean?) then the FBI higher ups should seriously be looking into this agents competency. As for recomending him several years after the fact, sure, why not. Several months after the fact? I don't think so.

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02-02-2008, 09:47 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Richard, I appreciate your position and have high regard for you; I also have no problem with Shelly as he has paid his debt to society and made some amends for his prior bad acts.<br /><br />That being said, the fact that an FBI agent would work with him is not necessarily a big deal; federal agents will work with anything and anyone to get a conviction in a case. Trust me, generally they don't think very highly of their cooperators. I can't speak of Shelly's specific situation but in my experience, some of the lowest, lyingest pieces of garbage are used by the feds to make cases.

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02-02-2008, 09:49 PM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>"I am not associated with big auction houses because the major authenticators who work for auction houses are all backed by million dollar advertising campaigns." I know for a fact that Jimmy Spence doesn't have a million dollar ad campaign.

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02-02-2008, 09:50 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>The company I am referring to is PSA, I assumed that was obvious to all.<br />And regarding Tim Fitzsimmons and Shelly, I don't know if it is possible for someone to communicate with Tim at this time, but Tim speaks highly of Shelly, feels he has paid his debt to society and Tim definitely trusts him.<br />Jimmy Spence had a million dollar ad campaign backing him when he spent five years with PSA.<br />--<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-02-2008, 09:51 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Spence would have a million dollar ad campaign if only he hadn't blown all his loot on attending courses on how to spot a real Sal Bando autograph. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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02-02-2008, 09:54 PM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>Touche

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02-02-2008, 10:51 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Please email me again...<br />thanks

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02-03-2008, 09:40 AM
Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>This thread has been running for 20 hours and we have yet to hear from Mr Morales or STAT.<br />Anybody want to venture a guess if they even will reply ?<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-03-2008, 10:44 AM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I wrote about Morales and STAT because of the many postings about CC in this forum. Morales and STAT have made statements on their respective websites that I felt needed questioning. <br /><br />Since some of you are making this thread about me I feel I have right to answer your questions and statements.<br /><br />To answer Micah, I have never sold a forged Ripken ball in my life.As to the Ted Williams balls they came from B and J collectibles or Score Board. The reason I bought from these companies is that Greg Moreno could not forge Ted Williams' signature very well. You claim to have bought these items from me, show me the receipt. I very rarely sold to the public. I sold mostly to dealers who knew what they where getting. I issued receipts for all the items I sold. Show me the receipt that I issued to you for Ripken. <br /><br />The court never asked me to pay back anyone I sold to. I did it anyway. Micah, if I sold you bogus items, why did you not attempt to obtain a refund from me?<br /><br />My relationship with Tim Fitzsimmons of the FBI was based on the fact that I went out of my way to make sure this would not happen again. I took full responsibility for my actions. I was not an FBI informant in Operation Bullpen. There was one informant involved and he was the only one that the FBI needed. <br /><br />Tim Fitzsimmons asked me if I would do a radio show. I said yes. He asked if I would answerer questions for people that got stuck from other companies selling bad merchandise. I said yes. He asked me if I would supply information to SCD. I said yes. <br /><br />The FBI returned most of the merchandise they confiscated from me because the merchandise was deemed to be authentic. Score Board, UDA, Mounted Memories and signings from shows.<br /><br />I was the one who contacted HBO and helped to bring all this to light. <br /><br />I am not a saint and never will be. I do know forgeries and that is something no one can deny. There is no time limit on knowledge. <br /><br />When I was asked if I could help Tracercode I said yes. Tracercode going out of business had nothing to do with the authenticating side of the business. <br /><br />Micah if you said you came up to me and talked to me then please tell me your real name. You know who I am, yet I don't know who you are. Hiding behind a made up name on a forum makes it easy to do what you do. Let us all know who you really are and where you are located. I feel that if you can call me names and know my history, I deserve to know who you are.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of

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02-03-2008, 11:10 AM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>"Micah" did email me previously. It was a long time ago and is absolutely buried in hundreds of emails. I will try to find it and send you his name and contact info. He has not emailed me again. I have 0 tolerance for this particular kind of anonymity....regards

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02-03-2008, 11:14 AM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Thanks Leon.<br />As to the question about scans. Here is a perfect example of not needing this baseball in hand.<br /><br /> <a href="http://tinyurl.com/ywspc9" target="_new">http://tinyurl.com/ywspc9</a><br /><br />edited link<br />

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02-03-2008, 11:25 AM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Shelly, funny how the government doesn't always require restitution from its cooperators and even allowed you to have your merchandise back instead of liquidating it and giving the money to victims. I'm sure you'll agree that such a practice is wrong.<br /><br />

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02-03-2008, 11:25 AM
Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Shelly has made some good points here. At least he has come clean here and stated his side ,which is more than I can say for alot of others.

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02-03-2008, 11:31 AM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>"To answer Micah, I have never sold a forged Ripken ball in my life.As to the Ted Williams balls they came from B and J collectibles or Score Board. The reason I bought from these companies is that Greg Moreno could not forge Ted Williams' signature very well. You claim to have bought these items from me, show me the receipt. I very rarely sold to the public. I sold mostly to dealers who knew what they where getting. I issued receipts for all the items I sold. Show me the receipt that I issued to you for Ripken. "<br /><br />I absolutely purchased these items from you. I returned these items along with Tiger Woods golf balls from Stan's Sports as well as a Bulls team signed ball from them to the FBI. I dealt with a female agent in the Sand Diego office shortly after everything came down. Why would I have approached a man headed to prison for the refund? I did exactly what SCD instructed buyers to do. I have yet to receive a refund. Not only was I not refunded but I know of at least a half dozen other dealers who sent bad items back and received nothing. In defense of the FBI, I was told on the front end that I may not receive the iems back or a refund and that it would be part of evidence. <br /><br />"The court never asked me to pay back anyone I sold to. I did it anyway. Micah, if I sold you bogus items, why did you not attempt to obtain a refund from me?"<br />Give us some references. I and others would love to hear or see names of anyone who received a refund from you. <br /><br />"Micah if you said you came up to me and talked to me then please tell me your real name. You know who I am, yet I don't know who you are. Hiding behind a made up name on a forum makes it easy to do what you do. Let us all know who you really are and where you are located. I feel that if you can call me names and know my history, I deserve to know who you are."<br /><br />My real name is Micah. Leon has my full name and email. Not only did I come up to you at the National but there were others who witnessed it. I will contact them and ask permission to either use their names or have them post themselves regarding our conversation. You gave us a short version of events that made me, for the time, feel some empathy for you. You stated to me that you were caught up in this because you were tired of going to shows and competing against the guys selling forgeries. You regretted your actions, paid your time, etc. I have an issue with you claiming that you rarely dealt with the public. Were you not the same Shelly that would set up at the Frank and Sons warehouse show and others in the area from about 92 through 98? I was at these shows. At the National and through phone calls to Bill Flemming and to SCD I stated my beilief to you and others that you had no business being associated with autographs and you politely dissagreed. When Kevin Nelson's in depth, investigaive book was published which detailed many aspects of Operation Bullpen and your activities that the public was not aware of, I became aware that your version of events given to me by you at the National was at best sugar coated and bordered on out and out lies. While you looked me in the eye at the National and painted yourself as alomst a victim yourself, the book tells a different tale. Kevin Nelson reported that you actually auditioned these forgers. You called Marino to your home to see what he could do for you in terms of forgeries...you sought him out, not the other way. Is Kevin Nelson and the FBI signing off on this version wrong? That to me is much different than the version you have given to me and the readers of SCD. I believe Kevins account over your sugar coated version. The FBI had to sign off on every single fact that was printed before it could be published. I honestly believe that anyone who reads Kevins book and the facts will agree with me that you do not belong anywhere near the autograph business again. When you read the SCD article and your version of events and then read the book by Kevin Nelson, you are given completely different pictures. If anyone has the original interview or article from Krause, please read it, then go buy the book and compare.<br /><br />It amazes me that you would come on this forum and continue to defend yourself by stating you bought items from B and J and Scoreboard and that is why your buyers ended up with forgeries. You auditioned forgers for Gods sake! You willfully sought out Marino and employeed his services. This is not Scoreboards fault. This is not B and J's fault. It is yours and yours alone. It is sad to see that you are still trying to paint yourself as a victim by pointing to B and J and Scoreboard. I encourage everyone to buy Kevin Nelson book...it is a great read.

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02-03-2008, 11:40 AM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>Leon-Please provide your email once again, I will glady email you as I did before. Thanks

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02-03-2008, 11:43 AM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>Shelly-Feel free to email me anytime, I will tell you the same as I am here. I don't mind you having my info. I just don't feel comfortable posting it for the rest of the world. Thanks!

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02-03-2008, 11:47 AM
Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Well Shelly,<br />Micah seems to know an awful lot about the whole story. It would be hard for me to believe that all he has said is just some made up pack of lies to make you look bad! I think its time you answer some of his statements.

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02-03-2008, 11:56 AM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>I will be out the rest of the day to a basketball game but will respond to anything else this evening. I still need Leons email

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02-03-2008, 12:07 PM
Posted By: <b>Sean</b><p>I was ripped off last year by a guy named carl meyer to the tune of $500 for a fake autograph of ty cobb on a 1960 fleer. After doing some investigating I found others who were victims of his mail fraud. One of them told me that he works directly with Christopher Morales.<br />If abyone ever gets anything form carl meyer or a Joe Butler through the mail throw it out! I had purchased something from carl on ebay that I found out later was fake. a few months later I get a catalog from a joe Butler with unbelievable autograph prices (shoudl abeen my first clue. He had me make my M.O. out to carl meyer and I didnt put it together until after he cashed it who he was. I found his ebay user name and sure enough, hes bought an unsigned 1960 ty cobb fleer. I end up getting the "autographed" card and low and behold----- SAME CARD. Same creasing, corner wear, etc.<br />Coaches corner and STAT authentic are bad news. Why they arent shut down is beyond me.

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02-03-2008, 12:20 PM
Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Meyer is "sonnysports". We have talked about him on the board before. Handwritten flyers with all the names you could possibly want. Does STAT and Morales even know about this thread? <br /><br />DJ<br /><br />edit: <br /><br />P.S Micah, Leon's e-mail is listed at the top of the thread of the site where you can contact the moderator.

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02-03-2008, 12:30 PM
Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>I would be very wary of any Cobb-signed Fleers. I have certainly never seen a legitimate example. I have seen two Hornsbys and a really nice Vance, however. Has anyone on this forum encountered an authentic Fleer Cobb? I don't know the exact release date of the 1960 Fleer set, but, considering Cobb likely had +/- one year to sign these, chances are pretty slim. Judging by the players who I HAVE often encountered on the 1960's Fleer issues, these signed sets were not popularly collected until the very late 1960's.

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02-03-2008, 12:38 PM
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Am I to assume that anything from ScoreBoard is suspect?<br /><br />Steve

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02-03-2008, 12:53 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>My email is on every single post I ever make on this board. All anyone has to do is click on it. My email is also at the top of almost every page where it says contact the moderator. I have never been accused of being hard to get a hold of <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>......and my cell # is 214-282-4943<br />regards

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02-03-2008, 12:54 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>There is a question about fake Scoreboard COA's being circulated in the hobby. I don't think that Shelly is accusing Scoreboard of anything.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-03-2008, 01:25 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Micah emailed me with his full name and contact info....I think he and Shelly have already emailed each other off line. That satisfies the anonymity aspect of this thread.....best regards

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02-03-2008, 01:26 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Sean - Carl Meyer has been around for over 20 years. <br />I had thought he was long gone, not having heard about him for some time, but was made aware of his presence about a year ago.<br /><br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-03-2008, 02:06 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I did not say that the Score Board items where bad. All I said is that is one place where I bought the Williams balls.<br /> I opened this thread so we could talk about Morales and STAT and to reply to Morales statements. These are the guys that authenticate for CC. The ones you rip every week or so. I am not the bad guy is this story. I might be a felon and piece of garbage to some of you but this thread was not about me it was about showing who these authenticators really are.

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02-03-2008, 02:35 PM
Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>"Does STAT and Morales even know about this thread?"<br /><br />I emailed Chris to let him know of this thread and that his response was requested.<br /><br />He emailed me back, the following message:<br /><br />"I am in Mongolia on a forensic project as a contractor for the U.S. Government. I will be home on 2/11 and can deal with this then."<br /><br /><br />So now he knows about this thread.

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02-03-2008, 03:54 PM
Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>All I can say is that the autograph business makes the card business look clean. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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02-03-2008, 03:58 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I've stayed out of this thread but have been reading it. One thought, however, does come to mind:<br /><br />Could there be a more reprehensible area of the hobby than autograph collecting? Fraud seems to be the norm, and the number of bad sellers and bad authenticators strains the imagination. How does anybody even enjoy this? It absolutely stinks.<br /><br />Thanks you, and please carry on.

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02-03-2008, 04:19 PM
Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>I couldn't agree with you more Barry.

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02-03-2008, 04:28 PM
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>I agree Barry. The only auto's I have in my collection are those that I got in person. <br /><br /><br />Steve

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02-03-2008, 04:55 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>The only autographs I pursue are team signed minor league balls that no one would ever waste time forging.<br /><br />I really don't know how anyone could spend big money on autographs - the horror stories are all too common.

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02-03-2008, 05:13 PM
Posted By: <b>FGN</b><p>Is this thread going to turn into a bunch of card guys bashing the autograph hobby now? I for one collect both and it would be nice if any input would serve to further the direction of this thread. It seems as though there is some real interest in the topic and that Shelly has touched a nerve or two. We all know the autograph hobby has its problems but what area of collecting doesn't. It's not like this forum doesn't have a page dedicated to trimming, soaking and otherwise altering baseball cards. I mean a seasoned autograph collector who can, for the most part, detect a forged signature (lets say someone with autograph knowledge comparable to Barry's knowledge about cards) might read this forum and say:<br /><br />"Could there be a more reprehensible area of the hobby than <u>card</u> collecting? Fraud seems to be the norm, and the number of bad sellers and bad authenticators strains the imagination. How does anybody even enjoy this? It absolutely stinks."

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02-03-2008, 06:12 PM
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>FGN (is that your real name?)- that is a fair point and I know that autographs are widely collected. But I find this thread profoundly depressing as one scoundrel, or reformed scoundrel, confronts another. Why are there so many bad autographs in the hobby? It seems to me that any shady character can have a field day faking signatures, and I for one stay as far away from them as possible.<br /><br />No question there is stuff that goes on with baseball cards. But this thread is a lulu.

