Open letter to STAT and Christopher Morales [Archive] - Page 3

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02-20-2008, 11:15 AM

Posted By: Eric"but I appreciate everything the players here on the board are doing to try and clean the hobby up". I agree Chuck. It is finally great to see collectors take a stand. Whether you're into the hobby or not, this garbage needs to be taken out. As for other options for our bogus stash.....batting practice is a great idea for the baseballs. And drawing across the framed "signed" pictures, is another fantastic idea. I might just do that to my Maris framed piece, "authenticated" by non other then AAU. <img src="http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k14/crazylocomerk2/autograph%20junk/MarisCloseup.jpg"> And the lovely COA: <img src="http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k14/crazylocomerk2/autograph%20junk/MarisCOAClose.jpg"> J-U-N-K

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02-20-2008, 11:17 AM

Posted By: EricSorry to ruin the 500th post with that. I guess what better way then to show a bogus signature.

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02-20-2008, 11:37 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonThe classically horrible M, some can do it, most cannot. One of the easiest tells in the hobby. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-20-2008, 11:41 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI am not a big autograph collector...the only ones I collect are ones that people wouldn't fake anyway (Minor league team balls), but all this chatter has me wondering...my parents bought me a Nolan Ryan autographed ball somewhere around the late 1980's from the Sears catalog. I have long since lost whatever COA had come with the ball, but now I'm wondering if it's legit or not. Also my brother in law bought a Ted Williams autographed bat during the 1990's and I'm not sure where he got it...I'll have to ask him.

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02-20-2008, 02:06 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeSorry I missed number 500 but I was I the dentist. I will be looking forward to number 600. This is an amazing thread. Thanks to all.

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02-20-2008, 02:09 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeJohn,I know you know Smiyly who's the other dude.

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02-20-2008, 02:10 PM

Posted By: Bill Panagopulos "I just have one more question on the signed beatles album covers. I can see a US cover signed in 64/65 going for a premium $40-75k, but what about a reissue white album signed by all four at different times from 1970-80? Does the 12 in existence thing include those types of albums or just the ones signed as a group in the 60's? Just curious." After making inquiries, far as I can tell only ONE American-issue album was "put-together", and it was a first run "White Album" signed in the 1970's that was sold privately abt 1997. In our opinion, it remains the only authentic signed "White Album" in existence.

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02-20-2008, 02:10 PM

Posted By: Chuck TapiaThat Maris is beautiful Eric. If only...Ah, forget about it. I can already see where Roger was starting to grow a Stache? It would be perfect for my handywork of adding Mustaches to all my fakes. Maybe you could post a picture of Christopher Morales and I could draw a Mustache on him instead? Or beter yet, I can kick him in the nuts, and call it a day.

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02-20-2008, 02:35 PM

Posted By: DDI e-mailed the Executive Director, Chair, Vice Chair and some other ranking officials in the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, as Morales claims to be a member. He has been a busy boy as it appears his website has been updated with some certificates that are supposed to establish his credentials.

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02-20-2008, 02:51 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaGot a link to his website?

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02-20-2008, 02:56 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeI talked to them as well. He is classified as a general member, not qualified for the title of Question Document Examiner. I just went to his website. What has changed?

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02-20-2008, 02:59 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeDan its at the very top. I talked to them as well. He is classified as a general member, not qualified for the title of Question Document Examiner. I just went to his website. What has changed?

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02-20-2008, 03:00 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonThe resumes of Morales and Frangipani that were formerly connected to the website www.forensicsignatureauthentications.com have been taken down today. They were shown as partners, in their own company, on one of those resumes. This was denied by Mr Morales but the resumes stayed on the internet for a very long time. Not to fear, I have printed copies if ever needed. Dan - www.moralesforensics.com -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-20-2008, 03:22 PM

Posted By: johnShelly, Everyone knows Randy. The other guy used to be an antiques dealer in Memphis. He handled the liquidation of the Rock N Roll museum in Memphis several years ago. He used to have open consignment auctions 8-10 years ago in Memphis. He sold cards, antiques, tractors, autographs, and about anything else you can think of. He hasn't had one of those in 8 years or so. They went way down hill the last few he had and i think that's why he stopped having them. He sold his business several years ago and last I saw he is still an autioneer, just auctions big farms and large tracts of land.

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02-20-2008, 03:27 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosI see a number of changes. And I see only ONE specific reference to any education in determining the authenticity of autographs, namely his stint with the Secret Service: "Special Agent/Examiner of Questioned Documents. U.S. Secret Service, Washington, DC Assigned to Washington field office, where responsibilities included investigative and protective work. Responsible for full range of investigative techniques and practices, including: participation and management of criminal investigations of violations pertaining to fraud, forgery, counterfeiting, and threatening remarks or activities against the President of the United States and other Secret Service protectees; detaining, arresting and interviewing suspects; report preparation; and court preparation and testimony". That's a lot of things to do. How much time was spent studying handwriting and forgery, and how much time was spent doing such work on the job with the Secret Service? Also, this cryptic notation at the very bottom of his resume, no employer named: "Examined all evidentiary aspects of financial crimes and fraud, including handwriting and hand printing comparison, typewriting examination, as well as examination of counterfeit currency and credit cards, government checks and other government obligations, during detail at Forensic Sciences Division as Questioned Document Examiner. February 1985 to July 1989". Forensic Services Division of what? FBI? Secret Service? CIA? Where? What? How? Twice Mr. Morales declares himself a "Questioned Document Examiner" or "Examiner of Questioned Documents". Is he allowed to use that title? Can I use that title? Anyway, I see absolutely no other reference to any education in the field of autograph authentication. None. The course completion certificates, the establishing of laboratories overseas, "threat coordination", selecting staff for the Haitian National Police Academy, training programs in serology, etc. etc. are all very good and certainly commendable, but ARE NOT RELEVANT TO AUTUGRAPH AUTHENTICATION. Mr. Morales - all of this can be settled if you will accept my invitation to a public forum to defend your authentication practices. See above. This is the second time I'm making this offer.

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02-20-2008, 03:29 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeEric, can you tell us where you purchased that gem?

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02-20-2008, 03:33 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonJohn - a link was put up in this thread, by Shelly, earlier to Proxy Bid auctions. Scroll up a way to see it. This is a company that conducts auctions for dealers. There was a mostly sports autograph auction being done for Colbert Auctions. Coincidence or different guy? -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-20-2008, 03:40 PM

Posted By: johnRichard, Thanks for the information. I'm running out to soccer practice with kiddos but will look tonight late. I never knew him to do only sports auctions. They were always open consignment, anything goes, no themes at all. I'll look tonight and let you know. Thanks again.

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02-20-2008, 04:14 PM

Posted By: Sean CThe whole site is gone now, Richard! <a href="http://www.forensicsignatureauthentications.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.forensicsignatureauthentications.com/</a> Site Temporarily Disabled This site has been temporarily disabled. If you are the owner of the site, please contact customer care. Not that most of the information from that site isn't available through searches of internet archives. I wonder why the domain name is registered to Sandy Solis, not Rich?

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02-20-2008, 05:30 PM

Posted By: DDI wrote to the Publisher, COO, Chief editor and Managing editor of Forensic Magazine. Thought they would like to know that forensics in the hands of some aren't just used for benevolent purposes, but to rip people off.

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02-20-2008, 05:40 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonI see that the site is now disabled. Well Rich Solis did state that they were not in business, so I guess he finally took down the site. As to why the site is registered in Sandy's name and not Rich, I have no idea, you would have to ask Rich that if he comes back on here. This was the staff page on the site until it was removed some time ago. Mr Morales has denied involvement with this company. His picture and bio are on the staff page with a link to his resume. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203471114.JPG"> I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-20-2008, 05:53 PM

Posted By: EricShelly, That Maris gem was purchased on Ebay in July 2004. I purchased it from an individual with the user name: torigolf. Back then all this garbage could be sold on Ebay. Probably someone that realized it was a fake, so they sold it to the novice autograph collector (me). I think I paid close to $700 for it in an auction format. So it fooled a few people.

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02-20-2008, 06:02 PM

Posted By: Eric****

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02-20-2008, 06:13 PM

Posted By: DDAre the AAU guys also on the list of certified forged document specialists. Drew Max? Sounds like one of Homer Simpson's bosses. His accreditation includes apprenticing under his boss who is now retired (Howard Doulder). he also states he is a diplomate with the American Board of Forensic Examiners, even though his resume (<a href="http://www.aaunlimited.net/drew_v__max.htm" target="_new">http://www.aaunlimited.net/drew_v__max.htm</a>) does not indicated one of the following requirements to be a diplomate: Certified Forensic Consultant, Certified Forensic Nurse, Certified Forensic Accountant, or Certified Medical Investigator®. Could be an oversight. Could also be with these non-mainstram, specialist organizations, that no one has either verified their credentials, or checked to see if they employ them in the manner they were trained to do so. Also from the AAU site is this beautiful piece of work: BEWARE OF DEALERS WHO ALSO DO AUTHENTICATIONS & OTHER SO-CALLED UNQUALIFIED &/OR INACCURATE EXAMINERS It is logical and expected for autograph dealers to examine and attempt to authenticate merchandise they are buying for future resale, after all this has been done for years. It is illogical and unethical, If not deemed illegal, for any dealer to examine, for a fee, any of their competitors autographs. Just think of the possible everyday occurrence that could lead to the impropriety where your Babe Ruth autograph is deemed to be not authentic but they just happen to have an authentic one for you at thousands of dollars of profit to them; or do they down grade it and offer you a fraction of what it is worth? Does a diamond dealer take his diamonds to one of his competitors for grading and appraisal? Does Ford submit a Mustang for road testing to GM? Would you submit your autographs, for examination, to one of your competitors? Of course not, it would be ludicrous! THE CONFLICT OF INTEREST IS MIND BOGGLING FOR YOUR BUSINESS AND THE INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE!

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02-20-2008, 06:17 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeEric, I see that he still in business. Now is the time to go after him.

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02-20-2008, 07:07 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosDD: Well spoken! But we are doing nothing more than stating the obvious. BTW the link you posted was disabled within a matter of moments was taken down. Any surprise? The conflict of interest issue is old new: Authenticators consigning to auctions who employ their services as authenticators, with the crooked ones very likely passing their crap over the legitimate autographs consigned. What an (unsurprising) shock that Mr. Morales and his associates have suddenly revised their resumes. Coincidence? Great timing, anyway. That being said here we go again: THIRD REQUEST: Mr. Morales: Your website states, verbatim: QUOTE "An Open Challenge As noted herein, I will meet anyone in a public forum to review and assess my work efforts. Since private communications are often cherry picked to bolster a point of view, at times misdirecting the facts, it is my position that any meetings and communications be conduct in the open. If anyone desires to contact me concerning an open forum, please do not hesitate to call, email or otherwise contact me at anytime". UNQUOTE Mr. Morales, I hereby challenge you to appear, before a group of your peers in the autograph authentication trade and the international press, to: a.) Discuss your "forensic" methods of authentication, and your education and qualifications, using exemplars or otherwise; b.) Describe in detail other criteria you used to authenticate the thousands of various autographs for which you have issued certificates; c.) explain your relationships, if any, with the various consignors, auction houses, galleries, etc. for whom you authenticate, and; d.) assess your work efforts, ie: how have your authentications been received in the autograph market, as a whole. If you wish to limit the discussion to your "work efforts" alone, I would expect your peers would still meet with you, depending on the agenda. I will pay your airfare and hotel room expenses for your attendance at such a forum in the New York area, for a meeting within the next 60 days. As stated above, I expect you would be asked to respond to inquiries from your peers, that is, knowledgeable, recognized dealers of the same material which you have authenticated. Should the location not be convenient for you, I'm sure we can arrange a meeting in Falls Church. Mr. Shelly Jaffe has already graciously agreed to attend, as has Mr. Frank Caiazzo. I assume that this email will reach you, since I do not have your emali address. If anyone posting to this site can confirm delivery to Mr. Morales, I would be much obliged. B. Panagopulos PS Shall I assume that your silence in response to this message means you decline my offer?

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02-20-2008, 07:48 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonBill - when that link was posted there was an HTML error. DD or Leon - please correct it. Here is the link - <a href="http://www.aaunlimited.net/drew_v__max.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.aaunlimited.net/drew_v__max.htm</a> -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-20-2008, 07:56 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeOne other great thing about Drew Max and AAU is there $1,000,000 bogus Insurance Policy from Lloyd's of London. The only way you can collect is to "prove" that their opinion is wrong.

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02-20-2008, 08:21 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeBill, John heard from Morales in about two seconds. He was able to have Morales send him his picture to show he was at GWU. I hope that John will be able to do that again . I also am waiting for John to show you his Beatles album. It is not often you see a truly authentic one. Bill, did John ever say where he purchased the piece?

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02-20-2008, 10:51 PM

Posted By: DDDoes anyone know Thomas Grogan? <a href="http://www.thomasgroganfde.com/testimonials.asp" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.thomasgroganfde.com/testimonials.asp</a> I don't know him, but found his web site interesting. He is also a certified document examiner, handwriting analyst, etc. Sounds like he makes an honest living. Testimonials from people with everyday problems, along with authenticating a Biily the Kid signature. If anyone knows him, there are some questions I'm sure we all have about his field. Check out his rate schedule, and numerous mentions about appearing in court as a witness.

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02-20-2008, 11:09 PM

Posted By: DDI think it's time to put the screws on. I am going to call my local Secret Service office tomorrow and inform them of how their training, which is provided to ensure our protection, is being used. The Secret Service was formed as a response to counterfeiters. Even today, it still falls under their purview. I'm sure they will be glad to find out how making money from authenticating counterfeit objects, while touting the skills obtained from them, is how at least one person makes his living in this country. Call your local office too.

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02-21-2008, 05:33 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosShelly, I recall John indicating that he purchased a Beatles album at either Lelands or Mastro. I'd like to take a look at it - I'm no Beatles expert but can certainly have experts check it out.

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02-21-2008, 05:46 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosDD - Absolutely brilliant! I'm sure that the Dept. of Justice, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Inspector General's Office, and the Loudoun County, VA Sheriff's Department would also be very much interested in knowing that their names are being used on Mr. Morales' website to promotes his business.

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02-21-2008, 06:12 AM

Posted By: johnBill, I'll be in the office late tonight or early tomorrow. I'll get you the scans of the Beatles album and other Beatles signatures then. Thank you for offering your opinion. I really just wanted your opinion. For privacy purposes, I don't want it passed all over the industry. You have a lot of their signatures in your last auction and even more in your recent past sales so I assumed the opinion would be yours. If not yours, who's? I can just send it direct to them. Thank you again, very much.

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02-21-2008, 06:24 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosAction talks, bullsh_t walks. List of contacts: U.S. Secret Service Office of Government and Public Affairs 245 Murray Drive, Building 410, Washington, DC 20223 202-406-5708 Washington Field Office: 202-406-8000 US DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE Civil Division 950 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Washington, District of Columbia 20530-0001 (202) 353-1555 Office of Inspector General, Dept. of Health and Human Services Phone................: 202-619-3148 Postal address...: 330 Independence Ave., S.W., Room 5250, Washington, DC 20201 Web site............: oig.hhs.gov email: HHSTips@oig.hhs.gov (Loudon County, Va.) Office of the Sheriff 39 Catoctin Circle MSC #35 Leesburg, VA 20175 email link: <a href="http://loudoun.vhost.vipnet.org/sheriff/mailer.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://loudoun.vhost.vipnet.org/sheriff/mailer.htm</a> Sheriff's Administration: 703-777-0407 Media Information Officer, Kraig Troxell: 703-771-5278 State of Virginia Office of the Attorney General 900 East Main Street Richmond, VA 23219 (804) 786-2071 email link: <a href="http://www.oag.state.va.us/FORMS/ContactForm.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.oag.state.va.us/FORMS/ContactForm.html</a> State of Pennsylvania Office of the Attorney General 16th Floor Strawberry Square Harrisburg, PA 17120 717-787-3391 email link: <a href="http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/contactus/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/contactus/</a>

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02-21-2008, 06:32 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosJohn, As I've said before, I am by no means a Beatles expert, and as a rule I depend on the opinions of those who are experts. I can detect the poorer fakes, but the quality of those that come out nowadays is excellent. And unlike some forensic examiners, I cannot be a master of thousands of different signatures! I'll be happy to have some of those folks take a look at your album. If their opinion is unanimous one way or another, I think we'll know what's up. Who authenticated yours?

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02-21-2008, 06:36 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosAnd John - If you want to send your Beatles material directly to an expert for authentication, I can only recommend Frank Caiazzo as number one, and Roger Epperson as number two. A Caiazzo certificate certainly makes your item more valuable, but both appraisals will cost you money.

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02-21-2008, 06:45 AM

Posted By: Richard SimonJohn - did you get a chance to get us some info on Colbert Auctions yet? Last night there was an archived autograph auction, from Colbert Auctions, on the Proxy Bid auction site. Alas, this morning it is gone. I hope that some of us here used the link that Shelly had posted to view this auction. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-21-2008, 07:20 AM

Posted By: johnRichard, I couldn't find the link that you said was listed here. I Googled the name and found a hit for an auction on 2/7 of this year under that name. The auction was closed so I didn't get to view any items but my guess is that it's the same person. Again, just a guess.

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02-21-2008, 07:29 AM

Posted By: leonI have been emailed by one of the parties being questioned here about letting this thread and many of the posts remain. I have advised him of the bloggers Federal Statute: Section 230 refers to Section 230 of Title 47 of the United States Code (47 USC § 230) and that I am not responsible for what others say on this board. Each and every person is responsible for their own actions. With that being said there can be NO anonymous posts in this thread. If I ask anyone posting for their contact information they will need to give it to me, at least privately, so I can give it to folks that might ask for it or I will have to delete their post. This is per our own rules. I am not going to take down almost anything someone says as long as their name is by it, or have a well known handle, and what they say is per the forum rules. Best regards

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02-21-2008, 07:30 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonThanks John, as I said last night there was an old auction visible in the archives section. This morning you were not able to see it any longer. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-21-2008, 07:35 AM

Posted By: johnRichard, Someone must be reading over our shoulder, <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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02-21-2008, 08:01 AM

Posted By: Bill ToddWith all the Web addresses flying around here, many of them here and then gone in a flash, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Wayback Machine. Go to www.archive.org, type the URL you're looking for into the Wayback Machine window at the top, and viola. You'll get snapshots of the page dating back as far as the site existed, and intermittently up to roughly six months ago. The site isn't in trouble; it's just that their archives run about six months behind. You would likely not be able to find a specific auction, for example, but you would be able to get to the site of an auction house. A couple examples: The most recent snapshot of FSA is August 24, 2007. The Drew Max resume has snapshots running between October 2000 and December 2004. Happy hunting! Bill

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02-21-2008, 08:36 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeI listed a gentleman by the name of Jerry Richards. His name was given to me by the dean of forensics at GWU. He is ex FBI and has the title of Question document examiner. Gerald B. Richards, M.S. Adjunct Instructor of Forensic Examination of Questioned Documents Mr. Richards is a Forensic Examiner of Questioned Documents and Photographs, as well as a lecturer and consultant. He is owner of Richards’ Forensic Services and a former Associate Professorial Lecturer at The George Washington University. His educational background includes a Bachelor of Science degree in Photography, an M.S. in Education degree from Southern Illinois University and completed additional studies at The George Washington University and the University of Virginia through the FBI Academy. Jerry Richards Jerry Richards is one of the country's leading experts in both the examination of questioned documents and questioned photographic evidence. As the recently retired head of the FBI Laboratory's Special Photographic Unit and former head of the Document Operations/Research Unit, he brings with him the latest skills and techniques of the world's foremost forensic laboratory. In fact, Jerry’s forensic analysis and testimony in the cases of John Walker and Jerry Whitworth played a significant part in the convictions of America’s worst spies. In addition, document examiners around the world have benefited from the Video Spectroscanner invented by Jerry over his long career. He has also become a highly sought-after speaker and lecturer to groups both within and outside the government. I talked with Jerry and he was very helpful. If it comes down to asking Morales questions that we might not know to ask, he would be a big help.

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02-21-2008, 08:39 AM

Posted By: johnRichard, I'll be in the city this weekend buying a collection of about 60 game used bats, mostly signed and about 150 balls. They come from a former Yankees employee, directly. Because of the source I'm fairly comfortable. BUT: What is your fee for a two hour look and see and verbal opinion? You could just go there with me. Everything is in mid town. It would be Friday afternoon or Saturday anytime. I won't need letters, just a verbal and a heads up if anything looks obviously no good. Email me privately if you don't want to talk finances in public forum

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02-21-2008, 10:29 AM

Posted By: DDI spoke with an agent in my local Secret Service office. They provided some sound information and advice, and I will be following up with them soon.

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02-21-2008, 10:58 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeI am not sure if this has been posted. This is from the Donald's web site. 1994-Present ASSOCIATED WITH CHRISTOPHER L. MORALES Christopher L. Morales is formerly a document examiner with the United States Secret Service/Adjunct Faculty Members, The George Washington University.

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02-21-2008, 11:54 AM

Posted By: DDForgipani's web site also prints the SCD interview with him where he indicates that for a second opinion he suggests Bradley/Morales/Max. If phone records were obtained for these weasels, I wonder how much contact it would show with each other, and the forgers that send them stuff.

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02-21-2008, 12:08 PM

Posted By: johnthanks Richard

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02-21-2008, 12:38 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonYears ago, I had the need for a forensic authenticator. She was totally removed from the hobby and did excellent work. Let me check into my old records and get her information. I am sure she will be happy to help us. If memory serves me correctly, she was the head of the Forensic lab in San Francisco. She helped to prove who was right and who was wrong in a legal case. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-21-2008, 01:16 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosLeon, Earlier today you mentioned posting to this forum, specifically "being questioned here about letting this thread and many of the posts remain" May I ask - were you asked to leave the post up, or to take it down? Secondly - are you saying that I could ask you the identity of anyone posting to this forum? Thanks for your attention. BP

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02-21-2008, 01:23 PM

Posted By: johnLeon, If the answer is "yes" to Bill's question, I would like the id to some posters also. Thank you in advance John

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02-21-2008, 01:39 PM

Posted By: **

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02-21-2008, 01:42 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonMost items signed from the grave have very little if any value <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. You would be surprised how easy it is to raise the dead <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. You probably should not bid on that flag. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-21-2008, 01:49 PM

Posted By: Anonymous*

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02-21-2008, 01:53 PM

Posted By: DDMorales, or whichever forensic savant authenticated that item, would probably claim that in his opinion, George Archer is not dead. Since it's his opinion, he can't be wrong.

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02-21-2008, 02:01 PM

Posted By: Richard S. Simonzman - I certainly knew you were tongue in cheek, my answer was also. It is a great catch on your part, good info. Dueling authenticators on whether a guy is alive or dead <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. Ya gotta just shake your head at this stuff. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-21-2008, 02:07 PM

Posted By: DDNo later than tomorrow and that Masters item will be withdrawn.

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02-21-2008, 02:11 PM

Posted By: zman7*

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02-21-2008, 02:40 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosWhere is Mr. Morales? I hoped (and prayed) that we would have an answer from him by today. John - Your Beatles signatures?

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02-21-2008, 03:01 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonDD- I may be wrong, but I don't recall CC withdrawing any items. How can you sell Rube Waddell cuts at $93 if you withdraw it? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-21-2008, 03:18 PM

Posted By: johnbill, I sent the Beatles scans this morning. Shelly got his, did you not? Let me know if not and I can resend in the morning.

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02-21-2008, 03:20 PM

Posted By: DDRich, I am just thinking that if they are reading this forum, they may withdraw it. Forgeries are one thing. Having a dead person sign something is another. It seems to me that "opinion" is something that the so called forensic authenticators have on their side. There is no gray area for when George Archer died. Honestly, I hope it stays up. More ammo for whomever can have these guys put out of business.

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02-21-2008, 03:23 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonThey can always claim it was "ghost signed". <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-21-2008, 03:23 PM

Posted By: leonThe policy of this forum is, and has been since I took over 2 1/2 yrs ago, to not allow anonymous posts in controversial or very opinionated threads. It is still in the rules section today. While I can't force anyone that is anonymous to give me their contact info I can give out IP addresses which can usually be traced, delete anonymous posts that are against the rules, and ban folks for not adhering to the rules. With that being said if anyone wants any names or IP addresses you can email me or post here. I have 0 tolerance for anonymous posts in these types of threads plus it's against forum policy. I hope this explains my position. I have never changed my mind on it. best regards edited to add that I was asked to delete several posts which all had good names on them...I denied the request.

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02-21-2008, 03:25 PM

Posted By: Sean C<a href="http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=75425" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=75425</a> There doesn't appear to be an authenticator for it. Were there any L of A's associated to it earlier?

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02-21-2008, 03:26 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaSomeone call CC and ask them who certified the autograph of the dead guy. <a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/?action=view&current=coachscorner.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/nudan92/coachscorner.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

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02-21-2008, 03:56 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonHere is there rule regarding returns, I believe this is a very new policy for them: "There will be NO returns on graded cards or Authenticated items. Ask questions regarding the items and look at close up scans before you bid! Any disputes on these must be taken up with graders or authenticators, not Coach's Corner." So if you buy an autograph item and 1, 2 or 3 other authenticators say it is not good you have to go back to Mr Morales or STAT and try to get your money back from them. WOW,, what a great rule, NOT. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-21-2008, 04:21 PM

Posted By: Anonymous*

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02-21-2008, 04:51 PM

Posted By: johnleon, Who asked you to delete current posts with good names? Was it a board member or current poster to this thread or one of the named authenticators or auction houses?

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02-21-2008, 05:01 PM

Posted By: EricMy guess is one of the later choices.

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02-21-2008, 05:08 PM

Posted By: MikeThe biggest joke in the SCD is to see a "15 year customer service award" in all the Coach's Corner ads. How can this be ? No complaints. This is false hope for novice collectors. How does an advertiser not get the customer service award ? I thought STAT Authentic would be a good company with Jeff and Ted. What went wrong ? Just trying to do something they are not expert in ?

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02-21-2008, 05:48 PM

Posted By: Ricky YHmmm..I don't think they can sell the autograph of the dead person here in the US. But maybe they can at the sports memorabilia store in Ulan Bator. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Ricky Y

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02-21-2008, 05:54 PM

Posted By: DDI think we have a better chance of hearing from Pedro Morales on this thread, than Chris Morales reappearing on here.

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02-21-2008, 06:30 PM

Posted By: Max WederDan Who was dead before the 2006 Masters? Max who plays better croquet than golf

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02-21-2008, 06:44 PM

Posted By: Randy TrierweilerMax, George Archer died on September 25, 2005. He then came back to the Master's in 2006 and autographed the flag. Coach's corner somehow obtained this historic piece.

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02-21-2008, 06:48 PM

Posted By: JoannWith regard to George Archer signature on the 2006 Masters flag. He died maybe 6 months before the Masters itself took place. Is it out of the question that the flag existed that far in advance of the tournament itself? That they make them ahead of time, maybe even in batches of years? It's not like it's a highly dynamic graphic design. It stays the same pretty much - maybe they even have them made up through 2015 or something. I know it sounds like these guys are not only crooks, but they are (inexcusably) sloppy crooks. Still, I think signing for a dead guy is really so careless that maybe it's even beyond some of these guys. So I'm thinking that maybe, is it possible, that someone was gathering actual signatures on a flag that existed 6 months before one of golf's biggest events? Yeah, I'm thinking it's possible. Or it's at least as possible as someone that makes a living forging famous signatures making the stunning blunder of forging a dead guy. I guess it's beyond my comprehension that someone could be that stupid. J

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02-21-2008, 06:54 PM

Posted By: Richard S. Simon"Or it's at least as possible as someone that makes a living forging famous signatures making the stunning blunder of forging a dead guy." There have been numerous instances in the autograph hobby of a signature appearing on an item , with the item being made after the death of the signer. I once saw a govt. postcard, no postmark of course, with a signature of Lou Gehrig. The postcard came out a couple of years after he died. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-21-2008, 07:02 PM

Posted By: JoannWow. Then maybe the forgers aren't sloppy. Maybe they just count on the ignorance of buyers, or that they won't bother to look up something like that. Still, even though it is clear in the case of a postcard that didn't exist until after someone's death, it seems at least possible that this flag existed before the guy died. A PC can show a datable event or be datable itself. But the existence of this flag is not necessarily tied directly to the date of the event it was tied to or even used in. Of course, I have no clue whatsoever how these things work. I think I assumed they would have a stack of (something - flags, towels, whatever) that they pass around to all of these guys to sign in turn. Kind of like team balls that may be signed in spring training well before Opening Day or hosting the All Star game or whatever. With that assumption it seemed reasonable that this circuit would take awhile and that they might want to start it ahead of time so as to have their commemorative items ready when the event started. But as I said that was an assumption, and I truly know nothing of this field or practice. So I obviously defer to Richard's far greater experience and expertise and say ... wow. That's some noive! Oh. And if the flag in question is represented as actually having been USED in the 06 Masters prior to being signed, then case closed anyways. J

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02-21-2008, 07:35 PM

Posted By: Randy TrierweilerJohn F. Kennedy was featured on a Time magazine cover in 1965. See where this is going? Ebay has had to pull the autographed version due to complaints a few times. Nothing surprises me when it comes to ripping people off. I think the longer you do it, the easier it gets and people get careless.