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02-03-2008, 06:17 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>In about 10 minutes your post is going to be deleted if you don't put your name by it.....nothing personal. The rules are the rules....<br /><br />edited to say FDN has emailed me. he doesn't want to make his name public but I will share his name privately if need be....

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02-03-2008, 06:30 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>The only cards I own are commons of the teams that I root for or have rooted for, cards that no one would ever waste time trimming, bleaching, erasing, reproducing, staining, coloring, restoring, stretching, aging, etc.<br /><br />I would never spend big money on cards - the horror stories are all too common.<br />---<br /><br /> <br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-03-2008, 06:33 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>But Richard, an altered card is still a card. A fake autograph is a piece of garbage. And the FBI claims that about 70% of all autographs are fakes; certainly the card market doesn't suffer from such a high rate of fraud.

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02-03-2008, 06:44 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>Jeff - The FBI said 70% of the autograph market was fake. When the Marino family was riding high that might have been true. I am fairly certain it is not that high now, though it is certainly higher than the percentage of bogus cards. It is probably higher in the entertainment end of it than in the sports end.<br />And my post was meant partially to lighten up the mood here, not as a condemnation of card collecting <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br />I was just giving a little elbow to Dan Bretta for his post. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />--<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-03-2008, 08:38 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>Eric - I was wondering what the weather was like in Mongolia at 4 30 am when your e mail to Mr Morales was answered. <br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-03-2008, 09:58 PM
Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>Richard,<br /><br />I guess I should state that I have no ties to Morales. I just want to see where this thread goes, and thought I'd help. I used to collect autographs, but have decided to part ways with the hobby. I don't like where it is today, or where it's going. Vintage cards is what I'm all about. <br /><br />That being said I emailed Chris to let him know of this thread, so he could answer the questions that were asked of him.<br /><br />The response I got back from him was at 9:18am, which means he would have responded at either 8:18pm or 9:18pm in Mongolian time zones, which is reasonable.<br /><br />So if he won't be back until 2/11 to respond, this thread needs to stay towards the top and hopefully it won't get locked down before then. <br /><br />

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02-03-2008, 10:10 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Richard, Touche.<br /><br />That's two "Touches" in one thread. Two too many! <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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02-03-2008, 10:12 PM
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>But Richard, an altered card is still a card. A fake autograph is a piece of garbage. And the FBI claims that about 70% of all autographs are fakes; certainly the card market doesn't suffer from such a high rate of fraud.<br /><br /><br />That would be the coin market.<br /><br /><br />lol<br /><br /><br />Steve

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02-03-2008, 10:14 PM
Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>I know, getting off track here, but what plagues the coin market? <br /><br />I know absolutely nothing about coins.

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02-03-2008, 10:25 PM
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Eric<br /><br />Email sent.<br /><br />Steve

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02-03-2008, 10:31 PM
Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>Thanks Steve, I appreciate it.<br /><br />You learn something new every day.

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02-03-2008, 11:18 PM
Posted By: <b>brian</b><p>I had about 10 Scoreboard certified signed baseballs obtained in the late 1990s. A few years ago, sent them in to PSA/DNA and they all passed. Two of them were DiMaggio and Bench.

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02-04-2008, 04:09 AM
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>How will the Mongolian government react if eventually Morales was to have his good name publicly dragged through the mud? I guess the U.S. government does hire people with dubious credentials.

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02-04-2008, 08:54 AM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>Yesterday after my post to Shelly that included some very pointed questions, Shelly wisely chose to take our discussion "off forum" I wish the forum would allow me to post these "private emails" but I understand it is against policy. I will of course follow the policy. What I would like to do however is to bring Shelly back in front of the public. Through the course of these private emails, one thing became apparent, Shelly is still trying to dish out half truths and sugar coated versions of his past. Shelly continues to dodge my questions and ask me "What does this have to do with STAT and Chris Morales?" To be claar, I have no ties to those dealers and to be honest have never had any dealings with those dealers/authenticators in any form or fashion. I have my own issues with numerous items I see in CC auctions.<br /><br />1. I have yet to get Shelly to answer specificall who he has given refunds to. Not a single name of a reimburssed vistim. So once again Shelly, can you back up this claim?<br /><br />2. Shelly originally denied ever dealing with the public on a regular basis. Not only did I witness him set up at shows in So Cal but in the last 24 hours I have spoken with other collectors and dealers that can attest to this. I have sent out emails directing them to this site and I am sure some will be posting here as well. When I confronted Shelly with the fact that their are other dealers that can back up my caims that he did sell his fakes to the public, his response was.......drumroll please.......<br /><br />SHELLY NOW ADMITS THAT HE DID DO SOME SHOWS BUT THAT WHEN HE SAT UP AT THESE SHOWS HE ONLY SOLD REAL STUFF AND LEFT THE FAKES AT HOME!<br /><br />My question for the educaed attornies, collectors, prosecutors, et all of this forum: Am I the only person that thinks this excuse is plain laughable? Honestly, does anyone believe that Shelly would have gained a moment of clarity here and decided in the middle of selling fakes and forgeries to suddenly offer only real stuff when he sat up at shows? I honestly want the forums feedback on this and welcome any further explanation from Shelly<br /><br />3. After denying selling Cal Ripken balls and being confronted with his own printed quotes regarding the sell of Ripken balls, his response was basiclly: Ok, you are right, I did sell Ripken balls but they were real.<br /><br /><br />I hope everyone now sees what I was expressing these last 48 hours. Shelly seems to have one version while the facts state another and his story evolves daily. Shelly's response to the Operation Bullpen book was that there were mistakes in the book and that the FBI did not have to sign off on this. I reconfirmed yesterday that the book was approved by the FBI. The books author will confirm this. I asked Shelly if the part in the book where he sought out and auditioned Greg Marino to be his forger of choice were accurate and he has not answered me directly as of yet.<br /><br /><br />Once again, please give me feedback regarding Shelly's calim that he only sold real items at shows. I am not a criminal profiler but it just sounds like more of the same baloney I was fed that day at the National. I think if someone is going to be labeled reformed, their needs to be a 100% honest accountability.

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02-04-2008, 09:03 AM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>Micah - any word on the receipts you obtained from Shelly when you bought from him or from the FBI when you turned over your items to them?<br />You seem to be avoiding that issue in every post you have made.<br />Do these documents exist or not??<br />You would have a lot more credibility if you could produce those documents.<br />Right now it's he said - he said. Let us see some evidence of your claims of purchasing from Shelly and turning over your items to the FBI.<br />--<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-04-2008, 09:13 AM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>There is no he said, she said here. I turned these items over to the FBI. My employeer and I was contacted by them in the form of a letter originally because we bought items from a company called Overtime Prowear. Our name was on their list of buyers they obtained from Overtime Prowears records. This led to me turning over the other items from the other named sellers, Shelly and Stans Sports. I may have the originall letter from 2000 but not sure. I can bring a lot of other collectors to this forum that turned over items that never received a return or a single letter or response. How do you say "he said she said" when I am referencing a published book that was approved by the FBI?

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02-04-2008, 09:16 AM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>Micah - you still have not provided receipts to substantiate your claims.<br />A receipt for your purchase and a receipt from the FBI to establish that you did give them the questionable items.<br />Simple questions - Did you get receipts when buying these items? Did you get receipts from the FBI when you turned them over? If so, lets see them.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-04-2008, 09:19 AM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>Yes, any paperwork we had 8 years ago was turned over to the FBI with the items. Any coa or receipt we had went there. Can I make it any clearer?.

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02-04-2008, 09:27 AM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>How about the receipt from the FBI when you turned over everything to them? From what I understand, and correct me if I am wrong, that is standard FBI procedure.<br />And I still don't understand how you claim the FBI approves publication of a book. This is still the United States of America with a Constitution. FBI approval, possibly with the exception of quotes from the agents, is not necessary in this country. We are still a democracy, not a Fascist state.<br />If the books author did get FBI approval of the book, I would love to see his e mail to you about that.<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-04-2008, 09:33 AM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>We never receieved anything fromm them except for the original letter which already had the inventory in the letter. It amazed me that they had the record of every item we bought. My employeer may need to chime in here. He was the one who had the inital contact. I will give him a call and see if he received anything besides the original letter. I know I personally did not. I think the whole organized refund program came after Stan pled down. That did not start until 2004. Early on, the FBI was very upfront about the procedure. They explained that by turning the items over we were not guaranteed that we would get them back or receieve a refund. We understood this from the beginning. A lot of buyes never received restitutution. Do you think you can get Shelly to come on here and provide the buyers he refunded? Also, can you get him to confirm or deny that he did audition Greg Marino as the FBI approved published book states? Any help would be appreciated.

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02-04-2008, 09:37 AM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>I think that Shelly has admitted that he did audition Greg Marino. As far as I know, he has not denied that.<br />And please, I would love to see the e mail from the author stating that the FBI approved the book. I read the book, I still have the book and I don't see anything on the cover that says approved by the FBI and I don't remember reading any such thing when I did read the book.<br />--<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-04-2008, 09:38 AM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>Call the author of the book, it is his claim. I think, not certain, but am quite sure that it is even stated in the book. I gave my copy away after reading it but just ordered another through Amazon yesterday. When I get it in hand this week, I will be posting some information from the book. Believe me, the FBI can certainly stop publication of a book if they think they are being sourced and it is inaccurate. It happened with the original version of the outed CIA opertaive, Valery Plamme (sp.?) book

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02-04-2008, 09:44 AM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>I believe the Valerie Plame book was redacted by the CIA. I don't know if the FBI had anything to do with that book. And she was a CIA agent, an entirely different situation. They can pre approve anything an agent writes, but Mr Nelson is certainly not an FBI agent, FBI pre approval was not necessary.<br />Here is a quote from one of your prior posts:<br />"I reconfirmed yesterday that the book was approved by the FBI. The books author will confirm this." <br />Did you contact the books author for this confirmation?<br />Phone? E mail?<br />--<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss<br />--<br />edited for typo

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02-04-2008, 09:46 AM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>Shelly neve admitted it to me and the word "audition" has never been quoted by Shelly except in the book. The version I received from him at the National, the version I believed for a while, was completely different than what is portrayed in the book. Until the book came out, Shelly explained in SCD he was simply caught up in the process and couldn't compete at the shows any longer with sellers selling bad items. I guess I can compare it like this: Someone gets caught snorting coke. They explain that they were in a room at a party and it was offered to them and before they knew it, they were caught up in a bad decison they regrettted. Then you find out the culprit actually called a drug dealer, drove acorss town and sought the drug out himself. You have a little less sympathy on the last version. Understood? Maybe thats a bad analogy. Do you have an knowledge of Shelly returning money to duped buyers?

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02-04-2008, 09:49 AM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>I initially confirmed by phone and reconfirmed through my employeer who also spoke with the author over a year ago. I am fairly certain this claim is in the book itself. Lets sit tight and I will report when the book comes in this week. Are you the Simon that did the cool sports art prints in the 80's?

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02-04-2008, 09:53 AM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>No I am not the Simon that did sports prints in the 1980s.<br />I can barely draw a straight line, so my art would not bring very much $$.<br />I am in the autograph business and have been for a long time.<br />---<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-04-2008, 09:54 AM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>Richard-Do you personally believe Shelly's claim that he only would sell real items at the shows?

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02-04-2008, 09:58 AM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>According to my understanding Shelly was an honest seller at shows, until he could not do much business due to the crooks. He got frustrated by all the crooks undercutting his business, so that is why he started to sell bogus items. I have worked with Shelly in the past, as stated in a prior post and I think he is now an honest guy and has worked hard to try and clean up much of the crap that goes on in this business.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-04-2008, 09:59 AM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>Heading out for my weekly penance and then to friends for the big game pre party. I will respond to anything after the gane late tonigt or early tomorow.

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02-04-2008, 09:59 AM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I will say this one more time. What ever anyone thinks of me, liar, cheat, scumbag. It has nothing to do with what the thread was all about. I am answering Morales challenge as to his what he said about the HBO show. <br />Micha can write and say what ever he wants. I really don't care. If I said black he would say white.

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02-04-2008, 10:24 AM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I can completely understand that Micah is frustrated. He was sold a bunch of crap and never got compensated for it. However the person involved in the crime did the time that was given him and has come here to try and get STAT to answer for the crap they are pumping in to the autograph hobby. Micah has completely derailed this post when he should have either started his own post or taken it to email. Not that I think STAT has the courage to answer to these questions, but the more pressure put on them the better.

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02-04-2008, 07:18 PM
Posted By: <b>micahg</b><p>Richard:<br />From a December 27, 2006 article in The Anderson Valley Post:<br /><br />Back in 2001, Da Babe traveled to Hawaii for Krause’s annual trade conference where “Operation Bullpen” was a main topic.<br /><br />Tim Fitzsimmons, the FBI agent in charge of the operation, and Phil Halpern, the assistant U.S. attorney who prosecuted the cases, were featured speakers. They also sat down with me for interviews.<br /><br />Reading Nelson’s book reminded me of just how widespread the forgeries were and possibly still are. We’re talking thousands and thousands of consumers defrauded to the tune of millions and millions of dollars.<br /><br />In the end, 63 people were arrested and prosecuted. Those 63 folks operated 15 rings—with a forger at the center of each of those enterprises.<br /><br />Investigators parlayed an undercover operative’s work, a wire tap and a key player agreeing to cooperate with them to bring down the forgery rings.<br /><br />After breezing through Nelson’s book, I touched base with Fitzsimmons and Halpern to see if the book was accurate and how they felt about the whole process.<br /><br />FITSIMMONS SAID HE WORKED WITH NELSON AS THE BOOK WAS DEVELOPED AND IS SATISFIED WITH ITS ACCURACY. Halpern said he has yet to read the book.<br /><br />As for “Operation Bullpen” and its results, both said they were glad that the cases focused attention on the major problem of forgery.<br /><br />“I am extremely pleased we were able to highlight to the public the dangers of buying memorabilia,” Halpern said.<br /><br />

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02-04-2008, 09:55 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>Micah - an FBI agent who cooperated with an author on a book is a lot different than stating that the FBI approved the book. If the FBI has to approve books we may as well tear up the Constitution, and let the redcoats come back.<br />Tim Fitzsimmons was the major player for the government in Operation Bullpen, how could he not have cooperated with the author of the book.<br />I think we should agree to disagree and end this part of the thread. You have your opinion, I have mine, neither of us is going to change.<br />--<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-04-2008, 10:12 PM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>Richard-yep, . we are splitting hairs here. The main question for me: Is the book accurate? It appears, sadly, to be true in all aspects. When I asked Shelly four seperate times if it were true regarding the authors version of him auditioning forgers, twice on here and twice in emails, I got the run around and mentions of inaccuracies with the book. I spoke with the author by phone today again. He stands by everyhing in the book and would love to hear from anyone regarding innacuracies. He did state to me that their was no "Official Approval" from the FBI before it could go to printing but that the agent Fitzsimmons worked with him with every aspect of the book and personally approved it all. He also agreed that any interview with the FBI for the book would have approval before printing. Kevin is a serious author and the last thing he would want to do is print a bunch of rumors. Anyone can order his book online. He will even sign the book. And yes, the signature will be authentic! <br /><br />