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02-21-2008, 08:04 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosFirst: The "customer satisfaction award". Who issues these things? Do customers spontaneously get together over drinks, and Joey Baggadonuts says: "Hey, those guys at Coach's Corner really satisfy me! Let's give 'em an award!" and everyone agrees and cheers and gets an award printed up? I always wondered about that... I certainly wish I owned an auction house where the authenticator was also my "Public Relations Director" (see article in S.C.D. Mar. 2, 2007), and I had absolutely no obligation to consider anyone else's opinion but his, and if an item he authenticated was disputed I could tell the buyer to go scratch. Hell, I'd have him authenticating EVERYTHING in my catalog! FYI Coach's Corner report per the Better Business Bureau appears below. Of course, I'd bet that the actual number of complaints is much higher. QUOTE Customer Experience Based on BBB files, this company has an unsatisfactory record with the Bureau due to unanswered complaint(s). Customer Complaint Data Number of complaints processed by the BBB over the last 36 months: 3 Number of complaints processed by the BBB in the last 12 months: 2 Complaints Concerned: Selling Practices (1 complaints) 1Company did not respond Contract Disputes (1 complaints) 1Company did not respond The company's size, volume of business and number of transactions may have a bearing on the number of complaints received by the BBB. The complaints filed against a company may not be as important as the type of complaints, and how the company has handled them. The BBB generally does not pass judgement on the validity of complaints filed. UNQUOTE Now, there's been a lot of dispute about what a "forensic document examiner" or "questioned document examiner" is. Here's some info from Wikipedia: Questioned document examination (QDE) is known by many names including forensic document examination, document examination, diplomatics, handwriting examination, and sometimes handwriting analysis, although the latter name is not often used as it may be confused with graphology...The task of forensic document examination is to answer questions about a disputed document using a variety of scientific processes and methods. Many examinations involve a comparison of the questioned document, or components of the document, to a set of known standards. The most common type of examination involves handwriting wherein the examiner tries to address concerns about potential authorship. One task of a forensic document examiner is to determine if a questioned item originated from the same source as the known item(s), then present their opinion in court as an expert witness. Other tasks include determining what has happened to a document, determining when a document was produced, or deciphering information on the document that has been obscured, obliterated or erased... ASTM Standard E444-98 (Standard Description of Scope of Work Relating to Forensic Document Examination) indicates there are four components to the work of a forensic document examiner. It states that an examiner "makes scientific examinations, comparisons, and analyses of documents in order to: (1) establish genuineness or nongenuineness, or to expose forgery, or to reveal alterations, additions or deletions, (2) identify or eliminate persons as the source of handwriting, (3) identify or eliminate the source of typewriting or other impression, marks, or relative evidence, and (4) write reports or give testimony, when needed... There are three possible methods of instruction for an aspiring document examiner: Self-education is the way in which the pioneers of the field began, as there was no other method of instruction. Apprenticeship has become the widespread manner in which many examiners are now taught. In fact, this is the method that is recommended by ASTM in Standard E2388-05. To conform with the ASTM standard such training "shall be the equivalent of a minimum of 24 months full-time training under the supervision of a principal trainer" and "the training program shall be successfully completed in a period not to exceed four years". The training program must also include an extensive list of specific syllabus topics outlined in ASTM Standard E2388-05. College and/or university programs are very limited at this time. This is due, in part, to the relatively limited demand for forensic document examiners. It also relates to the need for extensive practical experience; particularly with respect to handwriting examination. It is difficult to include this degree of practical experience in a normal academic program.. A document examiner may be certified by the American Board of Forensic Document Examiners, Inc. (ABFDE), which was formed in 1977 with a grant from the U.S. Department of Justice. The ABFDE is one of two bodies accredited and recognized by the Forensic Specialties Accreditation Board, Inc (FSAB) to carry out certification of forensic document examiners. To date, there is no federal licensing involved in the discipline. However, the court has recognized the ABFDE as reputable in the case of U.S. v. Buck, 1987, in denying a motion that claimed that handwriting comparisons were unreliable. An applicant to the ABFDE for certification must meet the following requirements: they must be of good moral character, high integrity and good repute; and possess high ethical and professional standing the program is limited to permanent residents of the USA, Canada and Mexico must possess a bachelor degree (or higher) from an accredited academic institution, or equivalent must successfully have completed a full-time training program of at least 2 years duration in a forensic laboratory recognized by the Board must provide three references from forensic document examiners certified or recognized by the Board must be actively engaged in the full-time practise of forensic document examination and must demonstrate a record of appropriate professional activity in forensic document examination In addition to meeting the basic requirements listed above, an applicant must also pass comprehensive written, practical and oral examinations that explore the wide range of problems encountered in document examination. Certificates issued by the ABFDE are valid for five years, and can be renewed. During that five-year renewal period, the diplomate must earn at least 40 continuing education credits. Credits are awarded for a variety of related activities, such as attendance and participation at ABFDE recognized forensic meeting and programs, and publication of articles in journals recognized by the Board. Individuals holding a valid Certificate of Qualification issued by the ABFDE will use the designation "Diplomate of the American Board of Forensic Document Examiners." ABFDE ensures that the applicant satisfies a number of standardized requirements with regular testing to ensure that the examiner performs at the same high level of professionalism, as do the other people in the trade. More-so than merely denoting the attainment of certain academic and minimum standards, board certification indicates that the examiner cares enough about the profession to spend time and effort to adequately prepare himself or herself to properly serve the public. Courts must assess the credibility of the document examiner as an expert witness and to do this they will often rely upon the examiner’s reputation in the profession together with his or her affiliations with credible professional organizations. BFDE The Board of Forensic Document Examiners (BFDE) also provides certification of forensic document examiners. The BFDE is the other body accredited and recognized by the Forensic Specialties Accreditation Board, Inc (FSAB) in this area. NOW -- If you've managed to plow through all of this, the Wikipedia link is: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Questioned_document_examination" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Questioned_document_examination</a> Who wants to contact them and check the credentials of people laying claim to being forensic/questioned document examiners? Anyone want to see if all those continuing education credit were earned? How about the attendance in a "full-time training program of at least 2 years duration in a forensic laboratory"? And the three references? And the "full time employment" as a forensic document specialist? Anyone want to make a statement about "the examiner's reputation in the profession"? AMERICAN ACADEMY OF FORENSIC SCIENCES: Anne Warren Executive Director (719) 636-1100, extension 214 awarren@aafs.org FINALLY: FOURTH REQUEST: Mr. Morales: Your website states, verbatim: QUOTE "An Open Challenge As noted herein, I will meet anyone in a public forum to review and assess my work efforts. Since private communications are often cherry picked to bolster a point of view, at times misdirecting the facts, it is my position that any meetings and communications be conduct in the open. If anyone desires to contact me concerning an open forum, please do not hesitate to call, email or otherwise contact me at anytime". UNQUOTE Mr. Morales, I hereby challenge you to appear, before a group of your peers in the autograph authentication trade and the international press, to: a.) Discuss your "forensic" methods of authentication, and your education and qualifications, using exemplars or otherwise; b.) Describe in detail other criteria you used to authenticate the thousands of various autographs for which you have issued certificates; c.) explain your relationships, if any, with the various consignors, auction houses, galleries, etc. for whom you authenticate, and; d.) assess your work efforts, ie: how have your authentications been received in the autograph market, as a whole. If you wish to limit the discussion to your "work efforts" alone, I would expect your peers would still meet with you, depending on the agenda. I will pay your airfare and hotel room expenses for your attendance at such a forum in the New York area, for a meeting within the next 60 days. As stated above, I expect you would be asked to respond to inquiries from your peers, that is, knowledgeable, recognized dealers of the same material which you have authenticated. Should the location not be convenient for you, I'm sure we can arrange a meeting in Falls Church. Mr. Shelly Jaffe has already graciously agreed to attend, as has Mr. Frank Caiazzo. I assume that this email will reach you, since I do not have your emali address. If anyone posting to this site can confirm delivery to Mr. Morales, I would be much obliged. B. Panagopulos PS Shall I assume that your CONTINUED silence in response to this message means you decline my offer?

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02-21-2008, 08:14 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonJoann - it is possible for that flag to have been manufactured before 2006, but awfully unlikely for it to have been signed by the golfers. I cannot think that the Masters would ask a large group of golfers at the 2005 Masters to sign a flag for the 2006 Masters. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-21-2008, 08:44 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeThis thread was based on two different companies, C. Morales and STAT. I would like to now discuss STAT. They are the most repulsive of all. Their web site claims that they have over a 100 years of experience. Let us look at what that means. Ted Taylor, you failed in the HBO test on the following people, Mantle, Dimaggio, and Williams. You say that you worked for Score Board. I know in fact that you did, the only problem is you have no idea what a real signature looks like. As far as your partner is concerned he is correct when he says that he authenticates for the Babe Ruth Museum. The problem is he did't say it was in person authentication. He has nothing to do with authenticateding older items for the Museum. What really turns my stomach is your COA's. I will print it out on this site and if SCD doesn't have the balls to disqualify you as an authenticator then the people on this site will make it happen. Where in your one hundred years of experience do you have the knowledge of Rock and Roll, History, Movies, Authors, and Aviation. I know that Sitting Bull and George Washington played first base for the Mets. This is the way they authenticate an item using this disclaimer: Verification - STAT Authentic, an LLC registered in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, renders a service in expressing our opinion and knowledge, however, STAT Authentic LLC and its partners/employees does not guarantee the accuracy of our opinion expressed regarding any items submitted for authentication. We assume no liability whatsoever for any loss or damage allegedly sustained as a result of any opinion rendered. STAT Authentic LLC is in no way liable for personal loss due to damage alteration or any other reason once this item leaves our possession. Our seal, signatures, registration number and processing date must appear on this certificate for it to be valid. By the way STAT has authenticated more Beatles pieces in one year than they could have signed( just a guess) CAN ANYONE ON THIS SITE WANT TO HAVE THEIR SEAL OF APPROVAL? STAT, Morales had the balls to come on here, why not you?

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02-21-2008, 08:59 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeI might be speaking out of turn but the same challenge goes out to STAT. I will pay your way to Falls Church or any venue you want. That Goes to CC. and SCD. It is as they say in the octagon "Let get it on". You have a lot of people that never came on this site , and now are telling you how outraged they are. They deserve a reply. I am the same person that SCD would not print a reply when UDA made an effort to make the $85.000 card go away. You also would not a let a letter about Ted Taylor be printed without your editing it. Censorship is something that belongs in a third world country. It doesn't take a genius to know who your allegiance is with. Oh for the good old days when Rocky could print and write what he wanted.

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02-22-2008, 12:39 AM

Posted By: DDShelly, I am going to guess that STAT are the ones that e-mailed Leon. I also think that they could be feeling some pressure from the publisher of SCD that had e-mailed and said he would read this thread. I so hope that is the case. A little civil war that for once will have the innocent victims get justice. Maybe SCD will sell to CC. If you still have a subscription to SCD, and want to retain it when it sells to CC, you get your choice of any 19th Century HOF player photo, in blue or silver sharpie, complete with both Morales and STAT certifications.

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02-22-2008, 06:02 AM

Posted By: J. McMurry Thank you Bill for your response on the Beatles Albums. I used to collect Beatles in the mid 80's (not autographs)and never realized the rarity of a signed album cover, it trully amazes me to know the facts. I'm starting to believe that this thread is past the point of beating a dead horse. no one here is gonna buy from the mentioned parties. For this to actually accomplish something, pressure needs to be put on the media (SCD) that enables the mentioned parties to appear legit to the mass of novice collectors. I doubt that the Masters gets involved in any way with golfers signing their event flags, in fact, if given the chance they would probably not allow the flags into the secoundary market at all. That Woods and Palmer sigs on that flag look horrible. Knowing what I've read about wood's signing habits, I cant imagine him signing something like that.

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02-22-2008, 06:25 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosMr. McMurry, SCD is not the place to stop. I'd like to hear from anyone on this board with contacts to any major member of the press. My initial thoughts are Sports Illustrated, Rolling Stone, Baseball Digest, Sporting News, Geek Monthly, etc., also prominent newspaper contacts.

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02-22-2008, 09:24 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeI said in an earlier thread that if I where to find out the Morales worked at GWU I would retract my statement. I have found out that he was a Criminal Justice Advisor. That being said. It still does not make him a handwriting expert.

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02-22-2008, 11:10 AM

Posted By: J. McMurry"SCD is not the place to stop." You are correct sir. What else can the "little man" collector like myself do to help? (Other than to complain to SCD and/or cancel my subscription.)

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02-22-2008, 11:48 AM

Posted By: RobertWhat can can complaining to SCD do? You think they care? E-mail them and see what happens. Post your success or failure here. You are but one subscription. The hobby has already turned their back on the rag, but they continue to truck along with their paper thin product. It's the GOOD advertisers I take issue with. Why anyone supports this magazine is beyond me. The GOOD advertisers know exactly what is going on and they refrain from doing anything. They keep supporting it with advertising. These advertisers should be taken to the wood shed for a talkin'. As far as this thread goes, it's fascinating (love the golf piece) and I have enjoyed catching up. I would like to know if there are any lawyers on this board that could contact me as well. There are like four billion lawyers in this world and when asked to step forth in this Forum, no one comes forth. What gives there? Keep up the great work guys. Bob

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02-22-2008, 11:54 AM

Posted By: DDRobert, Not sure who you are referring to regarding the lawyers that won't step forth. Adam, Steve, and many others are regular contributors to this board. Earlier in this thread, Shelly Jaffe, liked by some and not by others, asked for some legal help and got his answer quickly. Maybe if you are specific in the context of your questions, someone would answer. If you want to ask for free advice or guidance that someone is usually paid to provide, I'd ask a little nicer if I didn't know the person who could be helping me.

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02-22-2008, 12:07 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonDD - do you like Shelly ?? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-22-2008, 12:14 PM

Posted By: RobertPublicly (in the past as well), people have asked for specific law help on the Board and perhaps ideas were traded publicly, but questions don't appear to be answered on a public level in detail as requested. I didn't think I asked badly. If there are any lawyers out there, I promise I will be kind to them. How's that? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Just frustrated at this hobby, DD. That's all. Bob

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02-22-2008, 12:44 PM

Posted By: DDRich, I have never met Shelly. I can say that I believe in hope and redemption. I also feel that if Shelly has decided to turn his unique knowledge regarding the autograph industry to good purposes, that we take advantage of it. He has served his time, and says he made restitution where possible. That is good enough for me. Why do you ask?

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02-22-2008, 01:31 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonDD - just kidding around,,, that's why I put the <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> sign there. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-22-2008, 01:36 PM

Posted By: DDSorry Rich. Long night for me and I got up a little while ago.

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02-22-2008, 01:55 PM

Posted By: PCMost of the vintage card collecting lawyers stopped looking at this nearly incomprehensible AUTOGRAPGH thread, which is clogging up the vintage CARD forum, five hundred and sixty posts ago. We get it. We actually got it several hundred posts ago. I guess this will continue until the number posts exceeds the number of bogus autographs certified by Morales, or STAT, or whoever.

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02-22-2008, 02:12 PM

Posted By: Chuck Tapiasome of us don't care for your stupid little t-whatever cards either? By Shelly stepping up to create this thread, it has brought nothing but more readers here. Stay the hell off of this thread then if you don't like it. I'm sorry you can't read about the "E-bay 10% off" thread quicker or about your t-210 error card or t-206 reprints or tiny url threads.....I really don't give a rats ass about that. So we are even. I for one have found this eye opening, captivating and informative. I think that we should have a regular Thread here called "Ask Shelly", where autograpgh collectors can get some inside advice as to how to tell a Dimaggio fake baseball from an original for instance? What are some tell tale signs of the forged item, stuff like that? What could be better than for Shelly to answer qustions to the public he decieved. He deserves a chance to make amends. Sorry to be posting on your precious little card forum Mr. T.

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02-22-2008, 02:13 PM

Posted By: sagard"We get it. We actually got it several hundred posts ago." Sadly I don't think I get it. Am I to trust nothing signed that I didn't witness?

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02-22-2008, 02:24 PM

Posted By: PCIn the spirit of not feeding the trolls - "delete".

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02-22-2008, 02:25 PM

Posted By: DDI just heard back from Joe Polski, who is the Chief Operations Officer for the International Association for Identification (IAI). This is an organization that Chris Morales lists on his resume. Mr. Polski indicated to me that they will look into the information I provided, which was a link to this thread.

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02-22-2008, 02:45 PM

Posted By: Chuck TapiaGo "slab" yourself wad.

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02-22-2008, 02:57 PM

Posted By: DDPC, Please take this to another thread. If it is troublesome to you that this thread is so long, then ignore it. The people who have been posting in this thread feel it is an important issue. We can demonstrate to this community, as well as others that have been reading, and will be reading this, that we are an intelligent, serious, group. I am all for a little levity, and make my share of jokes in this thread, and posts in other threads. However, I think we have had enough time spent already in this thread with conflict on issues pertinent to the subject, that we don't need to have conflict revolving around if this thread is still important. Thanks, and nothing personal. Just trying to stay on topic.

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02-22-2008, 03:12 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosSlab yourself - I'm still laughing! Slab this! It's genuine. Still looking for press contacts - pls assist

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02-22-2008, 03:17 PM

Posted By: MikeI think the ultimate goal of this thread is to increase the probability that when you buy an item that it is real not fake. To do that, we must get rid of the poor authenticators or at least advise all novice autograph collectors which companies are good and which are shady. Some opinions are definitely better than others. I think PCCE in April will be a good start. I don't think they invited Coaches Corner, STAT or Morales. I would be great if these guys are there as part of a round table discussion. I'd like to hear their side of the story.