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02-05-2008, 09:34 AM
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>My mother told me at a very young age "Your reputation is everything"<br /><br />While I have made my share of mistakes one thing I have always tried to do in this business, be it cards, autographs, or anything i sold as a collectable was to be honest in the description and never shady in any aspect of this business.<br /><br />Everyone is entitled to a second chance, lets just hope that when given that second chance the person does indeed take advantage of it and not do whatever got them into trouble again.<br /><br /><br />Yes, it sucks not being able to get your money back. The courts for some reason did not think that was important.<br /><br />JMHO<br /><br />Steve

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02-05-2008, 12:53 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Steve, the FBI set up a special program for people that wanted their money back. If Micha sent golf balls he bought from Stan's he was sent his money. If he sent the baseballs that he said I sold him I would get a letter from the probation officer and I would have refunded his money.<br />The one thing I don't understand in all of this is the fact that he had my phone number and address because it was on my certs. In an e mail he sent to me he stated that he called me on the phone. Why has it taken him eight years to tell me I sold him two items. He has asked for me to prove that I paid everyone back. I just got off the phone with Tim Fitzsimmons who said he would be happy to take Micha's call. He will attest to the fact that to the best of his knowledge I paid everyone back. He will also tell Micha that if sent any items from me tothe FBI I would be told to send him his refund. Tim can be reached at 1-520-623-4306.I also emailed Micha my number and asked to call. No reply.<br />I really think it is time for us to go back to what this thread was about. Morales and Stat Authenitics. If you think that I hurt the hobby please look at the joke that is the latest CC auction. <br /> <br /><br /><br />

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02-05-2008, 01:05 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I am not taking sides on this but as far as I can tell you have made every attempt to appease each and every person that was defrauded, even getting the FBI agent involved again. I hope the other parties are as willing to answer the questions you have posed. best regards

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02-05-2008, 04:08 PM
Posted By: <b>Josh Siegel</b><p>Maybe Micah should just send these autographs to Coaches Corner. They may be out of business someday and there will be no where to sell fake autos?

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02-05-2008, 05:26 PM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>I'm the former employer refereed to in Micah's post. I was present when Micah spoke to Jaffe in 2003 in Atlantic City. It was an unmemorable event. I see why Micah thinks he wasn't shot straight that day. It was Bill Flemming from Tracer code who mostly spoke. It was Bill Flemming who gave the rosy picture of Shelly, not Shelly himself. Shelly was busy with multiple conversations at the booth. Jafee never corrected Bill on any of the rosy scenarios of Shelly's past and may not have heard them.<br /><br />I personally handled the return of merchandise discussed here in either March or April of 2000 to the San Diego office of the FBI. Micah's memory and account of these events are correct.<br /><br />I've known Shelly for several years. I've had many phone conversations with Shelly.<br /><br />Micah is one of the most honest people I know.<br />I believe Shelly to be doing his best to spread good will in the autograph world.<br /><br />Since I was referenced in this post and know both parties, I called Shelly today. After speaking with Shelly, he recalls our conversation in Atlantic City. After recalling the talk, Shelly offered to pay Micah for the two items in question. You can't ask for anything better than that. End of story.

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02-05-2008, 05:28 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I agree with John that what he said is fact.

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02-05-2008, 06:19 PM
Posted By: <b>micah</b><p>I want to thank John for getting involved and coming on the forum to back up my claims...he didnt have to. I also want to thank Shelly for the offer to refund my money. The FBI was given the items 8 years ago so I will decline but appreicate it immensely. My items were given back 4 years before the refund program began. Had I known then what I know now, I would have waited the 4 years before sending my items to them. Other dealers could say the same thing. Just the fact that Shelly has acknowledged the conversation in AC and has offered the refund satisfies me. Thank you Shelly and thank you John. Shelly and I will agree to disagree on other issues and let bygones be bygones.

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02-05-2008, 06:31 PM
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Sounds like a plan.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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02-05-2008, 06:31 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>Glad to see that this matter is being settled, thank you Shelly, thank you Micah, thank you John.<br />Let's get this thread back to where it belongs.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-06-2008, 11:29 PM
Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Now that everything is worked out between the parties dominating this thread, it looks like STAT isn't interested in partaking in this thread to explain anything and we will have to await for Malaysia to get back from Morales.<br /><br />I was poking around the site (www.myccsa.com to check out the scans) and found a few interesting thinngs.<br /><br />Lot #1 Jack Chesbro single-signed "Stat Authentic" baseball. <br /><br />CCSA: This near impossible to find, HOF worthy ball comes already pre-certified and approved as authentic by the team at Stat Authentic and book value approaches $40,000. It is a dark brown ball, vintage look and comes black ink, side panel signed by the long deceased HOF'er. Ball itself is a dark 2 while the signature stands out against the dark background, can be seen and read with ease and grades an honest 4 I'd say. You'll never find another one this nice and as always, we keep the minimum low enough so everyone can have a chance to bid. <br /><br />Comment: The item they say is valued at $40,000 and that is probably a tad low as this would be the only know example of Chesbro on ball form outside of a handful Pirates reunion balls. What does "pre-certify" mean exactly?<br /><br />CCSA Prices Realized: This ball sold in $2,095. <br /><br />Lot #3 Cap Anson Autographed Stat Authentic Certified Baseball. <br /><br />CCSA: WOW! This unmarked, slightly reduced-size baseball has red laces and shows lots of wear and handling. It comes signed on the left-side of the sweet spot by this much sought-after baseball HOF legend. The signature is in black ink and "A.C. Anson" style. The signature shows off nicely and grades a 6-6.5 overall! Fully certified by the expert authentication team at STAT AUTHENTIC and book value is over $50,000. <br /><br />Comment: Wow! December 2006, Mastro Auctions sold what Mastro considered to be the "only" single signed Anson baseball. It commanded $73,424. The signature was not as nice as this CCSA offering. <br /><br />CCSA Prices Realized: This ball sold for $3,356.<br /><br />Lot #7 Dan Brouthers single-signed "Stat Authentic" baseball. <br /><br />CCSA: This impossible to find ball is heavily used and soiled and book valued at $30,000. To my best recollection, we have never seen one of these balls for sale before and what a super Cooperstown investment chance. It is a deep brown soiled and game used ball, comes black ink, side panel signed by the long deceased HOF pioneer and is pre-certified for your convenience by Stat Authentic. Ball itself is a 2 while the sought after signature is a legible 4 and can be read from 7 feet away with ease. <br /><br />Comment: $30,000 is WAY low. This again would be the only known example of his signature on a baseball. Another auction could easily get twice that or even more.<br /><br />CCSA Prices Realized: This ball sold for $ 2,084<br /> <br />Lot #7: Charles Comiskey single-signed "Stat Authentic" baseball. <br /><br />CCSA: This must have "Black Sox" offering comes from the tight wad, HOF owner and books near $20,000. It is a deep brown ball, comes black ink, side panel signed by "Commie" and can be seen from 7 feet away with ease. Ball itself is a heavily used and soiled 2, while the sought after, scarce signature grades a 3.5 or better. Nice display ball, already certified as real by Jeff and Ted over at Stat Authentic and with our always low asking price apparent. <br /><br />CCSA Prices Realized: This ball sold for $1,542. <br /><br />In Closing:<br /><br />So let's use Coach's Corners estimates. <br /><br />$140,000 worth of vintage, "impossible to find", "one of a kind rarities" for $9,000!<br /><br />All authenticated by the fine folks at STAT.<br /><br />DJ<br />

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02-06-2008, 11:47 PM
Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>but I think that is the third Chesboro ball they've offered recently. I'd never bid there or buy an item certified by STAT.

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02-07-2008, 05:21 AM
Posted By: <b>alan</b><p>What Coaches Corner is doing in the minds of just about everyone is criminal.However,equaliy reprehensable,is the conduct of SCD who gives them an avenue to sell this swill.SCD should stand next to Coaches Corner in a court of law WHEN the FBI gets around(way too long now)to rounding up these theives.SCD can no longer turn a blind eye to their biggest ad generator.Ignorance is no excuse.This has conspiracy written all over it.SCD has been reduced to a rag now but the editor should either close the paper down,go to a monthly,or cut this crap out before it is too late.<br /><br /> The single signed balls listed in the post above that were "sold" just dont exist.

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02-07-2008, 06:57 AM
Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>I haven't read all the posts in this thread so it's possible the following point has already been made.<br /><br />In the examples DJ cites, what surprises me is not that those items didn't sell for anywhere near $140k but that they sold for as much as $9k (assuming they in fact sold). If the signatures are genuine then $140k (or some correspondingly high number) is fair market value. If the signatures are not genuine, then the items are worth the value of the baseballs, perhaps discounted somewhat because they have been further degraded by bogus signatures. This value is probably a few dollars per ball, or less than $100 collectively. So why then would people bid even as much as $9k? Do they really think there is ANY chance the signatures are genuine and maybe it's worth rolling the dice and spending a few thousand dollars? Talk about a leap of faith?!

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02-07-2008, 08:38 AM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>I'm curious to get feedback from the autograph authorities of the board because I'm not one. If the Mastro Anson ball was in Coaches Corner and it did not have PSA or JSA but was the same ball Mastro sold, would anyone have bid? If the Coaches Corner ball was in Mastro and had PSA and JSA but was the same ball Coaches Corner sold, would it have pulled the same number? I'm curious to what degree you guys feel the buyers in the big auction houses are buying the ball or the LOA? I hope this isn't a stupid question.

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02-07-2008, 09:28 AM
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Actually it is a very good question, I too would like to hear this answer.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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02-07-2008, 10:02 AM
Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Interesting questions. I don't profess to be an autograph expert so my thoughts will be based on a collector's perspective. <br /><br />"If the Mastro Anson ball was in Coaches Corner and it did not have PSA or JSA but was the same ball Mastro sold, would anyone have bid?" -- Without provenance and/or a LOA from a respected authority, I don't believe the ball would have sold well in ANY auction, much less one with a questionable reputation.<br /><br />"If the Coaches Corner ball was in Mastro and had PSA and JSA but was the same ball Coaches Corner sold, would it have pulled the same number?" -- Assuming there was nothing about the ball that violated the "raise red flags from visual inspection test" (e.g., a 19th century jersey that looks like it just came off Modell's shelf), then yes, if it had comparable provenance/LOA to the other Anson ball Mastro sold and was in comparable condition, I believe it would have fetched a similar number to the price Mastro realized for that other ball.

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02-07-2008, 11:11 AM
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>The value is based primarily on the trust of those issuing the baseball. It's not about "what the signature" looks like anymore, but where does it come from and who authenticated the ball. IMO. Mastro "claims" that this is the only known baseball, but how are we to know that this is in fact an honest accessment to the quantity of balls out there? The fact that it was Mastro and that JSA and/or PSA/DNA says it's good, automatically puts in the minds of the general public that it is in fact good which is a naive system of thought, but the only one we have. <br /><br />That SAME ball from Mastro in CCSA would bring typical CCSA numbers simply based on reputation. After all, CCSA has a revolving door of rarities, thirteen times a year that sell for pennies on the dollar. There are so many collecting players out there with big bucks looking to buy and sell rarities and Coach's even last month, had cut signatures of John Clarkson, Buck Ewing, Oscar Charleston, Josh Gibson and why are great dealers like Kevin Keating staying away from these when they could easily get 10x-12x of what the final price Coach price was? Why doesn't Mastro (or the consignors) buy up the Coach inventory every month and put it in their auctions? <br /><br />People pay these prices because they want to truly believe that they are getting a bargain. It's the same reason people pay $5,000 for a T206 Wagner. <br /><br />I noted this before and the true villain here is Sports Collectors Digest and it's wonderful to see the hobby turn their back on what was once prominent and respectful voice. <br /><br />Bob<br /><br />I went back to the CCSA site to check something out and their new auction is up already. Among<br />the highlights: Josh Gibson signed pants (I think the last pair sold for under $200), 1939 Induction Baseball, Albert Einstein autographed baseball (they have sold a few of these in the past), Ed Cicotte signed bat, Jimmy Collins signed baseball, Chief Bender signed bat...

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02-07-2008, 11:36 AM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>And why are great dealers like Kevin Keating, Jim Stinson, Richard Simon (hope nobody minds that I added my name to the great dealers list <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ),Rich Albersheim, Ron Gordon, Bill Corcoran and Phil Marx staying away from these when they could easily get 10x-12x of what the final price Coach price was? <br />I would love to see CC come on this thread and answer some of these questions.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-07-2008, 11:47 AM
Posted By: <b>Dan</b><p>A few posts above, Corey had asked if people were willing to spend 1/10 hoping for a leap of faith. I would like to respond as a person who actually bought some items. I think it is actually a lack of information. I first stumbled across their auctions when I received a monthly flyer in the mail. Not being an autograph buyer, I just assumed that if they had a COA that were genuine. Luckily I found this forum and learned that this is not case. But that knowledge came a year to late and about $1,000 worth of bogus items. I learned an expensive but valuable lesson. I would also like to comment on Stat Authentic. I actually emailed both individuals (Ted Taylor and Jeff Stevens, they both claimed that the items were authentic in their "opinion". That is how they get around things, they state that it is their opinion that the items are authentic. The one gentleman (the one that used to work at the Babe Ruth Museum) was very nice and was willing to try and help. He even was willing to look at the items I had purchased without COA's and check them for me. The other gemntleman was angry (not at me) but at everyone that bad mouthed CC or Stat and even talked about filing libel suits. Obviously will never happen. Just thought I would give you some insite on why some people may be buying items. They just may not know.

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02-07-2008, 12:34 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I can tell one thing about CC. When they have an item from Psa,Jsa and other top authenticators the item goes for more than three times the amount than a similar item authenticated by Morales or STAT. I do hope Morales and STAT have the balls to come on this site and tell us just how they authenticate there items.