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02-22-2008, 03:26 PM

Posted By: DDFor example, some levity, but still pertinent. <a href="http://moralesforensics.com/activities.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://moralesforensics.com/activities.htm</a> Notice how in the training on proper collection and handling of physical evidence in foreign countries, that the experts assumedly advise their trainees not to wear gloves, because he is not.

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02-22-2008, 04:14 PM

Posted By: Mike NavarroFound this clip today that talks about the Marino forgeries and Frangipanni and the other forensic authenticators. Interesting to watch. Take care, Mike Navarro edited to add that there is a link above to the youtube of the same video...the autostart on the one you posted is bogging down this thread.

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02-22-2008, 04:22 PM

Posted By: Rick McQuillanPC, I totally agree with you. First of all, this is old news. Second, isn't there an autograph forum somewhere where this would be more appropriate? Third, we should all know by now that "authenticators" and "forensic experts" are full of ****. By my math, authenticator = crook, COA = garbage. If I offended any authenticators or forensic experts - good. Rick <img src="http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g9/buymycards/santa.jpg">

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02-22-2008, 04:33 PM

Posted By: PCThanks Rick. David -- I appreciate your civil response, but I don't need to take this to another thread -- this thread needs to be taken to another forum.

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02-22-2008, 04:41 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffePC,just to let you know that when I asked for some help I had ten emails from 10 different lawyers on this site. You might not think this thread is important but it seems to have had some impact.

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02-22-2008, 04:46 PM

Posted By: DDPC, If this was in the memorabilia section, would your reaction be the same? If it bothers you that Shelly is in the forefront, would you rather he still be selling forgeries? Should we not try to clean up one area of the hobby? Call out the people who tamper cards. See if Gary Moser will get on board with you to find the fakes. Or, do it yourself. Remember, the people who are forging/altering cards and signatures are smart. They flaunt their credentials, set up web sites, basically tell you that anything can be faked or authenticated. If I recall correctly, there was a site that may have come down in a short time, that said it could repair cards. Bottom line is they need to be put out of business. If you don't like the thread, move on.

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02-22-2008, 04:56 PM

Posted By: PCDavid -- I think you're missing the point. This is not a memorabilia board. On this board, when someone with card alteration knowledge speaks, like Kevin Saucier, we listen, and (most) appreciate it. Shelly might be the most important reformer in your hobby, and we've heard all about it. At this point, this thread is only autograph collectors (some of whom are clearly off their medications)talking to each other -- on a vintage card forum. But if the mods will allow it to continue, so be it. Good luck.

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02-22-2008, 05:02 PM

Posted By: DDI don't collect autographs. That doesn't mean I don't care about people getting ripped off. If I can bring something positive to this effort, great. If I can't, I'll keep my mouth shut. But I certainly wouldn't go around whining about what other people are discussing. Sounds like your the one who got ripped off at some point.

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02-22-2008, 05:37 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaThis thread probably should have been started on the memorabilia board, but there is no way to move it over there now and there has been a little bit accomplished in this thread. The autograph collectors have kept it all in this one thread so I don't know why someone would be on this thread complaining about it. Not too hard to ignore one thread on this forum whether it have 1 reply or 600. Coming in here and name calling serves no point.

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02-22-2008, 05:48 PM

Posted By: Mike McculloughThis may be old news to you PC but to me it is like continuing education. It is relevant to this board because it deals with pre war as well as post war material.. Whether it be an autographed baseball or a card. Im not an Autograph collector per say and didnt realize this problem never really went away. I appreciate a thread like this because it gives the public a RE awareness of a problem that has never left. I posted a link to this thread and the link to the HBO videos on my website and have received some very positive feedback. A person whom I work with thanked me and said he was just speechless after watching the videos. Ya see,,, this thread has reached people in a positive way that you cannot even realize... So with that said,, shut your pie hole slabhead.... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I put a smiley there so all is good. Capiche???

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02-22-2008, 06:10 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosPC - I never heard of Net 54 until about ten days ago. Never posted a damned thing on a forum, and always thought forums were used to share knowledge and expertise in the field of plaster kewpie dolls of the 1920's (or more nefarious purposes). And I don't give a rat's arse for baseball cards - I'd take your entire collection and put it in my kid's bicycle spokes so that his boke would sound cool. But I don't care about cards, just as YOU don't care about autographs. I found this thread only through word of email. I don't know if you're right or wrong. Is this site totally devoted, exclusively, to baseball cards? If so, I apologize. Is too much bandwidth being used? We are talking about sales of $20+million dollar per year or more in material that is being debated here. That's $20 MILLION. PER YEAR! What's that trimmed(?) Honus Wagner card worth? A measly million bucks? Twenty Million Dollars from the pockets of people who are buying this stuff to pay for: - their retirement - college tuitions - medical expenses etc. etc. You label those who have been ripped-as as "crybabies". The correct verbiage is "victims", and they're finally pissed-off, and hopefully have found a common voice. Lighten up, chum.

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02-22-2008, 06:25 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaThe lightening up needs to go both ways. Stop with the name calling and back and forth. This is a CARDS ONLY forum, but Leon was nice enough to let this thread stay here. It belongs in the memorabilia forum and denigrating card collectors who are hosting this thread is only going to get this thread off topic and likely locked so lets try to keep it on topic.

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02-22-2008, 06:25 PM

Posted By: EricAs I've stated before, I used to collect autographs. But being that I've been ripped off so many times with bogus signatures and even worse COA's, I got out of the hobby. I will never collect them again. I visit this site for the cardboard content. That's my hobby and I love it. I don't collect high grade cards, so I don't worry that much about counterfeit cards, and everything that I purchase is slabbed. I've learned to do my research as a result of my bad experiences in the autograph collecting hobby. So am I a crybaby? Maybe. The autographs were supposed to mean something to me and my family. Maybe this thread is in the wrong place. But as stated above, it is one thread, that can be overlooked if you have no interest. I think it's very informative and I appreciate what is being done here. Something needs to be done for the "victims". These guys need to pay.

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02-22-2008, 06:36 PM

Posted By: leonDan B is absolutely correct. This should be a cards ONLY forum per the rules and really even more so since we have our own memorabilia forum. I let this thread go as I know Shelly and I DID want it to get a lot of exposure. This side does get more exposure. It's that important of a topic to the sports collectibles field. HOWEVER, It is considered off topic on this side of the board and we shouldn't forget that. As long as it stays in this thread then no one has to open it, was my thought. It would be more appropriate in the memorabilia forum on this front page...where it says " Memorabilia Forum" and has a picture of a glove....take care ya'll.... edited for clarification

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02-22-2008, 06:56 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosAgreed...Let's stay on topic (but off topic?) This is a vitally important subject, as evident from the number of posts here, albeit this may not be the right venue. The press is picking up on this, and that's a good thing for everyone. A lot of good is being done here, and I'm sure everyone agrees with that. If no damage is being done, a little forbearance is in everyone's best interest.

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02-22-2008, 07:17 PM

Posted By: PCBill -- we know you don't care about cards (you said so), but I never said I don't care about autographs. I have 40+ HOF and other autographs (maybe more), across the four major sports, including a few items that might really surprise you. But most regulars here already know that the autograph hobby has been destroyed by fraud. As such, it isn't what we collect, nor is it the focus here (and that isn't going to change, notwithstanding that the three people Mike forced to look at his web page may have benefitted greatly from this thread). What I don't care for is a 600+ off-topic thread that keeps popping-up at the top of this board, with the same repetitive information, from the same group (many of whom are not even autograph collectors, and most of whom have never posted here before, and probably will not participate in anything on-topic to this forum). Further, most of these people, following the slightest questioning of why they are here, felt completley free to denigrate the collecting habits of the board. Sorry, but that's annoying. Morevoer, the ongoing character assasination that is the subject of this thread is very disturbing, even though every word of it may be true. I'm sure the mods did not intend to provide a public forum for business destruction -- IMO, this is a dangerous thing for the mods to permit to continue (or even continue to exist on the board), but that's their call.

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02-22-2008, 07:24 PM

Posted By: Jim VB1. What is the record for most posts in a given thread? I've only been here about a year and this is the longest I've seen. 2. Is anybody making book on the final number of posts here? (And do we have to guess the exact number or is it like The Price Is Right where it's closest without going over? And is there any over/under action? 3. To Rick M - Is that the Santa rookie?

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02-22-2008, 07:29 PM

Posted By: SteveThis thread has gotten too long and unwieldy for me to follow but I see recent comments that sadden me about people not wanting to collect autographs. Our experience has been that with a JSA or PSA LOA, there is literally a 99% chance there is no issue. From our perspective, the successful marketing of these two companies has allowed the autograph business to grow at an unprecedented level, both in terms of prices, number of dealers/resellers and most importantly, number of collectors. While I am not going to get in the middle of any disputes here, we would simply suggest that any potential autograph collectors who follow these guidelines, will almost certainly not encounter any problems. Sorry to prolong a memorabilia thread but I just think that this is an important point to make... Steve Verkman Clean Sweep Auctions

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02-22-2008, 07:42 PM

Posted By: PCBill: for some reason your name looked familiar. So, I pulled my autographed State Dept. photo of Dean Acheson off the wall. On the back of the frame I kept the correspondence from the seller -- Alexander Autographs, signed by Basil A. Panagopulos. Purchased about four years ago, I think. Small world! Note to self ... careful who you insult, it might just be a customer! But no worries, I have no doubt it is real. Looks great next to my autographed photo of General Marshall. It's a Harry Truman cabinet thing. Alas, I am prolonging this thread.

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02-22-2008, 07:58 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosPC, Well, I'll be damned...better get it checked out right away! Remember - you just said I'd be surprised what you owned...and I am! Har, har! Where have you been? I need the money! Seriously - this is a VERY important thread. Yes, it'll run out of stem but a little longer for the right people to see it and the wheels will be put in motion. We're not here to ruin people - just to get at the truth.

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02-22-2008, 08:25 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeWhen I started this thread it was to reply to Mr Morales challenge. I have seen over and over again people talking about Coaches Corner, The Donald, Morales and others. It lasted for about five comments and it was over. 600 plus comments makes me think that we hit a nerve . I love the card side and I have seen thread after thread about fake cards. I also have seen threads talk about doctoring a card,trimming a card and over grading of cards. If you don't think that this is not the same thing you are mistaken. Part of operation bullpen was busting people that changed cards to a higher grade.. I will tell you that Leon has helped you guys more than you will ever know and in a small helped as well . I think that is why he let this thread continue. I am sorry if the card side is upset but let this thread run its course. I think before its over you might be very surprised at the outcome.

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02-22-2008, 08:38 PM

Posted By: PCYou're a good sport Bill, and an honest, reputable guy.

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02-22-2008, 08:46 PM

Posted By: DJThe card side should not be upset. It's one single thread. There is no invasion, just one large soldier. This thread is getting A LOT of attention, but it's still only one thread. You can always fight with Dorskind in another thread. Or start an Al Rosen thread if you want to compete. The one thing I know for sure is that Shelly better get thread #714 and #755. Once it gets to 1,000, maybe you start over at the Memorabilia side for the sequel if this thing still has legs. This is an important thread and it will eventually pass, but for now I think important steps have been made here. Mr. Verkman, a lot of people feel this way and a lot of people have started collecting cards (and came to this board for salvation) and turned their back on autographs. It doesn't help that Jimmy clone looked like a fool on TV with "Bando-gate" and PSA/DNA is authenticating Clem Labine balls as perished Heisman Trophy winner Ernie Davis. But for the most part you are correct about these two companies. DJ Edited: badd speling

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02-22-2008, 08:51 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosPC - Ya damned brokers/bankers/fi-nan-seers! No wonder they're ee-victin' me next week! You guys never let go! Appreciate your kind comments - just another happy customer I've managed to con...I mean, satisfy! Best regards, BP

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02-22-2008, 09:02 PM

Posted By: FGNMr. Verkman I know you really don't want to get too involved here but since you posted I'd really like to hear your thoughts on a previous posters comments which stated: 'It's the GOOD advertisers I take issue with. Why anyone supports this magazine is beyond me. The GOOD advertisers know exactly what is going on and they refrain from doing anything. They keep supporting it with advertising. These advertisers should be taken to the wood shed for a talkin.' Not intending to single you out by asking, but I haven't noticed any other SCD advertisers who have posted. If any others are lurking I'd welcome their thoughts as well. I will say that I too am guilty in that my subscription is still current. For the first time in more than 20 years I will not be renewing.

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02-22-2008, 09:19 PM

Posted By: Chuck Tapiawhy don't you fill the babe ruth wax ball up with wax from your ear? Casa De Tapia has a nice mountain view in the San Fernando Valley. With my office overlooking the pool. My Babe Ruth Ball decorates the office!!It's doesn't need ear wax to fill the letters. It's Gem Mint and it comes complete with a LOA from Christopher Morales, so I know it's real!!Unlike that waxy, oil laiden ball with Tim Bottomskly and Ruth yo have in your safe. WOWO!!!! At least I have the balls to post my name. The fact you can't call me out by my monniker, show's what an ass you are. Lay in to me if you want, but I don't call you by your name other than your stupid PC t-210. Let's just stay on topic. First quitting cards due to slab heads like you, and now getting beat up trying to discuss and learn about autographs. Thanks PC for the Welcome. Why don't you post your name now you chicken s? You know who I am. I am FUDD

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02-22-2008, 09:23 PM

Posted By: DDChuck, Can you post a pic of your Ruth ball?

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02-22-2008, 10:03 PM

Posted By: PCIf people dealt with reputable sellers like Bill, instead of buying autos on the cheap from the crooks that ruined the autograph hobby, they wouldn't be so angry, and maybe the crooks would have been out of business a long time ago.

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02-22-2008, 11:14 PM

Posted By: DDI agree with PC. Part of the problem would have to be the people who know they have been ripped off, but are trying to protect their "investment". Well, they can always trade them amongst each other. Figure the real value is 1/20th of a cent, same as a coupon. We're just marching on trying to stop anyone else from getting scammed.

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02-22-2008, 11:34 PM

Posted By: Chuck TapiaSorry to hurt your feelings pal with all that talk about my financial loss, but I was kidding about the Ruth Ball. Lest anyone think I was serious. I used to collect quite a bit so I'm no stranger to the problem in the hobby. This is about fraud plain and simple and the people who are perpetrating it on the public. Sure I've been a victim once or twice? Do you think I really care? No. That's why the clowns like this get away with it. I was kidding by calling you a "slab" and you get all bent out of shape? Nice sense of humor. I quit the hobby with a pretty decent collection, back in the day when you could just collect the cards and you didn’t have to buy everything graded for fear of being ripped off. The hobby changed for the worse. Go waste your money with your graded slab cards and go put them in a box. I'll do what I do. I only re-entered the collecting of balls and a few decorative pictures for my office. This is why this is a parallel issue to what card collectors are also facing. It’s all a matter of perspective. I'm sorry I didn't discover this or find it fascinating 20 years ago. It is fascinating NOW which is why YOU would even follow it and the 600 plus entries. By the way, I was not singled out by anyone. Leon wanted to check my e-mail address you dufus. He said I could verbally slap you around as much as I'd like because he doesn't like you and thinks you are a pompous A, which I tend to agree. Stay on the topic, get off the pot, leave your name or get the h off this thread that is hurting your cards and your pride so much. Who really cares? The fact is, this has turned into a great site to offer this much information to people, new fresh collectors and old crusty ones of all types of collectibles and you come in here and shellac them like your stupid old Tom Billingworth /Ruth Ball with the wax chip that nobody cares about. It isn't about you or me. Let these guys stick to the issue and stop knit picking at me and hiding behind your PC and snipping people who are decent enough to share their name and then having "Pie Hole" calling out people by usingtheir real names. It really says everything about the little coward you are. Real class.