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02-07-2008, 12:41 PM
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Why don't we pitch in and place a full page ad in SCD touting the knowledge of this board? We don't even need to mention specific issues. People will be curious enough to check it out, and can read some of the threads for themselves.<br /><br />Maybe there is room on the home page for a small counter box for important threads that a new visitor could click on, such as this thread.<br /><br />It would be a small investment if we each kicked in 3 or 5 or 10 dollars each. The ad copy wouldn't take that long to write, and Leon could have final approval, assuming that he would want to do this at all (hi Leon). Nothing specific would need to be mentioned, just the general topics of discussion, free to join, monthly contests and prizes, already has major auction houses that contribute not just with ads, but with participation in the threads as well.<br /><br />If SCD rejected the ad, we know where they stand.<br /><br />If they accept it,, and just a few people came over and read about STAT, opinions on grading companies, etc., it could be enough to change the way some things are done. <br /><br />At the very least, maybe some of the new blood could add to the knowledge of this board, or maybe it will bring a collection of the woodwork. Who knows? At least it is a tangible action, with a low investment, that could produce some results.<br /><br />A lot of if's, but the outcome could tell us where the true collector really stands in this hobby/business, for a minimal investment. <br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br />

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02-07-2008, 12:47 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>It's always been my belief that the truth is a valid defense against a libel suit. That might be the reason we don't see responses from the associated parties and also the reason I doubt there would be a lawsuit, in my opinion.......regards

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02-07-2008, 12:52 PM
Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>I agree with Dan, that the majority of Coach's Corner Bidders are just uneducated and don't know a real autograph from a fake. They see these items featured in a major publication, and make the assumption that they must be authentic. They are "trusting souls" and simply believe what they WANT to believe. It is hard to envision so many people still falling into this category, but many just don't devote the time to educate themselves.<br /><br />But I believe there are 3 other contingents of bidders as well... <br /><br />A nominal percentage of these bidders probably think they are getting a "steal" and that they are turned on to this rather "obscure" auction house in which they can get much better deals than through the giant, overly publized Mastros, Lelands and REAs of the world. There is an assumption of exclusivity and a "greed factor" among this group.<br /><br />Collectors new to the hobby are more likely to bid in a CC Auction. They have not yet figured out that STAT is a sham. I have heard many stories from seasoned collectors, and how they got burned early in their collecting "careers". I think most of us have had similar learning experiences early-on.<br /><br />Finally, I know there are some who are purchasing these, knowing they are bad, and with the intention of re-selling them. These people have ways to peddle these pieces, and get big money in return. I recently took a trip to Las Vegas, and saw dozens of bogus pieces in a "Field of Dreams" type store on the strip. These autographs were nearly identical to the CC offerings, and were selling at HUGE prices. These may have even originated from Coach's Corner.... not even close to appearing authentic.<br /><br /><br />

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02-07-2008, 01:28 PM
Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Mark/Dan<br /> <br />What you say does make sense -- that the majority of purchasers are simply uneducated collectors who are unduly influenced by CC's advertising in a major hobby publication. These people I suppose believe no reputable major hobby publication would accept advertising from known unscrupulous auction houses. And that coupled with the LOAs lead them to believe not so much that they are getting a bargain but in fact that the selling prices reflect fair market value.<br /><br />So then a critical component to the "success" of CC's business model is (besides the LOAs) SCD advertising.

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02-07-2008, 01:54 PM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>My guess is that at this point there will not be responses from the mentioned companies. If I were in their shoes, I wouldn't respond myself. They probably read this and think "This is obviously not my target market on net54" If they were in a forum of 50/50 supporters and non-supporters, I would guess a response would be necessary to keep the 50% of their clients. With a 0% client base here, not a chance. Maybe if they plead their case hard enough they would win over one, two bidders??? Doubtful. Same reason SCP didn't respond when called out on the panorama. Same reason Bushing didn't respond during the Joe D. streak bat. Same reason Memory Lane Inc. didn't respond many times. I could go on and on. All of the just named dealers probably are a little too smart to not pick their battles wisely.

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02-07-2008, 01:59 PM
Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Corey...<br /><br />That's absolutely correct! The SCD component is a huge part of this. The fact that prospective bidders see these pieces in what they believe to be a reputable publication serves to "validate" these items.<br /><br />There have been many previous threads (some on the Memorabilia side) suggesting that SCD drop Coach's Corner like a bad habit. SCD must really be in quandary, as Coach's Corner is their biggest advertiser. Coach's Corner and Mr. Mint generate most of the revenue that currently keeps SCD afloat. Pretty pathetic, and certainly not an enviable position to be in...

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02-07-2008, 02:07 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>For the record Dave Bushing did respond to the Joe D Streak Bat controversy.

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02-07-2008, 03:49 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>"It's always been my belief that the truth is a valid defense against a libel suit. That might be the reason we don't see responses from the associated parties and also the reason I doubt there would be a lawsuit, in my opinion.......regards"<br /><br />Leon mentioned a lawsuit in his post on this thread.<br />A lawsuit would open up all parties involved in the discovery process. All information about their business practices would be open to scrutiny.<br />Think they want to do that?? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br /><br /> <br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-07-2008, 06:21 PM
Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>What would you do if you bought an item from CC and STAT authenicated it ? I did this with a Beatles album signed by all four ? It also had 2 other LOA. First, are all their items fakes? What percentage, and what is this based on ?<br /><br />Should I :<br /> 1) Send back to Coaches and have them put up for auction again and get some money back on the deal ? Cover some loses. 2) Send to another service to see if it is real ( PSA, etc) ? Who would you send it to for the best expert "opinion" ? This would cost another few hundred dollars. 3) Keep it ,learn my lesson and impress my friends thinking it is real. I really need to know what to do with this item. Thanks Mike ( long time card collector, auto novice)and never again unless in person !

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02-07-2008, 06:29 PM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>Great question Mike. I would like to hear board opinion if they sell any real autos or are all fake? If the Beatles album is certed by STAT, there is no chance PSA will cert it. Doesn't matter if its real or not. I have never heard of PSA certing a STAT item. I could be wrong but never seen or heard of this happening.

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02-07-2008, 06:29 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I can tell you right now. If you have had it more than 28 days they will refuse to take it back. I will also tell you if has been authenticated by STAT you can bet its not good. I am interested in who the other coa's are from. Don't waste your money getting them fully authenticated.If you want to do it on the cheap put the item up on Ebay and then get a quick opinion from psa for eight dollars.

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02-07-2008, 06:39 PM
Posted By: <b>Larry</b><p>Mike-<br /><br />I bought a signed Beatles album from Forever L*****S, an e bay autograph dealer lady that used Morales and Frangiapiani for forensic expertise when I was green about rock and roll autographs, they had over 1000+ feedback, all positives.<br /><br />Every album I bought was deemed fake by Larry Rosenbloom, UACC, PSA/DNA and James Spence, since not one of these guys knew each other graded the item, all said they looked like forgeries, and all said they were fakes. I also sent it to Mastro who consulted Frank C., NJ, a well known autograph expert regarding Beatles memorabilia and he deemed it fake also. <br /><br />The chances of getting a REAL signed rare album from Coaches Corner with a "forensic expert COA endorsement" by C Morales or D. Frangiapanni is very small. You can send the item to Mastro auctions, if it is real, they can get you thousands for it, otherwise they will return it. It cost me a thousand dollars to get 4 different people, all "experts" and all said it was fake. Signed rock and roll memorabilia is 90% FAKE since most groups were too busy or stoned in the 60's and 70's to sign these items and there are so many coming out of California that look good but are not.

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02-07-2008, 07:32 PM
Posted By: <b>..</b><p>...

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02-07-2008, 07:53 PM
Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>There are currently six complete signed Beatles items in CCSA's latest auction with one partial. <br /><br />Richard and Jodi. How many Josh Gibson autographs have you sold, seen or believe to exist?<br /><br />They have one every month...cuts, balls, bats, pants. I can't remember outside of the signed photo that was discovered and sold for $75K and a recent document, any other auction houses EVER selling one. <br /><br />DJ<br /><br />Oh, in regards to "back to card speak", Coach's Corner has a 9.5 graded PRO Ty Cobb T206 with the following description:<br /><br />The PSA online guide shows NONE graded higher than an 8, and their price guide says the value is $45,000+ for one graded a Mint 9, and this beauty is GRADED HIGHER. My estimate on value is $100,000 or more, as this MUST be the HIGHEST GRADED card known to exist.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=78798" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=78798</a><br />

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02-07-2008, 08:01 PM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>DJ<br />mastro sold a team ball with gibson. I was the consignor. It was new to the industry. A find in New York. Mid grade signatures. Sold right at 18,000 before the vig. I may be off a grand, it was 2-3 years ago.

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02-07-2008, 09:47 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Here is my favorite STAT piece for the evening.<a href="http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=77830" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=77830</a><br />STAT please respond.

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02-07-2008, 10:21 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Heroes of the Hobby!!!<br /><br /><a href="http://www.myccsa.com/Prohibited.aspx" target="_new">http://www.myccsa.com/Prohibited.aspx</a><br /><br />When will Stew P. Dasso be making an appearance on that list?

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02-07-2008, 10:29 PM
Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>If Coach's Corner actually believed their own Anson ball (or Chesbro ball, etc.) was authentic, they would be fools not to buy it outright for twice the auction price and consign it to Mastro. They know exactly what they are doing.

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02-07-2008, 10:55 PM
Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>John,<br /><br />I remember a multi-signed ball for auction about that time. Was it single signed? I'm having trouble remembering this item and way too lazy to go throw a tower of catalogs. <br /><br />Why is that your favorite Shel? Those are a dime a dozen. <br /><br />DJ<br /><br /> <br /><br />

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02-07-2008, 11:05 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>DJ, the reason I picked this one is that everyone can look at it and know just how bad it is. This is one of the worst forgeries I have ever seen. I just want STAT or Morales and CC to come on here and defend the garbage that they sell and authenticate. This one is so bad and the nice thing is that most of the players are alive and can testify to the fact the ball is garbage.

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02-08-2008, 07:21 AM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>The grand total of the legitimate Josh Gibson autographs I have seen/sold is zero. <br />How lucky can one seller be to have a constant supply of them?? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br />Guess those private signing items from 1946 are finally starting to show up in the market <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-08-2008, 08:56 AM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>DJ-it was not a single. It was a team ball. Original owner all these years. <br /><br />Richard-You have never seen a real Gibson single or Gibson in any form?

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02-08-2008, 09:24 AM
Posted By: <b>Scott Mt. Joy</b><p>Ok so I have read thru this thread and being an autograph novice, the one thing that hits me is why has the FBI or anyone else not done anything? It seems like it would be pretty easy to prove these auctions are fake so why has it not happened?

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02-08-2008, 10:26 AM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>By employing two Companies that don't know what there doing. SCD told CC that to advertise in there paper they must have certain items authenticated. CC corner will say to the FBI look I went out of our way to have these pieces authenticated as per SCD. The authenticators will tell the FBI it only our opinion and nothing but nothing can be done. Donald Farngiapni authenticated over 5 thousand items none of them where authentic.The FBI could do nothing because it was his opinion.

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02-08-2008, 10:31 AM
Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>REA in 2006 sold an autographed Josh Gibson postcard.

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02-08-2008, 10:35 AM
Posted By: <b>jay wolt</b><p>Shelly - it seems that SCD, Coaches Corner & STAT all have<br />a bye based on your scenerio. So if all still thrive in <br />business it will slowly kill the autograph market.<br />Its becoming a joke in this industry.

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02-08-2008, 10:49 AM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>That is why I started this thread, in hopes that they would have the balls to come on here and defend their skills. This is a total scam and SCD knows it. Rocky quit the sports side of Krause just for that reason.

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02-08-2008, 12:01 PM
Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>This all seems a little too cozy to me -- the notion that Coaches Corner can shield themselves from criminal or civil actions by saying they are relying on LOAs from an authentication service. Certainly from the civil perspective, it seems to me that if they have marquee items that are so rare that as a practical matter they never come up for sale (outside CC auctions) routinely selling for five to ten cents on the dollar, that they are being put on notice that the market doesn't believe the signatures are genuine, thereby imposing a duty on CC to get a second opinion from a reputable authority. If they do not or if they do and the opinion comes in that the signatures are bogus, and CC sells then anyway then I would think they would be very vulnerable to an action for fraud. Yes they will play the stupidity defense -- "how were we to know, we only relied on the LOA" -- but I think the law would impute fraudulent intent under the reasonable person standard. A criminal action would be more difficult because here the stupidity defense can come into play, but even with that I think it possible they might have a hard time persuading a trier of fact that they are really that stupid.

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02-08-2008, 12:54 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I am not above helping if I can...Maybe we we need to see what a 1 page ad would cost in SCD? Could be interesting. If I ever were to collect autographs they would be on official documents only or with impeccable provenance that didn't require a leap of faith the size of the Grand Canyon.....best regards (I would also add this thread to our archives if need be)....regards

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02-08-2008, 01:22 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Leon, I will bet you a dime to a dollar that SCD would turn down the add.

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02-08-2008, 01:24 PM
Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>I have actually held three truly legitimate Gibsons in my hands, and know of a small handful of others. Two were Puerto Rican League contracts, one was the postcard photo which has been sold by both REA and Mastro over the last few years. There is something really special about being that close to an in-demand autograph of such rarity. Charleston is actually tougher than Gibson--I think he's undervalued, even though prices are high.

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02-08-2008, 01:25 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>If nothing can be done to CC or SCD for perpetuating this scam then surely something can be done to the person forging these signatures. Forgery is a crime. Finding CC's supply line is the key to putting an end to it. That shouldn't be too hard. Just ask CC where they're getting all this stuff.

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02-08-2008, 02:24 PM
Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>I think CC gets a lot of their stuff from previous winning bids. My opinion ! The winner finds out it may be fake or no one else will say it's real and so the item is sent back to be auctioned again. The original winner probably didn't get a refund, but sending it back to be consigned you can cover some of your losses.

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02-08-2008, 05:23 PM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>Richard,<br /><br />Were you saying you've never seen a real Gibson single or Gibson in any form?<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />John<br />

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02-08-2008, 05:54 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>John - I made my answer pretty clear. There are very few Gibsons in the hobby and I don't recall ever having one in my hands.<br />I am not CC.<br /><br />Richard<br />--<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-08-2008, 05:56 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Mike, I am sure that might be true with some of the items but I have seen the same forger doing the same people over and over again one different items. It looks like there are two people that are doing the forgery. I have asked Richard as well as three other people I trust. They feel the same way as I do, that this is the work of two people and maybe a third on certain items.

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02-08-2008, 07:47 PM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>Richard,<br /><br />The reason I asked was that I owned a Gibson signature that was certed when the PSA/DNA team was working (You, Spence, Stinson, others) I had a high comfort level knowing the "team" had certed it. When you said you had never seen a real on, I was puzzled, a little worried about that one.