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02-23-2008, 05:21 AM

Posted By: PCIn the spirit of not feeding the trolls - "delete"

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02-23-2008, 06:10 AM

Posted By: Richard SimonEnough already guys. This thread was not meant to degenerate into a pissing contest between two people. Take it to private e mail or SHUT UP. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-23-2008, 06:14 AM

Posted By: J. McMurry Well, if the press is following this thread, they've probably dismissed it's credibility now as it seems to have turned into a comical B-Slap fest. One point. I've heard several mentions of people collecting autographs to pay for college, weddings, etc. If the only reason you collect is as an investment to hit the "mother load" down the road,then I dont feel much sympathy toward your losses, I'm sorry I just dont. If your looking for money making investments stick to the stock market or buy gold, real estate. People jumping into this hobby buying up stuff as an investment just muddy up the waters, by inflating prices and making crooks rich which erodes the enjoyment out of it for the true collectors. Personally I collect both cards and autographs because they are a link to things that I enjoy; sports, history, and memories from my childhood. Now, back to the name calling jamboree.

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02-23-2008, 06:24 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonJ Mc - I totally agree with you. The story I related about the young couple who came to my table to sell his autograph collection for their wedding, well I don't think the man had been investing in autographs. I think it was a case of well we need the money so I am going to have to sacrifice my autograph collection. That was why I had so much empathy for them. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-23-2008, 07:22 AM

Posted By: leonChuck- I did NOT SAY those words about PC. PC has been on the board a long time and while I might not agree with everything anyone says I DID NOT say those things. The reason I asked you to email me is correct in that I was making sure you were who you posted as...and as far as I can tell you are. I also told you to carry on as those are the forum rules.....You can say most anything you want to but you HAVE to be known.....I was having virus issues last night and got rid of most everythin in my sent file and deleted file or I would have posted what I said to you.....take care

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02-23-2008, 07:28 AM

Posted By: SteveFGN, I of course would love to see Coach's Corner barred from SCD. There are also other corrupt people (even gasp card dealers) too but the publishers of SCD are not exactly soliciting my input and that is a shame but as a business, SCD is still useful to me as a marketing avenue. Just as there are dealers who set up at shows who are crooked, it is very rare to find a promoter who will throw them out...

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02-23-2008, 08:40 AM

Posted By: Ken EcclesHi Steve, it's been a while since Bev and I met you in KC,We tusted you then and still do today. As to Shelly and the rest,Great Job coming out with this topic as to collecting. As to the Press? You might try the guy known as the "Give Me A Break" John S--, he helped us in many ways back 1980s on a few cases. Thanks again,Leon for your site. Ken Eccles KCMO

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02-23-2008, 09:20 AM

Posted By: Chuck Tapia "other than disrupting message boards, as you obviously don't collect cards (I doubt you even collect autographs, and if you do, you certainly aren't very good at it)." You are the one that started whining about this not being the place for this discussion. You disrupted this awsome dialogue. You have started the wedge here by calling me out by my complete name while you hide behind yours. Just not right when EVERYONE on this posting was told several times to use their real name. I might be a troll, but you are and arrogant Pie Hole, who thinks you know everything. Trying to protect your card territory while refusing to get along with people who come along. You are probably the biggest "Richard" I have ever encoountered in any board room. POST your name wise A or e-mail me direct if you have anything further. I also don't appreciate the Racial comment about "CASA de TAPIA" are you insinuating something there bub, behind your PC monniker. Post your name, e-mail me directly or shut the F up. Love, The Troll. "Hi Chuck I was just making sure you are Chuck T. It’s for everyone’s protection. Carry on and take care…. Regards leon" Leon-Here was your E-mail to me, incase anyone thought I was serious. I'm sorry that a new user would have to defend himself in this kind of forum. I think it's pretty pathetic that you allow this Pie Hole to shoot his mouth full of cream at the board, disrupt a beautiful thread on a relevant topic, use racially sensitive comments about my surname and let him keep posting while not sharing with everyone who he is.

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02-23-2008, 09:33 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeTime for you two guys to stop fighting and let us get back to business. Here are two baseballs. One of them is of a signature of Clark Griffith on a GO GO SOX baseball. The problem with that is that it was produced five years after Griffith died. The other one is of Lefty Grove in the same ink and the same hand writing. The problem with that ball is that he signed left handed and this is from some one signing right handed. These items where taken down from EBAY and the seller said that the coa's came from non other than Morales. If he has a problem with that statement then please reply. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203706680.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203706643.JPG">

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02-23-2008, 09:37 AM

Posted By: leonA couple of quick thoughts.....In your post above you said: "By the way, I was not singled out by anyone. Leon wanted to check my e-mail address you dufus. He said I could verbally slap you around as much as I'd like because he doesn't like you and thinks you are a pompous A, which I tend to agree. Stay on the topic, get off the pot, leave your name or get the h off this thread that is hurting your cards and your pride so much. Who really cares?" I am not sure why you lied on this board about what my email said but you did out and out lie...no smiley face, no "just kidding" comment. Thanks for posting my response email to you which is exactly what I said. Where did it say I didn't like PC or anything of that nature? Secondly, as I have said all along I will give out contact info for folks on the board with respect to this kind of thread. If you want PC's contact info and name all you have to do is email me. I will give it to you. Please refrain from saying I said something in the future when I didn't say it......Not anything personal here...take care

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02-23-2008, 09:55 AM

Posted By: PCNot worth it.

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02-23-2008, 10:01 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeStop this crap. This thread is more important than two children fighting with each other. Take it to another thread.

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02-23-2008, 10:01 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonThe card manufacturers and hobbyists were worried that children were not becoming collectors, and that they were being lost to the hobby. They should have no fear, the children are here. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-23-2008, 10:03 AM

Posted By: Martin NealListen guys. The first one that stops will wins.

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02-23-2008, 10:36 AM

Posted By: Aaron Patton...anyone receive their March 7 issue of SCD today? Full page CC bio (page 24) [in line with SCDs 2008 Show & Auction Guide]. "...we don't travel the country pursuing signatures as much" (i.e. we've got a big back-room, and a ton of ink) Where do these Rube Waddell cuts come from? Trees? Holy smokes...how do they sleep at night? [Edit: Spelling]

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02-23-2008, 10:49 AM

Posted By: Scott Mt. JoyI just wanted to comment that I have been following this thread from the start and I have learned more in it than in any other. I am mainly a vintage card collector but I do buy auto's from time to time and this thread scares me to death. It bothers me to think how much fake stuff I have bought in the past and how much this will definatly affect my future buying habbits. I plan to buy a Clemente auto down the road and this has given me tons to consider when I do. I really hope something positive comes out from all this. Thanks Leon for letting this thread run and in the main forum.

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02-23-2008, 10:58 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeGlad to see that the kids are stopping the fighting. --

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02-23-2008, 11:14 AM

Posted By: Ricky YI think it can be considered a valid topic because fake autographs have appeared on baseball cards both modern and vintage and I know some folks here collect autographed cards. Ricky Y

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02-23-2008, 11:23 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeHere are some delightful items from Coaches Corner, presented for your enjoyment. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203708073.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203708092.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1203708129.JPG">

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02-23-2008, 11:35 AM

Posted By: barrysloateThe Ruth on the silver certificate looks really bogus. Say, haven't you guys resolved this issue by now? Just curious.

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02-23-2008, 11:44 AM

Posted By: Josh SiegelIsn't defacing a US dollar with a fradulent signature a major no-no????

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02-23-2008, 11:52 AM

Posted By: MikeI hope anyone who advertises in SCD is asking for lower ad rates due to the decrease in circulation. I also will not be renewing my subscription and I go back to the "Trader Speaks" days. It was a great magazine at one time, but I can't support this anymore. They need to bring back Bob Lemke who is a great hobby guy and turn this into a great mag again. I'm sure Bob doesn't want to be part of what is going on there now.

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02-23-2008, 11:54 AM

Posted By: J. McMurryWow! Thats gotta be the largest Lefty Grove sig I've ever seen! lol, You can see that from a mile away! Back to business. I've got questions for Richard,Shelly or anyone else on the board. 1. in your estimation, what percentage of legit Ruth sigs exist that were signed with just "Sincerely", and not personalized? 2. What is the likelyhood that Nap Lajoie would sign a 3x5 in 1950 with a ballpoint pen? 3. Was it ever revealed as to who was buying all those fake autographs for UDA after They stopped using K.Keating? * I'm always looking for this type of info so as to better myself in collecting. Thanks.

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02-23-2008, 01:27 PM

Posted By: Richard Simon1. in your estimation, what percentage of legit Ruth sigs exist that were signed with just "Sincerely", and not personalized? ans - Ruth certainly favored personalizing, I would guestimate MAYBE 25-30%, but that is only a guess, others might disagree. 2. What is the likelyhood that Nap Lajoie would sign a 3x5 in 1950 with a ballpoint pen? ans - Ballpoint pens were around in 1950 but they had not been around for very long. He had a window of opportunity to sign with ballpoint, but not a big window. He liked to sign and date his autograph. 3. Was it ever revealed as to who was buying all those fake autographs for UDA after They stopped using K.Keating? ans - As far as I know they did not stop using Kevin Keating, they just started to buy from other dealers also. I don't know the name(s) of the people involved in buying for UD. I do know that Shelly exposed a UD card that sold for $85,000 with four autographs on it, two that were fake. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-23-2008, 01:50 PM

Posted By: J. McMurryThanks Richard, I have hundreds of questions like those and I could talk for hours on end about players and autographs,but I try not to ask too much of dealers like yourself and Keating because I know it's your business. I asked Ron K. about those UDA cards about 6 mo.s before shelly broke the story on that 85k one. He said he had seen some fake cobbs out there, but didnt offer much info beyond that. I got the impression that he just didnt care much for the sig. chase cards.

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02-23-2008, 02:45 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeJ - Richard did not mention to you that he and I also found a number of other cards that had bogus autographs on them, from UD and other companies. They are illustrated on Richard's website at www.richardsimonsports.com/hofauto2.htm Pretty amazing that this company could do such a thing. Upper Deck never conceded that they had bad autographs but they hired an authenticator after this crap was exposed.

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02-23-2008, 10:43 PM

Posted By: Anonymous*

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02-23-2008, 10:48 PM

Posted By: JimBWhat does it mean if this thread makes it to 666? JimB

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02-24-2008, 08:09 AM

Posted By: J. McMurryWho's the authenticator UDA is using now? I coulda sworn I read a statement by Keating that led me to believe that UDA stopped buying his stuff because they found someone to sell to them at a cheaper price. I have seen those cards on Richard's site, they are pathetic.

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02-24-2008, 08:23 AM

Posted By: Aaron Patton ...received an email yesterday stating UDA and Hunt Auctions just signed a deal.

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02-24-2008, 08:24 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeSpence is doing it know. It is really funny that UDA would not admit that the Ruth and Johnson in the $85,000 card where forged. They said whom do you think is right UDA or a felon. The problem was that Richard, Spence, PSA and three others also found them to be forged as well. Under pressure from many people they where forced to hire some one from outside.

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02-24-2008, 08:44 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonCorrect me if I am wrong, but this is my understanding of what happened: UD started buying autographs from Keating. When they discovered the "bargains" on ebay and lower prices from others, they said why are we paying such high prices when we can buy cheaper. The result of that thinking led to the crap autographs illustrated on my website. As far as I know they now buy from several dealers/auctions. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-24-2008, 08:54 AM

Posted By: anthonybump to get rid of 666 replies...

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02-24-2008, 11:54 AM

Posted By: JohnI was guided here by another Forum and must say that I am impressed with it all. A few general comments as a former autograph collector who has turned his attention to saving up a little money to buy some older baseball and hockey cards. First off, this is not a petty rant and we are not small minded people. How are we small minded? These words used by Ted Taylor about a quarter of the way up in this message board. I saw your Hughie Jennings authenticated single signed ball in Coach's Corner SA that fetched a mighty, whopping $222, instead of $8,000 to $10,000 -guesstimate- that it would have if sold through Mastro, REA, CS or Lelands. Second, as a person who likes to believe he has a collection full of Detroit heroes -Wings and Tigers- I believe I make good choices. I have all the respect in the world for Steve at Clean Sweep Auctions and have purchased a few pieces from him that I know are authentic. But the bothersome thing here is that you and the good sellers of the autograph world who still advertise through SCD have the power to do something. Ever heard of...us or them? How you don't see that by doing nothing is basically the same as saying that this is all okay with you. I'm not here to rip on you Steve, just making an observation. You are one of the good guys. For sure and I look forward to your next auction. I have little power. All I did was cancel my subscription and that did little. It seems. I did pass this message board to a couple of people -reporters- who may find some interest in all of this. Keep up the good work and I shall return with stupid, newbie questions about cards. Regards, John Go Red Wings!

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02-24-2008, 12:10 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonJohn - keep on passing the message. The more the word gets out, the better the hobby can become. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-24-2008, 12:24 PM

Posted By: DDHere's a beauty <a href="http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=76661" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=76661</a> Morales has been promoted to "highly qualified" according to this ad. I hear he is also in line for the grand exalted 33rd level poobah of fake autograph authentication. I wouldn't trust him to authenticate my own signature if I signed it in front of him, and the joint chiefs of staff.

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02-24-2008, 12:49 PM

Posted By: Mark SteinbergHere is my favorite from the current CC Auction (authenticated by Morales...) Check out the snow-white ball and fresh ink. Not to mention, perhaps the worst Foxx imitation signature to be featured in quite some time... <img src="http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff178/perezfan/75593.jpg">

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02-24-2008, 12:57 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonThe Masters flag is still on the CC auction site. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-24-2008, 01:34 PM

Posted By: zman7Richard, perhaps you or someone else who has ties to the media should just focus their attention on that flag. Anyone can boast of their accomplishments and bad mouth the other guy and play the "he said, she said" about who's right and wrong. When we all see bad stuff and try to call it out, we end up having to defend ourselves. We will forever be questioned "how do you know". Collectors seem to trust the bad guys more than the ones trying to help. It seems that doesn't work, as everyone believes that their guy is the best and everyone else doesn't know anything, other than Joanne who I believe must have daily thoughts of Rainbows, Butterflies, and Unicorns to give CC the benefit of the doubt and the what ifs. You can't see that Masters flag for anything other than it is, supposedly signed by a guy who died 6 months before the flag was available. I would think, that posed with that question from the media, CC would have to give some sort of explaination.

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02-24-2008, 01:46 PM

Posted By: DDI e-mailed the webmaster at masters.org. The web site has no real e-mail addresses listed, but that one has at least a chance of reaching a real person. I remember that the Masters organization was successful in having a green jacket withdrawn in a catalog auction, and that was a real jacket. I hope they don't react well to someone putting not only forged signatures on one of their items, but a dead member's as well.

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02-24-2008, 01:48 PM

Posted By: **

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02-24-2008, 01:50 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonGood idea DD. I went to the Master website and there was no contact info. And certain media has been made aware of this thread. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-24-2008, 01:53 PM

Posted By: DDShelly, Have you been in contact with Michael Gibbins from the Babe Ruth Museum? Stevens is making a living off their name, in addition to the fact that people who trust him to authenticate his in-person items, may be the same people buying all the crap from CC.

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02-24-2008, 01:59 PM

Posted By: **

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02-24-2008, 02:04 PM

Posted By: DDI did manage to find a real e-mail address for someone at The Masters and sent them the info anyway.

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02-24-2008, 02:13 PM

Posted By: DDHow about contacting Michael O'Keeffe? Unless anyone strongly objects, as there are many on here that have less than a high opinion of him, I can't think of anyone more likely to run with this than him.

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02-24-2008, 02:19 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonI would hope and think that the Masters might be willing to take some action against forgeries on their flag. Let us hope for the best. And Z you had said "Collectors seem to trust the bad guys more than the ones trying to help". In my experience except for a very, very few isolated individuals with their own agenda, that has not been true. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-24-2008, 02:56 PM

Posted By: Joann"It seems that doesn't work, as everyone believes that their guy is the best and everyone else doesn't know anything, other than Joanne who I believe must have daily thoughts of Rainbows, Butterflies, and Unicorns to give CC the benefit of the doubt and the what ifs." Hmm. Don't believe I have daily thoughts of Rainbows and Butterflies, and I can't recall ever thinking about Unicorns, really. It could be that I was applying some thought and consideration to various possibilities rather than just jumping onto the jam-pile without thinking. But whatever you say, z, what with you knowing me so well and all. Know what? For a lot of people that have never been on this board before, it seems like there is an awful lot of rudeness going on. As Dan B so eloquently stated about 8,000 posts ago, this thread is being hosted (yes, hosted - what a perfect word, with all of the civility it implies) by a forum that has been around a long time. And yet posters who have never spent 5 seconds here have done everything from demand and insist on the right to have this thread to outright name calling. I guess that in being told I must think of light little insubstantial fru-fru things each day, I didn't come out so bad. Still, it does seem like the most basic common courtesies would be in order. One would think it would not even have to be mentioned, but here we are. Joann

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02-24-2008, 03:00 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonI think that for the most part, considering the number of posts here, the thread has been fairly civil. Two children did have a squabble earlier, but after they were politely asked to stop, they did stop. Aside from that name calling there has been little here that has not been on message. And Joann, I don't think of you as thinking about rainbows, butterflies and unicorns, not that there is anything wrong with that <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. --- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-24-2008, 03:04 PM

Posted By: SteveWow this thread has some serious legs. Steve

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02-24-2008, 03:07 PM

Posted By: leonThis is certainly the longest thread ever on Net54 VBCF.....Also, I have asked Zman7 to edit out almost all of his editorials since he doesn't want to be known publicly to the board....It's only the rules and is for everyone's safety.....regards

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02-24-2008, 03:30 PM

Posted By: DDI contacted Phil Mushnick of the NY Post. He has written about these issues before, as well as coming down hard on Don West and others.

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02-24-2008, 04:13 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeYes I have contacted Michael O'Keeffe and he is investigatng the Florida lawsuit against Caizzo and he is reviewing this thread. I have also talked to Mr Gibbins at the Babe Ruth museum. I don't think he is very happy at the claims made about the guys at STAT being the authenticator for the museum when all they do is authenticate in person signings. I could train a monkey to do the same thing. Monkey see the autograph, monkey authenticate the autograph. I have also sent a link to this thread to Keith Olberman and sent him copies of some CC autographs. I don't know if he collects autographs but I bet he would be interested in this. This thread has legs guys and gal and its moving forward.

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02-24-2008, 04:22 PM

Posted By: DDMr. Morales has been busy. <a href="http://moralesforensics.com/news.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://moralesforensics.com/news.htm</a> Shelly, Rich and Bill in particular will love what he has written.

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02-24-2008, 04:31 PM

Posted By: Richard SimonDD - look at the update date on that web page, July 21, 2007. It is old news to us. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-24-2008, 04:36 PM

Posted By: DDRich, I saw that the home page had been recently updated. I thought the material was new as it is fitting to this thread.

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02-24-2008, 05:46 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosAs Shelly knows, above and beyond the press, there is a lot going on. But good poker players never show their cards. Those of you who are concerned about the vast sums of money being extracted from the pockets of innocent, naive victims should notify any press contacts you have, be they sports or news-related, and let them know about this thread. In all my many contacts with the press, I've always found them to be very thorough and exacting...and fair. Also, don't hesitate to put links in your emails to other sites, good and bad, which have been mentioned in this thread. Readers of your emails won't have the time to plow through the 600+ postings above. I've given a few good mail and email addresses above. A nice word for Leon wouldn't hurt, either! Yes, this thread has legs, and hopefully will keep up a good head of steam until the issue is settled, one way or another. (Editted for bad spelng)

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02-24-2008, 07:41 PM

Posted By: Richard SimonI for one would like to thank Leon for allowing this OT thread to remain here on this board. THANKS LEON ! -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-24-2008, 08:33 PM

Posted By: JoannRichard, you are a true gentleman <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Let's carry on with this important (and enlightening) thread. Thx, J

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02-24-2008, 09:19 PM

Posted By: Christopher RizzoI know i am new to this site, but i have extensive knowledge of anything having to do with the Augusta National G.C. aka Masters!! I worked there for almost 7 years!! Anyone with any questions, i would be more than happy to take time to anwser! The problem with A.G.N.C is it's a private club, anything having to do with a Masters flag, more than likely they are not going to get involved unless the flag was counterfeited! I can tell you one thing for sure, as i have been to every tournament since 1988, and that autographs are alot harder to get nowadays especially the top players! I would work hand and hand with them during Masters or if they played as guest of member and alot of them just will not sign unless you are a kid during practice rounds!

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02-24-2008, 10:49 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeIt seems that we have left out our good friends from STAT. I think its time that SCD takes a look at this company for what they really are. I know that when Rocky was with the SCD he stated that any company working for Coaches Corner as authenticator had to be qualified. Well lets look at the Boys from STAT. This is a company that by telling half truths made people believe that authenticated for the Babe Ruth Museum. They also have on there web site a company called Kronbear Sports Promotions, Again all they do is in person authenticating. Know I am going to show you where they try to prove that they actually know something. Stevens-Taylor AuthenticationTeam (STAT) STAT Authentic LLC Offering: Authentication Appraisals Verification Celebrity Appearances & Event Coordination Procurement of Memorabilia Expert Witness Testimony Insurance and Legal Consulting Marketing & Public Relations Collection Liquidation "Let us do the legwork for you" Finally! A full-service hobby organization Do you want someone to verify and authenticate an autograph? Let me ask the two of you this question. When did you become expert witness? What state are qualified in and when did you last testify. What Insurance company in there right mind would let you appraise anything? When did you become Legal Consultants. I am sure many lawyers on here would love to know. Now comes my favorite part. Jeff Stevens and Ted Taylor and the team at STAT do all that ….and a whole lot more. Why not trust all your hobby and authentication needs to two men who have lived and breathed the hobby for decades? They'll give you an honest opinion and certification based on a lot of years of working in the hobby's trenches. Both Jeff and Ted bring sterling hobby reputations and are well known in hobby circles for their many accomplishments. Verification - STAT Authentic, an LLC registered in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, renders a service in expressing our opinion and knowledge, however, STAT Authentic LLC and its partners/employees does not guarantee the accuracy of our opinion expressed regarding any items submitted for authentication. We assume no liability whatsoever for any loss or damage allegedly sustained as a result of any opinion rendered. STAT Authentic LLC is in no way liable for personal loss due to damage alteration or any other reason once this item leaves our possession. Our seal, signatures, registration number and processing date must appear on this certificate for it to be valid. Who are the other people of STAT? You have both been in the trenches. You must have been because you guy sure stink at what your doing. All those years. I want to know how all those years made the two you able to authenticate every signature known to man. Last but not least.After reading there Verification statement. What person in their right mind would want to have anything to do with these two.

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02-25-2008, 05:07 AM

Posted By: SCSTAT and Morales are being critiqued for the lack of teeth behind their gaurantee, i.e. "We are not responsible...only an opinion." Are there any authentication companies out there that WILL gaurantee their work? My understanding, when I was more involved in the industry, was that PSA/DNA (not to pick on them, just what I know) would only refund the authentication fees if an item turned out/was proven to be bad. Getting a check for $150 isn't much comfort if I bought a fake Ruth ball. I can certainly understand an authentication company's hesitation to slap a $25,000 gaurantee on an item for a $150 fee...but this isn't that uncommon in other industries, albeit often at a % of an item's value rather than a flat rate. If they don't have any such gaurantees, the various LOAs are nothing more than opinions, which are built on reputations that are only as good as the person's current standing in the industry.

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02-25-2008, 05:10 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosRe: Ted Taylor and STAT Authentics, I copied the following off theyneedglasses.com: What hat will Ted Taylor wear today? In their March 2, 2007 issue, Sports Collectors Digest published an article titled "Coach's [Corner] auction business thriving 23 years later" under the banner: "2007 Show and Auction Guide". The flattering article also had a photograph of "Coach's public relations director", Mr. Ted Taylor...that's nice...distinguished looking guy... WHAT?!? Ted Taylor?!? I know that name from somewhere... Better do a little looking to refresh my memory! Hmmmm..... We'll start at the Coach's Corner web site. Here he is - well whadayaknow, he gave a testimonial to his own company! That's a little sneaky. Look: "They are my number one choice for buying and consigning." Ted Taylor -- Former VP of Fleer, Scoreboard, and Hobby Pioneer (visit <a href="http://www.tedtaylor.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.tedtaylor.com/</a>) How about Taylor's site, www.tedtaylor.com? If you look at his "Collector's Corner" column there, you can't help but notice that there's a large, loud link direct to...Coach's Corner Auction. And his column sets forth a whole bunch of prices realized at CC's last auction. Well, isn't that what a "public relations director" is supposed to do? Well, there's just one problem. Ted Taylor is a principle of STAT Authentics. And he's also part of STAT's "authentication team". STAT Authentics "authenticates" a great deal of material for Coach's Corner auctions. I think I'm going to barf... That being said, can somebody please tell us... HOW CAN AN INDEPENDENT AUTHENTICATOR "BUY AND CONSIGN" AT THE SAME AUCTION AT WHICH HE IS EMPLOYED AS AN AUTHENTICATOR, OR FOR THAT MATTER, AT ANY AUCTION? IS IT ETHICAL FOR AN INDEPENDENT AUTHENTICATOR TO PROMOTE ANY AUCTION, ESPECIALLY ONE AT WHICH HE IS ADMITTEDLY "BUYING AND CONSIGNING"? WHY HASN'T MR. TAYLOR MORE PUBLICLY DISCLOSED THE FACT THAT HE IS AN EMPLOYEE OF COACH'S CORNER, AND THEREFORE HAS A VESTED INTEREST IN THE PERFORMANCE OF THAT AUTION HOUSE? IS MR. TAYLOR AN AUCTION HOUSE EMPLOYEE, AN INDEPENDENT AUTHENTICATOR, BOTH..OR NEITHER? Mr. Taylor, I'm sure thousands of card collectors out there are proud of, and thankful for the efforts you have made over your many years in the business to promote this hobby that you and they love so much. Nobody can dispute the contributions you have made. However, you must be aware that your reputation is being destroyed through your involvement in a field in which it is clear you are not qualified to practice. So that your legacy is not further diminished, we urge you to return to the field you know best and leave the authentication of autographs to those with the knowledge and experience to practice it.

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02-25-2008, 05:28 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosSC - You are absolutely correct. Not one authenticator that I know of offers any kind of insurance ("errors and omissions"), which would cost a fortune. You have to depend on authenticators who are the best in their field, and not some of the hacks that have been discussed on this board. Believe it or not, competent authenticators have a very,very low error rate (or they wouldn't be in business!),

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02-25-2008, 05:34 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI for one have long stated that authenticators, professional card graders, and anyone else who's opinion regarding authenticity affects the market should no longer be in the business of buying and selling memorabilia. I don't give a hoot if they disclose that they are the consignor of an item that they authenticated, it's simply unacceptable. I know there are differing opinions on this subject.

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02-25-2008, 05:35 AM

Posted By: barrysloate700!!!

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02-25-2008, 06:00 AM

Posted By: Richard SimonAs Shelly said above in reference to STAT: "Let me ask the two of you this question. When did you become expert witness? What state are qualified in and when did you last testify." They are throwing around the term expert witness like its a baseball. I would be very surprised to find out that a judge declared them an expert witness in autographs and I and probably Shelly would apologize to them for questioning this part of their BS, if they only would come on the forum and prove to everyone that they have the qualifications to be declared expert witnesses. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-25-2008, 08:05 AM

Posted By: DDJust another example of padding a resume with something that would be difficult to disprove. They are experts at deceiving people; nothing more. Taylor has worked for Fleer and Scoreboard. Is it a coincidence that both are now out of business? C'mon Ted, that's an insulting remark. Take the bait and get on here.

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02-25-2008, 10:09 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeI understand that all authenticators say "its their opinion". The difference between a legit authenticator and STAT is percentages. If you look at the CC auction I would be willing to bet that they are 90 percent wrong and that is being nice. If you look at a Mastro auction the authenticators are 90 percent correct and that is the low side. Let Lee at CC do the authenticating, he can see a good item from 14 miles away. Morales and STAT can stop authenticating and count how much money they have cost people. That should keep them busy for many, many months. Barry if you where sent an item that you might see once in your lifetime but now you see it every month as an auction house or an authenticator. Would you not be a wee bit suspicious. This goes on month after month with CC. Josh Gibson autograph pants,balls, and jersey, Chesbro ball, Gehrig jersey,bat,balls, I would think if you had a half a brain you would know something is wrong. So yes it is there opinion but if you have no knowledge of what you are doing and opinion means nothing. Here is the statement from CC in regards to legit authenticators.This is from a question asked in SCD In a not too long ago issue of SCD, (about two weeks ago), an article written about a Coaches Corner Auctions ofSouderton, PA boasted about a $3400 Perez Steel Lloyd Waner sig selling. While reading about Coach's Corner current auction (ended 11/9/7), I noticed that they were auctioning off several more Perez Steele Post Cards. As separate pieces, they offered some of the toughest pieces that collectors could hope to get their hands on, all in one auction. The list includes Ruffing, Coveleski, Greenberg, Alston, Ashburn, Puckett, and 2, count them 2 Waners. I was excited to say the least when I registered on line and posted high bids for each piece. After looking a little more carefully at the pieces, and after the excitement died down a bit, I noticed that none of these elite pieces came with a COA. After contacting Coach's Corner, and asking them about their return policy in the event I had these graded and they came back fake, Kristen informed me of the following: John, we take any returns for authenticity on un-certified items if they are returnd within 21 days after the auction date. Regarding PSA and Jimmy Spence, we are personally not supportive of them as authenticators. We find that they continually reject items that are deemed authentic by other more highly qualified authenticators and they seem to always pass items from other auction companies that they work for, but reject similar items from other auction companies that don't hire them to authenticate their auctions(like Coach's Corner!). That being said, you can use them and return the items within the return period if you like if they fail, but it may be a waste of your time(and money) and ours. Thank you. Kristin Whitten Senior Operations Consultant Coach's Corner Sports Auctions, LLC 215-721-9162

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02-25-2008, 11:25 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeA point I would like to make about Mr. Morales web page. He says on his web page that - On January 17, 2006 HBO Real Sports aired a story on forgeries in the memorabilia business. Prior to the show I was asked if I would provide opinion based on photos of alleged forgeries. In accord with good business practices and the fact that absent examination of actual items no one can give an informed opinion that can be presented in Court, I declined that invitation. My understanding was that everybody was sent five items and nobody was offered pictures of items. The authenticators were tested with real items. I don't believe they ever were going to use pictures. Yet Morales says they did. The producer of the show, Andrew Bennett, would be happy to back up my statement here and any other statements I make about the HBO show. The main truth is Morales was sent five forged items and he said they were all authentic. Morales was one of two authenticators who could not get one item correctly.

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02-25-2008, 11:48 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI think this whole thing with CC is shameful and a stain on our hobby, but I think SCD is hanging on by a hair. If they stopped taking advertising revenue from them, that would officially close them down.