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02-08-2008, 08:54 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>John - the initial PSA team consisted of four people - Jim Spence, Jim Stinson, Ron Gordon and myself. Initially all four of us went out to PSA offices in California on a monthly basis and examined submissions. <br />Then PSA decided to have three of us come to California every month and rotated us into a three man working team.<br />It is possible that a Gibson was examined by the team when I was rotated out and was not there.<br />It is possible that I did see it when I was there but I just don't remember it. Sorry to have worried you.<br /><br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-09-2008, 07:19 AM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>Richard-,<br />Of all the authentication companies that have come and gone, I think the PSA/DNA "team" was the best. Its hard to have 4 experts not get it right. Any chance that concept will come around again?

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02-09-2008, 07:54 AM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>I would doubt it very much. We worked very well together, we enjoyed the work and I felt we did a great job. But the logistics made things difficult and scheduling and flying four guys in from all different parts of the country made it difficult.<br />If you can come up with 2/3 other guys from the Northeast and find a company to start this up, I am in.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-10-2008, 09:56 AM
Posted By: <b>Solomon</b><p>&lt;&lt;By employing two Companies that don't know what there doing. SCD told CC that to advertise in there paper they must have certain items authenticated. CC corner will say to the FBI look I went out of our way to have these pieces authenticated as per SCD. The authenticators will tell the FBI it only our opinion and nothing but nothing can be done. Donald Farngiapni authenticated over 5 thousand items none of them where authentic.The FBI could do nothing because it was his opinion.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />The stuff they are getting is not coming from 1000 different random consignors. That is where the buck has to stop eventually. If Law Enforement ever looks into it, SCD, CCA, and the authenticator can all pass the buck, but eventually the source is going to have to explain where his stuff is coming from.<br /><br />Still, I would wager LE isn't going to give everyone a free pass. There has to be a fiduciary public trust that all of them are violating. Maybe it would be hard to prove a criminal case, but I think a civil case would be a slam dunk.

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02-10-2008, 10:13 AM
Posted By: <b>They need glasses</b><p>Getting back to Beatles albums...<br /><br />They're something far more ominous going on behind the scenes. <br /><br />Frank Caiazzo is one of the most respected authenticators of Beatles material in the business. Beatles is all he does. He's been at it for 20+ years and has consulted for Christies, Bonhams, and hundreds of collectors and dealers worldwide. Today, If you "google" his name, you'll find hundreds of references describing his expertise, etc.<br /><br />There's a Florida company that sells, among other things, signed rock memorabilia. A lot of it, for a lot of money, in five galleries in southern Florida. And who do they employ to authenticate their material? Christopher Morales, that's who. <br /><br />It seems that this company is now SUING Caiazzo for pronouncing one of their signed Beatles albums a forgery. Think about that. You'll see that lawsuit at the same time you "google" Caiazzo's name. Why is someone paying a great deal of money to sue Caiazzo, and paying to maintain a website -- to protect Mr. Morales' reputation. Is there some reason they don't, perhaps, want to get another opinion on the "authenticated" goods they sell? <br /><br />One more point you folks may have failed to consider. THE VAST AMOUNT OF BOGUS MATERIAL COMING ON THE MARKET IS DEVALUING THE AUTHENTIC, LEGITIMATE MATERIAL YOU NOW OWN! If there are 100 real Mantle signed bats and 10,000 fake signed bats, eventually the perceived market will be that there's 10,100 signed bats. You lose, forgers win.

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02-10-2008, 10:20 AM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Love your web site.(theyneedglasses.com) I know that it sounds bad that Caiazzio is being sued, but discovery procedures could lead to finding out who the gallery's supplier is. I would bet that when push comes to shove that they will back out. The same thing holds true with CC.

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02-10-2008, 10:24 AM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>To they need glasses - do you know Frank Caizzo? Tell him that we can start a defense fund for him in this action. If this suit advances the plaintiff will have to reveal his sources for all his Beatles items.<br /><br />edited to add: apparently a defense fund has already been started.<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-10-2008, 10:28 AM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I wonder if there is an attorney on this site that can help us in a class action suite against CC. This might just put them out of business. If it doesn't put them out of business, it sure would make them produce the records of who supplies them with this crap..

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02-10-2008, 11:50 AM
Posted By: <b>Larry</b><p>As we first mentioned, there are tens of thousands of signed Rock N Roll Memorabilia Albums and Photos(we had bought some) that are blatant mass produced fakes.<br /><br />We have been fortunate to see some vintage signed beatles memorabilia with multiple COA's including Frank C. Once you see the copies side by side, you can distinguish the real from the fake as long as the period signed is similar. Lennon's signature and Ringo's changed drastically over time but there is no doubt that the pieces that are forensically authenticated by above mentioned, differ and could possibly be deliberate and decently created for public sale.<br /><br />If you own a signed album with "sharpee" or multi colored (pen and color ink)signatures of Hendrix, Lynryd Skynryd, Doors, Joplin etc., plus the Beatles, good chance that these are fake. The only real way you can get a good bearing is to send the item to three or four different "experts" and if ALL agree it is no good, the percentages are they are not.

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02-10-2008, 03:39 PM
Posted By: <b>1880nonsports</b><p>that I didn't get in person - I would have a LOT of trouble sleeping at night. It appears the leap of faith can be over a vast divide. Sometimes I can't identify my own signature other than to say when one isn't mine. Of course I'm old and addled now.... I've been into one of those shops here in Florida - in Delray. When my friend Scott and I walked into the store - Scott saw something he liked - I asked about the authentications. I had found this board just a few months before and had read the threads related to the above people. I was told they were all done by C. Moralas. When I asked about his association with the names of Frangipanni and whomever - I was given an explination of his work and credentials and referred to his website. They had MANY pieces all elaborately framed. The prices on the autos were all quite stiff and so I imagined they COULD be real as there was an appropriate mark-up for having to procure the items if they were real. The problem was the quantity of material on such item specific mediums (albums from the '60s and such) that they had in stock (and presumably all their other outlets as well) as well as the different categories of autographs (rock, presidents, sports, etc.) and all authenticated by a SINGLE PERSON. Wow. Mr. Moralas must be quite good - in fact the best - forensic examiner to ever live. In any event - I was surprised that my friend wanted to pull the trigger and buy whatever auto it was he wanted. I suggested it was imprudent and related a little of what I remembered from the threads and common sense. Maybe the stuff is real. Maybe some of it is. Maybe none of it is. Educated people apply a standard to much of what they do. Sometimes that gets lost in the moment. Stores like this are geared to the casual collector and impulse buyer who in all likelyhood is not an expert in a particular autograph. They have heard a certificate of authenticity is a good idea. They haven't heard that it's pretty much meaningless unless it actually comes from an expert - and as casual buyers they might not know an expert from a con man..........

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02-10-2008, 04:20 PM
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>I've always wondered where they obtained all the vintage items that are then forged. I have not read of where the item was an obvious fake because the actual type of baseball, etc., hadn't been used at the time, or even when the player was alive. It's always that the signature is bad.<br /><br />There are many legitimate and advanced collectors of the type of memorabilia that these signatures are forged on. How does CC, or Morales and Taylor, get their hands on all this vintage stuff? Are they leftovers from some never occurred Scoreboard giveaway, or from some other vast hoard of material?<br /><br />I mention Scoreboard because they sold signed memorabilia, not for any reason other than that. I am not up on the history of who owned Scoreboard; just felt it was plausible that a hoard of vintage material could have belonged to them, and found it's way into the hands of the forgers.<br />

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02-10-2008, 05:10 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>During Operation Bullpen it was revealed that some of the people involved would scour flea markets, garage sales, antique shows, ebay, etc. They would search for the vintage items, buy them (usually very cheaply) and then use the item to forge an autograph on.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-10-2008, 08:28 PM
Posted By: <b>Larry</b><p>Regarding sports memorabilia, there is a decent percentage of authentic items in ratio to fakes because almost all baseball players were athletes that signed at games, events, team ball etc...even though there are clearly a lot of garbage especially through e bay offered, at least there is enough good material that the autograph collector who is a sports fan can become more educated. <br /><br />Rock and movie memorabilia is different, most of the vintage rockers did not sign in public, the limited amount of real material was usually contracts, checks, autograph paper and occasionally pictures, VERY FEW ALBUMS WERE SIGNED outside of the group's inner circle so there should be a strong provenence when buying a signed album of the beatles, grateful dead, elvis, joplin, led zeppelin band, the who, hendrix, lynryd skynrd, doors, buddy holly and other deceased etc of how item was obtained or it probably is fake ..There are tons of these albums signed "forensically authorized", often with the same names attached and possibly done with the best of intentions. <br /> <br />We learned this the hard way and spent thousands of dollars being told my Rolling Stones, Elvis , Beatles, Dead, Hendrix, Doors etc signed album and photo items were all fakes, we did get back some money through legal channels but for the most part, we learned an expensive lesson. In the long run, we are wiser for this and hope that the industry gets rid of the scoundrels that prey upon the unsuspecting.<br /><br />You can easily buy vintage items like albums, 1st generation photos and buy original fountain pens and inks through antique dealers and a good forger can use these tools to create their "signature art". Then a unscrupulous dealer can concoct a great story, especially hiding behind the cloak of a forensic examiner that is offering an opinion rather than a guarantee. <br /><br />It is very unlikely that so many of these "great historical rock items" were actually signed by the band members since so few authentic material is actually seen and exemplars are less frequent due to the lifesyle of famous rockers and their frequency of being asked to sign was less than athletes who generally were sober, at least while playing and had more public exposure.

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02-10-2008, 08:31 PM
Posted By: <b>They need glasses</b><p>Responding to DD's email (and others) above - <br /><br />Charles Hamilton was one of the grand-pappies of autograph auctions and authentication. I had the pleasure of knowing him, and reading all of his many autograph books cover to cover. One thing he made clear - he would often be offered autographs of the rarest individuals, or letters with the greatest content, "gussied up" (as he put it) in fancy frames with ornate certificates, great provenance ("I found it in grandma's papers in her attic in Waukegan..."), and sworn to over a stack of Bibles. He told me to forget all the gingerbread and window dressing, to always assume the seller was a liar, and look at the autograph itself. If it was fake, it was fake, and no amount of pretense should sway your opinion. <br /><br />Other suckers would bite...Hamilton would look at it, declare it a dog, and send the seller packing.<br /><br />Moral: Any idiot with a good framer, a fancily-wallpapered store or glossy catalog, and and a couple of ornate "o-fish-ee-yal" certificates of authenticity can open shop and declare himself an autograph dealer. Anyone. And only a sucker will buy a silk purse made out of a sow's ear...<br /><br />And what a cakewalk its been for the bad guys. The forgers slowly perfect their craft and sell their stuff to middlemen. The middlemen have their material, perhaps unwittingly (!), authenticated by whomever, and are issued certificates that state that the authentication is really just their professional "opinion". This opinion is then used by dealers and auction houses to sell these goods, which THEY DO NOT GUARANTEE, because the auction house is admittedly not qualified, and anyway, no one is allowed to doubt the qualifications of the "authenticator" who has already offered his professional "opinion" on the piece you just bought! Then, when you go to resell your bargain prize at Christie's and they tell you it's fake, you're stuck - no returns allowed because your piece was already "authenticated". So tough luck. Own that silk purse with pride! Hang it in the garage.<br /><br />I like what I see on this thread. I like the fact that the few people that have fought this fight over the years really haven't been alone. Could we get together a group of collectors and/or dealers and devote the time and resources to further pursue cleaning-up this ever-deepening cesspool? <br /><br />

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02-10-2008, 09:56 PM
Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>There was only this case of an item with a signature that was produced after the subject passed. This sold for over $3,000.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum2/showthread.php?t=332" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum2/showthread.php?t=332</a><br /><br />Otherwise, very difficult to prove if Babe and Lou signed that item. Even if they were alive (probably selling for Steiner), would they care? Sports celebrities don't seem miffed about people reproducing their signature. So many sports celebrities can utilize the VeRo program and have a representative of theirs pull forgeries off the site. Cal Ripken and Steve Yzerman's people are relentless about keeping their clients "Ebay clean".<br /><br />I have also liked what I have seen as well on this thread. Where was this thread and this kind of passion years ago? <br /><br />The hobby is clearly in a cesspool-state and someone mentioned this before that it destroys the inventory (investment?) of those with honest pieces. It's kind of like having the world's greatest printer and being able to produce PSA10's at will. <br /><br />Glasses, you mind telling us who you are and who is behind the site? I doubt you will, but I'll take a shot in asking. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />What needs to be done is create something, anything that would help this hobby. But what? But how? <br /><br />DJ<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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02-11-2008, 08:51 AM
Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>"Could we get together a group of collectors and/or dealers and devote the time and resources to further pursue cleaning-up this ever-deepening cesspool?" quoted from glasses.<br /><br />Now that you are asking for volunteers to join with you, can we at least find out who you are. I would love to be involved in an organization to fight the good fight, but I would like to know who I am joining.<br />--<br /><br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-11-2008, 10:26 AM
Posted By: <b>They need glasses</b><p>Thanks for the praise, gentlemen - it's much appreciated - but I'm far from done. <br /><br />At this time, I think I'll have to remain anonymous. I don't believe anyone should show their cards until the time is ripe. I want to leave all future options open, though you can bet I'll be contacting many of you privately to discuss how further action may proceed. <br /><br />My website, www.theyneedglasses.com, was created on the spur of the moment in reaction to a combination of events that have finally driven me and my supporters to action:<br /><br />a.) the enormous amount of "bad" material being "authenticated" and peddled in galleries and auctions has grown year by year;<br /><br />b.) incompetent or negligent authenticators are not being called to task for shoddy authentication practices; and the straw that broke the camel's back;<br /><br />c.) a legitimate, widely-recognized authenticator is being sued by a gallery owner who took umbrage with his opinion that a Morales-certified Beatles album was not authentic. <br /><br />So...the vendors of material which may be questionable are now bankrolling efforts to legitimize authenticators whose own credentials may be questionable!<br /><br />Boys and girls - tapping out angry postings to forums is cheap, easy, and generally safe. Taking real action is another thing altogether. It takes time, legal expertise, and money. Maybe a lot of it. But like the United Way, if spread over a large population, it aint so awful...<br /><br />First of all, it's vitally important to locate those people who have purchased items with COA's from "questionable" sources and who BASED their purchase on the validity of those COA's. They must also have had to have had their items widely condemned once offered for resale, or otherwise. A case has to be made that these authenticators and forensic examiners are consistently wrong, to the point of being incompetent. It would then follow that auction houses and galleries accepting this material, and having been warned multiple times that the material is "bad", were not exercising due diligence and may themselves be legitimate targets for litigation (or prosecution). I would then hope that a trail might lead to the forgers themselves.Then there's the matter of all these forgeries coming on the market and diluting the value of the legitimate, authentic material owned by collectors out there who paid real money for what they own.<br /><br />I'd like to hear from attorneys (with autograph dealer or auction house references) prepared to spend a little time researching the potentialities of this issue. I also need to hear from victims willing to step forward.<br /><br />I'll kick in $10,000 for starters.<br /><br />I need to hear from you - you'll be hearing more from me.

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02-11-2008, 10:44 AM
Posted By: <b>They need glasses</b><p>In case any of you never got a chance to see the HBO Sports videos on authenticators, check out these Youtube videos (audio is a bit poor):<br /><br />Part 1:<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bZF5rvPPIY" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bZF5rvPPIY</a><br /><br />Part 2:<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx3I8VE2aUU&feature=related" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx3I8VE2aUU&feature=related</a>

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02-11-2008, 11:03 AM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>If you have not seen this HBO show, take the time out to do so now.<br />I realize that I am praising myself a bit with this post , as I do come out looking very good on the blind test that was conducted by HBO, and many do not, but even if that did not happen, this would still be a worthwhile show for collectors to see.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-11-2008, 11:46 AM
Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>Thanks for the YouTube information. I just watched it. Everyone should. Also has other videos on there with James Spence etc. Worth listening and watching. <br /><br />So if I wanted to have a Ruth ball and Beatles album reviewed, which three people or companies would you suggest? Thanks and I hope their opinions are all the same either ( fake or real), if differ then it really creates a problem.

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02-11-2008, 12:14 PM
Posted By: <b>Josh</b><p>I just watched both videos. I am just glad I do not collect or buy autographs only cards. That is very disturbing to watch. I am sure new rings are out there doing fakes and still passing them as we speak. Why do people still buy all the autograph stuff on ebay it's weird...

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02-11-2008, 12:18 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>Josh - though the risk is high, some people are autograph collectors. There is something about having an authentic autograph in your hands that "connects" you to the person who signed it, much more so than in any other collecting endeavor.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-11-2008, 12:51 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Why don't we try a full page add with Krause. If they turn it down they will be admitting that what the ad says is true. I know there are some really good writers on this site.

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02-11-2008, 01:44 PM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>Leon and board members,<br /><br />Before we all jump in bed with theyneedglasses, this person needs to id themselves. We have an unidentified poster soliciting monies from the board. If there was an annonymous poster for the other side (forensics) we would all come down hard on them. For credibility purposes, theyneedglasses needs to step up and be held to the same requirements we all have been held to. Lets do this right.

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02-11-2008, 01:53 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>I agree with John. Glasses should ID himself ASAP if he wants to establish credibility with this group. Anonymous posts carry much less weight around here.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-11-2008, 02:12 PM
Posted By: <b>They need glasses</b><p>Friends - <br /><br />In response to John's posting, I am NOT in any way soliciting funds, nor would I EVER (if I were any of you) give a nickel to any anonymous individual or group purporting to be anything or do anything. I am suggesting that SOMEONE organize an effort to determine what options, legal and otherwise, are available to combat this growing menace to the hobby we love. I pledged $10,000 and I'll send to the first credible group with a good plan to put in place.<br /><br />I collect a lot of information from various sources for use on our website. Some of it is confidential. All lot of what I say is going to make a lot of people pissed off, and may invite unwelcome attention. So...until the time is ripe, I prefer to lay low and continue doing what I'm doing on my web site. Wouldn't you do the same?<br /><br />Alternatively, I'll contact some of my friends and associates in the industry who may be willing to publicly speak for me on this thread. I work closely with these folks and we've all been monitoring this site. <br /><br />Sorry this is all so cloak and dagger, guys, but frankly we're dealing with millions of dollars a year in bogus stuff, so undoubtedly there are some potentially very bad people somewhere in this mix.<br /><br /><br />

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02-11-2008, 02:22 PM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>Theyneedglasses,<br /><br />You're missing the point. If we're expecting any results from Krause, collecting groups, or a judge, all cards need to be laid on the table. Annonymous posts have always been met with opposition from the board. Credibility goes out the window when a nameless, faceless entity is passing information. Personally, I would love to sling a little mud at a few dealers and auction houses if I didn't have to be identified. Who wouldn't? It's just not the way to get any positive results.

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02-11-2008, 02:39 PM
Posted By: <b>They need glasses</b><p>Gents,<br /><br />There's two personae:<br /><br />1.) The guy who put up and maintains www.theyneedglasses.com, who must remain anonymous for reasons already stated, and;<br /><br />2.) The guy who is willing, publicly, to show his cards and cooperate openly and willingly with any organization or group that seeks to clean up this business, once some such structure is established.<br /><br />It's as simple as that.<br /><br />Now, we're getting sidetracked. Anyone who wants to contact me can do so via email and will get a response from a real human being, probably already known to them!<br /><br /><br />

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02-11-2008, 07:25 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I started this thread with the hope that it would lead to people getting angry and doing something about the suspect part of the autograph market. Well I think that has worked. Now its time for the people on here to come up with a working idea on just how to get to fixing the problem. <br />I still feel that we should put pressure on Krause and other publications that support the crap that is going on. <br />I know that at the Hawaii show Tim Fitzsimmons of the FBI spoke to many of you. Maybe its time for him to speak to the public and not just the dealers. It also might take a person like me to do that as well. To make people aware of just how easy it is to lose your money in this hobby. To make them understand if it is to good to believe then don't believe it.<br /><br />There are a great deal of major shows and this might be the place where people will listen. Krause is running the upcoming show in Florida what better place to bring up CC than at that show. I just want this crap to end.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />W

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02-11-2008, 07:42 PM
Posted By: <b>They need glasses</b><p>Great idea, Shelly, but what promoter of an autograph and memorabilia show is going to want to have a speaker come in to discuss why so many autographs and so much signed memorabilia is bad? It'll be like the old Addams Family TV show - all you'll see is the door closing behind the people who can't get the hell out of there fast enough!<br /><br />I fear that the same thing will happen with any publication. Krause pubs., Autograph Collector magazine, etc. etc. don't want to publish bad news about the business that keeps them in clover. Remember, you don't sh_t where you eat.<br /><br />As I mentioned in an email to you a little while ago, discrediting bad authenticators is like playing Whack-a-Mole. As soon as you get rid of one, another pops up in his place. It's a matter of supply and demand. As long as forgers can make money selling their wares by getting them past "authenticators", there will always be a market for those authenticators. <br /><br />They only sure way to to curb this lunacy is to give them a good spanking. And that's where the law comes in. Lawmen don't care too much about money; it's flashbulbs and the spotlight that get them the promotions. How do you interest them in a case? Well, if Mohammed won't go to the mountain, bring the mountain to Mo....or better yet, bring the Press. Lawmen love the press, and the press eats up stories like this. Baseball, the national pastime, the glamor of rock, crime, deception, etc. etc. You were on the forefront - who better to contact Rolling Stone magazine or Sports Illustrated? Or 60 Minutes?<br /><br />I've dealt with the press many times in the past, and I could probably get us a head start or at least get us in the door. Anybody else have any solid press contacts? Don't think small! If there's a huge hue and cry following a big story in the press, lawmen will have no choice but to jump right in.<br /><br />What do you think?<br /><br /><br />

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02-11-2008, 07:49 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>"They Need Glasses" I think you are crossing the line where you can remain anonymous. Please email me privately.....Lets chat for a minute......thanks....moderator (leon)

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02-11-2008, 07:50 PM
Posted By: <b>They need glasses</b><p>PS Where is Mr. Morales? Did someone say Bolivia? If he's authenticating 50-60 pieces a month for CC, plus all the stuff he authenticates for all of the galleries out there, eight or so last time I counted, plus the stuff he authenticates for Forever Legends, and God knows how many other internet autograph sites, how does he have time to even go bowling, let alone to Bolivia for a couple of weeks? <br /><br />And I hope the fellows from Stat are reading all of this. You guys are embarrassing.<br /><br />I'm just sayin'...

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02-11-2008, 07:54 PM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>Maybe PSA/DNA could answer that question for Morales. In the Bill Daniels lawsuit it was noted that PSA DNA authenticated a few thousand signatures for one major auction house in a 48 hour span. How is this possible?

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02-11-2008, 08:11 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>John - that very interesting question was never answered.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-11-2008, 08:12 PM
Posted By: <b>They need glasses</b><p>Leon, I'm waiting to hear from you.

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02-11-2008, 08:53 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>As I said in my email you have crossed the line of being able to remain anonymous. Please don't post anymore in this thread or any threads that are controversial or highly opinionated UNLESS you put your full name and good email address in the post(s). I didn't go back and read all of your other posts but even this most recent one where you said:<br /><br />"And I hope the fellows from Stat are reading all of this. You guys are embarrassing."<br /><br />is VERY FAR over the line in my opinion. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with your statements. Please understand this is not personal. You might very well be a great guy....but that really doesn't matter with respect to "amonymity" on this board. Please email if you have any questions concerning this. Our "Rules" section spells this out too...best regards<br /><br />edited a few typos

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02-11-2008, 09:30 PM
Posted By: <b>They need glasses</b><p>Just kidding, Leon - thanks to your for our email exchanges. Realize I've been a bit too forward with my pronouncements as an anonymous poster. <br />I've also distracted everyone from the main issue at hand - cleaning up the hobby. Since I consider it most important for me to continue to educate the public through www.theyneedglasses.com, as well as pursuing other avenues beyond this forum, I'll just sit on the sidelines for now. If any of you folks can help out, contact me. If I can help YOU, I'll do whatever I can. Best of luck!

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02-11-2008, 09:40 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I have no problem standing up to the press. In fact I would look forward to it. I have called Morales and STAT out. I will be more than willing to do it in a public forum. The one thing I know more than anyone out there is the truth. Morales, STAT, Donald, AAU, Prody,William Tell,etc,etc, should and will go down. I look forward to all them trying to sue me for what I said on this site.

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02-11-2008, 11:05 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I think I might have hit a nerve. This is an email that was sent to me.<br /><br />You are a miserable, lowlife jailbird who wants people to think because you got caught you are repentant and the fact you were a forger and crook now makes you an expert on everything pertaining to autographs. You know damn well you've been dishonest all your life and your holier than thou attitude is really a big act to console yourself over the fact YOU GOT CAUGHT! You're a freakin' gonif. Go back to your circle jerk with the "Great" Autograph Dealer/Authenticator Simple Simon. Like that HBO garbage you two creeps cooked up, this is all a self aggrandizing ploy for both of you to look good. You don't. You're both morally ugly and if you want to clean up something start with yourselves.<br />PS<br />If you want to place ads re CC you should pay for them with the money you stole, GOnIF!!!!<br /><br />I was in a Federal Camp not Jail. I was never a forger. Richard had nothing to do with HBO. I will be more than happy to keep posting what you send me. The email came from omyguspar@aol.com

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02-12-2008, 07:32 AM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>Anonymous, vulgar name callers. Always a classy way to show the writers true colors. All you can do is laugh at crap like this. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-12-2008, 09:12 AM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>As usual I spelled the email address wrong. It should be, imoguspar@aol.com

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02-12-2008, 11:47 AM
Posted By: <b>Larry</b><p>edited due to anonymity

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02-12-2008, 12:05 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>I was never tipped off by HBO regarding the blind test that they conducted on authenticators. If I had done badly on the test they would have told that in the story. <br />I think the people that know me know that I have always had the utmost integrity in this business and that my word has always been good.<br /><br />edited due to Larry's remarks above which Leon has deleted due to the anonymous nature of the poster. He was questioning the integrity of the HBO show.<br />--<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-12-2008, 06:25 PM
Posted By: <b>Bill Panagopulos</b><p>Just finished reading all of the postings above re: Mr. Morales, Coach's Corner, Stat Authetics etc. after having gotten the head's up from the webmaster at theyneeedglasses.com. I see he was asked to step forward and ID himself but I can understand his reluctance in light of the content of his website. I'm glad to see he's not alone in his dismay over the current state of affairs in what's become the autograph authentication disaster.<br /><br />For those who don't know me, I'm the owner of Alexander Autographs, Inc., an auction house devoted to the sale of historic autographs and manuscripts (only). We sell about 2,000 lots per auction, about three time a year. We've been at it for about 12+ years, we don't use any outside authenticators whatsoever (and never have), we're members of PADA, UACC, the Manuscript Society, Ephemera Society, etc. and guarantee our material for life.<br /><br />I'll open by saying that it's my firm belief that any autograph auction house that will not guarantee its material, preferably for life, is simply not worth its salt. What (other than a little thing like ethics) would stop me from hiring Joe Blow down the block to authenticate my material, and then keep me from telling my bidders that, essentially, "I'm not qualified to authenticate this material - you have to rely on my "pro" or "forensics" person?" What would happen if Christie's or Sotheby's said: "Well, we think it's Picasso, but we have this certificate from someone who said they have this qualification and that degree, so you have to rely on them" before you plunked down twenty million on an oil painting? I believe that's an easy way to pass the buck and absolve ourself from any responsibility for selling anything...and it's especially helpful should the item be condemned as being unauthentic by anyone else, somewhere down the road. <br /><br />We're pretty liberal with returns - we take an honest approach and if, say, two legitimate dealers with extensive experience in the material questioned say the piece isn't authentic, we'll discuss the item with them, openly, and we'll certainly offer a full refund if it's not "right". We err on the side of caution. We're dealing with consignors, amny unknown to us, and we risk OUR money guaranteeing THEIR goods. <br /><br />Admittedly, we don't do a lot with baseball, rock, and modern Hollywood. Why? Because, frankly, they are the most pervasively forged fields in the business. But again, if we sell an item in ANY field that turns out to be "bad", the refund check goes out. And believe me, after selling 45,000+ lots over the years, it's inevitable. All of you dealers and auctioneers out there know that.<br /><br />Getting back to the subject at hand, a few weeks ago I viewed the items for sale at Coaches Corner in my field, including Marilyn Monroe items, John F. Kennedy letters, a Washington signature, and a number of other historic items. Can I tell you with ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CERTAINTY that they aren't authentic? Of course not - I wasn't there when the pen hit the paper. But would I take them on consignment, certificate or not? No chance, no way. But that's an decision I make as a businessman. And if a fellow dealer, auctioneer or customer approached me and asked me what I thought of them, I'd tell them. <br /><br />But there seems, somehow, to be a pattern here. There's a huge number of items in internet auctions, including Coaches Corner, that I would never, ever take on consignment. And I'm no baseball or rock expert, either. Am I too picky? Are you guys too picky? If not, perhaps "Glasses" as you call him, was right, and strong action might be called for. After all, $500 Washington signatures don't do me, or owners of other $5,000 Washington signatures, a lot of good.