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02-25-2008, 11:57 AM

Posted By: PhilNapIn one of their recent SCD ads, STAT focused on the liquidation side of their business, boasting 'WE DO LIQUIDATIONS'. Then on Coach's website you can find a testimonial from STAT's own Ted Taylor wherein he states: 'They are my number one choice for buying and consigning.' Ok now, a show of hands . . . . Who wants Ted to liquidate their collection through his NUMBER ONE choice for consigning? C'mon now don't be shy. Where else can you hope to realize pennies on the dollar for some of your most prized possessions. I'm sure some of you have a cache of Jack Chesbro and Josh Gibson signatures you are ready to part with. And, if for no other reason, I would love for Ted to come on this forum to show us some of the items in his collection which were purchased from his NUMBER ONE choice for buying. C'mon Ted, show us if you put your money where your mouth is and actually buy any of this garbage that you seem to have such favorable 'opinions' of.

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02-25-2008, 12:40 PM

Posted By: DDI challenge CC/Morales/STAT to put any of their forged items on eBay and to not mention it is authenticated by anyone. Within hours, they will have at least 5-10 people either e-mailing them or eBay that it is a fake. If they do not want to rely on other authenticators, fine. Let them rely on the people they peddle their garbage to to tell them they are fakes. As long as they have their mailing list, they will always sell fakes. Even if SCD went out of business, they would probably be OK as their overhead is next to nothing. We need to continue this assault on them from all angles until they are out for good.

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02-25-2008, 05:42 PM

Posted By: Bill Panagopulos OPEN LETTER TO CHRISTOPHER L. MORALES: Mr. Morales, I have now assembled a forum of no less than eight of your peers in the autograph authentication trade, as well as two certified Questioned Document Examiners to meet with you in a public discussion as set forth below: FIFTH REQUEST: Mr. Morales: Your website states, verbatim: QUOTE "An Open Challenge As noted herein, I will meet anyone in a public forum to review and assess my work efforts. Since private communications are often cherry picked to bolster a point of view, at times misdirecting the facts, it is my position that any meetings and communications be conduct in the open. If anyone desires to contact me concerning an open forum, please do not hesitate to call, email or otherwise contact me at anytime". UNQUOTE Mr. Morales, I hereby challenge you to appear, before a group of your peers in the autograph authentication trade and certified Questioned Document Examiners, before the international press, to: a.) Discuss your "forensic" methods of authentication, and your education and qualifications, using exemplars or otherwise; b.) Describe in detail other criteria you used to authenticate the thousands of various autographs for which you have issued certificates; c.) explain your relationships, if any, with the various consignors, auction houses, galleries, etc. for whom you authenticate, and; d.) assess your work efforts, ie: how have your authentications been received in the autograph market, as a whole. If you wish to limit the discussion to your "work efforts" alone, I would expect your peers would still meet with you, depending on the agenda. I will pay your airfare and hotel room expenses for your attendance at such a forum in the New York area, for a meeting within the next 60 days. As stated above, I expect you would be asked to respond to inquiries from your peers, that is, knowledgeable, recognized dealers of the same material which you have authenticated. Should the location not be convenient for you, I'm sure we can arrange a meeting in Falls Church. Mr. Shelly Jaffe has already graciously agreed to attend, as has Mr. Frank Caiazzo. Will you or will you not accept? If not, under what parameters will you accept (your) challenge? B. Panagopulos Alexander Autographs, Inc. 860 Canal St. Stamford, CT 06902 info@alexautographscom

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02-25-2008, 05:45 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonHow about a bonfire to burn all our old SCD copies? SCD was the enabler for a long time, I doubt if they are even needed much any more. An e mail was sent to a poster on this thread, suggesting who some of the consignors might be to CC. Since this was an anonymous e mail I will not post the names that were listed. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-25-2008, 08:00 PM

Posted By: 1880nonsportsas this is a REALLY REALLY interesting thread. Barry check post 699 <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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02-26-2008, 09:47 AM

Posted By: Alan ElefsonHi- First of all, I would like to thank the participants of this thread for posting such valuable information and for doing their best to clean up our hobby/business. This thread is incredible! Second, this weekend I wandered into a shop called Gallery of Legends found within the Miracle Mile shops attached to the Planet Hollywood Casino (formerly the Aladdin) on the Las Vegas strip (I am visiting my parents who live in Vegas). In this shop were two autographed bats supposedly containing the autographs of 1930s Yankees teams (including Ruth and Gehrig) with a prominent sign stating they were "authenticated" by none other than Christopher Morales. As soon as I saw the sign, my thoughts went right to this thread, and I began to get angry thinking someone will purchase these forgeries unknowingly. Beyond the fact that Morales "authenticated" these items, the Ruth on each looked quite bad to me (although I am not an expert). I realize regular hobbyists would never purchase autographs at a store like this (way overpriced in general), but I was concerned for the general public as well. I immediately spoke with a man behind the counter and told him about Morales and that the Ruths appeared to be fakes. He blew me off (he said I have been doing this since I was 5 years old and I know my autographs - he looked like he was in his late twenties at most). Fruitlessly, I tried explaining the issues with Morales, but again, he blew me off. I then went to the mall security (the mall and the casino are run by two seperate companies) where I spoke to a security supervisor and I wrote out a formal complaint leaving my name, telephone number and address. The security supervisor said that management will definitely contact me and he thanked me for bringing this possible fraud to their attention. The shop's website is www.galleryoflegends.net. I urge any one on this forum to report a store selling possibly fraudulent autographs to anyone who will listen. Unfortunately, I am not an autograph expert, but if I receive a response from security I will contact Richard Simon and/or Shelly Jaffe to see if they can help with their expert opinions. I do not know if the mall's management will act on this, but I hope they do. On a good note, I also visited Field of Dreams on the Strip and spoke with their manager. He uses only good authenticators (Spence, PSA, etc.) and will never touch an item "authenticated" by Morales. He also thanked me for making the complaint as bad autographs adversely affect his business as well. Please note that it is my opinion that the high dollar autographs found in Gallery of Legends are fakes. I base this on the "authenticator" as well as the look of the autographs. This is only my opinion. I encourage all Net 54 readers to "raise a stink" wherever you see these bad autographs. Thanks, Alan Elefson aelefson@hotmail.com

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02-26-2008, 10:10 AM

Posted By: Mark SteinbergAlan/All: This Gallery Of Legends is the very store (Field of Dreams-type) in the Miracle Mile that I was referring to in my above post on February 6 at 1:52 PM. I did not remember the name of the store when I posted, but that is it without question. ALL of their high-end items were bogus.... really bad fakes, as well. The prices were astronomical... high even by Las Vegas standards. And they must be selling quite a lot, in order to pay that high-priced rent. This Gallery of Legends should be drummed out of business ASAP. It just made me sick to actually see this stuff in person... much worse than seeing it on-line! The nearby Field of Dreams store near Smith & Wollensky was indeed legit, as you state. Thanks for your great post!

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02-26-2008, 11:01 AM

Posted By: DJFirst off, it's good to catch up after a weekend away...like coming back from a vacation and having to read a stack of old newspapers. A few points above really should shed some light on the issue at hand and that is the refusal of some of the legitimate sellers to take a stand against the problem at hand. Why sellers I BUY from still advertise in this biased rag is beyond me. You could offer me a lifetime supply of free full page ads, a free subscription for my entire State and a bottomless supply of Vitamin Water and I would still wish not to associate with such a periodical. Just think about this fact. Auction companies want to advertise themselves and insure that a little old lady with an attic full of used sporting goods (who was related in someways to a posed sporting gent on an old photo) may in fact have some treasures. You think that little old lady reads Sports Collector's Digest? Who even carries that anymore? Auction houses have to set up at airport hotels and advertise their presence and do shows like the National to talk to the public. Do you think they want to do all this stuff? All this cuts into their bottom line, but they realize it is a necessary part of the business. How does Coach's get Roger Connor signed memorabilia where others don't? Will they be at the big Philly show right in there back yard this week? I'll see. How about a STAT booth? How about Morales and his microscope? They weren't at the National, but Mastro, Lelands, Clean Sweep, Hunt, PSA/DNA and Jimmy Spence were. I came up with a good acronym over the weekend for STAT. STop Authenticating Ted. Thank you, DJ

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02-26-2008, 11:03 AM

Posted By: CS BolayHmm, I checked out this Gallery of Legends of site. Didn't have a lot of stuff online, but I did notice one interesting item. Took a peek at the 'Authenticity' link (hotlinked term 'forensic examiners') <a href="http://www.galleryoflegends.net/Authenticity.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.galleryoflegends.net/Authenticity.html</a> ...and was instantly spirited away to the one and only <a href="http://www.frangipaniforensics.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.frangipaniforensics.com/</a> ~and on the matter of SCD, my subscription ran out last year, partially due to the Coaches Corner issue, but also because of their pathetic 'see no evil' jounalistic/editorial stance towards so many of their big advertisers, incl. PSA/DNA. It is an utterly worthless periodical. I wish I could see SCD in the dock with the Coaches boys someday, but I suppose it may not be legally workable (I'm no lawyer as so many other members seem to be). Back to lurk mode now, carry on...

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02-26-2008, 11:14 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosIf Gallery of History has all of this terrific material, why don't they picture any of it on their website? And Frangipani as an authenticator? They should at LEAST use Mr. Morales or STAT.

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02-26-2008, 11:26 AM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonBill - Gallery of Legends , not Gallery of History,,, big difference, though not in pricing. - Who is left advertising in SCD on a regular basis ? -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-26-2008, 11:33 AM

Posted By: shelly jaffeI just hung up the phone with the gallery. I asked them if they had any idea where their items came from. The reply was no we don't. we depend on the authenticator to tell us if is authentic or not. No idea where a Babe Ruth bat came from!

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02-26-2008, 03:10 PM

Posted By: Richard S. SimonAn eye opening anonymous e mail is being sent to some posters on this thread. It alleges that certain people are suppliers of CC autographs. Since the writer declines to offer any proof I will not print the people he names. If anybody else on this thread gets such an e mail, please forward it to me. I am curious to see how many people will be sent this e mail. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-27-2008, 10:54 AM

Posted By: Mark EvansI have an uneasy feeling that I own a bogus Mantle baseball. The ball is a 1981 WS ball and was purchased some years ago before public disclosure of Operation Bullpen from a company in Knoxville, Tennessee called Wall of Fame. This company was implicated in Operation Bullpen but avoided prosecution by cooperating with law enforcement authorities. I don't know how to post a scan. The autograph looks good to my untrained eye but I strongly suspect it is a Greg Marino special. Any thoughts from Board experts -- Richard, Shelly, Barry, others? Finally, assuming autograph is bogus, I would be interested in replacing the ball in my collection. Is there any way to ensure authenticity of a Mantle ball without paying UDA prices ($600+)? Is buying a Bobby Brown ball assurance of authenticity or are some of these Mantle balls forgeries as well? Thanks alot. Mark

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02-27-2008, 11:31 AM

Posted By: J LevineIt disturbs me that Mr. Morales has not come back on to take the challenge. What disturbs me more is that the Secret Service or any other government agency has not stepped in to stop this. Plain and simple, this is fraud. Mr. Morales and STAT are helping companies sell forged or faked items. If I were to start selling fake rolex watches on my website or on ebay and I got some bloke to "authenticate" them, I would be in jail rather quickly as would the "authenticator." I see no difference. It pains me that Coach's Corner is allowed to stay in business. It pains me more that Mr. Morales who was supposed to be a trusted government official can actually justify ripping off the American Public. Isn't there more we can do to force these people to stop? Joshua Levine

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02-27-2008, 12:18 PM

Posted By: Richard SimonMark Evans - Shelly would be the one to know about Wall of Fame and he knows Mantle/Marino signatures better than anyone. I suggest you e mail him a digital pic of your ball if you cannot post it here. It is not difficult to post here, click Insert Object. Then click temp files, click upload, click browse, find the file on your hard drive, click on the file and open, click upload, then finally click insert link. Bobby Brown baseballs are absolutely not any assurance of legit Mantle sigs. You just have to find a trustworthy dealer and pay the going rate, which I do think is $500-600. Don't look for bargains in autographs, that is how all this crap still thrives. -- I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Unknown author -- We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember. No retreat baby, no surrender. The Boss

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02-27-2008, 01:30 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosJosh - The reasons "nothing is being done" are multiple: a.) After setting forth their extensive "qualifications, all of these authenticators qualify their qualifications (!)by stating in some form or another, that their statements are "opinions", not guarantees. So, you simply cannot jail someone for being incredibly stupid or inept. But, if the trend shows utter incompetence, those who have purchased bad material do have recourse in civil court. Sellers of bad material oftem get around that by offering full or partial refunds to particulalry noisy customers, knowing that lawsuits are very expensive for customers to commence. b.) Many auction houses rely on the authenticator's certification, and will not offer refunds on goods so-authenticated. In those cases, bidders must be wary and make sure that the authenticators used by the house are competent and reputable. c.) Federal action is difficult to invoke, and slow in operation. That does not mean that they will not jump on a case if it shows widespread, interstate fraud on a say, $250,000+ scale. Experience proves that the more press covering a scandal, the more likely the Feds will jump in to investigate. So...as I stated above - contact the press, anyone you know, who might cover the story. Feel free to ask for experts here. There are plenty of assets available to provide statements and testimony. Also, feel free to complain to Attorneys General of various states, such as Pennsylvania, Virginia, your own state, and wherever bad material is sold.

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02-27-2008, 01:36 PM

Posted By: J. McMurryShelly shed some light on the "wall of fame" company. This is what I remember, there were TWO companies, one called Wall of Fame in Knoxville, and one called WALLS of Fame(not sure on location) I believe the 2nd co. WALLS was named in OP Bullpen. Wall of fame in knoxville was bought out by Schwartz sports(around 2001?),which I believe to be a legit company, Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. That being said, thats still no proof your MM ball is real.

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02-27-2008, 01:59 PM

Posted By: CS BolayOne thing I have thought about in regard to Morales/ Frangipani (and again, I must stress I am a complete legal ignoramus, so don't laugh at me <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ) is their use as witnesses in court cases. Considering their shaky history in the autograph field, is it possible that defense lawyers could start using all their questionable 'forensic authentications' against them, or even to attempt to have convictions or testimony thrown out? I mean, if you mess up Babe Ruth a zillion times, how could render an opinion on Joe Schmo? Secondly, one thing that really drives me nuts is the increasing influence of the 'big acroynms' in the autograph world, PSA/GAI/STAT or whatever. Half of the guys there in said companies I've barely heard of, and some of the others certainly wouldn't be my first choice in their fields. But so many people act as if their opinions are oh-so-infallible, just because they have big advertising budgets or because Poodlydoop Auctions from SCD or Beckett uses them. I'd take the opinion of experienced, longtime dealers like Rich, Bill, Ron Gordon, James Lowe, Bill Ecker or Joyce Muns over Alphabet Soup anyday. But how many casual autograph collectors have ever heard of them? And how many would purchase from them before they would the same item with a fancy acronym stamped on it? Very few, I suspect, and that's unfortunate, one of the great tragedies in the current-day autograph hobby. The willingness of many collectors to blindly rely on forensic bigshots or big-money Alphabet Soup companies has lead to many of the same problems we are discussing in this thread.

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02-27-2008, 02:27 PM

Posted By: DDI was tempted to post this in the thread started by Don Fluckinger, but didn't want to hijack it, even though his questioned has been answered. The SCD site, <a href="http://standardcatalog.wordpress.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://standardcatalog.wordpress.com</a>, has articles, blogs, links, and advertising. I clicked on the auction block blog and of course Coaches Corner advertises on that page. Just above that ad, are links for eBay, PSA, Mears, Spence, etc? Why is is that STAT and Morales links are not listed? The authenticators for their biggest advertiser, and they do not have a free link for their customers. Does SCD by effect, endorse those companies, but not STAT and Morales? Is it an oversight that will be corrected? Or is it common sense and subtle distancing on their part?