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02-12-2008, 07:06 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Well it is getting close to "Count down Morales". I am waiting with baited breath for his response. I know all are waiting as well. I know what it is to travel from Mongolia back to the United States. So i will be very benevolent as to give an extra 24 hours to "special agent in training "Morales. I am still waiting for CC and STAT as well. I will state this one more time. I will look forward to any and all law suits. I will also state for a fact that none of you have to set up a defense fund for me. This one is on me.

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02-13-2008, 11:41 AM
Posted By: <b>J. McMurry</b><p>Hey guys,<br /><br /> I have posted here in the past and just "rediscovered" this forum. I think this is great, and badly needed. Everyone has made great points(except for the unheard subjects). The main point I stress is the same ol cliche, DO YOUR HOMEWORK, I've been collecting for 18 years now and still would not consider myself an expert, even though I spend HOURS reading, researching and asking questions of those I respect in the hobby. SCD can still provide interesting info when read,such as the following: CC ad touting Donald F. as the "best in the business", Ted T. listed as an employee of CC auctions, Ted T. writing letters to the editor defending CC against the HBO piece. The facts are there for everyone to see and make their own judgements. I would like to thank Shelly for faxing me a sample sheet of Marino autographs a while back, and his "fighting the good fight",but I also agree that it probably wouldnt be a good idea for him to get back into the hobby as a dealer. I would also like to thank Rich Simon, who I have purchased items from and who has also passed on some good info. Ron Keurajuan(sic?) has also been agreat help in the past,as has Keating and Spence. We need more guys like them to help out the little guy who loves the hobby ,but cant afford to drop $1,000 on a Ruth 3x5,etc. thanks guys.

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02-13-2008, 11:45 AM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>"I'll open by saying that it's my firm belief that any autograph auction house that will not guarantee its material, preferably for life, is simply not worth its salt"<br /><br />Bill,<br /><br />The following return policy applies to the most respected auction houses (listed below) in the sports memorabilia and autograph industry:<br /><br />ALL SALES FINAL<br /><br />Mastro<br />Lelands<br />Hunt Auctions<br />Sothebys<br /><br /><br />They will not listen to a differing opinion and all sales are final. I don't blame them myself. I think the named companies are worth their salt.

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02-13-2008, 11:53 AM
Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>I strongly suspect that with those four named auction houses if you gave them CONCLUSIVE (e.g., scientific testing of the paper or ink) PROOF that the signature is not genuine and that you didn't wait an unreasonably long time to present your claim to them, that they would work something out with you.

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02-13-2008, 11:56 AM
Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Bill - if you don't mind the question - how many returns have you processed? It seems to me your return policy is entirely in your control since they have to be 2 "well qualified" experts (which you get to define) and even if they both say it's questionable, you still require your company to agree that it is "bad" before you process a refund. On paper you have a refund policy, but I question if it really is one.

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02-13-2008, 12:13 PM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>Corey,<br /><br /> I purchase a signed item from one of the above "ALL SALES FINAL" companies and I receive the JSA and PSA letter with the item. I take it to a big show where Richard Simon, Kevin Keating, Jim Stinson and Mike Guttierrez all say "no good". You will not receive a return. It is rare to ever have "conclusive" evidence that you speak of.

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02-13-2008, 12:20 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>John - This is from Lelands Auctions catalog, I believe that they do have a return policy. And you would not get a JSA or PSA letter from Lelands, except on a rare occasion when the consignor might have had one.<br /><br />-<br />Lelands stands by the authenticity of everything it sells for a period of three years from the date of the auction. It is up to the client to verify authenticity within that period of time. However, Lelands and its agents will be the final determinant of the authenticity of each and every piece it sells. We are not bound by the opinion of grading services, outside authenticators, or so-called experts. Letters of authenticity are only available for those pieces where "LOA" is listed in the catalogue copy. Otherwise, your invoice and that alone will serve as your letter of authenticity. <br />--<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-13-2008, 12:57 PM
Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>"I purchase a signed item from one of the above "ALL SALES FINAL" companies and I receive the JSA and PSA letter with the item. I take it to a big show where Richard Simon, Kevin Keating, Jim Stinson and Mike Guttierrez all say "no good". You will not receive a return. It is rare to ever have "conclusive" evidence that you speak of."<br /><br />In the instance you describe I agree. Returns will not be forthcoming by merely substituting one opinion for another. However, in those rare instances you are basing your claim on hard facts (e.g. scientific testing or the confession of a forger that he forged your document), then I think to maintain customer goodwill the auction house will in good faith try to work something out with you. <br /><br />Some of this is not far-fetched. I remember reading of on-going investigations of people who are alleged to have forged documents from famous Americans. It is conceivable that as part of some plea bargain there will be admissions as to specific documents forged, at which point I would expect current owners to press claims.

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02-13-2008, 05:59 PM
Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>First off, I think Mr. Jaffe should be commended for starting this thread and having the balls to be so outspoken. I'm hoping that this thread just doesn't die and we all treat it like a family gathering and simply leave the get together to perhaps promise in five years, to get together again. I think we are all anxiously awaiting Mr. Morales' entrance back into the country and I'm pretty sure the STAT team won't be entering the hostile arena, which is this Forum. <br /><br />Especially since "glasses" updated his/her site to add a NASA piece which STAT Authenticated. They seem to have a A LOT of complete NASA pieces each month and the NASA pieces usually sell for "NADA" of what it should. SpaceCollect site (or is it Nasa Collect) had a thread running about this time last year on an Armstrong ball that the Coach's team claimed they (actually a consignor) got directly from walking up to Neil's house. You know Neil, he LOVES to sign. <br /><br />No he doesn't. He's borderline impossible. <br /><br />It was mentioned above about great sellers guaranteeing "for life" an item and EVERY seller should stand behind their opinion with an open mind that if a more respected person believes something to be false, they should gather their ego and pride, offer a refund and junk the piece. Too many times there is a heated debate, an argument, stubborness and eventually a respected friendship has gone South. In saying that, Lelands rocks. <br /><br />Also a mention of Ron K. Ron K. has an AMAZING piece up on Autographalert.com on the rather difficult signature of Mordecai Brown. He was a great writer for SCD, but SCD let him go...because his honest articles about baseball subjects (analyzing autographs) were upsetting the advertisers. Yet another reason for the public to turn their back on this once prominent hobby periodical.<br /><br />DJ <br /><br /><br /><br />

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02-13-2008, 06:49 PM
Posted By: <b>J. McMurry</b><p>Yep,<br />The Ron K. articles are the only things I've ever cut out and saved from past issues of SCD.

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02-13-2008, 09:17 PM
Posted By: <b>Bill Panagopulos</b><p>Still love this string...<br /><br />John, I see that Mastro accepts no returns on autographs at all, Hunt will with a dissenting opinion within 60 days, Lelands declares it is the final arbiter of any dispute, and Sotheby's, contrary to your post, will refund your purchase price against good evidence that an items is a forgery (I know - I've tested the system). It's vitally important that bidders READ and UNDERSTAND the terms of sale and any implied warrantees PRIOR to bidding. Of course, how these houses guarantee their material has absolutely nothing to do with how I guarantee my material. I didn't mean to say these companies are not trustworthy, not legitimate, or anything else negative. Perhaps you misunderstood what I was trying to say. What I meant to say was that an auctioneer that guarantees his material for the life of the buyer obviously has a lot more on the table, money-wise and reputation-wise, than one who is free and clear once the hammer come down. But everyone is free to run their business any way they choose...<br /><br />Matt - to answer your question, in all honesty, I think I've processed perhaps two hundred or so returns in all of the lots I've sold. The majority of those were returned because of differences in how we described the item's condition. Now, our stated policy of "two well qualified" should have been stated as "mutually acceptable", though to skeptics the effect is the same. But, believe it or not, we make our money on repeat customers, not the one or two we could, if we were so disposed, cheat out of a lousy couple hundred dollars. A good reputation travels at a snail's pace, a bad reputation travels at the speed of light. In actuality, if there is a good, reasonable, supportable doubt that an item is bad, it's out and the refund check gets put in the mail. Who wants an argument? Frankly, we don't need the money THAT badly. But of course, if an item IS real, and three or four PADA members or an equal number of qualified experts stand by it (NOT forensic experts, STAT, et al), then we have to defend the interests of our consignors. Ethically that's our obligation. <br /><br />Also, bear in mind I deal with historic Americana, not baseball. Baseball "cuts" and signed balls don't use parchment or fancy metal type or watermarked paper. Baseball forgers only have to go to eBay, buy old baseballs (and think about tracking some of those buyers, fellas!), and slap black ink on a dirty old baseball. Easy!<br /><br />And DK - the site is collectspace.com. A great watchdog over space forgeries.<br /><br />This string is getting tons of publicity. Don't delude yourselves thinking you'll ever hear from Chris Morales. Doubt he ever set foot in Mongolia...maybe the Vince Lombardi Rest Area on the Jersey Turnpike...<br /><br /><br />

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02-13-2008, 09:50 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I would like to thank DJ for the nice things he said about me. <br />Now is the time for Mr. Morales to show up and make his case. I will be posting some interesting new things about Mr. Morales in the next few days. I really hope that someone on here makes sure he gets all the info. The same goes for the two geniuses at STAT. Come on boys show us just how smart you are.<br /><br />

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02-14-2008, 07:11 AM
Posted By: <b>J. McMurry</b><p>Question for you Auction guys.<br /><br /> Have you ever had a return come back that was damaged or tampered with by the buyer? <br /><br />If so, what did / would you do?<br /><br />Thanks

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02-14-2008, 04:04 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>As I said to you last night there would be more about Mr. Morales. Well here it is.<br />Sir<br /> <br />This is to confirm the telephone conversation held on Wednesday February 13, 2008 at approximately 12 Noon regrading employment of Christopher Morales. We have no record of Christopher Morales ever being employed by the Department of Forensic Science at George Washington University. Further, part time faculty, currently referred to as Professorial Lecturers do not serve as advisor's to students. It is our understanding that Mr. Morales was a student here. Though we offer in course in questioned document examination, it does not qualify an attendee to become a document examiner. Question document examination is a field that requires on the job training, of approximately two years in a specialized laboratory before an individual is qualified to become a certified document examiner.<br /> <br />Professionals in the field belong to the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, in the Question Document Section and many are diplomats of the American Board of Forensic Document Examination. Checking the 2007 membership directory of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences indicates that Christopher Morales is a member of the General Section. According to the AAFS web site document examination is not within that concentration, before the creation of the digital evidence section this year, computer crime investigators, image enhancement specialists and forensic computer specialists were in that section. Professor Vincze our Director of the High Technology Crime Investigation was in that section. She has since been moved to Digital Evidence. Thus, there is no indication from membership in the AAFS that Mr. Morales has specialized credentials what would justify his identification as a document examiner.<br /> <br />This is the information that I can provide you at this time. Please feel free to contact me should you have further questions.<br /> <br />M. Schanfield, Ph.D.<br />Professor and Chair<br />Department of Forensic Science-GWU<br /><br />Perhaps now we will hear from the silent Mr. Morales<br /> <br />This is directly from his own web site.<br /><br />Faculty Advisor and Adjunct Faculty Member, Forensic Science Department, George Washington University (GWU) I served as an adjunct professor in both the graduate Forensic Science and Security Management programs. I also served a term as advisor for the security management graduate degree students.

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02-14-2008, 04:43 PM
Posted By: <b>Gene Palmer</b><p>The plot thickens. This would make a good Seinfeld episode.

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02-14-2008, 05:49 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard S. Simon</b><p>To quote an old line from the TV show Laugh In:<br /><br />"verrrrrrry interesting"<br /><br />--<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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02-14-2008, 07:04 PM
Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Shelly,<br />Keep digging! It looks to me that no one is throwing the dirt over the top of you now! You have made so great points. And hit some nerves along the way. And Jodi wanted this thread deleted! Shame Jodi Shame!!

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02-14-2008, 07:16 PM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>The letter from the GWU prof. is interesting. What's so strange is that I did exactly what Shelly did, a few months back, called GWU to confirm Morales credentials. I was given completely different information. I spoke to the dean of the department's secretary who indeed confirmed his previous employment with GWU. They even told me exactly when he taught there. If my memory is correct, they said he was there as an adjunct faculty member between 92 thru 97 or 98. She said he advised in 1997 (I may be off one year). Strange indeed. The woman was helpful and even offered to send me an old faculty book with him listed in it. I declined. If I were in his shoes, I'd be on the phone with this guy.

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02-14-2008, 08:23 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>This is the kind of emails I get everyday from people that can't stand the truth.<br />Jailbird,<br />Quick this is an emergency!!! Make a post! Our thread is dying! Spread more lies like the last one about Morales background.<br />Fellow ******* Simple Simon<br />I guess the head of Forensic Science at GWU has to lie for me. By the way his email is Paxcalm@aol.com <br /> <br />

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02-14-2008, 08:27 PM
Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Looks to me that another phone call is in order to GWU. Sounds like the right hand didnt know what the left hand was doing!!!

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02-14-2008, 08:29 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>That is not true. The head of both departments have said that Mr Morales did not teach there. The right hand has proof the left hand has a secretary.

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02-14-2008, 08:41 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>There comes a time to throw up your hands and say enough. I have done more to find out the truth about these guys than anyone on this site. Know I am called out by some one who talked to a secretary. You can believe the head of a Department or John.

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02-14-2008, 08:44 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>John - The letter I posted on this thread came from the Chairman of the Department of Forensic Science at GWU, Dr. M. Schanfield.. Don't you think he would know if Mr Morales had been on the faculty?<br />In addition I spoke to Dr. Eva Vincze who was the head of the department at the time Mr Morales was supposed to be there. She has no knowledge of him.<br />I sent Mr Morales' resume, by e mail, to Dr Vincze and Dr. Schanfield.<br />I also spoke to Barbara and Shondra in the registrars office. I also spoke to people in Human Resources and payroll. They confirmed the information, pertaining to Mr Morales' employment, that is in the letter from Dr. Schanfield.<br />I am very curious, John, why you were investigating Mr Morales. Were you suspicious of Mr Morales? If so, what specifically made you suspicious? Serious autograph collectors don't buy items with his COA. You are a serious autograph collector/dealer. Would you buy items with his COA? If you would not, then why were you investigating him, instead of just ignoring him?<br />Why did you settle for talking to a secretary? Why didn't you pursue this further if you were so interested in Mr. Morales? Why didn't you post this information in this thread earlier?<br />Did that secretary tell you that "there is no indication from membership in the AAFS that Mr. Morales has specialized credentials what would justify his identification as a document examiner." Well, the head of the department wrote that to me in the letter I posted earlier.<br />I talked to two department heads and several others in the school. Is that the way you conduct an investigation, by talking to a secretary, when department heads are available to talk to? Are you saying that two department heads gave me false information?<br />Perhaps you can check with people in the school again. They were all very helpful to me. <br />Check again, with the school, and post your findings here.<br />John, I consider what I did to be very thorough and complete. Do you really think that you did the same? Do you think for one second that the heads of two departments at GWU would lie?<br />Do you think that you used due diligence in your investigation?<br />Perhaps you should just allow Mr Morales to defend himself here. After all, that is why I started this thread. I will say this again don't you think if this is a lie that Morales can come on this site and defend himself?<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /><br /><br /><br />

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02-14-2008, 08:47 PM
Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>I believe you Shelly and the head of the Dept.Thats why I think another call might be in order.