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02-27-2008, 02:47 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeThe only Wall of Fame I knew about was on the East Coast. Marino used to joke around and call them Wall of Shame. They bought hundreds of Marino autographs but were never prosecuted. They also bought from other forgers. World Series baseballs are loved by the forgers. Anaconda is still producing them today. They are not selling old stock, they are still printing these balls. WS balls from 1972 and up, with the favorites being 1978,1979, 1981 and 1994. These baseballs appear to be old balls to the collector but they are not. Paige and Munston are the two favorite forgeries on these balls. Bobby Brown baseballs are no asurance that the ball could be authentic. Wayne Bray used to pay $100 apiece for Brown balls when he had a hard time getting them. Finally, Bill is absolutely right. Contact who you can, send this thread to who you can. Law enforcement, newspapers, any contacts you guys have. Especially those of you out there who have been burnt by these people. If you have bought a crap piece, go pursue legal action. Contact local authorities.

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02-28-2008, 03:16 PM

Posted By: MikeDoes anyone have any information "good or bad" concerning "Ashland Hills Gallery" ? I bought an autographed Beatles item a couple of years ago which came with their COA. I was wondering about the odds of this one being real. Thanks any input appreciated. Mike

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02-28-2008, 03:17 PM

Posted By: MikeDoes anyone have any information "good or bad" concerning "Ashland Hills Gallery" ? I bought an autographed Beatles item a couple of years ago which came with their COA. I was wondering about the odds of this one being real. Thanks any input appreciated. Mike

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02-29-2008, 03:40 PM

Posted By: Sean CI keep thinking to myself "How do they live with themselves..."

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02-29-2008, 07:13 PM

Posted By: MarkThe same way any thief or criminal lives with themselves, I suppose. It really isn't much different than traditional shoplifting or stealing.... The only fundamental difference is that they are being "enabled" by repeat customers who are either completely uneducated or too blind to know better. I equate it most closely to an auto mechanic who takes advantage of single women or a scam artist selling unnecessary products/services to the elderly. I think it is tougher to prosecute those slimeballs as well.

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03-01-2008, 01:35 AM

Posted By: KenThe one question I've always wanted to ask Mr. Morales is, to me, the most obvious: What percentage of items you view for Coach's Corner do you FAIL?

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03-01-2008, 05:22 AM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosLast chance to bid in Coach's Corner auction, closing TODAY! Amazing bargains, showing present bid and market value, include: DIMAGGIO/MONROE SIGNED BASEBALL $774 $10,000+ (MORALES CERT.) RUTH AND GEHRIG CUT SIGS. $882 $3000+ (STAT CERT.) BEATLES SIGNED "ABBEY ROAD" $767 $60,000+ (STAT CERT.) PICASSO ORIGINAL ARTWORK $767 $100,000 OR SO! GEORGE WASHINGTON SIGNATURE $356 $6000 (MORALES CERT) Get out your checkbooks, buy these gems and send'em to any legitimate auction house. You'll make a bundle...but don't forget those certificates!

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03-03-2008, 08:26 PM

Posted By: KenWow!! Well over 700 posts, and I jump in and make a comment and the whole thing ends!! Kinda reminds me of my high school dating life. Ken

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03-03-2008, 11:12 PM

Posted By: MarkKen... Since that made me chuckle, I will add a post (as if this thread really needs it...) I did not want it to end with that hard luck story. Also just wanted to see if any board members won something in the recently concluded Coach's Corner Auction... Did we all get shut out on this one, or are we just saving our funds for REA? Bad joke, I know <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-04-2008, 04:39 PM

Posted By: Gene PalmerI'll jump in here just to thank Leon for the "bottom of page" link. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-04-2008, 10:03 PM

Posted By: Anonymous...and nice prices too! Some of my faves below. Have fun! March auction should be up shortly! Lot #8 Lou Gehrig Autographed/CERTIFIED Baseball. "...The autograph grades a legible 6 overall and is ideal for display and fully certified "authentic" by expert examiner Christopher Morales. Valued at over $25,000." Sold for $3,611 Lot #10 Mel Ott Autographed/Certified Baseball. "...RARE signature grades a solid 6.5 overall. Perfect for display and valued at well over $15,000." Sold for $2,315. Lot #12 Jimmie Foxx Autographed/Certified Baseball. "...BEGS to be shown off proudly. Certified authentic by forensic expert Chris Morales and book value is well into the 5-figures." Sold for $2,917. Lot #13 "The Beatles" band signed/custom framed "STAT" LP album!!! "...all four "STAT" certified signatures rate clean 9's or better! This is a true collector's piece of history that will retail for as much as $10,000!!!" Sold for $1,078. Lot #22 Babe Ruth Autographed/CERTIFIED Vintage H&B Baseball Bat!! "...Super-rare gem and it shows off nicely and comes with a COA from former Secret Service forensic authenticator Christopher Morales. Scarcely-seen Ruth signature on a bat!" Sold for $2,907. Lot #25 Jimmy Collins Autographed/Stat Authentic Certified Softball. "...legible 5.5-6 overall and shows off nicely. Fully certified by STAT AUTHENTIC and valued into the 5 figures!!" Sold for $1,079. #42 Josh Gibson hand signed/CERTIFIED vintage pair of baseball pants! "...signed on the inside waistband by this seldom-seen HOFer in black ink. The signature is legible and grades a solid 6.5 overall! It comes with a COA from forensic expert Chris Morales and is a truly super item that's value is off the charts due to rarity!" Sold for $390. Lot #155 Walter Johnson Autographed-Stat Authentic Certified Softball. "...Great chance for a RARE & valuable ball at a discount & fully certified authentic by the experts at STAT." Sold for $290. Lot #159 Lou Gehrig Yankees hand signed "Baseball". "...rubberball...We'll start the bidding very low and let you decide how much it's worth." Sold for $301. Lot #401 Cy Young hand signed vintage BB cap. "...decent 5 or so. Neat display item from Cy Young and valued at ??" Sold for $159. Lot #730 Candy Cummings Autographed Matted & Framed Stat Authentic Certified Photo-Display. "...Fully certified "authentic' by the professionals at Stat Authentic and nice!" Sold for $221. Lot #758 1934 TOUR OF JAPAN Autographed/Stat Authentic Certified Cut. "...Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Connie Mack, J.Foxx, C.Gehringer, M.Berg,etc.!!!! The signatures grade legible 7's overall and this amazing piece of baseball memorabilia is ideal for matting/framing and comes with a COA from the hobby experts at Stat Authentic for authenticity purposes. Valued at over $10,000 and NICE!" Sold for $1,842. Lot #792 1894 Colts Baseball Club TEAM-SIGNED Cut with CAP ANSON-Certified by Stat Authentic. "...The Anson & Griffith signatures are authenticated & certified by STAT AUTHENTIC, while the others are so old there are no suitable exemplars out there! Valued into the thousands." Sold for $610 lot #795 George Wright Autographed Cut with Hall of Fame Exhibit Card! "...LONG-DECEASED baseball hero. VERY RARE signature and it grades a 5.5 overall. Fully certified authentic by Stat Authentic and valued into the low thousands." Sold for $300. Lot #827 Lou Gehrig Yankees hand signed "Stat Authentic" magazine photo-page. ".... It comes pre-certified as real by Stat Authentic and value is near $1800.00 I'll guess on the probable, one of a kind Yankee/Gehrig piece." Sold for $250. Lot #893 "The Beatles" BAND-SIGNED/STAT AUTHENTIC CERTIFIED Album! "...with Paul even including "all the best!" with his signature! Fully certified authentic by the pro's at STAT and valued into the thousands." Sold for $735. lot #952 The "Beatles" hand signed/custom framed & CERTIFIED photo!! "... certified as real by Jeff & Ted at Stat Authentic and is valued in the $3000.00 range as a solid rock n' roll investment and collectible." Sold for $684.

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03-05-2008, 08:23 PM

Posted By: Bill PanagopulosWhat a disgusting, insulting disgrace to our collecting fraternity. My friends who collect baseball, your stuff is now worthless. Why? These guys are flooding the market, day after day, with worthless frauds that sooner or later will dupe more and more innocents into buying them. As a result, the legitimate, authentic autographs, cards, relics, photos, pins, banners, etc, you've bought will be reduced to the same value as the worthless crap being peddled by crooked auctioneers and dealers - yes, just as worthless as the junk these guys are foisting on the public because the average guy simply won't know the difference. As long as everybody sits back and says: "Well..MY stuff is real, so I have nothing to worry about...", they WILL have something to worry about! Don't get too comfortable. Just today, some crook offered a good customer of mine several utterly worthless historic autographs that they swore would be passed by either Morales, STAT or some other so-called authenticator. They weren't baseball or rock autographs, but important historic Americana. And only NOW did this guy realize what a hazard his own collecting interest was facing. He told me: "I don't give a sh_t about rock, but when these guys start messing with historic autographs, we have a problem". I told him to "wake the f up". Get the picture? Baseball is ruined. Rock is well on its way, and only a slew of federal indictments can fix it (and they just might...). But the problem is swelling, it's a cancer and needs to be addressed immediately with every asset available, before it spreads wholesale to other fields of autographs, and... ...cards...banners...pins...photos...relics...unif orms...coins...stamps...etc....etc...etc...

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03-05-2008, 11:59 PM

Posted By: Sean C<img src="http://www.myccsa.com/pics/177/76664.jpg"> I'd really love an explanation from Mr. Morales about this item.

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03-06-2008, 10:55 PM

Posted By: CS BolayA modest little auction house in Philly stumbles upon a mysterious otherwordly portal, out of which flows a seemingly unlimited supply of Beatles multi-signed albums, presidential cuts, 19th-Century Hall of Famers and GEM 10 graded rookies. All are featured within the pages of the 'Voice for the Hobby' itself at miraculously low starting bids. Meanwhile, the Big Man at SCD spends his time blogging about his fascinating experiences with cockfighting. <a href="http://infielddirt.sportscollectorsdigest.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://infielddirt.sportscollectorsdigest.com/</a> Can this hobby get any more insane?

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03-07-2008, 07:08 AM

Posted By: J. McMurryBottom line is, MONEY RUINS EVERYTHING. There's always gonna be certain people out there whose brains are wired toward fraud and cheating whenever they see there's MONEY to be made. I believe historical forgeries are already a problem. CC offers them. I wonder how many Cosey Lincoln fakes are circulating that have been authenticated due to their age? I wonder how many Marino Mantle fakes will be in circulation 40 years from now?

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03-07-2008, 10:03 AM

Posted By: BobWhile I usually check the Forum usually on a weekly basis, I'm sad to see this thread die and it seems like motivation to do something on a public level has died down a little. I am disappointed. I will say I do love those pantaloons! Money does ruin everything, but that's partially why we collect. The ordinary and worthless is often just that. We could collect new bottle caps. But there are things that have implied value that certainly isn't the case and of course I must bring up the fact that unscathed, Coach's returns with basically the same inventory as last month. Multiples of high grade single signed baseballs of any Hall Of Famers you can mention. Foxx, Young, Ott, Ruth, Gehrig, a Comiskey Softball, a Honus Wagner with provenance proving it was signed (lol), a 1948 type written and signed Babe Ruth letter just before he passed, a Gehrig signed softball and multiple complete Beatles signed albums. And for our history dealer, all the early Presidents and multiple Einstein items that will keep you frustrated. Looking back at this thread, was this even a speed bump? Was anything accomplished? RS

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03-07-2008, 03:49 PM

Posted By: MikeCheck out the Next Coach's Corner auction. Item # 1. A signed Beatles album, signed by all 4 . But get this, it's on the cover of the famous "Butcher Cover" and comes with a "STAT" certificate. How can these people sleep at night ?

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03-07-2008, 05:31 PM

Posted By: shelly jaffeTo answer Bob's post I think a lot has been accomplished. This thread has gotten a lot of publicity, links to it have been posted on other forums and I think that this thread has alerted many people about what is going on. The press has gotten interested, the law has gotten interested and things will be happening. The crap has gone on for too long and this has been a step towards stopping it. More will happen.

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03-09-2008, 12:52 PM

Posted By: DDOnce again, Rob Lifson shows why he is not only the premiere vintage baseball auction house, but he is a force in this hobby/business, and is willing to put his money where his mouth is. First, he is the only auction house to endorse the MEARS policy. Even though it is a little extreme, Rob knows he has nothing to worry about. Now, there is also a link to this thread on his web site, along with him mentioning authentication issues in an interview. Thanks Rob, for being a stand-up guy and helping this effort.

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04-01-2008, 10:57 AM

Posted By: don fluckingerFact-check: We have zero advertising on the standard catalog blog at <a href="http://standardcatalog.wordpress.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://standardcatalog.wordpress.com</a>. Oh wait, we have "buy the Standard Catalog" ads! Some of the links you can click in the blogroll do have advertising, but that's not an endorsement or lack of endorsement on the part of SCD, me, or the book publishing arm of F+W, who we all report to. I'm not a part of other blogs' advertising decisions, and I really don't want to be.

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04-01-2008, 12:08 PM

Posted By: DDDon, Matter of fact - SCD had ads for Coach's Corner on their site, whether it was linked from your blog or not. Bottom line is they appear to have removed them. Of course, their auction ads in the print world still appear. Nice compromise by the powers of be at Krause. If you get the hard copy you can still be ripped off by their biggest advertiser. It seems like they are starting to cut the cord. Now they need to let the albatross around their necks go completely. Mr. Mint may be unscrupulous in his pursuit of material, but at least he buys and sells genuine items. Don, you are obviously innocent in these decision by Krause. However, it was nice of you to respond to that comment about CC advertising on the SCD site after their ads were removed, 5 weeks after the comment was posted.

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04-14-2008, 09:25 PM

Posted By: DDxtremecollectibles.com. The latest? in Chris Morales supporters. <a href="http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/clt/642594539.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/clt/642594539.html</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/clt/642594539.html</a</a>> <a href="http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/clt/642778657.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/clt/642778657.html</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/clt/642778657.html</a</a>> And if, if you go to their auctions, it leads to the Coaches Corner web site. <a href="http://www.xtremecollectibles.com/christopher-l-morales.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.xtremecollectibles.com/christopher-l-morales.html</a>

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04-14-2008, 09:55 PM

Posted By: CS BolayInteresting find, David...is this guy formally associated with CCSA or could he be one of the mysterious consigners of their 'miraculous' finds? Compare <a href="http://www.xtremecollectibles.com/mimaromayaha.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.xtremecollectibles.com/mimaromayaha.html</a> <a href="http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=89297" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.myccsa.com/Lot.aspx?LotID=89297</a> Fascinating... His presidential balls are among the worst forgeries I have ever seen...check out the last two rows <a href="http://www.xtremecollectibles.com/presidential.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.xtremecollectibles.com/presidential.html</a> _________________________________ ~~Another forensic goofball for the record (apologize if he has been mentioned) <a href="http://www.aasportscollectibles.com/cobbball.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.aasportscollectibles.com/cobbball.htm</a> <a href="http://www.aasportscollectibles.com/mathewsonjohnsonphoto.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.aasportscollectibles.com/mathewsonjohnsonphoto.htm</a>

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04-14-2008, 11:01 PM

Posted By: MarkDavid... Many thanks for uncovering yet another criminal outfit. Did you see on the Xtreme Collectibles Website, that the only "sold" item is that common 500 HR Hitters Lithograph (which was the only piece carrying a PSA Cert.) Everything else pictured on their site is so fake it's ridiculous. Check out that Clemente signed ball for a good laugh! Edited to say I took one more peek... The Cy Young and Mathewson Balls are even better.