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02-14-2008, 08:47 PM
Posted By: <b>Bill Panagopulos</b><p>Shelly,<br /><br />I have to assume that the message you posted is one that you received either via email or snail mailand is transcribed verbatim, versus something you heard over a telephone line. If that's correct, and the source of the email/letter can was verified, you pretty much have a bulletproof piece of evidence. And If I had to choose between your (written) account and a recollection of a telephone conversation a year ago with a secretary of a dean..well, there's no question which one holds more sway.<br /><br />In my eyes, looks like misrepresentation. But I'm no lawyer. Maybe a real tort lawyer could fill us in.

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02-14-2008, 08:55 PM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>Shelly-I don't think anyone is lying to you, just misinformed. The woman I spoke with was very detailed. She supplied those years of employment to me in a matter of two calls. I initially contacted them because I was told that his website and resume was not accurate. I contacted Krause. They did not care. Once they confirmed that he was there in the 90's, I dropped the ball and didn't pursue it any further. Krause told me to get back with them if I had factual info. At hat point, i had nothing to give them. I wouldn't call my two phone calls an investigation by any means but I believe what I was told...she had to much exact information. Has anyone called him or emailed him the letter you have?

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02-14-2008, 09:47 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Called who?

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02-14-2008, 09:58 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p><br />John, I would think that a man of Morales stature would be able to defend himself. I do appreciate your concern that two heads of the department that he worked for don't remember him or that Human Recourses and the Payroll department have no record of him. I think that they are really open for a law suit if what they are e mailing me is not true. At this point I have to trust what they have told and e mailed me. If Morales worked for GW he should have proof. If he has such proof let him post it on his own website. I notice that he post some of his credentials on site so adding a few more is no problem. I will trust the head of two departments before I trust a person you talked to.<br />More important whether worked he there or not is the fact he is not a qualified hand writing expert. That was stated by the current department head. <br />Now it is your turn. Show me proof that all these people are wrong.<br /> <br />What is most important in all of this is the following statement.<br /> <br /> there is no indication from membership in the AAFS that Mr. Morales has specialized credentials what would justify his identification as a document examiner. I feel that this is where the truth comes out. Is he qualified to be an expert. If so why is he not rated so by the AAFS.<br /> <br /><br /><br /><br />

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02-14-2008, 10:30 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>If anyone on here has Morales email site I would love to have it I can’t find it on his web site. I want to make sure that this thread reaches him. <br /><br />I also want to bring out a strange coincidence. When I fist started this tread it was interrupted by Micah telling all of you how bad a person I am. . It turns out that Micah’s employer was John. Now that I have evidence against Morales it is strange to see that Mr. Morales has another defender. I don’t want to say that this is strange but I will. It is no other but John. I think it is time for John to step down and let Morales state his case. I am tired of Three Card Monte. <br />

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02-14-2008, 10:42 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>John, you did not mention in your first post that you talked to the person a least two times. You also did not mention the persons name. I know when I called the first thing I did is ask who I am talking to. I am sure that tomorrow you will be able to give us her name telephone number and who she works for.

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02-14-2008, 11:29 PM
Posted By: <b>stefan</b><p>i would like to stand by jodi birkholm as he the most knowledgeable autograph expert i know. anything he says as far a im concerned is legitate he is by far the most expireneced person i know when it comes to weird autos and the best part is he knows half the people personally great guy and i agree with him 100% percent. no dis on anyone else in the game but he knows his stuff

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02-15-2008, 05:50 AM
Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>If you are looking for his email, it appears to be here:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.moralesforensics.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.moralesforensics.com/</a><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />========================<br />Re: Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales February 13 2008, 11:30 PM <br /><br /><br />If anyone on here has Morales email site I would love to have it I can’t find it on his web site. I want to make sure that this thread reaches him. <br /><br />I also want to bring out a strange coincidence. When I fist started this tread it was interrupted by Micah telling all of you how bad a person I am. . It turns out that Micah’s employer was John. Now that I have evidence against Morales it is strange to see that Mr. Morales has another defender. I don’t want to say that this is strange but I will. It is no other but John. I think it is time for John to step down and let Morales state his case. I am tired of Three Card Monte. <br />============================ <br />

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02-15-2008, 07:34 AM
Posted By: <b>J. McMurry</b><p>The following is from Morale's web site:<br /><br />An Open Challenge <br />"As noted herein, I will meet anyone in a public forum to review and assess my work efforts. Since private communications are often cherry picked to bolster a point of view, at times misdirecting the facts, it is my position that any meetings and communications be conduct in the open. If anyone desires to contact me concerning an open forum, please do not hesitate to call, email or otherwise contact me at anytime." <br /><br /><br /> Good opportunity here Mr. Morales, to come in and discuss the above.<br /><br /><br /><br />Note to Chris,<br /> Forensic examiners had nothing to do with the down fall of Shelly, everyone who read the book knows it was Wayne Bray turning informer.<br />

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02-15-2008, 08:32 AM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>Shelly,<br /><br />I woke up this morning and was surprised at the tone of your posts. I am not a defender of Morales. I do not know him. I would love as much as you do see him come on this site and answer questions that have been asked. This is what gets me:<br /><br />"I also want to bring out a strange coincidence. When I fist started this tread it was interrupted by Micah telling all of you how bad a person I am. . It turns out that Micah’s employer was John. Now that I have evidence against Morales it is strange to see that Mr. Morales has another defender. I don’t want to say that this is strange but I will. It is no other but John."<br /><br />If you go back and read my first post, I started by saying I was the former employeer of Micah. You have a hightened sense of paranoia it seems. If you read Micah's posts, he is not a defender of Morales. He had a personal problem with you that I felt was amicably resolved by me stepping in. <br /><br />In life, you attract a lot more bees with honey. I would love to see Morales and STAT come here and have open, educated dialogue as much as anyone. I just don't think that will happen if there is false information posted. It gives them ammo to not come on here. <br /><br />I emailed Morales this morning and left a phone message. I copied and pasted the letter from the prof. at GWU so, let's see what happens.<br /><br />I don't have a name and number of who I spoke with. It was a simple call. I introduced myself, said I was calling to verify employment for a poential employee. I gave the woman Morales' name. She called me back a day or two later and gave me the information I posted earlier. I do not keep phone logs of names or numbers. It was a simple phone call and I thought nothing more of it until I read the post. I can't imagine that someone would have had such detailed information and offered to send me an old alumni directory with his name in it. <br /><br />I didn't mean to rain on your parade and was only posting what I found in my own call. My initial call was made because I was told by another major authenticator that Morales never worked for the Secret Service. I called Krause and spoke my concerns about CC and Morales. They were not interested to hear rumors and asked to call back with any factual information. After my call to GWU, I lost interest in the matter. <br /><br />Shelly, you and I had this conversation on the phone about my client not being able to get funds back from CC. I told you how I got involved. This call between us was two weeks ago. Remember????

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02-15-2008, 09:49 AM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>Shelly-<br />I received an immediate response from Morales. This is his response.<br /><br /><br /><br />"Mr. Rogers -<br /><br />Thank you for bringing the matter to my attention. <br /><br />I understand your concerns, and concur with you statements. I have, indeed, worked at GWU, and have made contact with the University to correct the matter.<br /><br />The individual who wrote the letter was not at the University while I was there, and up until his note, I had never heard of him.<br /><br />I will forward you any response I get from the University once I receive it. For now, I am attaching my GWU faculty id card and a copy of my 1997 1099 from GWU. For security purposes, I have not included my ssn or salary."<br /><br /><br /><a href="http://s217.photobucket.com/albums/cc179/Jrscards/?action=view¤t=Agwu-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc179/Jrscards/Agwu-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a><br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203168232.JPG"> <br /><br />edited scan size

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02-15-2008, 10:06 AM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I stand by the letter that was sent to me by the head of the department where he said he worked. I would be interested in just where he preformed his duties. <br />I wrote on this thread exactly what was told to me by GWU. If they where wrong in what they told me I will retract my statements. I will wait to hear from Mr Morales. I will say this again, John this thread was for Morales and STAT. I answered his questions that he had on his site. He personally has yet to come forward. I think it is his time to come on here and present his case and not have some one else do it for him.

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02-15-2008, 10:09 AM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>Shelly,<br /><br />I would love to see STAT, CC, and Morales all come on here. I made that clear in my email to him.

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02-15-2008, 10:14 AM
Posted By: <b>J. McMurry</b><p>Dang! It would take me a month to dig up an 11yr old 1099, if I had one at all.<br /><br /> Should Mr. Morales be judged more on his Resume, or his overall body of work as related to autograph authenication?

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02-15-2008, 10:17 AM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>J McMurry, I must tell you that you are wrong about the Forensic experts. They where the cause for my being arrested. Let me tell you why. When all of this started we had no idea how important it would be to get things authenticated. After we found Prouty(forensic document service), Fragaipani,AAU and others to authenticate our garbage it became easy to sell them. When the market became flooded with these items Wayne heard that the FBI was about to make a bust on the operation. He decided that it was time to go to the FBI and protect himself. So it was the forensic experts that caused me to be arrested.

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02-15-2008, 10:35 AM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I hope to have a chart showing when Morales and STAT authenticate an item for CC versus what a similar item goes for in Hunt's, Mastro's and other major auction houses. <br />This thread was started because Mr. Morales challenged people to dispute his claims. I did that at the start. I do hope he comes on this site so he can reply to my statements at the top of this thread and not have someone do it for him.

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02-15-2008, 11:39 AM
Posted By: <b>Ed Hans</b><p>The 1099 explains the discrepancy between the Prof's information and the Secretary's. 1099s are issued to subcontractors-that is non-employees who perform services, for which they receive compensation, for an organization. Bona fide employees, as defined by federal statute, received W-2s annually to report their income. The prof undoubtedly had access only to employment records, while the secretary probably remembered Morales as an independent contractor and was able to find the records outside of the standard employment reports.

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02-15-2008, 01:04 PM
Posted By: <b>J Levine</b><p>Just to be a pain...it would take me five minutes to create and send that same card with my name and picture on it as well.<br /><br />As to the 1099...it is not a salary. With nothing listed on it saying salary, it could have been for anything including payment for tending the university garden. I have a 1099 from my university in 1995 for the $162 I was paid in helping fix a water heater in the physics department!<br /><br />Proves nothing...<br /><br />I would be far more impressed if Mr. Morales stopped going through a third person and just defended himself.<br /><br />Joshua

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02-15-2008, 01:06 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I only have one question for Mr. Morales - Why don't you buy everything in the Coach's Corner auctions and consign them to Mastro/Rea/Leland's et cetera?<br /><br />And for the record I will also echo the thoughts on Jodi Birkholm....I do not know why he wanted the thread deleted, but I can tell you he is one of the more helpful members of this forum. A lot of people don't see it though because I think he prefers to email people with his info rather than post it to the forum. He knows more about obscure major leaguers than anyone I've ever encountered on the net.

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02-15-2008, 01:21 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>The auction will feature investment grade, museum quality artifacts, writings and autographs of The Beatles besides George Harrison’s sister, Louise’s, personal copy of the LP “Meet The Beatles” album hand signed at the time by all four Beatles and given to her on the train to their first US concert in Washington D.C. It is expected to fetch in excess of $100,000. It is one of fewer than ten US signed Beatles albums known to exist. It is the rarest and most desirable example of an autographed Beatles album ever offered for sale, with unparalleled authenticity from Louise Harrison.<br /><br /> "Beatles" hand signed/custom framed & "Stat" certified record album. $763 CC price. <br /><br /> "The Beatles" band signed/custom framed "STAT" LP album!!! $338<br /><br />Boy it pays to buy a STAT authentic piece. You can buy two autographed albums and save $99.000.00

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02-15-2008, 02:08 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Baseball; Walter Johnson; single-signed; slightly faded but clearly legible autograph in blue ink; $4,800. This is from auction report.<br /><br /> Walter Johnson Senators single-signed "Morales" baseball. 866 This is from CC.<br />

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02-15-2008, 02:22 PM
Posted By: <b>john</b><p>PSA DNA GRADED MINT 9 RUTH BALL. 150,000 PRIVATE SALE Memory Lane Inc.<br />Mint Ruth single 2380 CC auction<br />

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02-15-2008, 03:06 PM
Posted By: <b>J. McMurry</b><p>Shelly,<br /><br />In my last post I was referring to the following statement posted on CM's website:<br /><br />"Interestingly, the "star witness" has expressed disdain for "forensic experts," presumably because such people were instrumental in his conviction."<br /><br /> I could have misinterpreted it,I dunno. Felt like CM was trying to align Forensic Examiners with the "good guys" of law enforcement. <br />

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02-15-2008, 03:21 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>J McMurry, I was being sarcastic. I hate those guys. If it was not for them we could never have sold what we did. They had nothing to do with my arrest. You are one hundred percent correct. Wayne turned in 36 people not the(forensic experts) that is what they call themselves.

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02-15-2008, 03:30 PM
Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Home &gt; HISTORICAL BASEBALL &gt; LOU GEHRIG SIGNED BAT<br />LOU GEHRIG SIGNED BAT<br />LOU GEHRIG SIGNED BAT<br />Item# lou-gehrig-signed-bat<br />Regular price: $25,000.00<br />Sale price: $15,000.00<br />Product Description<br />THIS OLD BAT IS SIGNED BY LOU GEHRIG AND COMES WITH AN AUTHNETICTION FROM TWO DIFFERENT AUTHENTICATORS. AAU and Christopher Morales. <br /><br /><br />Palm Beach Man Sells Lou Gehrig Bat For $72,000<br />Bat Listing Creates Frenzy On eBay<br /><br />I just can't understand why this bat has not sold.